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I think causes that don't quite map up to an alignment or don't have to be a singular alignment could be an interesting expansion to the champion class. So i.e you could pick a good Tennant but then let's say there is an option that could cater to neutral or chaotic, or neutral and lawful.
A stars related druid archetype.
A more magical hunt prey could be interesting, something that boosts a spell attack or spell dc and perhaps that comes with a host of new warden spells? This may work wonky with the fact that animal companions can benefit from your hunt prey stuff.
A genie or elemental eidolon would be cool.
I would love to see a whimsy phantom summoner since that was one of my favorite spiritualist phantoms.
A Bard that could maybe have feats that let you poach spells from other traditions but bards are already pretty versatile so that might be too strong.
An investigator methodology that maybe boosts the aid action or has cool interactions with that.
Verdant bloodline for sorcerer . Maybe. Aplant themed barbarian subclass as well but that's o ly if we don't get the bloodrager class because I think that theme is more fitting there.
And more that I can't think of right now
Maybe. Aplant themed barbarian subclass as well but that's o ly if we don't get the bloodrager class because I think that theme is more fitting there.
I had a sudden image of a COnrasu acting out the Ent attack on Sauraman’s tower.
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Not a subclass and more of a potential class archetype, but for the Oracle, I want a style that mimics the curse advancement in the playtest while still interacting with the focus point mechanic.
Something along the lines of revelation spells only requiring you to advance your curse; no focus point cost. BUT, if you do use a focus point to cast a revelation spell, it doesn’t advance the curse. With how much fun a bunch of the Oracle focus spells are, I want style where they aren’t constricted by the curse rules. I don’t know what it should take away from the Oracle though, but with how curses are already, I’m all-in for more punishing penalties for more bolstering boons.
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A stars related druid archetype.
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ohohohoho yeeees. I can see that going very tentacly very fast, love the idea
Neutral champions first and foremost. Their absence makes absolutely zero sense. Doubly so for Champions of Neutral deities.Got a pitch for True Neutral and CN?
When I think True Neutral Champion I think of Peacemaker from Suicide Squad. Peace at all cost not matter what it takes.
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When I think True Neutral Champion I think of Peacemaker from Suicide Squad. Peace at all cost not matter what it takes.Neutral champions first and foremost. Their absence makes absolutely zero sense. Doubly so for Champions of Neutral deities.Got a pitch for True Neutral and CN?
That's LN.
Feel like an N champion would have to have fairly vague tenants that mostly involve focusing on your area of interest... anathema against doing things that are especially bad unless it furthers your agenda or something like that.
Most N deities tend to be pretty different and there isn't a common thread between them, so the focus would have to be on whatever deity you are a champion of, rather than Cause itself.
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Oh, can we /please/ get the body horror Alchemist back.
I absolutely agree with this... but it's mroe than a class path. You can tell, because "mutagenicist" is that class path, and it's not nearly enough. You'd need something like a really robust class archetype to make it roll.
I'd love to see it a sort of barbarian/alchemist hybrid mutagen warrior that would at least be similar, but it doesn't really work as a barbarian class path either, because Barbarian class paths are wrapped pretty hard around what your rage does - there's not enough space to give them any alchemical ability on top of that.
I think I'd see it as a barbarian class archetype, with an associated mandatory instinct. The class archetype cashes in a bit of that barbarian chassis - Hp, maybe? and gets back scaling mutagen-only alchemist abilities, plus access to the mutagen-specific alchemist feats. It also adds the restriction that you're not allowed to rage unless you're under the effects of a mutagen. One of the things the dedication feat at 2 gives you is that you can rage immediately as a free action on drinking one.
It would also have a number of its own feats that required that you be both raging and under the influence of a mutagen... possibly including letting you be affected by multiple mutagens at once?
Not sure what to do with the instinct, other than the fact that its damage boost would be relatively anemic unless you were under the effects of a mutagen, in which case it would be on par with the others.
Another grappling stance would be nice. Gorilla Was a bit of a letdown tbh, with the follow up feat being intimidation based instead of grapple based.
clinging shadows is pretty nice for that, at least. Admittedly, it's not lvl 1, but aside from that issue?
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A swashbuckler who uses one of the magic skills for some supernatural panache could be cool. Might need to invent a skill feat that lets you use those skills in such a way like Bon Mot.
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My preference is for neutral champions to be tied to a specific cause (which is itself neutral) rather than neutrality itself. By extension we can then have good and evil champions who are champions of something other than "good" and "evil."
