What would people recommend for a very powerful melee build?

[Senko]

Just curiosity here as I don't play non-casters much I'd like to look at a high powered melee build (high ac and damage type preferably with a weapon or unarmed rather than claw/bite). Not looking for a full build just pointing at one that would be considered good currently as the ones I have been able to find are either pay to view or from 6+ years ago. I know there's the class guide just don't know enough to know this is good, this is less preferential in the day's of X class/feat/trait.

[zza ni]

it depend on your style and attributes also resources.

with enough good starting attributes and items an unchained monk going jabbing style can be a real wrecker at end game. -had a level 16-18 at rise of the runelords that had 10-11 attacks a round with jabbing master adding +2/4d6 on attacks that land beside the 1st, i was one round killing even the toughest giants. with flying kick sometimes even more then one a round (attacks bab 16/11/6/1+flurryX2+medusa'z wrath X2+ elbow smash lower nonlethal attack X2+haste. sometimes switched an elbow smash for flying kick o get closer to target while full attacking so 1 less attack). with party buffs a +5 amulet of mighty fists (+ holy for extra damage and some other buffs) i was rarely missing as well. had to roll my attacks one by one and then damage and see when i drop an enemy to move to the next. since it matter which attack hit who and when for jabbing style. (with hitting all attacks netting +38d6 damage from jabbing master alone) and dropping a cold ice strike (Qinggong level 14th power, 2 ki cost instead of 3 for ring of ki mastery) for swift action 1d6/level line of cold damage.
- a lot of this would not been possible with lesser equipment or attributes. (and at lower level)

if you do not have enough attributes points to run around with, a synth summoner is a walking double health high ac tank that shamelessly can drop his own physical attributes and cloak in his pet's psydo-armor.

if you want to go for a lot of damage nova style a cavalier with a lance can get real nasty with the right build and gear (And mouont).
while a halfling sorcerer\unchained monk (scaled fist for cha)\dervish swashbuckler (1\1\rest) build i once made had ac of 48+ at around level l5-6. (going for crane style and fighting defensively. he wasn't the best dps but he was always the last one standing. sorcerer with his bloodline was for mage armor and infinite healing. i was the party's tank AND healer)

[Senko]

I did consider the monk especially when I saw the old master capstone in chronicle of legends. If scaled fist trade in perfect self for old master get an extra attack and +2 dodge bonus to AC at 20th level.

[zza ni]

after a while simply dealing damage, while mostly effective got boring so i usually spice up the melee with some kind of debuffing effects.

getting noxious bite for example (can be done on a level 1 undine), or the nagaji venomblade fighter archtype (with the whole spit venom feat tree) are fun. (once he get the aoe spit, that auto hit anyone who start in the spot he slimed, no save for some of the debuffs like entangle)

of course a grappler is always awesome (looking at you tettori). and if you can somehow sneak in the post-nerf hard to get final embrace horror and do two grappling in a round that is auto shut down to almost anyone who isn't good at escape artist (since a grapple check to get free is an attack and when frightened one can't attack)

[FraVit]

A combination of Virtuous Bravo Paladin and Scaled Fist Monk (Unchained) would be a very durable melee martial wich uses both Dexterity and Charisma.

You can reach very high levels of AC and saves on top of allowing you to get Crusader's Flurry as soon as level 5.

If you are ok with worshipping Shelyn you can get Bladed Brush, allowing you to get the only 2h weapon wich works with swashbuckler’s class features such as Precise Strike and her Deific Obedience is very powerful too!

[MrCharisma]

Barbarians and Bloodragers make very effective melee characters (There's a BR archetype that trades out spells for spell resistance if you wanted bloodline stuff with no spells).

Regardless of what class you choose, a 1 level dip in Brawler (or some other method of getting Martial Flexibility) adds a lot of options for a Martial character.

[zza ni]

MrCharisma wrote:

Barbarians and Bloodragers make very effective melee characters (There's a BR archetype that trades out spells for spell resistance if you wanted bloodline stuff with no spells).

Regardless of what class you choose, a 1 level dip in Brawler (or some other method of getting Martial Flexibility) adds a lot of options for a Martial character.

taking barroom brawler feat give you 1/day 1 min of adjusted combat feat.

my go-to feat, beside situational things (such as blind fighting or lunge etc), is the dedicated adversary feat getting the following tailor fit to the match enemies:

"+2 bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival checks against creatures of his selected type... a +2 bonus on weapon attack and damage rolls against them... may make Knowledge skill checks untrained when attempting to identify these creatures."

[MrCharisma]

While Dedicated Adversary is useful, it only gives bonuses to rolls you could already make. You can get those bonuses elsewhere.

I like things like the Improved <maneuver> feats, Dazzling Display, Stunning Interruption - feats that let you do things that would otherwise be impossible or near enough.

