"Stop roleplaying us out of combats--it's costing us loot!"

[Calybos1]

This was said as a half-serious, half-joking comment in a recent session, to our charismatic bard/priest: "Will you quit trying to talk our way out of these encounters? It's costing us valuable treasure!"

Now, the players generally enjoy the priest's antics as he tries different RP approaches to charm, confuse, distract, barter with, or negotiate through various foes that the party runs into. And of course, the party gets full XP for 'defeating' any given encounter, whether it's through combat, stealth, deception, and so on.

But that's XP... and NOT treasure.

Despite some memorably funny encounter stories, the party is still progressing well in terms of level. But they're way, way behind on actual wealth, because the only way to get wealth is through murder-looting. Let's face it, a level 5 fighter who's accumulated less than 1000gp in the campaign is not going to be as effective as one with the standard murderhobo's bank account.

How do your groups deal with the wealth-by-level issue if/when PCs insist on thinking and talking their way past encounters too often, instead of stabbing and looting?

[Rysky]

By having the GM realize that only giving rewards by murder/looting is bad?

You can find treasure, you can get rewards from people.

This is a GM issue if they’re withholding loot because the party are finding alternative ways to overcome encounters.

[Derklord]

I very, very strongly recommend using Automatic Bonus Progression. It's unbelievable how much better it makes the game. It doesn't remove all combat-relevant items, but the most comman/important ones, meaning PCs are completely competitive even without any loot. And at the same time as it removes the need for loot, it reduces the amount of treasure enemies carry, as their weapons and armors are now non-magical (and they don't have the standard rings, amulets, and cloaks, either). What treasure remains that I want to hand out I can easily put on a few encounters, or to be found elsewhere.

Something else to consider (works with or without ABP) is NPCs giving gifts when the PCs 'win the encounter by talking'. Stuff like "thank you for sparing our lives, here's something for you".

@Rysky: It sounds like the OP did realize it and is trying to fix it, but simply doesn't know how. Your criticism seems rather unhelpful.

[Neriathale]

NPCs offering the party a reward to go and deal with a situation. Make it an item the party actually want rather than a pile of stuff they don’t want but can sell for cash - “because we dealt with the Undead castle the local baron offered us each one item from his treasury”.

Armour/weapons/whatever being empowered by doing rituals in significant places rather than looting a +2 to replace the existing +1. “This sword was consecrated in the ruined temple of Iomedae by all of us performing an ancient rite and is now the bane of undead”.

Set fewer items of treasure, but make them more tailored to the party. The 10th cloak of protection +1 the party loot from a dead orc is just cash, the +1 cloak of protection that also acts as the cavalier’s banner that he retrieves from the ruined home of his ancestors is special.

[SheepishEidolon]

As a GM, for the current campaign I currently track the amount of loot / treasure handed out. It's cumbersome, but it allows me to adapt next session's loot, so they stay quite close to WBL.

So peaceful solutions will delay treasure by a session only.

My players found another solution to get the treasure right now: They allow a boss to retreat, but insist it will leave all its valuables. Of course, such intimidation doesn't always work, but it's an option.

[Belafon]

Pathfinder Society had what was called the "Creative Solutions" clause.

Quote:

Sometimes during the course of a scenario, your players might surprise you with a creative solution to an encounter (or the entire scenario) that you didn’t see coming and that isn’t expressly covered in the scenario. If, for example, your players manage to roleplay their way through a combat and successfully accomplish the goal of that encounter without killing the antagonist, give the PCs the same reward they would have gained had they defeated their opponent in combat. If that scene specifically calls for the PCs to receive gold piece rewards based on the gear collected from the defeated combatants, instead allow the PCs to find a chest of gold (or something similar) that gives them the same rewards.

Talk to your GM about implementing something similar. The method of reward can be anything, and can be different every time. Grateful townsfolk, buried treasure, an advance on profits from a negotiated trade, even divine intervention. The only limit is imagination.

[Kasoh]

Derklord wrote:

I very, very strongly recommend using Automatic Bonus Progression. It's unbelievable how much better it makes the game. It doesn't remove all combat-relevant items, but the most comman/important ones, meaning PCs are completely competitive even without any loot. And at the same time as it removes the need for loot, it reduces the amount of treasure enemies carry, as their weapons and armors are now non-magical (and they don't have the standard rings, amulets, and cloaks, either). What treasure remains that I want to hand out I can easily put on a few encounters, or to be found elsewhere.

As a GM, who runs a lot of pre written material, I find ABP to be a hassle to use. In a homebrew game, I have no doubt it works well, but if someone buys adventures to not have to do that kind of work, then asking them to do it is not much a starter.

When I GM, I do not give the PCs treasure for encounters they bypassed. The reward was not having to fight people. They saved resources and energy by not doing while accumulating xp. If they continue to avoid combat, then they will be struggling when combat is forced upon them. That is natural, and the expected consequence of their actions.

And treasure guidelines aren't perfect by any account. A level 5 character should have roughly 10,500 gp worth of stuff. If that treasure is concentrated in 'flavorfull' items that don't directly apply to their combat numbers, then they're still struggling.

1,000 gp seems rather low though. That's barely full masterwork gear. Even skipping 1/3 of all fights, you'd expect treasure to be 1/3 less. Unless they just happen to skip all the treasure hoard fights, which seems...comically inconvenient.

If you feel its necessary to correct the treasure imbalance, it would be interesting to have them gifted magic items for their accomplishments. "For your dedication to the sanctity of life, have this +1 Merciful Weapon-You-Conveniently-Have-Weapon-Focus-In."

I've had players who steadfastly refuse to upgrade their gear because shopping item lists is some form of torture for them, so a solution I've come across is to just have the magic appear on their gear, as if gifted by a watching deity or because the blade passed through the enchanted flame before striking down a magical beast or whatever. You don't need to have treasure laying on the floor to get it into the hands of PCs.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Ways to get money from RP scenes: taking bribes, extortion, protection rackets, trade and commerce, accepting rewards for good deeds, NPC Boons. Also remember: not every reward has a monetary value. Did you learn critical intel? Perhaps that lets you bypass a guard encounter later and go straight to some treasure, meaning you saved money not buying/crafting and using the gear needed to slay the guardians.

Also... how much will others pay for what the priest now knows? Say your level 5 party negotiates their way past a horde of gnolls led by some kind of Oni; perhaps the church of said priest would find the existence of a spirit of sin given flesh very important. Perhaps they would reimburse the priest and his allies, or even hire them to return at a later time to slay the creature?

A level 5 fighter with 1000 GP worth of stuff IS pretty harsh, but in a game where a priest character is allowed to RP their way through some encounters, I've gotta believe that this campaign has a lighter tone to it. If that's the case... do the PCs ever get any Downtime? How is the fighter spending it?

Character wealth and resources aren't always measured in big 6 items. Can the fighter tap an NPC contact for a loaner magic shield for a specific mission? Can they negotiate their skills, training the local militia, in exchange for a permanent Magic Weapon cast on their scythe?