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Oh, can we /please/ get the body horror Alchemist back.I absolutely agree with this... but it's mroe than a class path. You can tell, because "mutagenicist" is that class path, and it's not nearly enough. You'd need something like a really robust class archetype to make it roll.
Or an entirely new class.
I know I was disappointed by the evolutionist in Starfinder, so much so that I tend to try and forget it exists, but making 85 modifications to your body, with some changing up daily, might get us close.
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My preference is for neutral champions to be tied to a specific cause (which is itself neutral) rather than neutrality itself. By extension we can then have good and evil champions who are champions of something other than "good" and "evil."
I HAVE NO STRONG FEELINGS ONE WAY OR THE OTHER!
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That's LN.When I think True Neutral Champion I think of Peacemaker from Suicide Squad. Peace at all cost not matter what it takes.Neutral champions first and foremost. Their absence makes absolutely zero sense. Doubly so for Champions of Neutral deities.Got a pitch for True Neutral and CN?
Short of devolving this thread to an argument about alignment my argument is that he doesn't have a code other than peace at any cost. He doesn't care about social structures. He'll break everything down if it gets him what he wants. To me he's N. He's just devoted to his ideal.
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Shall I tell your wife you said hello, sir?My preference is for neutral champions to be tied to a specific cause (which is itself neutral) rather than neutrality itself. By extension we can then have good and evil champions who are champions of something other than "good" and "evil."I HAVE NO STRONG FEELINGS ONE WAY OR THE OTHER!
All I know is my gut says "maybe."
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A swashbuckler who uses one of the magic skills for some supernatural panache could be cool. Might need to invent a skill feat that lets you use those skills in such a way like Bon Mot.
It belatedly occurs to me that this might actually happen in Dark Archive. Thaums putting all their skill ups into knowledge skills is going to be A build even if it’s not the only build, combat applications of those skills might be on deck.
We already have a skill feat that allows the use of a cantrip as an innate spell, so it’d be safe enough to assume a similar level of power for other skill feats. Okay, probably not Electric Arc, but perhaps making a square within 30 feat difficult terrain for 1 minute (a la scatter scree)?
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Maybe, but I think I’d like to see combat ones too. Debuff and status effects. Tough, because that’s the realm of alchemist, but I think some effects are possible (that a skill feat likely wouldn’t give scaling effects might help too).
To keep the ball rolling, to explicate one of my things in my initial post, I was sad helmets weren’t an innovation option. Perhaps I was too long an engineer in wow, but having my player with the gigantic goggles and little satellite dish attachment seems appropriate on the inventor. I also see some of the archetypes in G&G, especially the spotter, as possible innovation options for such a helm.
Heck just giving an item bonus to perception would be a good start, as a way to directly buck the “inventors have poor perception” decision without changing the actual proficiencies.
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Feel like an N champion would have to have fairly vague tenants that mostly involve focusing on your area of interest... anathema against doing things that are especially bad unless it furthers your agenda or something like that.
Most N deities tend to be pretty different and there isn't a common thread between them, so the focus would have to be on whatever deity you are a champion of, rather than Cause itself.
Way I see it, the TN cause is put the deity's wishes above everything, do not do Evil acts for the sake of it, but be ready to do anything, including Evil acts, if your service to your deity requires it.
I even imagined the following tenets.
My take on the Neutral tenets :
. You must never perform acts anathema to your deity.
. You must never put your own needs before those of your deity. You must never knowingly harm an innocent unless doing so furthers the goals of your deity.
Taking from both Good and Evil tenets without forbidding aligned acts, and putting your deity's goals above anything else. No need for protecting innocents but also no need for oppressing them. And no talk of "your master" because it smacks too much of Evil.
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I think a stance for Monks which weakens/doesn't improve physical prowess but facilitates more use of ki spells would be a great addition. Might actually get people making use of stance-shifting stuff more often...if you can get far enough into the level curve for them.
Ranger, similarly, could use an Edge focusing on primal traditions and/or magic. Hasn't gotten any new ones.
I don't know how Cleric could get any new doctrines that aren't basically the same as Warpriest or Cloistered with different Lv 1 and 3 features, but if that's all there is, you could perhaps slot in skill stuff to complete the trifecta.
There's a ton of potential for Oracle Mysteries in general. Could get into really esoteric and specific stuff, the way Witch has gotten a few highly specific patrons. (And please hand this poor class a few new feats.)
