Painter Worshipper of Shelyn

Chell Raighn's page

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I agree with the others regarding the drawback selection… you should either select the drawbacks yourself as a GM or have your players seek approval for their choice of drawback. For example: if a player selects Betrayed, make sure they actually intend to use sense motive before you approve it. Betrayed is one of the easiest drawbacks to ignore as a player regardless of class. For social drawbacks like that one, you may even need to force use of the associated skill check.


Yup… you’ve got it… if your not taking TWF then you can take Combat Trick whenever you want to. The main point in saving it for a specific level is to get a feat with an even level prerequisite as soon as possible, for TWF rogues that feat happens to be iTWF. For other rogue builds, it’s usually Greater Feint… if you are neither TWF nor feinting then there really isn’t anything that would necessitate taking the talent at a specific level.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
One thing to keep in mind about inspire courage is it is a moral bonus to hit.

Usually I’m the one confusing 3.5 abilities with PF… inspire courage isn’t a morale bonus to hit in PF, it’s Competence… it was a morale bonus in 3.5 though.

Also earlier you stated that the Urban Skald archetype allows the Skald to cast spells while under the effects of their raging song… the archetype is not required for that, a Skald can always cast spells while under the effect of their own raging song. Urban Skald, however, allows your ALLIES to cast spells while under the effect of your raging song.


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A fun little bonus synergy with stylish repost is to pick up Paired Opportunists and either have a way to share the feat or convince the other melee combatants in your group to take it too and stay adjacent… then you don’t even have to take your AoO from Stylsh Repost ever… since every time someone misses you by 5 or more they will provoke from you and all your friends, let them all take their AoOs and then if the foe is still standing and you think you can drop them take yours, if you don’t think they will die before their turn comes back around, then hold off to get another round of AoOs from your friends.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency doesn't have subfeatures, there aren't any subfeature in italics.

I disagree with you there… and honestly so does the FAQ you quoted… it calls out the example of Armor Training I, II, III, and IV as being seprarate sub features of the Armor Training class feature. Armor training doesn’t have any italicized text defining it to have ai features, but the FAQ clearly says that it does. It is pretty clear that a sub feature is any part of a class feature that could be considered it’s own separate element. In the case of weapon and armor proficiency it is quite obvious that weapon proficiency and armor proficiency are in-fact two separate sub features.


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A few more things to keep in mind…

Your decision to go with two clawblades or one should ultimately come down to availability of feats.

As a rogue you get BAB 6 at 8th level, which means you’ll have to make a few decisions around that time… 1) do you want to take TWF early and not really benefit much from it until 8th so you can immediately go into Improved TWF? 2) do you want to delay Improved TWF until 9th or later? 3) are there other feats you would rather have at these levels? 4) have you already taken the Combat Trick rogue talent? (I highly recommend saving it for 8th level if you do want to go the TWF route.)

Other things to consider as well are how many attacks of yours do enemies tend to survive on average. If the answer is no more than three then you might not actually want to go with TWF or might want to atleast delay Improved TWF for the time being.


There is no line in the feat that says it acts as or counts as weapon focus so, yes… they stack.


Minigiant, I think you completely missed the purpose and intent of their build… they are making a self-taught novice divine Spellcaster… it’s not so much a min-max power build as it is a viable thematic build. Summoning is only one facet of the build, and like the rest of the build is deliberately intended to not be “the best”. I can tell you from experience, sometimes the most enjoyable builds are the ones that don’t actually excell at anything. Builds that struggle every step of the way can be very enjoyable, especially when you are used to steamrolling everything and want a change of pace.


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Early on, natural claws will be the better choice. But once you hit BAB 6, the claw blades become the better option.

BAB 1-5, you can get two attacks per round at max BAB using Claws. With Clawblades you get 2 attacks at BAB-2 (TWF feat). You could also just take one set of clawblades and get one attack at max BAB and then a secondary natural claw at BAB-5. Only the first option gives you full strength to damage on both attacks, the second option requires Double Slice feat to get there, and the third will always be 1/2 Str on the second attack.