Then, let's look around the setting itself. Is there any land the PCs have cleared of monsters, or ruins they've liberated, and so on? Could they use their skills to find/exploit valuable resources, flora/fauna, mineral wealth and such? Are there unique pieces of lore, dungeon furnishings, geographical locations, etc. that NPCs might pay for?

There are far more revenue streams and sources of wealth than just looting the dead. If the players can't think of these, perhaps a nudge from the GM will help. A lot of these alternate revenue streams will depend on the kind of game you're running.

If the PCs are constantly on a clock running through a fairly linear plot, chances are the characters don't have the time to exploit alternate sources of revenue. On the other hand if there's more of an open world concept at work, the story is non-linear or in general the PCs have more access to Downtime and such, many of these could be accessed.

In my own games, right from session 0, I explain that my campaigns aren't Diablo clones. Don't expect to enter dungeons, stab monsters and have them explode into a shower of coins and items. If I take the time to describe a scene, the details I pick out were put there for a REASON.

PCs come into a dungeon room. Beside the entryway are two ornate, wrought iron candle stands. The far side of the room is dominated by a niche on the wall featuring a marble bust of a humanoid female with snakes for hair. The area is currently controlled by a handful of kobolds; craven and paranoid, these creatures were cut off from their main tribe by a cave in. They have only their numbers, not their usual layers of traps to defend themselves.

So, the party arrives and negotiates with the kobolds instead of slaying them outright. The PCs vow to spare the kobolds, but in exchange the creatures must flee to the surface and also leave behind that fancy jeweled belt their leader is wearing (art object). The kobolds comply and flee.

The PCs move to the statue of Medusa. A quick skill check (Appraise, Profession: Merchant, Craft: Sculpture or whatever) tells the PCs it's worth a decent amount, but it also weighs like, 50 lbs. Likewise the 6' tall candle stands are worth money, but they're not easily hauled away. Now the question is, how can the PCs salvage these furnishings without overloading their carrying capacity?

Returning from the dungeon a local NPC, a collector of antiquities, is very interested in the artistic furnishings the characters brought back. They use Diplomacy to negotiate premium rates for the stuff and make some decent coin unloading it. They also earn even more, perhaps an extra 10 GP each, describing the dungeon and helping the locals draw an accurate map of the place.

In selling their tales, the local sheriff becomes interested. There have been kobold raids on outlying villages. He will offer an additional 10 GP per PC for accurate descriptions of the kobolds' gear, insignias or tribal colors, distinguishing marks, and any intel on the group's activities.

The priest character goes whole hog into this and manages an extremely high Diplomacy check with one of the NPCs. Said NPC invites the characters out onto a local hunt in an act of genuine friendship as a result. The characters help the NPC bag a CR 4 Animal type creature on the hunt, from which a 200 GP trophy is harvested, 100 GP of which is given to the PCs as a reward.

Now, individually the sculpture, NPC gifts and trophy aren't huge money, but between these and the sale of the kobold's belt the characters manage to net 260 GP; while the encounter they skipped through RP was a CR 2 threat, meaning they only recouped half the revenue from that encounter, they've now ALSO got

1. an NPC contact in town
2. a lead on potential new adventure
3. setting-specific lore through NPC interaction

[Derklord]

Kasoh wrote:

As a GM, who runs a lot of pre written material, I find ABP to be a hassle to use. In a homebrew game, I have no doubt it works well, but if someone buys adventures to not have to do that kind of work, then asking them to do it is not much a starter.

What work? There is absolutely no additional work required. None. I'm using published enemies virtually exclusively, and yet I have zero issue usign ABP - I don't alter enemies at all, and simply remove all items from the loot that are removed by ABP (or the magic from those items, in case of weapons, armors, and shields). That's it.

The same would apply to adapting ABP for an existing group - remove or demagicify all Big 6 items, have the PCs gain the ABP benefits for their current level, done.

Kasoh wrote:

And treasure guidelines aren't perfect by any account. A level 5 character should have roughly 10,500 gp worth of stuff. If that treasure is concentrated in 'flavorfull' items that don't directly apply to their combat numbers, then they're still struggling.

You know what fixes this? Automatic Bonus Progression! The star-themed character wants to wear a Cloak of the Night Sky? No problem, they got the resistance bonus regardlessly!

Kasoh wrote:

I've had players who steadfastly refuse to upgrade their gear because shopping item lists is some form of torture for them

You know what fixes this? Automatic Bonus Progression!

Neriathale wrote:

NPCs offering the party a reward to go and deal with a situation. Make it an item the party actually want rather than a pile of stuff they don’t want but can sell for cash - “because we dealt with the Undead castle the local baron offered us each one item from his treasury”.

You can actually spice up quests with that. When the PCs have an audience with the baron, highlight the fancy set of armor collecting dusk in a display. If the PCs show interest beforehand, have the armor be promised as a reward, if not, it serves as foreshadowing and makes the world more realistic (as it lessens the "magic item shop" weirdness). That reminds me that I had planned to post in this thread...

[Kasoh]

Derklord wrote:

What work? There is absolutely no additional work required. None. I'm using published enemies virtually exclusively, and yet I have zero issue usign ABP - I don't alter enemies at all, and simply remove all items from the loot that are removed by ABP (or the magic from those items, in case of weapons, armors, and shields). That's it.

The same would apply to adapting ABP for an existing group - remove or demagicify all Big 6 items, have the PCs gain the ABP benefits for their current level, done.

I have tried to use it, and I didn't like how I had to rebalance the treasure. So you repeating that it doesn't cost you anything is worthless to me, as my experience has already taught me otherwise.

And you go on, but let me clarify. I hate automatic bonus progression. It not only never solves any issues in my games, it also makes my game worse and I threw it in the pile of ideas that people say is the next best thing for TTRPGs along with Milestone leveling, failing forward, and whatever "I actually want to be playing a rules-lite/narrative system" flavor of the month going around social media that makes it away into my view.

That said, I'm happy it works for you.

[DungeonmasterCal]

I love when my players roleplay their way into and out of situations and I give them the same XP as I would have had they hacked something to bits. The wealth by level rule isn't really an issue for us but then again, my group lives in a bubble; most of them haven't played under any other GM but me in at least twenty years. I run a homebrew setting and the guidelines that state PCs should have X amount of wealth by the time they reach Level Y don't really fit in it.

[thorin001]

Derklord wrote:

Kasoh wrote:

As a GM, who runs a lot of pre written material, I find ABP to be a hassle to use. In a homebrew game, I have no doubt it works well, but if someone buys adventures to not have to do that kind of work, then asking them to do it is not much a starter.

What work? There is absolutely no additional work required. None. I'm using published enemies virtually exclusively, and yet I have zero issue usign ABP - I don't alter enemies at all, and simply remove all items from the loot that are removed by ABP (or the magic from those items, in case of weapons, armors, and shields). That's it.

The same would apply to adapting ABP for an existing group - remove or demagicify all Big 6 items, have the PCs gain the ABP benefits for their current level, done.

Kasoh wrote:

And treasure guidelines aren't perfect by any account. A level 5 character should have roughly 10,500 gp worth of stuff. If that treasure is concentrated in 'flavorfull' items that don't directly apply to their combat numbers, then they're still struggling.