For a really silly callback, perhaps Fighter could get new feats with bonuses/new ways to use magic items like wands and scrolls, as a callback to the "iron caster" build/idea from PF1E. (That was with Fighter, right? Maybe it varied.) Downside to this is people wondering why other classes don't get those feats, of course.
(Speaking of Fighter, feats for focusing on armor specifically would be a less silly suggestion.)
Rogue could use a truly skill-focused Racket, since they're all combat-focused save Eldritch Trickster to a slight extent (which instead gets...earlier access to two feats, one a combat feat, and by extension a freed up Lv 4 feat).
Oh, and Wizard getting a Thesis which integrates Spell Trickster stuff would be sick :3
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Oh, and Wizard getting a Thesis which integrates Spell Trickster stuff would be sick :3
My god, that would be my forever thesis.
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To keep the ball rolling, to explicate one of my things in my initial post, I was sad helmets weren’t an innovation option. Perhaps I was too long an engineer in wow, but having my player with the gigantic goggles and little satellite dish attachment seems appropriate on the inventor. I also see some of the archetypes in G&G, especially the spotter, as possible innovation options for such a helm.
Heck just giving an item bonus to perception would be a good start, as a way to directly buck the “inventors have poor perception” decision without changing the actual proficiencies.
It doesn't have to stop at a perception bonus either. You can go with seeing in a different spectrum, finding weak spots, or maybe even targeting indirect fire. There's definitely enough to this to build a path around.
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It doesn't have to stop at a perception bonus either. You can go with seeing in a different spectrum, finding weak spots, or maybe even targeting indirect fire. There's definitely enough to this to build a path around.To keep the ball rolling, to explicate one of my things in my initial post, I was sad helmets weren’t an innovation option. Perhaps I was too long an engineer in wow, but having my player with the gigantic goggles and little satellite dish attachment seems appropriate on the inventor. I also see some of the archetypes in G&G, especially the spotter, as possible innovation options for such a helm.
Heck just giving an item bonus to perception would be a good start, as a way to directly buck the “inventors have poor perception” decision without changing the actual proficiencies.
Investigator MC ?
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Investigator MC ?It doesn't have to stop at a perception bonus either. You can go with seeing in a different spectrum, finding weak spots, or maybe even targeting indirect fire. There's definitely enough to this to build a path around.To keep the ball rolling, to explicate one of my things in my initial post, I was sad helmets weren’t an innovation option. Perhaps I was too long an engineer in wow, but having my player with the gigantic goggles and little satellite dish attachment seems appropriate on the inventor. I also see some of the archetypes in G&G, especially the spotter, as possible innovation options for such a helm.
Heck just giving an item bonus to perception would be a good start, as a way to directly buck the “inventors have poor perception” decision without changing the actual proficiencies.
That or the alluded to Overwatch or Sniping Duo archetypes could all work if those fit the particular build you want to go for, but the idea of making it an innovation would be to get these as part of the innovation class feature instead of spending feats on them.
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Hmm...
1) Succor mystery Oracle. Buffs & debuffs, with a bit of healing.
2) Oracle with Haunted curse, except it's actually balanced now.
3) Oracle with mystery decoupled from curse.
4) Dawnflower Dervish Bard.
5) Simple-spell Magus. Gets a lot of low-level utility spells, but can heighten them to increase their potency regardless of heightening rules (to allow, e.g., low-level Incapacitation spells to still be useful at higher levels).
6) An actual gish Bard.
7) A Muscle Wizard, who embues their body with magic to function like a monk. Could be either Wizard or Magus, and has more of a focus on utility than on power; casts with Str instead of Int, so maybe should have caster weapon progression.
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Was messing around with pathbuilder for a while today and it really hit me how few options classes outside the core rulebook have. Some of that is likely because their feats just don't seem as good (feels like witch and oracle have a lot of really underwhelming feats) but also numbers wise they have fewer. I hope they get a mini expansion like the core classes got with APG - maybe we'll get a slow trickle through things like book of the dead I guess. Would just be nice to get a few pages for each non core class, just filling gaps for things they really need.
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I think that non-Alignment Causes for Champions would be really welcome; several friends are bummed that there's no ready analogue for 5e's Oath of the Ancients Paladin, and I think there's a number of codes and creeds the class chassis works for without being so caught up in Alignment.