At BAB 6, however, your extra iterative attack makes it more valuable to have atleast one set of clawblades. You can either skip TWF all together and attack at +6/+1/+1 or you can go TWF+iTWF for +4/+4/-1/-1. Without TWF you will only get 3 attacks and one will always be at 1/2 strength, but with TWF you can get 4 attacks and if you take double slice all at max strength… however it is a heavy feat investment and enchanting two sets of clawblades is pricey.

Basically:
Natural claws = 2 attacks, max BAB, full strength to damage
2 clawblades = 2-6 attacks, BAB-2 w/iteratives, full strength to damage, 4 feats
1 Clawblades = 2-4 attacks, max BAB w/iteratives & BAB-5, half strength on secondary natural attack

From BAB 1-5 natural claws are 100% superior, at BAB 6 clawblades are superior and it comes down to a question of if you can afford the feat investment or not.

Note: I am aware URogue uses dex to damage, and most GMs won’t let you use Double Slice with dex to damage. So keep that in mind when weighing your options. If your GM does allow it then the TWF route is your best choice in the long run, otherwise I would suggest heavily considering the single set of clawblades option and investing your feats into some other options.

Regarding your question on natural attacks with TWF… they do not interact at all. You can TWF with your manufactured weapons or unarmed strikes and then follow up with secondary natural attacks for any limbs not using manufactured weapons… which does technically mean you could perform a TWF series of kicks and then follow up with secondary natural claws… but this is often seen as very cheesy and may result in your GM throwing a book at you.


The rules for use activated give the answer pretty well… when you reference the language of the item to the rules of use activated it’s perfectly clear. They are activated by being worn, they provide a continual effect and are a non-action activation. The “action” to gain their benefit is for the horse to wear them. While worn the horse can move without touching the ground. That’s all there is to it. No special command word, no mentally focusing, no kicking hard off the ground to get airborne, they just simply work.


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Just to add more clarity that targeting touch AC doesn’t negate the ability to use ranged spellstrike… one of the top suggested tactics for Eldritch archers is to pick up some Dye Arrows to use for spellstrikes to ensure you hit the target. It’s a weird tactic since it kinda defeats the purpose of a spellstrike by dealing no weapon damage… but it is a valid tactic nonetheless… using spellstrike with a net is perfectly valid and actually makes more sense, as with a net it’s more about adding damage to a normally non-damaging attack.. whereas dye arrow spellstrikes are about sacrificing weapon damage for a better chance to hit.


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For the arrow and bolt, it makes perfect sense to stab them, and then load and shoot that arrow/bolt… but the bullet is where things get complicated… additionally I think the “loaded bolt” in the feat was an error and should have said “unloaded bolt”…

Anyways… regarding the firearm bullet, you could reason it as either punching someone in the gut with a bullet in hand or even throwing gunpowder in someone’s face to get them to reel back, giving you space to load and fire safely, but it certainly isn’t stabbing… regardless of how you rationalize it, it still functions mechanically the same, make a melee attack, deal damage, push them back 5ft, proceed to load and fire.

Personally I might rationalize the firearm bullet part as a quick pistol whip or stock strike as hitting them with the butt of your firearm seems a bit more practical and more likely to cause the target to stumble backwards.


The way I understand it, the simulacrum has only the memories you provide it… if you make a simulacrum of yourself it can know as little or as much as you wish it to… if you make a simulacrum of someone else it knows as much about them as you do and can emulate their memories based on the details you know or assume to know. As far as the simulacrum is concerned all of its memories are real even if they are 100% inaccurate.

As for healing the simulacrum… nothing in the spell says to treat it as a construct. So yes, healing spells should work fine.

Also, despite what a lot of people seem to think, if you want to make a simulacrum of a specific individual, you absolutely must have the specific material component of a blood sample, nail clipping, strand of hair, or other genetic sample. Priceless =\= negligible price, you won’t find a nail clipping from the evil king in your material component pouch and eschew materials won’t supplement it.