You know what fixes this? Automatic Bonus Progression! The star-themed character wants to wear a Cloak of the Night Sky? No problem, they got the resistance bonus regardlessly!

Kasoh wrote:

I've had players who steadfastly refuse to upgrade their gear because shopping item lists is some form of torture for them

You know what fixes this? Automatic Bonus Progression!

Neriathale wrote:

NPCs offering the party a reward to go and deal with a situation. Make it an item the party actually want rather than a pile of stuff they don’t want but can sell for cash - “because we dealt with the Undead castle the local baron offered us each one item from his treasury”.

You can actually spice up quests with that. When the PCs have an audience with the baron, highlight the fancy set of armor collecting dusk in a display. If the PCs show interest beforehand,...

ABP plus full loot is a recipe for problems. So you need to do the work of trimming down the loot.

[JiCi]

Calybos1 wrote:

"Will you quit trying to talk our way out of these encounters? It's costing us valuable treasure!"

Wait until your party sneaks their way to an enemy camp, steals their plans of attack and get out unseen without triggering anything.

Calybos1 wrote:

How do your groups deal with the wealth-by-level issue if/when PCs insist on thinking and talking their way past encounters too often, instead of stabbing and looting?

You let them talk their way out... because once you do, you will have enough arguments if they ever complain about not being well-prepared :P

Them: "Hey, but we don't have enough potions and arrows!"
You: "Well, you pacified the guards, so :P"

You should award XP accordingly though ;)

[ErichAD]

It depends on the solution they chose. A good church may donate to their cause, they could attract patrons, economies could improve dropping the cost of goods they need, adventurers could retire leaving their equipment to the party. It's also possible that whatever conflict the players are involved in deescalates. The peaceful solutions the players have used change the methods your big bad needs to use, so he hires fewer or cheaper warriors leaning on less traditional threats.

I'd be much more concerned that the other players are out of the spotlight too much if one player is creative solutioning their way out of encounters.

As for the ABP sidebar convo. I like it and use it, but it doesn't work well if you try and drop it into the middle of an existing game, it does require treasure reworking but only really turning big 6 items into mundane items. It also makes tons of abilities pointless, so players need to make sure their temporary boost ability isn't over written by ABP bonuses. There are tons of resistance bonus and deflection bonus abilities out there that only function for a level or two when they happen to briefly poke up above ABP.

[Derklord]

Kasoh wrote:

I have tried to use it, and I didn't like how I had to rebalance the treasure.

This statement makes no sense, because you don't have to re-balance treasure.

Kasoh wrote:

[ABP] never solves any issues in my games

Another statement that makes no sense. You can't say "I've had players who steadfastly refuse to upgrade their gear because shopping item lists is some form of torture for them", and then say that a system that removes the need to upgrade gear "never solves any issues".

I can't make you like something you don't. But it very strongly looks like your grievances with ABP come from you not understand how to properly use it. You talk about alleged downsides of ABP that simply don't exist! There are issues, but not what you complained about.

Indeed, ABP is the express train to not having to hassle about wealth, and to not having to re-balance treasure if PCs are over or under WBL for some reason.

[Kasoh]

Derklord wrote:

Kasoh wrote:

I have tried to use it, and I didn't like how I had to rebalance the treasure.

This statement makes no sense, because you don't have to re-balance treasure.

Kasoh wrote:

[ABP] never solves any issues in my games

Another statement that makes no sense. You can't say "I've had players who steadfastly refuse to upgrade their gear because shopping item lists is some form of torture for them", and then say that a system that removes the need to upgrade gear "never solves any issues".

I can't make you like something you don't. But it very strongly looks like your grievances with ABP come from you not understand how to properly use it. You talk about alleged downsides of ABP that simply don't exist! There are issues, but not what you complained about.

Indeed, ABP is the express train to not having to hassle about wealth, and to not having to re-balance treasure if PCs are over or under WBL for some reason.

You have to change how much treasure you give to 50% of WBL. Which means knowing how much treasure you give in the first place. And if the majority of the treasure was in items that no longer have value, you have to add it. And if I want the treasure to not be piles of gold coins, I have to make art objects as well. Its just extra work.

And a player who doesn't like shopping still has to shop, and they can't accomplish the task as easily because there's no must buys. If you only have 2000 gp, buying a Ring of Protection +1 is easy. If you can't buy that, then you have to read every item for every slot you have open for your price range. It exacerbates the problem. Especially since their other gear complaint is that "This items sounds cool, oh its useless ultra niche. Nevermind." I have other players who field the "I wish I didn't have to buy the big 6 items" complaint that APB might help but that wasn't a good point for my position.

Its not like I can't see how people would find it useful. Its just not the end all be all of solving gearing issues like I see people proselytizing. Its a tool that works for some tables and not others.

[Mysterious Stranger]

When you remove the big 6 items you pretty much have cut the treasure in half. Magic weapons and armor that have enchantments still have those; they simply remove the numeric bonus. Things like stat boosting items like stat boosting headbands and belts, rings of protection, amulets of natural armor and the like do not exist under the ABP rules, so are simply removed. This will leave only mundane treasure and the odd magic items that are not affected by ABP. What is removed is about half the treasure so that put you about where you should be in regards to the WBL. So your +2 sword becomes a masterwork sword. The +1 keen rapier becomes a keen rapier.

[CorvusMask]

I mean. Even if you give non combat loot, some people will argue "but we'd get even more loot if we took non combat look AND enemy loot" x'D

(ye either care about these things or you don't x'D I don't think most roleplayers care about getting every single +1 sword from mooks)

[Azothath]

it's more a GM problem than a scenario or game problem.

see Belafon's post above.

Part of the issue is simplicity and adjudicating a 'win'. In martial challenges the guys left standing 'win'. That's pretty obvious, simple, and easy.
In the end of a bidding war with only skills and various tactics where the PC's are just helpers/influencers... it's not so clear.
I will say that rewarding only martial challenges leads to min-maxing for combat, poor social skills and some unattractive behavior.

The published material has taken efforts at implementing less simplistic methods. With Org Play you gain XP with each scenario and generic gold rewards. Auto Bonus Progress (mentioned above). Some GMs provide generic gold for missions or titles, or allow magic item conversion at a better rate at times. That's all under GM purview.

As a group you need to do some research, find out how you want to progress and if it is something you want to try.
Your GM should read a couple of PF1 Org Play scenarios (year 7-10) to see how they do it.

[Mightypion]

ABP is mechanically the easiest one.

There are, depending on levels, other possible rewards for roleplay.
If the adversaries are not iredeemably evil, they could support the party against the actually evil foes.

An encounter where the big bads special goon squad tries to murder the normal goon squad the party did diplomacy with, and the party comes in to save the day would resolve several things:
--The combat characters get something to do
--The diplomatic thing is actually rewarded
--If some of the diplomatic goon squad survive, they will have some hints on where the special evil goon squad has their valuables.
--The diplomatic cleric can roleplay even more with trying to keep the non evil good squad alive.