[zza ni]

i agree, i count them in with "situational things (such as blind fighting or lunge etc)" if i need to grapple id take improved grapple. but most of the time melee fight is about raw damage and the ability to hit to deliver it.

not to mention the last bit which you can't normally do - being able to make untrained knowledge checks on the fly (with previous the mentioned +2)

but again, that is what nice about barroom brawler. you don't have to take dedicated adversary if you got something better to pull off. it's when you need an all around big buff to take out the big bad or his mobs fast. it's like weapon focus + greater weapon focus+ weapon specialization all in one (with extra bits)

[Mark Hoover 330]

If you're looking for melee dominance without damage, I will second everyone mentioning maneuvers, specifically grappling. A grappling-focused build gets OP quick. For DPR there's a lot of options. Unchained Rogue with the Scout archetype so you're getting Sneak Attack on almost every combat round, a barbarian with a mount and a lance... heck, a 2-Handed Fighter archetype fighter with Vital Strike could make a single attack and deal double weapon damage, double Str damage on that attack which is decent for level 6.

Specifically what you're asking for is high AC and damage, in melee, excluding natural weapons such as claws and bites. You don't usually play non-casters, so I'm assuming that you are wanting advice on non-caster melee types? I don't know, maybe I'm reading too much into that. Whatever, here's my best advice:

Max out Str, secondary in both Dex and Con, wear heavy armor, carry a 2-h weapon, and take Power Attack. There, that's it.

Seriously, beyond that advice you're looking at specific builds (which you say you're not looking for) and if you want DPR, there's an insane amount of threads about these. Yes, many are older threads but the builds and advice in those threads is still valid.

If you're looking at non-casters, all of your AC and a significant portion of your damage will come from your equipment. The remainder of your DPR will flow from class features. Class features are specifically designed to either be small, steady boosts to your combat prowess (Warpriest's damage progression, Sacred Weapon bonuses), situational (Sneak Attack, Ranger's Favored Enemy), or a limited resource (Rage, Smite Evil, Inspire Courage).

So for consistent damage you can rely on every round, maxed Str and Power Attack. For Consistent AC, get the best possible armor and Dex combo.

My own PERSONAL recommendation for decent damage and defenses would be a dwarven Warpriest. You're only 3/4 BAB but you've got Fervor to deliver self-buffs or heals, you can wear heavy armor and carry shields, dwarf plus feats for your saves and Con bonus, and Sacred Weapon for steady bonuses over time. You've got Blessings and you've always got options for your Swift actions so those don't go to waste. And finally, you'll get a few bonus combat feats and your levels count as fighter levels for the purposes of selecting feats.

[Senko]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

If you're looking for melee dominance without damage, I will second everyone mentioning maneuvers, specifically grappling. A grappling-focused build gets OP quick. For DPR there's a lot of options. Unchained Rogue with the Scout archetype so you're getting Sneak Attack on almost every combat round, a barbarian with a mount and a lance... heck, a 2-Handed Fighter archetype fighter with Vital Strike could make a single attack and deal double weapon damage, double Str damage on that attack which is decent for level 6.

Specifically what you're asking for is high AC and damage, in melee, excluding natural weapons such as claws and bites. You don't usually play non-casters, so I'm assuming that you are wanting advice on non-caster melee types? I don't know, maybe I'm reading too much into that. Whatever, here's my best advice:

Max out Str, secondary in both Dex and Con, wear heavy armor, carry a 2-h weapon, and take Power Attack. There, that's it.

Seriously, beyond that advice you're looking at specific builds (which you say you're not looking for) and if you want DPR, there's an insane amount of threads about these. Yes, many are older threads but the builds and advice in those threads is still valid.

If you're looking at non-casters, all of your AC and a significant portion of your damage will come from your equipment. The remainder of your DPR will flow from class features. Class features are specifically designed to either be small, steady boosts to your combat prowess (Warpriest's damage progression, Sacred Weapon bonuses), situational (Sneak Attack, Ranger's Favored Enemy), or a limited resource (Rage, Smite Evil, Inspire Courage).

So for consistent damage you can rely on every round, maxed Str and Power Attack. For Consistent AC, get the best possible armor and Dex combo.

My own PERSONAL recommendation for decent damage and defenses would be a dwarven Warpriest. You're only 3/4 BAB but you've got Fervor to deliver self-buffs or heals, you can wear heavy armor and carry shields, dwarf plus...

Its not so much that I don't want specific builds as I'm happy having people say "This build is good" and pointing at one rather than taking the time to provide all the details of a build themselves when I'm not sure what would appeal to me.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Well then, again, I feel like Warpriest has a good, steady influx of options that makes it strong in both offense and defense. U-Monk is another way to get the same but since it's so MAD it's hard to pull off well.

I don't know the occult classes at all but folks seem to rave about mediums. There are a billion different ways to build Fighters and there's even the Martial Master that gets Martial Flex, so if you can keep your gear up to or above WBL you'll be good here.

The thing with martial types, as Zza ni upthread was alluding to, after a while "I attack... do x damage... I'm done" gets boring. Combat Maneuvers can break this up, as can spells. Another way however is non-combat utility which many martials often lack. Don't neglect skills and non-combat aspects of the character.

Within combat, having a combat helper is fun. There's a Barbarian archetype called Mad Dog that gives your PC an AC but delays rage and removes Rage Powers. Still, you and the AC automatically get +4 to attack when Flanking and, if your GM allows the AC to take the feat, you could both get the TW feat Pack Flanking so that any foe you both attack together you're automatically considered Flanking.