Another thing to consider with Gestalt is gestalting with a class that has a heavy focus on a companion creature… Summoner for an Eidolon, Primal Hunter for an animal companion with Eidolon Evolutioms, Spiritualist or a Phantom, Undeadlord Cleric for a Skeletal Servant, Construct Rider Alchemist for a Construct, Humuncolist Alchemist for a Homunculist, or even Cavalier for a Mount… there is even the option of Instructor Wizard for a Cohort from level 1…

These options become very effective in gestalt since having a whole second class enables you to more freely focus your selective class features from the companion granting class to empowering the companion while using your other class to boost your own abilities.


It is worth noting that the Holy Vindicator’s bleed from Stigmata just can’t be stopped by magical means… fast healing or regeneration would still undo the bleed damage… but just because the damage has been undone doesn’t mean the bleed s stopped.


For option 2… the Feral Gnasher Barbarian can be a pretty nasty dirty fighter goblin….
https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Barbarian%20Feral%20Gnas her


Well it takes a little longer to setup… but Grenadier Alchemist is a nice alternative… you would want to take Fast Bombs as soon as possible so that you can throw multiple bombs per round, and if you play a goblin you can get a discovery that lets you infuse arrows and bolts with your bombs… effectively getting the same end result as the Gun Chemist but without requiring firearms.


Gun Chemist + Wizard is definitely a good build… the alchemical ordnance’s go a long ways to free up your spell slots for more utility spell casting… you can focus your extract preparation to more personal buffs if you don’t want to pick up infusion (which with full caster wizard you don’t really need), while your wizard spells are geared towards gendering foes and buffing the party. Should you need to do some blasting, you have the high power that is a firearm with explosive ammunition… if you are feeling especially daring, take the Spell Slinger archetype and cast some of your spells through your gun…


So, if you want to use a dual class prC in a gestalt game… a good houserule that would allow them without greatly increasing character power for taking one is to require all class based qualifications be within a single leveling path. Essential you can’t take a dual class prC unless you would have qualified for it as a non-gestalt character, and your second leveling path doesn’t exist as far as the prC progression is concerned. The gestalt games I’ve played in have used a variation of this houserule and it increased options without adding any extra power over what a normal gestalt character would have.

An alternative house rule that I’ve see is to count dual class prCs as being two classes so when you take a level in one you take that level on both sides of your gestalt but progress as just one level… this ruling highly discourages such prC because it ultimately causes you to fall behind the rest of the party in power with every additional level you take of the prC.


Derklord wrote:
Chell Raighn wrote:
Also, you shouldn't need a section that only applies for those who don't have the feat to understand what happens when you do have the feat. The normal section is more like a dev commentary explaining why a feat exists.

Except that there is. In case you haven’t noticed, the normal section only exists on feats that specifically alter a rule (or create a rule where there was none prior). The section is more than just a reminder of what the rule is, it tells you what rule is being altered by the feat. Nothing more, nothing less. It is effectively another way of having a feat say “instead of this”. And I guarantee you if every normal section was inserted into the benefits section in an “instead of this” format, we wouldn’t even be having this debate, we’d all agree that it only affects what it says.


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Yes… the normal line doesn’t “do anything” except for tell you how the action the feat alters works without the feat. In the case of double slice, the normal functionality is that you can only add 1/2 strength on offhand attacks. With the feat THAT rule is modified. It doesn’t call out that normally you can’t add strength to offhand ranged attacks because it doesn’t alter that rules function. As per the books how to read feats segment:

Quote:
Normal: What a character who does not have this feat is limited to or restricted from doing. If not having the feat causes no particular drawback, this entry is absent.

We can determine several the Inca about Double Slice by its normal. Several feats with Normal sections are actually far easier to understand how they function when you actually read the normal as part of the entire feat, as intended.

1) normally offhand melee attacks only get 1/2 strength and o damage - the feat lists this in its normal.
2) normally ranged attacks get no strength to damage - is not listed in the feats normal.
3) if there is no penalty or drawback associated to the action(s) affected by the feat then it is not listed.
To conclude: the lack of strength to damage on ranged attacks is not considered a penalty or drawback for not having this particular feat. So there is no penalty or drawback to override. Feats that have a normal section override and change the functionality of the normal rule they outline.