Special forces goon squad will have better loot, and even better loot the more of the non evil goon squad member survive the encounter.

[Derklord]

Kasoh wrote:

You have to change how much treasure you give to 50% of WBL. Which means knowing how much treasure you give in the first place. And if the majority of the treasure was in items that no longer have value, you have to add it.

This is what I meant with "you not understand how to properly use it": You don't need to do these things. Removing the respective items from the loot reduces the treasure, and even though it may not be exactly 50% all the time, on average it works out. And if perchance it doesn't exactly work out, it's no big deal, because with ABP, you don't really have to care about matching WBL in the first place.

Kasoh wrote:

And a player who doesn't like shopping still has to shop, and they can't accomplish the task as easily because there's no must buys.

You said the player "refuse to upgrade their gear", I took that statement at face value - if they upgrade their big 6 items, they do upgreade their gear. Also, if the player is fine with simply buying big 6 items, there shouldn't be a problem in the first place, because they can simply pour virtually all wealth into those.

You're right that ABP doesn't remove all issues the player has with buying items... but it greatly reduces the effect, and it can be used as a base to go a step further and remove magic item shops altogether.

Kasoh wrote:

If you can't buy that, then you have to read every item for every slot you have open for your price range. It exacerbates the problem. Especially since their other gear complaint is that "This items sounds cool, oh its useless ultra niche. Nevermind."

No, this is exactly where ABP helps - since you're guaranteed to have a functional character without picking any gear, you can spend gear on niche items or flavor items, and you don't have the pressure of having (or feeling that you have) to pick mechanically powerful items.

[Liliyashanina]

Derklord wrote:

ABP is fun

I for one fully agree good Sir,

ABP is a most wonderful boost for the fashion industry and high culture as well. Imagine the sad times before it, when, at a meeting of Ladies Nocticula, Shamira and Vellexia, all 3 of these charming entities would probably be wearing the same attribute enchancement gear!

Que horreur! The aristocracy of Alyushinnara as a uniformed military!
Imagine the thought!

Mechanical flexibility among item choices lends to far great fashion flexibility and thus enjoyment!

[Something-Different]

how to solve the problem of "Less fighting = Less looting"....

I think you are coming at this from the wrong direction.

Kill one of the PCs and point out how much money went into paying for the Raise Dead... Wait, you mean we could have just made a bluff check and walked by that encounter? So, we got the loot from a few "bad guys" and now we have a bunch of Orc weapons and armor to fence - how much does that stuff weigh? This only cost us the diamond dust for one raise dead, 2 potions of Cure Moderate Wounds, a dozen magic arrows and 6 castings of remove disease... not to mention that we can't go back to that town 'cause we killed half the town guards.

How much did that last fight burn up in consumables? Potions of Lesser Restoration, Scrolls of Fly, Vials of Anti-toxin, wait - when the Evil Mooks turned the Rust Monster loose on the Fighter and it ate his platemail and sword? eeek!

Yeah - there's the problem of "Less fighting = Less looting"... but that is sort of related to the problem "Less fighting = Less costs"....

[Katisha]

Avoiding a fight hmmm...

old story time:

This was in a PFS game, so most of the players didn't know each other before (or after) sitting down at the table together...

I was running a bit of an over-the-top Face character... and so, not wanting to upset anyone, I check with the rest of the players to see if it was Ok for me to just "Talk our way out" of some of the upcoming encounters. They say "no fighting is ok" so...

In the scenario, we are presented with a series of missions to do before the final fight with the BBE (as is often the case, these were designed to wear down our resources and "soften us up" for the final fight).

First mission: We're given a mission to ambush a shipment of goods from just outside of town. We want what's in the wagon, and aren't real concerned with how we get it. Normally this would be an excuse to just "murder-hobo" the encounter, but my PC does things on a different path...So I turn to the other players and say, "let's just walk right up, tell them we're with the 'Home Office' here to pick up the shipment, and walk away with it."

Several players chuckle and say "yeah, sure..." figuring it's a novel way to start a fight. One player even insists on hanging back in the woods out of sight and getting ready for the fight. He's a fighter/rogue after all...And here's what we do.

Spells cast prior to the encounter: Aura of the Unremarkable and Glibness

...and so we walk plainly down the road from town to the camp site. We have some GREAT In Character Role Playing for 10 minutes or so game time...getting to know the guards and how they were set up to defend the shipment. "Great job you guys have done! We'll take it from here. I'll be sure to mention you in my report - how exactly do you spell your name? M-O-O-K-#-4? Great! oh, do you think you guys can hitch the wagon up for me? And my guards and I will be on our way and you can get some well deserved time off. I'll turn the wagon and team in later."

The Saves for the Aura were DCs 22+, and Bluff rolls (Taking 10) 60+.

The player in the woods responded "60 WHAT?" when I gave the judge my bluff number. So I told him "Well, I could take 20 and get a 70+, but I'm only 7th level so I can only do that once per day...and we might need it later". I even tipped the mooks each with a token good for a "special service" in the local house of easy virtue... and departed with names and descriptions of all the Aspis Agents in the transport detail...

Later in the game the same player was shocked when I took 10 on a Perception check and got a 12... esp. after I explained that it was a class skill and I had a rank in it. "Yeah, this PC is built for social settings."

Perhaps the best part was looking around the ball room at all the other groups playing the same scenario and realizing we had finished the first encounter in record time, having spent two spells and gotten the McGuffin and a wagon and team of horses...

[Kasoh]

Derklord wrote:

Kasoh wrote:

You have to change how much treasure you give to 50% of WBL. Which means knowing how much treasure you give in the first place. And if the majority of the treasure was in items that no longer have value, you have to add it.

This is what I meant with "you not understand how to properly use it": You don't need to do these things. Removing the respective items from the loot reduces the treasure, and even though it may not be exactly 50% all the time, on average it works out. And if perchance it doesn't exactly work out, it's no big deal, because with ABP, you don't really have to care about matching WBL in the first place.

Right. So following the instructions is not properly using it. Great system.

You and I want very different things out of the game's magic item system. ABP works for you. It will never work for me and the things you claim are bonuses are negatives in my view. Let's leave it at that.

[Ryze Kuja]

Personally, I don't like playing with Murderhobo parties. So, I don't use experience points, and instead I do Milestone-based leveling. And this encourages solving encounters without combat or with out-of-the-box thinking, so the party receives the same "exp" whether they stealth in to grab the mcguffin, talk their way into/out of things, or decide to go in guns blazing.

So when the party solves an encounter without combat, I feel it's my responsibility as GM to reward this behavior by keeping the PC's at WBL even though they're not actually killing everything. <---- and this is important. It's the GM's responsibility to ensure WBL is maintained even if they're not killing things.