So, at level 2 a Human Barbarian (Mad Dog) with a Wolf AC, Power Attack and Pack Flanking (the wolf also chooses Pack Flanking) and finally an 18 Str gets 2 attacks in melee against the same foe: greatsword +8 (2d6 +9), bite +6 (1d6 +1; Trip +6)

Yet ANOTHER way to change things up is to completely rethink your idea of contributing in a fight. Imagine, if you will, a Grippli Warpriest but focusing their feats on Agile Tongue, Agile Maneuvers, and using nets. They're using their limited spells/day not on self buffing but on delivering debuffing Touch attacks from 10' away, disarming or stealing from foes at the same range, and using a net as well for the Entangled condition.

[VoodistMonk]

Slayer is always decent. Dipping Eldritch Scrapper Sorcerer for Martial Flexibility opens up Seething Hatred [that guy], and helps your Will saves.

Gorum's Swordmanship allows Vital Strike on a charge. Rhino Charge allows you to ready a charge as a standard action. Four levels of Scout Rogue gets Sneak Attack on a charge.

[Smallfoot]

Magus class is justly famous for being able to pump out absurd damage for a few rounds per day. You won't have great AC, but being able to buff with Vanish, Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility and others will more than make up for that (although at higher levels, True Seeing becomes common among opponents). You can also build a Magus for combat maneuvers, which you might find entertaining.

[Scavion]

By no means an exhaustive list and my own personal favorites

Very Powerful:
Trappings of the Warrior Occultist
MAC Warpriest
Invulnerable Rager Barbarian
Arcane Bloodrager

Quite Good:
Unchained Monk(+Any of the good style feats)
Oath of the People's Council Paladin
Champion Focused Medium

[Heather 540]

Do you want to just pump damage? Or do you have a style in mind? That can change things. For example, my Hunter was built for extra damage when flanking and pumping out multiple AoOs. Basically a pink-haired buzz saw. My unchained monk is going the Dimensional Dervish line and then the Nightmare Fist line. She's going to be teleporting around in the dark slashing foes with her blade. Both are DPS focused but have different ways of fighting.

[Senko]

Heather 540 wrote:

Do you want to just pump damage? Or do you have a style in mind? That can change things. For example, my Hunter was built for extra damage when flanking and pumping out multiple AoOs. Basically a pink-haired buzz saw. My unchained monk is going the Dimensional Dervish line and then the Nightmare Fist line. She's going to be teleporting around in the dark slashing foes with her blade. Both are DPS focused but have different ways of fighting.

Nothing specific in mind just looking for suggestions of good choices to look into as I don't have much experience with melee types and everything I could find is old or for the owlcat games which are different and I'm not sure if the old stuff is still viable with current options.

[Melkiador]

Speaking of maneuvers, a dirty tricks build with the bounty hunter archetype can neutralize most enemies. Start with a blind with quick dirty trick and the rest of your attacks are pretty sure to hit, each inflicting a host of status effects.

The downside would be your GM probably hating you.

[Ryze Kuja]

Dirty Tricks Master Brawler has AC = Impossible once they Nauseate their target. Nauseated targets can only take move actions, and their dirty tricks conditions require standards to remove them.

[Claxon]

Though it's not the cream of the crop for melee, an Inquisitor is still pretty fun.

Between spells and judgements you can buff you're damage output pretty well, pick up your preferred two hand weapon via various proficiency shenanigans and just have fun.

The Inquisitor has a great spell list and great skills and enough class features to make you good in melee.

Inquisitor just make such damn well rounded characters I will always suggest them.

[Chell Raighn]

I’ve been playing quite a few martial characters as of late… largely due to how slow burn spellcasters tend to be and the fact that so many enemies in our campaigns have rather high SR causing most spells to fail outright against them…

A Crossblooded Bloodrager with the Hag and Abyssal bloodlines can be a force to recon with… especially with a 3 level dip into Two-handed fighter… and if your campaign just happens to include mythic then this type of character can reach absolute insanity levels of damage very fast… I was hitting for over 2,000 on Vital Strikes with an average hit of 500 for a full round attack with mine… of course personal survival takes a bit of a dip to hit that high, but when everything dies in one hit it doesn’t matter that much… just don’t get mind controlled, that’s how TPKs happen… bonus points if you manage to talk your DM into allowing Crossblooded to stack with Primalist to drop your less desireable bloodline powers for Rage Powers.

BattleDancer Brawler is quite fun too, though I would suggest a dip into Swashbuckler with either Okayo Corsair or Courser Archetype depending on if you plan to go unarmed or use a weapon and getting Agile enchanted on your weapon or AoMF… you get a highly mobile playstyle like this letting you perform hit and run tactics with little to no risk. Raw damage per hit isn’t particularly great, but you will hit a lot… and if you go Courser you can easily qualify for Circling Mongoose allowing you to flank with yourself…

Ragechemyst Alchemist… works best if you go into Master Chemyst at level 8… not quite as powerful as an actual Barbarian and nowhere near the power of a Bloodrager, but if done right you can pull some crazy damage with this type of character using a lot of natural attacks… if you don’t mind being extremely feat starved combine it with VMC Barbarian to stack Rage on top of your Rage Mutagen to really wreck house.