FYI: there are a few instances of feats with Normals that create rules where there previously were none. These created rules are continually held up as being RAW and RAI despite the rule never existing outside the feat’s normal. So it’s rather disingenuous to claim the normal section does nothing.


Derklord wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
However, their discount does not apply to the item, and thus the item attempts to store it as a 4th level spell, which is invalid, and thus unable to be stored.
This makes no sense, becasue the item also stores it without the metamagic, as that too isn't applied.

Where are you getting that from?


Derklord wrote:
willuwontu wrote:
The item does not discount the level of the spell it holds, therefore the spell is 4th level as far as the item is concerned, and unable to be stored.
I think you missed a part of the item description: "a spellcaster can cast any other targeted touch spell of up to 3rd level into it". You actually cast the spell in order to put it into the Spell Storing. And if you do so as a 3rd level spell (using whatever spell level is more disadvantageous) it qualifies for the armor enchantment. The item doesn't look at your spell list to determine the spell level, it simply checks the spell level you cast it at.

If you actually follow the entire ruling from that FAQ... then any metamagic spell cast with metamagic cost reductions would actually IGNORE their cost reductions for the purpose of Concentration Checks, Pearls of Power, and Spell Storing... so in the given example in this thread, the spell would in fact still be considered 4 spell levels for spell storing even though it was cast with a 3rd level spell slot.

The "most (dis)advantageous" rulings were put in place as a shortcut to a few more awkward parts of the rules. It allows for things to behave in different ways based on circumstances and bonuses or penalties applied without having to give a lengthy explanation of how each aspect should function. In the example of metamagic, it is most disadvantageous to the caster to use a higher level spell slot, and treat it as a higher level spell for things like concentration, pearls of power, and spell storing. When that disadvantageous situation is then met with an advantageous bonus, the rules automatically adjust for disadvantage. The most disadvantageous outcome is to ignore the advantageous bonus for anything that it doesn't explicitly apply to that is covered by the rule in question. For metamagic cost reductions the only thing they explicitly apply to is spell slot used, so the cost reduction applies to spell slot, but is ignored for concentration checks, pearls of power, and spell storing.

That said... this topic is the only time I have EVER seen anyone try to claim that spell storing items do not keep metamagic benefits (which FYI, Ring of Spell Storing explicitly does keep them), or that the Caster Level is any different than the caster's (obvious exception being Ring of Spell Storing, which again explicitly calls out minimum CL).

The way I have ALWAYS seen Spell Storing Weapons & Armor ran is that the CL & DC are based on the actual caster who stored the spell at the time of storing, and any metamagic applied to the spell at the time of storing functions as normal (assuming the modified spell level is still a valid spell level to be stored). Class features on the other hand... are a topic that has been hotly debated on this...


Temperans wrote:

Also important, when using retraining. If you used a class feature to qualify for something you must first retrain that something before you retrain the feature:

Quote:
The class feature you wish to retrain can’t be one that you used as a prerequisite for a feat, class feature, archetype, prestige class, or other ability. You must retrain those elements separately before you can retrain this class feature.
So in this case OP would have to retrain Bleeding Critical and then they can retrain into Ronin.

If it was retraining, yes… but the Samurai class doesn’t require retraining to become a Ronin.

Quote:
Becoming Ronin: Normally, when a samurai wishes to change his order, he must undergo a lengthy process that requires him to adhere to the edicts of his new order for a period of time before receiving any benefits. This is not the case with ronin. Once a samurai decides to become a ronin, he immediately loses all of the bonuses, skills, and abilities of his old order and gains those of the ronin order. If he wishes to once again dedicate himself to another order, he must do so using the normal rules.

They can freely at any time decide they are done with their order, immediately lose all abilities granted by it, and become a Ronin. Technically they can even do this in the middle of combat… of course joining a new order is far more involved though.


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you wouldn't lose Bleeding Critical... but you would lose access to it, and become unable to benefit from it until you acquire Critical Focus again.


it definitely is not the FAQ that I am remembering... the one I remembered was quite specifically about Sneak Attack...