I keep track of WBL with an excel spreadsheet and any time I give the party loot, I divide the total Gold amount equally amongst the PC's. When Loot drops, I give them a list of the loot on a Google Sheet that they can all access online, and then they have a "Dibs" column that they can claim everything during the week while we're not in sesh, and then at the very beginning of the following sesh, anything unclaimed or not "Dibs'ed" gets sold, and that Gold is also divided equally amongst the PC's. And everything gets automatically added up by the Excel sheet for me, and loot is done in only 5-10 minutes of in-sesh time. It's pretty efficient for them, and for me, and I can see what their actual wealth is because Excel does it all for me. So if they're under WBL, I know I have to give out extra coin the next loot drop, or, if they're over WBL, then I need to pull back the reins a bit.

Ways that I maintain WBL when the PC's are solving encounters without killing everything:

Hired services: An NPC pays the PC's half up front (10,000gp or w/e is appropriate for their level) to investigate/kill/steal <insert story hook>, and half upon proof of completion (another 10,000gp, or w/e)
Toss a Coin to your Witcher/Rumor Mill: An NPC finds out that the PC's have previously killed the horde of <insert mooks> that were causing <insert problem>, and is so happy to hear this news that he pays them for their trouble. Example, the King's personal Blacksmithy finds out the PC's killed the undead inhabiting the smithy's grandfather's graveyard the next town over, and pays the PC's 1,000gp out of gratitude, and/or maybe the smithy offers to make the PC's weapons/armor?
Heist: If the PC's are WAY behind in WBL, plan a Heist. The PC's get wind of a major shipment of rubies and gems, magic weapons, or precious art being moved by <insert very obviously evil kingpin who the PC's won't mind stealing from>, or someone at the Rogue's guild has planned a "Mission Impossible" and is hiring muscle to break into a hidden Crimelord/Smuggler's Vault/Bank that is rife with magical traps and well-trained mercs and sellswords as guards. Who doesn't love a good Heist?
Dragons: Starting at level 7-9ish, dragons with some decent loot piles are a thing. So, introduce an evil dragon (attacking a town, demanding tribute for NOT attacking the town, killing/eating livestock, w/e), and let the PC's track down his lair. Stealth mission: optional, but not encouraged :)

[Sylvan Scott]

Calybos1 wrote:

How do your groups deal with the wealth-by-level issue if/when PCs insist on thinking and talking their way past encounters too often, instead of stabbing and looting?

What I try to do is keep track of what I've created in loot drops and have several back-ups that can stem from different sources: in-combat or out-of-combat. That said, it's a lot of work at times and I messed-up in my most recent campaign. The PCs went around every potential loot-drop area I had set up and, by the time they reached 4th level (where they were about to start facing the incorporeal "big bad") had nothing that would enable them to hit the creatures at all!

I hand-waved it by bringing some GM-ex-machina in and pre-emptively delivering some tools/weapons that will play an important part in the campaign, later, but at the moment will help them with their current encounter.

Additionally, while writing this adventure, I found something odd.

PCs are supposed to be able to "afford" the sorts of magic items that enable them to face the types of creatures with CRs that they would be expected to encounter. Incorporeal critters start showing up around CR3 with the biggest introduction being around CR 4 & 5. For a party of 5 adventurers, this would put the characters having a "difficult" encounter (the Big Boss fight) at lower levels having at least 1 ghost-touch item (or something similar) by 3rd or 4th level.

But if you go by Wealth-by-Level, the cheapest of these items would be far outside the range of affordability for the PCs. Essentially, if you use those rules as a guideline, they seem inapplicable. And the more I looked at them, the more I found similar things: PCs in their "big bad" encounters needed a higher guide-point for how much wealth they should have (in the form of magic items allowing them to face certain threats) at the lower levels than higher. In fact, after about 10th level, the wealth-by-level in the book works pretty well.

So, I'm tinkering with it, giving a huge boost at levels 1-4 with significant (but smaller) boosts from 5-10 after which things settle back into the standard progression.

Has anyone else run into this?

Yours,
Sylvan

[Sylvan Scott]

Belafon wrote:

Talk to your GM about implementing something similar. The method of reward can be anything, and can be different every time. Grateful townsfolk, buried treasure, an advance on profits from a negotiated trade, even divine intervention. The only limit is imagination.

If you use Ultimate Campaign's "Downtime" rules, giving rewards in the form of capital (especially influence) from grateful people who appreciate the non-combat solutions, is essentially the "Gift Card" of rewards. The PCs gather up the capital and then spend it, later, when they get back to town.

[Derklord]

Liliyashanina wrote:

Imagine the sad times before it, when, at a meeting of Ladies Nocticula, Shamira and Vellexia, all 3 of these charming entities would probably be wearing the same attribute enchancement gear!

Oh man, tell me about it. That one time I showed up to meet my future party at a tavern and that one Sorceress wore the exact same magic items as my Summoner. Talk about awkward! Good thing I had Unfetter, so I could leave my Eidolon there, and run home to change gear. That would've been a fashion faux pas nonpareil!

Sylvan Scott wrote:

PCs are supposed to be able to "afford" the sorts of magic items that enable them to face the types of creatures with CRs that they would be expected to encounter. Incorporeal critters start showing up around CR3 with the biggest introduction being around CR 4 & 5. For a party of 5 adventurers, this would put the characters having a "difficult" encounter (the Big Boss fight) at lower levels having at least 1 ghost-touch item (or something similar) by 3rd or 4th level.

But if you go by Wealth-by-Level, the cheapest of these items would be far outside the range of affordability for the PCs.

You can damage incorporeal creatures with magic weapons and spells, albeit at half damage. Against undead, the most common incorporeals, holy water also works.

ABP gives everyone magic weapons at 4th, which means you're expected to pick up a magic weapon during third level. There can be other tools, too - the Carrion Crown AP (which is very undead and ghost-heavy in book 1) hands out ghost touch arrows and undead bane arrows (and holy water) before you're expected to actually encounter the ghosts.

[Derklord]

Kasoh wrote:

Right. So following the instructions is not properly using it. Great system.

No, doing things that aren't actually said in the book is not properly using it.

All the ABP rules say about altering wealth is this: "Decrease character wealth by level (Core Rulebook 399) to half the normal amount." PU pg. 156 That's it. No mentioning of adjusting loot. Per the CRB, WBL is "the amount of treasure each PC is expected to have at a specific level. Note that this table assumes a standard fantasy game. Low-fantasy games might award only half this value, while high-fantasy games might double the value." CRB pg. 400 It's a guideline for GMs who want to check how well their players are equipped. It's main usage is actually for creating higher level PCs.

So no, there is no instruction that says you need to redo encounter loot to make it exactly 50%. All your complaints about that you have to change treasure are invalid, as nothing forces or even advises you to do so.

So you didn't understand how to properly use it, made a lot of completely unnecessary work, and decided based on the extra work that it's a terrible system. And now you're trying to defend your position just so that you have to face the fact that the fault didn't lie with the system, but rather with you. As clearly evident by this:

Kasoh wrote:

I have other players who field the "I wish I didn't have to buy the big 6 items" complaint that APB might help (...) It will never work for me and the things you claim are bonuses are negatives in my view.

So ABP would actually help your players... but still it's something that makes your game worse and all the upsides I see are downsides for you.