Warpriest… so many good choices here… my personal favorite though is to follow Desna and use a starknife…currently my highest damage character without mythic (so excluding my bloodrager) is a starknife wielding halfling warpriest of desna… no archetype… though Arsenal Chaplain wouldn’t have been a bad choice, and if given the downtime for it I might consider retraining her into it… but that would require me to rework some feats…

Shield Champion Brawler can be pretty fun too… play a Dwarf with two Dwarven Warshields and have a mountain of AC or just take a buckler and build into Upsetting Shield Style for some Buckler bashing shenanigans.

If you’ve got a campaign with a lot of demons and devils in it, a Towershield Specialist Fighter with a few levels of MAC Warpriest following Iomodae can be a deadly combination… especially if you go into Heritor Knight and take Cleave Feats…

[Gyre Glenross]

Claxon wrote:

Though it's not the cream of the crop for melee, an Inquisitor is still pretty fun.

Between spells and judgements you can buff you're damage output pretty well, pick up your preferred two hand weapon via various proficiency shenanigans and just have fun...

This where my opinion diverges. I played a Lizardman/Iruxi Inquisitor, who went the full bite/claw/claw route. Still passed out a lot of damage, as all three are primary attacks & get Str mods.

[Claxon]

Gyre Glenross wrote:

Claxon wrote:

Though it's not the cream of the crop for melee, an Inquisitor is still pretty fun.

Between spells and judgements you can buff you're damage output pretty well, pick up your preferred two hand weapon via various proficiency shenanigans and just have fun...

This where my opinion diverges. I played a Lizardman/Iruxi Inquisitor, who went the full bite/claw/claw route. Still passed out a lot of damage, as all three are primary attacks & get Str mods.

Sure, there are certain builds that can be exceptional for a melee Inquisitor, but it's harder to make that kind of suggestion (for me) because they get really specific.

Inquisitor can be incredibly lethal. Archer Inquisitor is perhaps one of the best possible archer builds. Rivaled by Warpriests.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Gyre Glenross wrote:

Claxon wrote:

Though it's not the cream of the crop for melee, an Inquisitor is still pretty fun.

Between spells and judgements you can buff you're damage output pretty well, pick up your preferred two hand weapon via various proficiency shenanigans and just have fun...

This where my opinion diverges. I played a Lizardman/Iruxi Inquisitor, who went the full bite/claw/claw route. Still passed out a lot of damage, as all three are primary attacks & get Str mods.

The OP suggested they want to refrain from natural weapon builds. They're specifically requesting ideas for having a strong martial character, a mix of high offense and defense, that focuses on delivering damage through a weapon or unarmed to end combats.

Frankly, I come back to Warpriest again and again. I only have experience with vanilla or Divine Commander and I'm a big fan of Animal Companions, Sacred Mounts and Familiars on characters, so that's where my own bias leads, but there seems to be a consensus that Arsenal Chaplain is the best mix of everything the OP is looking for, even though it DOES have some spellcasting.

[TxSam88]

For pure melee damage, a Dex Build fighter with TWF, Shortword, cutlass or longsword. effortless lace, haste item, DEX/STR item. add element to the weapons. Don't pick up the TWF Archetype, vanilla fighter is better. Weapon focus, weapon spec, piranha strike, improved crit, etc. Around 11th level you should have 5-6 attacks per round that do 1d8+10 (or more)

[Claxon]

I came back to this, and despite some changes which make it less effective than it used to be, I would be remiss if I didn't suggest Rage Lance Pounce Barbarian ;)

[Melkiador]

Smallfoot wrote:

Magus class is justly famous for being able to pump out absurd damage for a few rounds per day. You won't have great AC, but being able to buff with Vanish, Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility and others will more than make up for that (although at higher levels, True Seeing becomes common among opponents). You can also build a Magus for combat maneuvers, which you might find entertaining.

There are plenty of decent options if you want to boost your AC as a magus. Off the top of my head, the shield spell is great. And some of the dexterity builds can get a rather high AC.

And the magus has more staying power than most think. Spell Recall is a huge ability that often gets ignored. Convert that arcane pool to extra spells per day. And if that's not enough, take the extra arcane pool feat to give yourself even more spells per day.

[Name Violation]

Melkiador wrote:

Smallfoot wrote:

Magus class is justly famous for being able to pump out absurd damage for a few rounds per day. You won't have great AC, but being able to buff with Vanish, Mirror Image, Greater Invisibility and others will more than make up for that (although at higher levels, True Seeing becomes common among opponents). You can also build a Magus for combat maneuvers, which you might find entertaining.

There are plenty of decent options if you want to boost your AC as a magus. Off the top of my head, the shield spell is great. And some of the dexterity builds can get a rather high AC.

And the magus has more staying power than most think. Spell Recall is a huge ability that often gets ignored. Convert that arcane pool to extra spells per day. And if that's not enough, take the extra arcane pool feat to give yourself even more spells per day.