I distinctly remember an FAQ restricting sneak attacks on spells to what was defined as “weapon spells”, which was the subset of spells that are valid for weapon focus and those that either become specific weapons or state that they act as certain types of weapons (example, produce flame specifically functions as a thrown weapon)… but I can’t seem to find it now… it could be that I mixed up an old FAQ for 3.5… there were a lot of stupidly excessive restrictions to sneak attack damage in 3.5 that were added through FAQs… like the “only one attack per round can have sneak attack” rule 3.5 ended up with… pathfinder sort of has the same rule but only when the multiple attacks are simultaneous (which I personally still find stupid, but it is an improvement at least)


MR CRITICAL wrote:
can sneak attack be used with spells such as acid splash??

It depends on your GMs reading of what is and isn’t a “weapon spell”… technically by RAW no… because acid splash is not a Ray, but it can be used with Ray of Frost… by RAW only Rays, Melee Touch spells, and spells that create or function as weapons can benefit from sneak attack. Which leaves a lot of ranged touch spells not benefiting from sneak attack… many GMs extend the definition of weapon spell to include any spell that requires an attack roll to simplify the bookkeeping and make it a little more consistent.


This target or not targeted debate is quite honestly pointlessly absurd. If the ability affects one or more individuals selected by the user then it is targeted.


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Honestly since you took a weapon as your bonded object, you should just invest in feats to improve your effectiveness with it… for a bow building into the Empty Quiver Style feat chain could be a wise idea.


Mithral does NOT change the armor category in pathfinder. It is treated as 1 category lighter for the purpose of movement speed only. For everything else it is still medium.

So yes, mental focus can be applied to a mithral breastplate. At the same time it cannot be applied to a mithral full plate.


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Senko wrote:
Chell Raighn wrote:
Derklord wrote:
Greylurker wrote:
Item Mastery Feats can be pretty handy, though oddly a lot of them are tied to Fort Save. I'm Currently playing a Fighter who can use his weapon to cast Dimension Door. been remarkably helpful
For a Fighter, sure. For a Witch, who has most of the spells castable with Item Mastery feats on her spell list, and gets both later access and fewer daily uses due to the lower fort save, the feats are rather underwhelming.
The main appeal of the feats to a full caster isn’t to get a spell they couldn’t otherwise cast, but rather to free up a spell slot for a different spell.
Still seems an iffy use of a feat given the other options but I'm sure there are players who have more spare feats for their casters than I tend to have.

Never said it was a good use of a feat… just that that is the appeal of them for full casters… if you happen to be a full caster with an extra feat and nothing to spend it on, then an item mastery feat could be a decent option to free up a spell slot… but generally full casters do have much better things to spend their feats on.


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Unfortunately you can only take it once.

Vigilante Talent wrote:
Starting at 2nd level and every 2 levels thereafter, a vigilante gains a vigilante talent. Unless otherwise noted, a talent can be selected only once. Some talents require the vigilante to meet prerequisites before they can be chosen, such as possessing another vigilante talent, possessing a particular specialization, or attaining a minimum level. Once a talent has been selected, it can’t be changed.

Each vigilante talent may only be selected once unless stated otherwise... and unfortunately Signature Weapon makes no note of it being selectable more than once.


Nope

dragon disciple wrote:

Requirements

To qualify to become a dragon disciple, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Race: Any nondragon.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks.
Languages: Draconic.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.


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Derklord wrote:
Greylurker wrote:
Item Mastery Feats can be pretty handy, though oddly a lot of them are tied to Fort Save. I'm Currently playing a Fighter who can use his weapon to cast Dimension Door. been remarkably helpful
For a Fighter, sure. For a Witch, who has most of the spells castable with Item Mastery feats on her spell list, and gets both later access and fewer daily uses due to the lower fort save, the feats are rather underwhelming.

The main appeal of the feats to a full caster isn’t to get a spell they couldn’t otherwise cast, but rather to free up a spell slot for a different spell.