Yeah, maybe you should "leave it at that", before you make yourself look even worse.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

Personally, I don't like playing with Murderhobo parties. So, I don't use experience points, and instead I do Milestone-based leveling. And this encourages solving encounters without combat or with out-of-the-box thinking, so the party receives the same "exp" whether they stealth in to grab the mcguffin, talk their way into/out of things, or decide to go in guns blazing.

2 of my games use this approach; one uses XP based on player request. All three games feature murderhobos.

Tell me: what incentivizes players to optimize for RP when they build their characters? What mechanics in the game encourage RP as a solution to conflict? In other words, why would players in a PF1 game be motivated to RP over combat in the first place, based on the system itself?

I don't like murderhobo groups either, as a player or a GM. The last AP I got to play in I RP'd even during combat and my fellow gamers glared at me like I was crazy. Mechanically I don't see incentives to RP that are as strong or compelling as combat is to build a PC to in PF1, and quite frankly the players I've seen attracted to PF1 at conventions, my local game store, meetups, and in my own tables are players that enjoy crunch and mechanics.

Anecdotally, most of the players I've seen/had experience with in PF1 are more likely to use combat than RP to resolve conflict. Period. Combat is efficient, easy to master, has defined thresholds for victory (Save DCs or forcing enemy's HP to 0 or lower) and when victory is achieved you get every reward you can from the encounter.

I... envy the OP, and Ryze Kuja, and anyone else with an abundance of folks with predominantly RP tables/games. This is not an issue, it is a gift. My games are all on hold through the holidays now, so 2022 is the year I begin shopping Marvel Super Heroes or old White Wolf games, among others, to my players so we can run systems that specifically incentivize playing a role and non-violent solutions to problems.

[Sylvan Scott]

Derklord wrote:

You can damage incorporeal creatures with magic weapons and spells, albeit at half damage. Against undead, the most common incorporeals, holy water also works.

Oh, definitely! But it's still a case that makes the combat hellishly more difficult in my experience. But when you have the amount of damage dealt being halved against incorporeal creatures, while better than nothing, still feels not good enough ... especially not with the WPL value of 3,000 gp for 3rd-level characters. Since that takes into account not just magic items but overall wealth, equipment, consumables, etc... I figure that maybe 2/3rds of that will be accounted for via magic items ... and most of those, at low level, will be potions. I mean the Big Boss Battle is *supposed* to be tough, true, but I think it still behooves us GMs to tip things a bit more in favor of the PCs ... at least for those lower levels.

Also, in my case, the incorporeal Big Bad in this level-4 adventure is not undead so, well, not much that can be done in that case. Afterall, the rules don't differentiate between the source of the incorporeal ability ... just the ability itself.

Derklord wrote:

ABP gives everyone magic weapons at 4th, which means you're expected to pick up a magic weapon during third level. There can be other tools, too - the Carrion Crown AP (which is very undead and ghost-heavy in book 1) hands out ghost touch arrows and undead bane arrows (and holy water) before you're expected to actually encounter the ghosts.

And that can be a really good plan for many GMs, no doubt!

For me, I have 2 reservations with it.
1. Verisimilitude. Everyone has a different "breaking point" when it comes to what you'll accept as "game mechanics" versus a "realistic setting". In my case, auto-gaining magic items at x-level doesn't jibe with my expectation for my world or setting. Not that this is a bad thing but refs like me simply don't care for it because it undermines our own immersion and enjoyment of the game.

2. It's yet another system. I'll admit it: I'm old. I've been GMing since January 1st, 1980. When I switched from DnD3.5 to PF1, it took me about 10 years to get to where I could actually run things without confusing all the different rules from all the different versions of all the different editions that I'd read. I'm still constantly confusing what's a house rule, what's an old house rule, and what's an old edition rule. My memory is literally not what it used to be. And with different editions using the same terminology for slightly different (or very different) game rules has finally reached the breaking point in my life. I often feel like I'm letting my players down because they'll have read a rule that explicitly addresses a ruling I've made in the absence of knowing about that rule. This happens several times per session ... mostly all because I can't remember or keep straight the various rules that are haphazardly stored in my brain. So, even though the ABP may be a good system, it's still *one-more-system* I have to learn and get confused with all the other out-of-date information rattling around in my skull...

I hope that clarifies where I'm coming from! :)

Yours,
Sylvan

[Kasoh]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

Ryze Kuja wrote:

Personally, I don't like playing with Murderhobo parties. So, I don't use experience points, and instead I do Milestone-based leveling. And this encourages solving encounters without combat or with out-of-the-box thinking, so the party receives the same "exp" whether they stealth in to grab the mcguffin, talk their way into/out of things, or decide to go in guns blazing.

Tell me: what incentivizes players to optimize for RP when they build their characters? What mechanics in the game encourage RP as a solution to conflict? In other words, why would players in a PF1 game be motivated to RP over combat in the first place, based on the system itself?

At a system level? Not much. There are stealth mechanics and systems for influencing NPCs, a lot of their utility still revolves around the combat mechanics.

In my experience, its when Players want to engage with the notion that killing people is stressful and traumatizing for a variety of reasons that their characters will try to avoid conflict.

Strangely, what helped my groups with it was starting a kill tracker. We track every NPC death, who did it, and where it happened. When you start to see just how many people your character is killing, it can give pause. "Do I need to a kill another person?"

It also can have people compete for spots on the leaderboard, but that's fun too, albeit for different reasons.

[Derklord]

Sylvan Scott wrote:

In my case, auto-gaining magic items at x-level doesn't jibe with my expectation for my world or setting.

I think you misunderstood me, and I presume you didn't read the ABP rules. I was speaking metaphorically - ABP doesn't give you magic items, you simply get bonuses on levelup. Most of the bonuses are not at all different from gaining BAB, saves, or the ability score pip every fourth level. It's actually much easier on the willing suspension of disbelieve than having magic item shops at every corner.

What I further meant was that as ABP is based on when the game expects you to have specific items, and since ABP grants +1 weapon enchantment at 4th level, a character in a game using regular loot should logically be expected to have picked up a +1 weapon by then.

[KingGramJohnson]

@Derklord - ABP would never fly with me and the people I game with. It takes the fun out of some elements of the game. We enjoy seeing if we have enough money to buy the things we need (the Big 6) and the other things we may want and choosing between them. ABP just gives it to you. You need to suspend your disbelief, as you say, but for me, it's suspending it a little too far. And the magic is not enchanted on the weapon, it's attuned to it and can be moved around at the PC's leisure.

For example, let's say you're in a fight, and your weapon was taken from you, and the villain escapes with it. In a typical game, this hurts; you put a lot of money you worked hard for into that weapon. But in an ABP game, it's no big deal; just switch the attunement to your backup weapon tomorrow. Or if your armor gets sundered or your cloak is stolen. No actual harm or foul.

If it works for your group, that's fine, but it's not a great system for all people and play styles, and I think that's what @Kasoh is talking about. It's not a bad system; it's just not for everyone.

And yes, it does take some work, despite what you claim, as you have to recalculate prices of weapons with non-enhancement magic on them (Such as Bane, Holy, etc.). It can be a hassle to some GMs who don't want to deal with that level of minutia.