This also opens the class up to followers of gods for whom the alignment-based options don't make a lot of sense - my options for a Champion of Casandalee are either a Redeemer or a Desecrator at present, which doesn't make a lot of sense, but a Cause related to constructs might fit in nicely. I think a Cause about death and the dead would enable a /lot/ of character concepts, especially for Pharasmins, while a nature-focused option would solve the hole mentioned in the paragraph above. Surely there are Champions of love, or of duty?
Part of me also wants foe-based Causes - those who fight fiends or undead, for instance - but I wonder if that might be design space reserved for Inquisitors, with Champions being pushed towards the defensive in 2e.
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A trickster muse for the bard would be neat.
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Oh, and Wizard getting a Thesis which integrates Spell Trickster stuff would be sick :3My god, that would be my forever thesis.
Honestly, with how many people love this archetype and what it does for casters, I'm starting to think it should have just been part of casters as a whole instead of being an Archetype and costing Class Feats. Sure, there's the sidebar on it, but it feels a bit expensive to afford in a lot of cases despite it offering some really flavorful and awesome stuff.
If all spells came with a "Spell Trick" entry like they do a heightened, that would have been a pretty cool way to handle it.
There's always free-archetype I suppose.
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I'd guess it's likely that part of it is that Cha is always the "weird" stat in the family, and the one that's usually least integrated with core mechanics. Str affects damage & encumbrance, Dex affects defense & saves, Con is HP & saves, Int ties into language & proficiency count, and Wis does initiative & saves, but IIRC, Cha really only does innate casting (which itself is only relevant to some characters). They all have other effects outside of the game's chassis (from things such as, e.g., skills or casting), but Cha in particular tends to get most of its bolstering from the systems bolted on rather than from the game's underlying mechanics themselves.
This leaves Cha the easiest stat to balance a class around, since all classes must assume an 18 in their key stat. Str key classes will have high damage, Dex key will be hard to hit, Con key can tank a ton of damage, Int key is automatically a backup skillmonkey, and Wis key defuses a lot of nasty situations, but Cha key isn't intrinsically better in any one area regardless of class design. This makes it easiest to balance a class around Cha, and also gives them the most room for a higher power level (since the stat itself is on a lower power level than the other five stats).
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I think that non-Alignment Causes for Champions would be really welcome; several friends are bummed that there's no ready analogue for 5e's Oath of the Ancients Paladin, and I think there's a number of codes and creeds the class chassis works for without being so caught up in Alignment.
This also opens the class up to followers of gods for whom the alignment-based options don't make a lot of sense - my options for a Champion of Casandalee are either a Redeemer or a Desecrator at present, which doesn't make a lot of sense, but a Cause related to constructs might fit in nicely. I think a Cause about death and the dead would enable a /lot/ of character concepts, especially for Pharasmins, while a nature-focused option would solve the hole mentioned in the paragraph above. Surely there are Champions of love, or of duty?
Part of me also wants foe-based Causes - those who fight fiends or undead, for instance - but I wonder if that might be design space reserved for Inquisitors, with Champions being pushed towards the defensive in 2e.
Neutral champions who put their deity's cause before everything (except the non-Neutral part of their alignment) would fit the bill perfectly for many such "causes" IMO.
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Some sort of supernatural Methodology for Investigators, for characters less interested in crime and more drawn to occult strangeness. I've heard of a friend of a friend who has a homebrew Methodology that simply grants the Eldritch Researcher archetype for free and that's 90% of the way there for what I want.
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I do miss the Psychic Detective Investigator from PF1. Aside from Occultist that was my favorite class option.
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Some sort of supernatural Methodology for Investigators, for characters less interested in crime and more drawn to occult strangeness. .
I second this path for Investigators
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I'd guess it's likely that part of it is that Cha is always the "weird" stat in the family, and the one that's usually least integrated with core mechanics. Str affects damage & encumbrance, Dex affects defense & saves, Con is HP & saves, Int ties into language & proficiency count, and Wis does initiative & saves, but IIRC, Cha really only does innate casting (which itself is only relevant to some characters). They all have other effects outside of the game's chassis (from things such as, e.g., skills or casting), but Cha in particular tends to get most of its bolstering from the systems bolted on rather than from the game's underlying mechanics themselves.