Right? once you can cast shocking grasp over 10 times a day, its no longer "going nova" but rather your "standard attack" now.

[IluzryMage]

So like pathfinder is FULL of powerful martial options.

I'd probably my person favorites are either:
-Trappings of the Warrior Panoply Occultist: Who is the only half caster that gets actual full bab, has more spells than most half casters at late level and has lots and lots of tricks thanks to being a psychic caster

-The Ironbound Samurai Fighter: Wherein you take 5 levels of fighter, and the rest in the Ironbound Samurai archetype and ALL OF YOUR CLASS FEATURES STACK AND YOUR FIGHTER LEVELS COUNT AS SAMURAI LEVELS AND VICE VERSA for a truely astounding number of bonuses and feats. Not to mention that fighters are pretty damn good on their own now.

Otherwise, another fave of mine in melee is...9th level divine casters.

I am unforunately serious.

-The Druid can wildshape into a doom dinosaur and tag team with their hyperbuffed doggo companion and both get like 5 attacks per round and pounce.

-The Cleric can cast lots of buffs, is still a 3/4th bab character and can get wicked powers from domains.

-I stand by my opinion that oracles can do whatever they want but they can easily get charisma to ac, initative and a bunch of other stuff if you know which mysteries to pick.

-Shaman can also do whatever it wants and with wandering hex, you dont even have to be focused in battling, you can just pick it up for kicks and get a hex that makes you better in melee.

All divine casters can basically wear whatever armor they want (just watch out of ACP) get insane spells, and if you want, can probably take samasaran mystic past life to just steal all be best spells for the paladin. Ever wanted a +5 weapon at level 7??? Holy Sword your cleric for easy ouchy!

[Azothath]

I think there are 3 routes to go;
1) classic big weapon STR based build. It outdoes the DEX based multi-attack builds in DPR and you don't rely on sneak attacks/moving every round.
2) sacrifice some DPR for SOP & RP flexibility still mostly martial classes and some paladin/rogue/ninja/warpriest etc mixes. There are many class options and multiclass mixes.
3) sacrifice DPR AND HPs for magical abilities & RP flexibility.

[Senko]

Azothath wrote:

I think there are 3 routes to go;

1) classic big weapon STR based build. It outdoes the DEX based multi-attack builds in DPR and you don't rely on sneak attacks/moving every round.
2) sacrifice some DPR for SOP & RP flexibility still mostly martial classes and some paladin/rogue/ninja/warpriest etc mixes. There are many class options and multiclass mixes.
3) sacrifice DPR AND HPs for magical abilities & RP flexibility.

SOP and RP? I'm guesssing RP is roleplay but no idea on SOP.

[VoodistMonk]

I think what it really comes down to is what you want your character to offer besides damage... damage is easy.

Literally any class, any race, any point buy... want a powerful melee build? Beg, borrow, or steal your way to starting with a 16+ Strength, 13+ Dexterity, and 13+ Constitution... and use a reach weapon (it's just a trait away for literally anybody). Take Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, and Furious Focus... in that order. Make sure to get your Dex and your Con to 14, and a belt will have to pick up the rest for those stats. Get your Str to an 18 or 20, and put the rest on your belt.

You can try get fancy from there with Weapon Focus, Weapon Trick: Polearm, Improved Bullrush, Rhino Charge... possibly Dazzling Display, Hurtful, and Cornugon Smash [if you have the stats/ranks to make Intimidate worthwhile].

Combat Reflexes allows you to make AoO whilst flat-footed. Full Stop. It's like a mini Uncanny Dodge for everyone, and keeps you alive in the inevitable surprise round. Combat Reflexes also allows you to consistently deal damage out of turn.

Furious Focus will keep you swinging with Power Attack penalty-free until BAB+6... this is a huge damage buff through accuracy.

Weapon Trick allows you to choke up your grip, to take your reach weapon in tight spaces. It also allows you to Bull Rush an adjacent foe, even if you are using your weapon as a reach weapon.

Rhino Charge breaks action economy, allowing you to ready a charge as a standard action... more damage out of turn.

Weapon Focus is already a prerequisite for Weapon Trick, so we might as well take Dazzling Display to offer a 30' debuff. Hurtful allows us to attack anyone we threaten and successfully Intimidate... we have a reach weapon, and threaten a wide area. Cornugon Smash is an obvious choice once one has Hurtful.

[MrCharisma]

VoodistMonk wrote:

Combat Reflexes allows you to make AoO whilst flat-footed. Full Stop. It's like a mini Uncanny Dodge for everyone, and keeps you alive in the inevitable surprise round. Combat Reflexes also allows you to consistently deal damage out of turn.

This.

I've had this literally save my life on multiple occasions. The best one was probably when my level ~4 Occultist jumped into a cellar only to be ambushed by 4 Ghouls. I crit one and got max damage on another, and killed them both outright before they got to attack. The difference between 2 saves vs paralysis and 4 saves vs paralysis is an important one (I think I had a +8 to my Fort Save, so a 64% chance of beating 2 saves, but only a 41% chance of beating 4 saves).