As for @Calybos1's original question, what I find works the easiest is taking some of the treasure they would get from an encounter they bypassed and placing it elsewhere in the adventure as loot in chests or hidden compartments.

I don't recommend transferring unique items if they bypass an encounter.

E.g., The party talks their way out of an encounter that they would have dropped a cool dagger made of cold iron. That happens to be the only cold iron drop in the adventure game, and cold iron is needed to kill a nasty monster later that will not die unless dealt a killing blow from a cold iron weapon (I'm looking at you, RotR). (This wasn't my exact experience with this AP, but it's similar enough to use it as an example here.)

Well, in the context of the story, they either missed their opportunity to get that item, OR they need to rethink how to get that item. If it's a MUST HAVE campaign item required to complete the mission, and the party bypasses it, the GM will need to reroute them back to it. I've had to do this before because a party ignored information they received, used social skills to bypass an encounter, and missed picking up an essential item they needed. They realized they messed up and had to double back and steal it, which they did successfully.

The point I'm making, though, is that with only a little effort on your part, you can supply them with items they would get as murderhobo loot simply by including it elsewhere. And if that doesn't work, as others have pointed out, have the loot be rewards for their good deeds from people who what to help and contribute to the cause or whatnot.

[Sir Ol'Guy]

I can recall running a game long ago where I felt bad about the amount of treasure (or lack thereof) that I had given out in an earlier session. So I placed a large gem (a ruby) in the hall for the players to find. Simple enough, they'd get instant cash to cover what I had shorted them before. For in game rational, I reasoned that another adventuring party (they knew there were others exploring the same ruins they were) had dropped it as they left - and had not noticed it fall out of their bag.

So, as the heroes approached a intersection they caught sight of a "red twinkle" on the floor ahead. Out came the detect spells, the rogue checking for traps, Paladin doing Detect Evil, the works. Ultimately, even discovering that it was a valuable gem, they elected to bypass that section of tunnel to avoid approaching it. They could come up with NO REASON FOR IT TO BE THERE. It HAD to be a trap, and one they couldn't figure out, so it was best to bust a hole in a couple stone walls to bypass the intersection entirely... leaving that ruby on the ground.

Months later, they would still point out how they could sometimes "foil my evil plans" by "avoiding the bait"...

[KingGramJohnson]

Sir Ol'Guy wrote:

I can recall running a game long ago where I felt bad about the amount of treasure (or lack thereof) that I had given out in an earlier session. So I placed a large gem (a ruby) in the hall for the players to find. Simple enough, they'd get instant cash to cover what I had shorted them before. For in game rational, I reasoned that another adventuring party (they knew there were others exploring the same ruins they were) had dropped it as they left - and had not noticed it fall out of their bag.

So, as the heroes approached a intersection they caught sight of a "red twinkle" on the floor ahead. Out came the detect spells, the rogue checking for traps, Paladin doing Detect Evil, the works. Ultimately, even discovering that it was a valuable gem, they elected to bypass that section of tunnel to avoid approaching it. They could come up with NO REASON FOR IT TO BE THERE. It HAD to be a trap, and one they couldn't figure out, so it was best to bust a hole in a couple stone walls to bypass the intersection entirely... leaving that ruby on the ground.

Months later, they would still point out how they could sometimes "foil my evil plans" by "avoiding the bait"...

Haha! I've had players bypass treasure because they didn't trust it either! Classic!

[Sylvan Scott]

Derklord wrote:

Sylvan Scott wrote:

In my case, auto-gaining magic items at x-level doesn't jibe with my expectation for my world or setting.

I think you misunderstood me, and I presume you didn't read the ABP rules. I was speaking metaphorically - ABP doesn't give you magic items, you simply get bonuses on level-up. Most of the bonuses are not at all different from gaining BAB, saves, or the ability score pip every fourth level. It's actually much easier on the willing suspension of disbelieve than having magic item shops at every corner.

What I further meant was that as ABP is based on when the game expects you to have specific items, and since ABP grants +1 weapon enchantment at 4th level, a character in a game using regular loot should logically be expected to have picked up a +1 weapon by then.

Ah, yes: I *had* misunderstood!

Forgive me: I've been trying to understand this thread of conversation without committing to memorizing a new, optional system. (At my age, I have enough trouble remembering all the rules that I *already* struggle to keep in mind!) :)

So, basically, it's somewhat similar to the auto-increase to Ability scores every 5 levels, right?

[Mark Hoover 330]

It's funny; I cut my teeth on old 1e and 2e games where there was a rule (or an optional rule maybe) that GP equaled XP so we took everything not nailed down. Then, for the nailed down stuff we came back later.

Seriously, there was one module with solid mithral vault doors and our characters were level 3. Our entire journey by the time we leveled to 5th was solely to get the spells and equipment necessary to rip off one of those doors. We did, brought it back to the city, sold it and retired the campaign.

But then that also made us players opportunistic and cunning. I knew my DM's back in the day were fond of the "here's a not-level-appropriate monster, have fun" and absolutely diabolical traps to boot. A lot of sessions were RP based purely b/c we were praying and sweating over the fact that we were level 4 and looking at a Type II Demon.

Since we couldn't defeat everything in single combat, we knew we couldn't always just waltz in and take the enemy's loot. We started seeking out those "alternate revenue streams" I pointed out upthread. I remember a lot of adventures where we dismantled traps we'd disarmed, trying to strip the thing for parts to sell. We'd steal old rugs and tapestries, bring 'em home and try to find some way to restore them; we'd also take downtime between missions and study the lore these art pieces gave us about the DM's setting and then our characters would write books, sell maps and give lectures to other adventurers for GP.

When treasure equaled experience we did everything we could think of to acquire it. When I hit 3x it was so much fun for me b/c I didn't have to worry about money being the driving force anymore and I could literally BUILD my character by bits and pieces.

Thing is though, the habits I developed never really went away. To this day I constantly pester my GM's for lore, take copious notes and create excerpts of flowery "adventure chronicles" my PC is keeping, just in case I want to justify a three volume set to market of my exploits. In the RoW game my GM got so annoyed with me asking "can we skin it" for magical beasts, animals, even a dragon. I asked about troll trophies, if we could sell artwork (leather engravings) of the Maiden, Mother and Crone statues and so on.

I guess the bottom line is... I'm annoying as a player :O

[Derklord]

Sylvan Scott wrote:

So, basically, it's somewhat similar to the auto-increase to Ability scores every 5 levels, right?

Four level you mean, I think. Yes. Resistance bonus to saves, deflection bonus to AC, and enchantment bonus to natural armor bonus are automatically applied (replacing Cloak of Resistance, Ring of Protection, and Amulet of Natural Armor). For the replacements to stat-boosting belts and headbands you obviously have to pick which ability scores to increase. For weapons and armor/shield, you pick which weapon and which armor/shield you want to have the enhancement bonus on for that day (in practise, you usually pick the same weapon and armor, making the bonuses pretty much passive, too).

There are some issues with eidolons and animal companions, natural attack-based builds, and items with bonuses only partially removed by AB (like Monkey Belt), but these are mostly easy to fix.