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Lemme ask you a philosophy question: if you have Dimensional Agility, and you perform a Dimension Door as a standard action, and use your Move Action to Draw a Weapon, can you then make a 5ft step as a Miscellaneous Action because you haven't moved?

My personal stance on that is no. Because 5ft step calls out that you cannot use it in any round in which you move any distance. While I don’t count Teleport as “movement” you still move a set distance when you teleport. (And you can see my stance on that earlier in this topic even) My personal view aside, I know many in this thread will say yes because teleport is not movement.


For what it’s worth, with JJs answer, you don’t even need to “treat dimensional dervish like a charge” to get your follow through movement… his ruling gives you 30ft per bullrush (which we all agree is absurd and can’t be right), and if you go with my proposed compromise from the discussion you still get 30ft of total follow through from all your combined bullrushes.


Ryze Kuja wrote:
James Jacobs confirmed that the amount of movement you can perform while following your target during a bull rush is your total movement speed, and Chell you were even part of that discussion. So, I have no idea why you would say something like you only have 5ft of available movement in a round when you were involved in that discussion.

Right… I forgot about that answer from James Jacobs… but if you recall, my stance has always been that you could only follow 5ft on a full attack… I even called out how absurd his ruling on the matter actually makes things when applied to a full attack. So I stand by what I said still…


Ryze Kuja wrote:

You don’t need feats to make this work. Giant fist gauntlets allow free action bull rush on every unarmed strike and natural attack, and a monk would have lots of attacks, and so did this synthesist summoner with natural attacks. And I didn’t house rule anything. Dimensional Maneuvers is meant to work with Dervish, and you’re allowed to move with the target of a bull rush in the general rules, and you’re not disallowed to move with the target of a bull rush in the Dimensional Maneuvers feat. All of this is kosher per RAW.

If you want to change how any of that works, you would be one who is making up house rules. “Sorry, you can’t move with the target of your bull rush during Dimensional Maneuvers. I’m treating this as a teleport, so you can’t move with your bull rushed target.”

I know I said I was done with this topic… but seriously… you are the one using houserules in this situation. First off, you’re “story time” admits to that fact even if you didn’t straight up say “we houseruled it” you acknowledged that the rules as written don’t work for how you wanted it to work, so you used your own ruling. That is the very definition of a houserule.

Second… a monk with Giant Fist Gauntlets cannot follow a target in a flurry of blows bullrush any more than a fighter with Shield Slam can. Shield slam permits the wielded of the shield to follow 5ft on a full attack as that is the extent of their available movement, and only if they have not taken a 5ft step yet, once done they can nolonger 5ft step and any further bull rushes cannot be followed through. Using giant fist gauntlets in a full attack is no different. You have 5ft of available movement once you have committed to the full attack. The Shield Slam feat doesn’t actually “grant 5ft of movement” nor does it “arbitrarily limit them to 5ft” on a full attack, it simply restates something that is already said in the Bull Rush rules in a more concise manner.
“You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so.”
This means you have to be capable of moving in that round to follow. You can make a single 5ft step in the same round that you full attack, so you always have 5ft of movement with which you may follow through in any round, unless something prevents you from taking a 5ft step (such as slow or difficult terrain). There do exist ways to get around the single 5ft follow through limitation on full attacks though, such as the Battle Dancer Brawler or Mobile Fighter archetypes, or even the Circling Mongoose feat…

Finally, with Dimensional Dervish you do in-fact still run into the issue of you do not have any available movement to follow through beyond a single 5ft step. The distance allotted to your teleports is not available movement. Not getting to follow through doesn’t have any impact on the functionality of the Dimensional Maneuvers feat either, the feat grants you a +4 bonus on your CMB for the maneuver regardless of if you can follow through or not, and it doesn’t apply to only Bull Rush either.


Diego Rossi wrote:
yonman17 wrote:
"Spell turning also fails to stop touch range spells" I interpret this as melee touch spells not ranged touch spells.

As it doesn't specify "melee touch" or "ranged touch" it should fail to affect both.

Meter work makes a ranged touch attack in a special case, but it is an area spell. As TriOmegaZero said, it hasn't a target line.