[Azothath]

roleplay(RP), standard operating procedure(SOP) which is basically a PC's martial mode of attack & feat focus along with a PC's skill set.

I normally play wizards(diviner with BO amulet), often with a two level dip into monk, rogue, paladin or one in cleric, samsaran lets me pick up an array of witch spells. My martials usually have a dip into wizard(diviner BO amulet, conj for dim slide) for magic use.

[TxSam88]

Azothath wrote:

1) classic big weapon STR based build. It outdoes the DEX based multi-attack builds in DPR and you don't rely on sneak attacks/moving every round.

I disagree, in my experience, DEX Build will out DPR a STR build, not only due to more attacks with more bonus damage, but also due to going first.

[Mightypion]

Combat reflexes is amazing. I think it is the most powerfull feat at level 1 for martials, certainly for Dex 14, arguably also for Dex 12.

It can literally triple your damage output.

[Wonderstell]

TxSam88 wrote:

Azothath wrote:

1) classic big weapon STR based build. It outdoes the DEX based multi-attack builds in DPR and you don't rely on sneak attacks/moving every round.

I disagree, in my experience, DEX Build will out DPR a STR build, not only due to more attacks with more bonus damage, but also due to going first.

Eh, I dunno. Going first as a DEX/TWF build doesn't mean much if you can't spend your actions meaningfully. Which you usually can't if you want to full-attack and the enemy is 30 ft away at the start of combat.

And DEX/TWF builds at low levels are really lacking in damage. With the exception of UnRogue it takes a long time before you can afford getting Dex-to-Dmg, so you're stuck using light weapons with awful damage dice and getting chip dmg from your half-dumped STR.

If someone said that they wanted a "very powerful melee build" that was meant to be played levels 1-8 I'd avoid DEX/TWF builds. Other DEX builds, sure. But not TWF.

[TxSam88]

Wonderstell wrote:

TxSam88 wrote:

Azothath wrote:

1) classic big weapon STR based build. It outdoes the DEX based multi-attack builds in DPR and you don't rely on sneak attacks/moving every round.

I disagree, in my experience, DEX Build will out DPR a STR build, not only due to more attacks with more bonus damage, but also due to going first.

Eh, I dunno. Going first as a DEX/TWF build doesn't mean much if you can't spend your actions meaningfully. Which you usually can't if you want to full-attack and the enemy is 30 ft away at the start of combat.

And DEX/TWF builds at low levels are really lacking in damage. With the exception of UnRogue it takes a long time before you can afford getting Dex-to-Dmg, so you're stuck using light weapons with awful damage dice and getting chip dmg from your half-dumped STR.

If someone said that they wanted a "very powerful melee build" that was meant to be played levels 1-8 I'd avoid DEX/TWF builds. Other DEX builds, sure. But not TWF.

Aside form the Vital Strike builds, all melee builds have issue with enemies being 30' away.

But for Dex TWF, and weapon enhancement becomes a force multiplier due to it potentially hitting more often.

As for damage dice, If you are playing off of weapon damage dice, you really need to be considering bonus damage, that's where it all comes into play. but gain, smaller dice having more potential hits should balance out.

To be fair, our campaigns go levels 1-20, so I see just how powerful 7-8 attacks with TWF can get.

[MrCharisma]

I think there are other ways to generate more attacks.

A reach weapon and Combat Reflexes will give you AoOs, and things like Cornugon Smash plus hurtful or Cleaving Finish just give bonus attacks. A high Crit modifier is akin to generating more attacks (though this is easily achievable with STR or DEX).

For specific builds a Barbarian/Primalist with Pounce and CaGM is going to be able to capitalize on AoOs and full attacks like nobody's business.

I also think there's more to effective melee than just damage. I'm a huge convert to reach tactics. If nothing else it lets you deny space more effectively (you don't even need Combat Reflexes), but outside of reach the ability to debuff enemies or somehow protect those around you is a good idea. Dazzling Display, or Bodyguard, or just being a Paladin are all ways to contribute. I haven't had a chance to try it yet, but I like the Investigator talent SAPPING OFFENSIVE (no save, deny enemy AoOs for 1 round) for it's ability to change the dynamics of the battle.

I also made a Warpriest build who uses Daggers. It took a bajillion feats and still doesn't have the damage output of a Barbarian, but Daggers have a decent crit-range, variable damage type and can be used in both melee and ranged combat. They have low damage dice, but Warpriest. Probably not the most effective, but good enough and a lot of fun.

[Wonderstell]

TxSam88 wrote:

Aside form the Vital Strike builds, all melee builds have issue with enemies being 30' away.

But for Dex TWF, and weapon enhancement becomes a force multiplier due to it potentially hitting more often.

As for damage dice, If you are playing off of weapon damage dice, you really need to be considering bonus damage, that's where it all comes into play. but gain, smaller dice having more potential hits should balance out.

To be fair, our campaigns go levels 1-20, so I see just how powerful 7-8 attacks with TWF can get.

Most melee builds have issue with enemies being 30' away. But all builds are not equally affected. If 80% of your dmg output depends on full-attacking then you are in a very different spot compared to someone with AoO generation and Swift action attacks.