[Boomerang Nebula]

The simplest solution is to have monsters that don’t carry much loot.

[Azothath]

I personally (as a GM & Player) don't care for ABP as it is too generic. I can see its appeal but your GM should be a bit more creative.

[Melkiador]

The problem with ABP is how rarely the party gets anything. A majority of the loot that drops in published adventures is removed by ABP. And so your party goes through loot deserts. Long stretches of time where they get nothing relevant.

ABP also over-emphasizes leveling. It makes people focus too much on xp/leveling, the same way they were previously focusing on loot.

[pad300]

ABP (in my admittedly limited experience, 1 game) has a tendency to leave the PC's a little short of where they need to be for competence in the world...
This may have been just the GM's version, but, "Items that only provide bonuses to AC, saving throws and statistics longer exist." Which meant that something like a Lucky Horseshoe (luck bonus to saves) was out. Fine, but a 7th level character with only a +1 resistance bonus to saves, in the meatgrinder that is the Slumbering Tsar saga, is asking for Trouble with a capital T.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The way I run ABP is to remove the items that only provide the same bonus as the system removes. So cloaks of protection (Resistance bonus to save) are removed, but the Lucky Horseshoe (Luck bonus to save) would be kept. Too me this may not RAW, but is RAI.

In my games I prefer that most of the characters power come from their character not the items. For this reason I usually go with a 25 point buy and I am currently running a mythic campaign. I find the ABP helps keep things to a reasonable level because it prevents hyper specialization. ABP prevents the characters from using half their WBL for a single powerful item at the expense of everything else. That usually creates more problems than anything else.

[Calybos1]

Boomerang Nebula wrote:

The simplest solution is to have monsters that don’t carry much loot.

I'm puzzled... what problem are you solving with this?

[Kasoh]

Calybos1 wrote:

Boomerang Nebula wrote:

The simplest solution is to have monsters that don’t carry much loot.

I'm puzzled... what problem are you solving with this?

If the NPCs don't carry loot, then the party doesn't miss loot by not fighting them. Presumably, this method requires treasure to be placed elsewhere or acquired through other means.

[Derklord]

KingGramJohnson wrote:

For example, let's say you're in a fight, and your weapon was taken from you, and the villain escapes with it. In a typical game, this hurts; you put a lot of money you worked hard for into that weapon. But in an ABP game, it's no big deal; just switch the attunement to your backup weapon tomorrow. Or if your armor gets sundered or your cloak is stolen. No actual harm or foul.

Now this is a legitimate different viewpoint, you see something negative actually in the system where I see a huge upside.

Of course, it only applies when you don't give loot that the players want to specifically keep. In my current game, I have custom magic weapons that the players would strongly grief about if they lost them. My Barbarian has a sword that grants tattoos when worn (a bit like Maui's from Moana), which change color when she rages - you think that losing that weapon would be "no big deal" because the character could attune an ordinary greatsword come next morning?

Azothath wrote:

I personally (as a GM & Player) don't care for ABP as it is too generic. I can see its appeal but your GM should be a bit more creative.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. What is too generic? ABP decreases the genericness of characters because a) characters are able to wear other cloaks than Cloak of Resistance, other Amulets other than AoNA, and not one but two rings of their chosing, and b) players can buy items of their liking without having to feal bad on spending cash on something that may not improve combat prowess.

As a GM, ABP is what allows me to be creative. It allowed me to remove magic item shops, remove identification of (non-consumable) items by means other than trying them out (which is honestly amazing), and it allows me to make interesting magic items that won't be replaced the next time a item with a bigger numerical bonus becomes aviable.

Melkiador wrote:

The problem with ABP is how rarely the party gets anything. A majority of the loot that drops in published adventures is removed by ABP. And so your party goes through loot deserts. Long stretches of time where they get nothing relevant.

If you're playing for people with ADHD, or children who can't find entertainment when they don't get candy every 15 minutes, sure. In my opinion, games should have reward beyond just loot, but maybe that's just me... Also, ABP allows handing out magic items that actually feel magical, rather than mundane, which makes getting a cool magic item much more special and rewarding then finding +x magic weapon number 153.

pad300 wrote:

ABP (in my admittedly limited experience, 1 game) has a tendency to leave the PC's a little short of where they need to be for competence in the world...

This may have been just the GM's version, but, "Items that only provide bonuses to AC, saving throws and statistics longer exist." Which meant that something like a Lucky Horseshoe (luck bonus to saves) was out. Fine, but a 7th level character with only a +1 resistance bonus to saves, in the meatgrinder that is the Slumbering Tsar saga, is asking for Trouble with a capital T.

RAW you're right, but I'm pretty sure that's meant to only refer to the bonus types replaces by the system.* Not that I see how a Lucky Horseshoe makes or breaks a character...

*) ABP replaces item-based enchancement bonuses (to weapon, armor, natural armor), and ability scores, deflection bonuses, and resistance bonuses with level advancement based ones. That's what ABP does. It may not be explicitly written (in a book that's badly content-edited and where each section was space-restricted), but it's only logical that the only bonuses not aviable on items are the bonuses granted by ABP.

[pad300]

Derklord wrote:

pad300 wrote:

ABP (in my admittedly limited experience, 1 game) has a tendency to leave the PC's a little short of where they need to be for competence in the world...

This may have been just the GM's version, but, "Items that only provide bonuses to AC, saving throws and statistics longer exist." Which meant that something like a Lucky Horseshoe (luck bonus to saves) was out. Fine, but a 7th level character with only a +1 resistance bonus to saves, in the meatgrinder that is the Slumbering Tsar saga, is asking for Trouble with a capital T.

RAW you're right, but I'm pretty sure that's meant to only refer to the bonus types replaces by the system.* Not that I see how a Lucky Horseshoe makes or breaks a character...

*) ABP replaces item-based enchancement bonuses (to weapon, armor, natural armor), and ability scores, deflection bonuses, and resistance bonuses with level advancement based ones. That's what ABP does. It may not be explicitly written (in a book that's badly content-edited and where each section was space-restricted), but it's only logical that the only bonuses not aviable on items are the bonuses granted by ABP.

I think you're missing the forest for the trees in my reply. IIRC, you're the person who made

THIS; you understand that PC's need to meet certain benchmarks to be functional.

In the campaign I am referencing, there were no characters (of 7 who participated) who had green or better saves across the board. Most (5 of 7) had at least one save that was below yellow. Not one blue save in the entire collection. All the players were experienced character builders familiar with PF1 and 99% of PF1 material was allowed...

The ABP system, as written, generally results in PC's that are behind for their level in terms of saves and so forth. I expect it didn't help matters that the Slumbering Tsar Saga was written by Frog God Games...

[Boomerang Nebula]

Kasoh wrote:

Calybos1 wrote:

Boomerang Nebula wrote:

The simplest solution is to have monsters that don’t carry much loot.

I'm puzzled... what problem are you solving with this?

If the NPCs don't carry loot, then the party doesn't miss loot by not fighting them. Presumably, this method requires treasure to be placed elsewhere or acquired through other means.

Bingo!