“Touch range spells” is explicitly defined as melee touch in the magic rules. Ranged Touch spells are their own thing, this is why most effects that apply to “touch spells” don’t also apply to “ranged touch spells”.

That said, meteor swarm is not affected by spell turning because it is an area effect spell not a targeted spell. Even though the spells description allows each meteor to be directly targeted via ranged touch attack, it still remains an area effect spell fur the purposes of effects like Spell Turning.


A few things to clear some things up. After this I am done with this topic.

If the individual is on the ground, then no, there is no hover check nor would there be one that round.

If the pit opens up and they have the ability to fly, they can make a fly check to avoid the damage from the fall, but they do still end up at the bottom of the pit.
“Avoid Falling Damage: If you are falling and have the ability to fly, you can make a DC 10 Fly check to negate the damage. You cannot make this check if you are falling due to a failed Fly check or a collision.”
Do note, the skill check does nothing more than negate the fall damage, the individual still falls.

If they have any movement remaining, (note: falling does not count against their movement in any form) then they can attempt to continue their attack assuming they have enough movement remaining to reach the surface.

And lastly… ONLY Dimensional Assault is a “special charge”. Dimensional Dervish is quite clear that it is a FULL ATTACK, and Dimensional Savant is an extension of DD.
Dimensional Agility - Dimension Door doesn’t prevent further actions
Dimensional Assault - Special Charge extension of Dimensional Agility
Dimensional Dervish - Full Attack extension of Dimensional Agility
Dimensional Savant - extension of Dimensional Dervish
DD and DA are both extensions of Dimensional Agility, but neither are extensions of the other, they are completely separate actions and function 100% differently.


Name Violation wrote:

I think the disconnect in the convo reguarding DA is the "special charge" term.

Teleporting isn't movement, but charging is, so does this "special charge" use movement or not?

Also, DD doesn't use the special charge, so that has no impact on DD at all.

The important word is “special” meaning “different from, unique”… so what is “special” about the charge performed by DA? That’s easy, it’s a teleport. So in otherwords, Dimensional Assault let’s you use Dimension door to make a charge that uses teleport in place of movement. And as established teleport is not movement.


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The bards reaction to the woman’s joke was clearly a Chaotic Evil action… while he may not have actually caused her physical harm, he acted with malicious intent, performed a deed to benefit himself at the expense of another, that is by definition an evil act. So, in that sense, yes he did something wrong… as a chaotic good character they may perform unlawful acts but strive to always do good, after all right and wrong is not always as black and white as the law.

Alignment issues aside, their behavior is definitely bad… pathfinder is a group game, everyone involved is seeking the same enjoyment, and being rude at the table is not something that should be accepted or swept under the rug… from your description it’s unclear if the woman is being introduced as an NPC companion or a new PC, since your description implies both… that said, the implications of their behavior carry heavy consequences for one scenario over the other. If it is a new PC, then that sort of behavior can and most likely will cause problems at the table between the players if it is not corrected soon… if it is an NPC, then it isn’t as major of a problem, but still shouldn’t be taken too lightly, keep alignment rules in mind and enforce alignment shifts over time.


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Chell Raighn wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:

Both of you. Honestly ask yourselves the last time you saw someone perform a flying Dimensional Dervish at less than 500ft and fall to his death in the same round due to a failed Hover check.

I'm just going to wager a guess: Never.

It’s only never because no one in my group has every attempted that and our GMs keep waving the fly checks on everything… I had to remind them that fly checks were even a thing when my hawk familiar got shot by a bandit a few weeks ago. There are so many rules and checks for everything in Pathfinder that some simply get forgotten about in the heat of the moment during play. That doesn’t change the fact that the rules exist and they work specific ways. If someone were to perform a flying dimensional dervish attack and failed their fly check at the end of their turn they would in fact per the rules fall.
You thought a Hover check was when you move less than half your move speed and then said you cannot take a 5ft step in the same round you teleport, and then said the reason why is because teleport is like a 5ft step with any amount of space in between, so please don’t fault me when I don’t take your opinion on how a flying Dimensional Dervish is supposed to work.