I know of the potential that DEX/TWF has. But the bonus damage needs time to come online. Your 12 STR and d4 dmg dice will not carry you through the first levels. I would not want to spend five entire levels catching up to the baseline if I'm supposed to be a very powerful melee build.
Even if I played 1-20, which I don't usually do, that's still far too much time.

[TxSam88]

Wonderstell wrote:

TxSam88 wrote:

Aside form the Vital Strike builds, all melee builds have issue with enemies being 30' away.

But for Dex TWF, and weapon enhancement becomes a force multiplier due to it potentially hitting more often.

As for damage dice, If you are playing off of weapon damage dice, you really need to be considering bonus damage, that's where it all comes into play. but gain, smaller dice having more potential hits should balance out.

To be fair, our campaigns go levels 1-20, so I see just how powerful 7-8 attacks with TWF can get.

Most melee builds have issue with enemies being 30' away. But all builds are not equally affected. If 80% of your dmg output depends on full-attacking then you are in a very different spot compared to someone with AoO generation and Swift action attacks.

I know of the potential that DEX/TWF has. But the bonus damage needs time to come online. Your 12 STR and d4 dmg dice will not carry you through the first levels. I would not want to spend five entire levels catching up to the baseline if I'm supposed to be a very powerful melee build.
Even if I played 1-20, which I don't usually do, that's still far too much time.

my TWF builds usually start as archers, who typically out damage melee builds (100' range is incredible), and then switch to TWF at higher levels, but yeah, I understand your thoughts.

[UnArcaneElection]

Note that a Magus can be extremely good at Combat Maneuvers with True Strike, and starting at level 3 they get good endurance at this if they take the Wand Wielder Magus Arcana (already qualify at level 3) and get a Wand of True Strike (note that you use Spell Combat with True Strike, but you don't Spellstrike it, which is good to know if you chose something weird like Card Caster that gets melee-only Spell Combat and hurled-only Spellstrike). Other tricks: At level 7, a Magus gets access to the spell Tactical Adaptation which can give you a semi-flex bonus Combat Feat, and at level 10, a Half-Elven Magus gets access to Paragon Surge, which can give you a semi-flex feat (NOT limited to Combat Feats, so for instance could be Extra Magus Arcana (some Magus Arcana like Maneuver Mastery). For each of those spells, all later castings in the day give you the same feat you chose the first time, but that's what [ulr=https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Emergency%20Attunement]Emergency Attunement[/url] is for working around.

A Fighter that doesn't trade out Weapon Training, a Mothuni Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest, or a Myrmidarch Magus can get Advanced Weapon Training (Warrior Spirit), which can get you a full-flex Bonus Combat Feat by way of the Training enhancement (+1 cost, so easy to get) on your weapon. Note that if you have more than one flex feat method and are using them to get a temporary feat chain, use Warrior Spirit last, because it has the limitation that the Bonus Combat Feat from Training cannot be used as the prerequisite for another feat, but Tactical Adaptation and Paragon Surge do not have this limitation.

[Arkham Joker]

Here's something I was thinking about regarding this to settle it:

6th level casters can seemingly make very good all round melee builds but for a variety of different ways and styles, so lets game it out in a gladiator 3 way PVP style... :))

ARCANE

Magus vs Bard vs Summoner

DIVINE

Hunter vs Inquisitor vs Warpriest

PSYCHIC

Medium vs Occultist vs Spiritualist

The winner of each mini-tournament then goes through to the final!

Who takes it?

[Kurald Galain]

Arkham Joker wrote:

6th level casters can seemingly make very good all round melee builds but for a variety of different ways and styles, so lets game it out in a gladiator 3 way PVP style... :))

This is unlikely to resolve the argument for everyone :) that said,

Arcane: although everything depends on the dice rolls, action economy is most likely to decide this combat. Both the Magus and the Summoner can cast a spell and full attack in the same round, meaning Bard loses by default. Of the two, the Magus has to disable both summoner and eidolon (unless he can manage to make the summoner unconscious, which he doesn't really have spells for) whereas summoner only has to disable one target. Summoner wins.

Divine: largely the same reasoning. Inquisitor loses because of action economy. Warpriest loses because Hunter has an ally and he does not. Hunter wins.

Psychic: Medium probably loses because it has crappy saves. Then, again, pet class triumphs because of action economy. Spiritualist wins.

Of the three of those, summoner probably has the best debuffs whereas hunter probably has the best pets. My money is on the summoner if "chained", or hunter if "unchained". IMHO and YMMV, HTH!

[Derklord]

Senko wrote:

What would people recommend for a very powerful melee build?

As always the case with such question, there can be no general answer, because it depends on a lot of things. What makes for a powerful melee in a mythic lvl20 game is completely, fundamentally different from what makes for a powerful melee in an E6 game. A build based on a combination of classes and/or an expensive item may be powerful when starting at high(er) level, but may be utterly terrible if you start at first. And what's considered powerful differs from person to person, and what's more, is also strongly affected by campaignstyle - a campaign where every enemy is nonmagical and reachable via firm ground results in something different being powerful than a campaign full of flying, invisible, Mirror Image'd etc. enemies.