This leaves Cha the easiest stat to balance a class around, since all classes must assume an 18 in their key stat. Str key classes will have high damage, Dex key will be hard to hit, Con key can tank a ton of damage, Int key is automatically a backup skillmonkey, and Wis key defuses a lot of nasty situations, but Cha key isn't intrinsically better in any one area regardless of class design. This makes it easiest to balance a class around Cha, and also gives them the most room for a higher power level (since the stat itself is on a lower power level than the other five stats).
I'm not the biggest fan of that design direction. I'm worried we'll never see another wisdom class.
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That is a concern, yeah. Even though it's the weakest stat in and of itself, that doesn't mean Cha isn't at risk of becoming OP if they add too many riders to it. It can be surprisingly easy to swing too far in the other direction when you're compensating for something that was designed to be inherently weaker, after all. I'd like to see something that uses Con, and Str or Dex/Wis classes could be fun options in, say, a Tian Xia book (samurai, ninja, all those fun foreign options people tend to gravitate to).
Charisma has the most straightforward combat functionality among the mental stats with demoralize and bon mot both of which will give out penalties to saving throws.
That's true, yeah. That's part of what I meant by "the systems bolted on", though, since it comes from a skill and isn't intrinsic to the Cha ability itself. Charisma's the only stat that doesn't have specific effects tied to the ability itself (as listed on CRB pg.19, and in most other d20 family games), and as a result is the easiest stat to tie mechanical subsystems like skills to.
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Even though it's the weakest stat in and of itself, that doesn't mean Cha isn't at risk of becoming OP if they add too many riders to it. It can be surprisingly easy to swing too far in the other direction when you're compensating for something that was designed to be inherently weaker, after all.
I don't think we're in a position where we'll never see a new wisdom-based class/class path, though there does seem like there may be more hesitancy there than for other ability scores, but I definitely don't think CHA is at risk of becoming OP because of these classes/class paths. Very rarely do the classes or class paths stack in such a way that you can easily be benefiting from multiple ways to take advantage of your CHA - it's the biggest advantage of the new multiclassing system in PF2, I'd say. You can afford to give out big and impactful abilities at level 1 and there's no possibility of dipping to get those boosts for other classes.
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One that I haven't seen suggested yet... for the Bard, make it a whole new Class Archetype instead of just a Muse as I do not think it actually does or should mesh with the other Muses given the nature of the concept (Basically they should feel and act as though they are their OWN Muse) but... the Demagogue is a concept that got some fun and pretty heavy play back when I ran PF1 both in the party as well as for particularly unlikable NPCs that I included as enemies.
Perhaps by losing the Muse features and simply replacing it with its own unique Focus Spell/Pool and bolting on a few spells poached from other Traditions + free advancement in the Deception and Intimidate Skills with complementary features to allow them to treat the use of those two skills as a valid Performance Skill Check for their various Class Abilities would work, just spit-balling though.
EDIT: Since not everyone is familiar, here is the PF1 Archetype in question. It is somewhat like the Celebrity Archetype but with a decidedly nastier and more manipulative tilt to it.
One that I haven't seen suggested yet... for the Bard, make it a whole new Class Archetype instead of just a Muse as I do not think it actually does or should mesh with the other Muses given the nature of the concept (Basically they should feel and act as though they are their OWN Muse) but... the Demagogue is a concept that got some fun and pretty heavy play back when I ran PF1 both in the party as well as for particularly unlikable NPCs that I included as enemies.
Perhaps by losing the Muse features and simply replacing it with its own unique Focus Spell/Pool and bolting on a few spells poached from other Traditions + free advancement in the Deception and Intimidate Skills with complementary features to allow them to treat the use of those two skills as a valid Performance Skill Check for their various Class Abilities would work, just spit-balling though.
That sounds like the Thassalonian Rune-magic/Runelord archetype, and I love that archetype! I don't know anything about this "Demagogue" thing, but I look forward to it if it happens.
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I want an additional stance for monks that allows them to channel the abilities of the giant frog. Higher/longer jumps, and eventually tongue attack with reach/grab.
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I want an additional stance for monks that allows them to channel the abilities of the giant frog. Higher/longer jumps, and eventually tongue attack with reach/grab.
Have you seen Kung Fu Hustle? The final antagonist has an awesome frog-based fighting style.
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I want an additional stance for monks that allows them to channel the abilities of the giant frog. Higher/longer jumps, and eventually tongue attack with reach/grab.Have you seen Kung Fu Hustle? The final antagonist has an awesome frog-based fighting style.
The Toad Style of the Kwan Lun School! I love that movie.