Not “is like” it is effectively like. There is a difference, learn to recognize it.


Ryze Kuja wrote:

Both of you. Honestly ask yourselves the last time you saw someone perform a flying Dimensional Dervish at less than 500ft and fall to his death in the same round due to a failed Hover check.

I'm just going to wager a guess: Never.

It’s only never because no one in my group has every attempted that and our GMs keep waving the fly checks on everything… I had to remind them that fly checks were even a thing when my hawk familiar got shot by a bandit a few weeks ago. There are so many rules and checks for everything in Pathfinder that some simply get forgotten about in the heat of the moment during play. That doesn’t change the fact that the rules exist and they work specific ways. If someone were to perform a flying dimensional dervish attack and failed their fly check at the end of their turn they would in fact per the rules fall.


No. Phase Step is a lower level variation of dimension door, it is not dimension door nor is it considered to be dimension door. The line “ This otherwise functions as the spell dimension door” just means to refer to dimension door for the spells rules and make the changes noted in phase step. Note: it is specifically weaker, and every class that can get Phase Step also gets Dimension Door (except alchemist).


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Hover checks are required when you spend the 6 seconds of your round flying in the same square (using your Standard/Move Action for something other than moving). And I don't care if you say 1 hover check or 7 hover checks. There is no Fly check required during a Dimensional Dervish. You are not hanging out Hovering in the same square for 6 seconds. Period. End of Story.

That is flat out wrong. Hover is any time you do not actually move more than half your movement speed while flying. Teleportation is not actual movement, even though you cannot 5ft step and teleport in the same round. The reason for this is that a teleport is effectively like a 5ft step but with any amount of space between, you may be 120ft away from your starting position but you moved 0ft. How many spaces did you move through in your movement? None. How many squares did you leave in your movement, oddly enough the answer is still none. You might enter multiple squares during a teleport, it technically you never exited any of them you vanished from them. This is why you don't provoke when teleporting, you might provoke from casting a spell to teleport, but the act of teleporting itself does not provoke because you do not exit any squares.


Ryze Kuja wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Quote:

[PFS Legal] Dimensional Dervish

Source Ultimate Combat pg. 96
You teleport with a mere thought, savaging your opponents as you flash in and out of reality.

Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If your do, you can teleport up to twice your speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.

Special: A monk can use additional points from his ki pool to increase his speed before determining the total speed for this teleportation.

It doesn't mention a special charge anywhere.

It does in Dimensional Assault. Why do you think Dimensional Assault and Dimensional Dervish both are restricted to x2 movement speed? Just flatter me with your best guess.

With assault you get the benefits and penalties of a charge, meaning +2 Attack and Damage, -2AC. However it is still a teleport, not a move. But with dervish it is NOT a charge. Dervish is a full attack with a swift action teleport and

Free teleports between attacks. The distance is restricted to put it in line with other similar abilities.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Quote:

[PFS Legal] Dimensional Dervish

Source Ultimate Combat pg. 96
You teleport with a mere thought, savaging your opponents as you flash in and out of reality.

Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If your do, you can teleport up to twice your speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.

Special: A monk can use additional points from his ki pool to increase his speed before determining the total speed for this teleportation.

It doesn't mention a special charge anywhere.

He’s hung up on Dimensional Assault…

dimensional assault wrote:

You have been trained to use magical movement as part of your combat tactics.

Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you use abundant step or cast dimension door as a special charge. Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge.


It doesn’t matter which feat you use in the dimensional dervish feat chain, you teleport with all of them, therefore you do not “move up to half your speed” dimensional agility even lets you still move your full speed after you have teleported. If you elect NOT to use your movement or to not move half your speed you have to make a fly check to hover if you end your turn while still flying. With dimensional assault, you elected not to move half your speed the moment you chose to perform the full round action to use the feat. With dimensional dervish you made the decision when you chose to use a full attack action + swift action to activate the feat.

If you used that Martial Charge feat you posted or anything else that let you move normally with a full attack then you wouldn’t need to make the check.

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