In general:
• At around 6th level, builds without a move-and-full-attack option (or extreme reach) fall off extremely hard and from then on compete with builds that have such ability when it comes to damage done.
• Most campaigns feature unreachable enemies (flying, on cliffs/walls, behind a pit/bog, etc.) to at least some extent, making options to fly or airwalk highly potent.
• Dito, although usually at a lower frequency, for vision enhancements, i.e. means to see enemies that are invisible, hidden, or affected by spells like Obscuring Mist, Displacement, or Mirror Images.
• Non-knowledge-skills and out of combat options may not improve the character in combat, but can still drastically alter the impact the character has on the campaign - this is called "narrative power".

So the questions are:
1) What level range are we talking about? A Primalist Bloodrager can pounce at 12th level, and probably outdamages an Adaptive Shifter from that point on (and at 1st to 5th level), but is significantly behind from 6th to 11th level.
2) How vanilla are the fights? It doesn't matter if you ragelancepounce for 300 damage at 10th level if you can't reach or can't find the enemy.
3) How much do you value narrative power? The unMonk ki power Empty Body lets you do all kinds of crazy things, but in combat it's only useful as an escape clause. Diplomacy, Bluff, Climb etc. might help your character in lots of ways depending on the campaign, but are useless in combat.

[Derklord]

Arkham Joker wrote:

Here's something I was thinking about regarding this to settle it: [...] lets game it out in a gladiator 3 way PVP style... :))

Stop. There's a whole lot of reasons why this is not an expedient idea, but the most important aspect: Stop equating classes with builds! Every single class in the game has a number of different build paths, and you cannot possibly evaluate any class by looking at a single build. PVP is ludicrously build dependent, the winner of the tournament would likely be either the build most adapted to PVP, or the build which happens to work best in PVP.

Other reasons why a PVP tournament wouldn't help:
• PVP is different from regular gameplay, being good in one does not equate being good in the other.
• PVP is incredibly parameter dependent (size of arena, height or arena, terrain, preparation time, etc.).
• Pathfinder is partially luck-based, and in anything luck-based, a sample size of one cannot possibly have any validity.
• Even under the best of circumstances, it's just comparing two builds at a specific level, with little significance on comparisons at other levels.

Most of the games would probably be decided by who wins initiative, and/or by who can't counter the opponent's invisibility (or flight/levitate).

[Arkham Joker]

Kurald Galain wrote:

This is unlikely to resolve the argument for everyone :) that said,

Of the three of those, summoner probably has the best debuffs whereas hunter probably has the best pets. My money is on the summoner if "chained", or hunter if "unchained". IMHO and YMMV, HTH!

Good man... its all a bit of harmless fun! :)

I should add though any archetypes could be used, so that would mean more classes could therefore get access to ACs... that could well tilt the odds, when using for example a Sacred Huntsmaster Inquisitor??

And yes with the Summoner, I would say that it would have to be the "unchained" version.

[Chell Raighn]

Arkham Joker wrote:

Kurald Galain wrote:

This is unlikely to resolve the argument for everyone :) that said,

Of the three of those, summoner probably has the best debuffs whereas hunter probably has the best pets. My money is on the summoner if "chained", or hunter if "unchained". IMHO and YMMV, HTH!

Good man... its all a bit of harmless fun! :)

I should add though any archetypes could be used, so that would mean more classes could therefore get access to ACs... that could well tilt the odds, when using for example a Sacred Huntsmaster Inquisitor??

And yes with the Summoner, I would say that it would have to be the "unchained" version.

I think he underevaluated the magus… quite a bit… his premise for the summoner having the edge is due to the existence of the eidolon… but magus can very easily rival that with the familiar arcana and a mailer familiar…alternatively the beast blade magus or naturebonded magus gets a familiar by default, or an Eldritch scion magus of the aberration bloodline with the aberrant tumor feat… all of which are eligible for the mailer familiar archetype… they might not seem a like much, but with the right choice of spells (magus has all the spells needed for this) and the maulers endurance feat, they can rival an animal companion. At this point the Magus would have the edge by getting to cast a spell and make TWO full attacks each round and has a second body on the field.

Which by the way this just highlights derklords point… depending on how you build any class it can be better or worse than any other class… there is no “one right build” you can run the test with every possible build combination and ultimately you’d end in a stalemate.

[Melkiador]

I feel like the magus outperforms the summoner past the low levels. The magus often has a high AC along with avoidance like mirror image and blur. And an eidolon that can't hit isn't that dangerous.

Meanwhile, even if the summoner makes himself or his eidolon hard to hit, the magus can still deal area damage when melee attacks don't work.

[Wonderstell]

Kurald Galain wrote:

Psychic: Medium probably loses because it has crappy saves. Then, again, pet class triumphs because of action economy. Spiritualist wins.

Ah, conundrum. If I object and say that the Reliquarian Occultist can take the Animal Domain or Chivalry Inquisition for a companion, then it's stronger by that criteria. But if you do then it's no longer a psychic caster and disqualifies itself.