Any system with opposed die rolls is inherently bad. that's what makes D&D/Pathfinder so good, it's all about single die rolls vs target numbers. simple, straightforward and most importantly, quick.
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
I've said for years that they need to support themselves on adventure paths and modules (i.e. new things for your characters to go do) instead of new rules (i.e. new things a character can do) and sales of core rules (market saturation is a thing).
So you get a good set of core rules, and publish a Great adventure every year and rely on that to be your cash cow.
We have years off experience with the 3.X system, we have lots of time and money invested in the 3.X system. we have years worth of unplayed adventure paths. we like the 3.X system and enjoy the game. We picked up pathfinder 1 because it was just an expansion on the 3.X system, we had no desire to reinvest time and money to learn a new and different system. We still feel that same way, so unless PF2 is the same as Pf1, which we're betting it's not, then we will simply stick with PF1.
our gaming group switched from D&D to Pathfinder because we did not want to learn new rules and spend time and money reinvesting in a new system. we also did not like how 4th edition D&D had dumbed-down the game. What I have seen so far in the 2.0 FAQs is that same dumbing down that made us not want to play 4th edition. Sad to say, we're saddened that Pathfinder 1.0 (based on D&D 3.5) will be losing support.
Thanks for all the input, here is how we handled it.
Each undead got a will save to resist the control of the intelligent weapons, just like a character would.
then we did opposed charisma checks to see whether the cleric or the intelligent weapons maintained controls, just like you would if two clerics were trying to control the undead via the command undead feat.
GM Hands of Fate wrote:
yep, multiple intelligent weapons. it was part of the adventure path apparently..
Dave Justus wrote:
Yes, they were undead created by the animate dead spell. Bloody skeletons to be precise.
In our last game session, the cleric created some undead, which, using the command undead feat, he ordered to arm themselves with weapons laying about. unknown to the cleric the weapons were intelligent and attempted to take control of the undead.
How do you go about determining who winds up in control of the undead?
I disagree as well, a good role player will be spreading out this skill purchases and his feat purchases into non optimised places, as well as buying "flavorful" magic items and choosing "flavorful" classes to begin with.
whereas a ROLLplayer will make only optimal choices.
been best friends for almost 30 years, group has gamed together for almost 20. we've optimized characters for most of that
the adventure paths have brought about a need for changing our level of optimization, some have caught on, others are having trouble adjusting.
"cutting off half the players" is not an option
I agree, so how do you handle it when half the players build flavorful characters and the other half go for total optimization?
we tried that, didn't work..
But yeah, we got rid of the Ferrari, and made the players all max out with Camaro's, still fast and powerful, and can be optimized, but not as awesome as the Ferrari
yeah, we are "forcing" unoptimized parties/characters by having to ban certain classes. it's not the best solution, but we are having a hard time getting our players from always optimizing their characters. So by getting rid of the classes we've seen to be most troublesome, hopefully we can bring back some of the challenge to the game.
Ryan Freire wrote:
Agreed, we're probably a bit more casual group than most, we all have jobs and we rotate GM's, none of us who GM would have time to create adventures on our own, so the Adventure Paths are a great substitute.
We are however an extremely experienced gaming group, most us having 25+ years of experience through a multitude of game systems.
Now, yeah, the AP's are written for 4 sub-optimal characters, for less experienced players, whereas we are 6, highly experienced players, who build highly optimal characters and take an optimal mix of classes. So the AP's should be less challenging to us as a whole. However, even with all that in consideration, the GM should not need to effectively DOUBLE the CR of an encounter just to challenge us.
After about 6 months of analysis and many nights of intense discussion, we determined that there are certain classes that are just over the top when it comes to the game.
Optimal Fighters deal way too much damage or are way to hard to hit for any equal CR challenge.
Certain other classes we have determined than when optimally build, just break the game as well, most notably, the Summoner, the Arcane Trickster, the Arcane Archer and a Cleric build which specializes in animating dead.
In our experience, any one of these at a semi optimal build can handle just a typical equal CR encounter by themselves, something which should take 4 characters.
We're trying to use the Adventure paths, as written, or with additions that fit the story.
Against touch attacks, having 200+ Hit points means you can take a lot of hits from touch attacks. And then when it's the fighters turn, that 200+ damage he'll put out basically takes that "ghost" out of action, since incorporeal doesn't negate damage, just cuts it in half.
And about the only saving throw a fighter is bad at is Will, Not very many monsters have effects that go against a Will save, at least not in the adventure paths.
Flying creatures however are the bane of the melee fighter. But if he was smart and picked up a bow as his second weapon and spent his spare feats there, well.. so it's not 200 damage per round, its just 150....
I agree, the fighter excels at either being an unhittable tank, or the king of damage dealing. 40+ AC is easy, and 200+ damage per turn is easy as well.
they do it so well, that in our game, the GM has to boost the CR of encounters so high to make them a challenge for the fighter than the rest of the party is not really able to compete.
That's why in our home game, we have banned the straight fighter class.
no, it will deal (3d6)*3 (you roll 3d6 and mulitply the total by 3)
Let's pretend there is another Enemy (EZ) who's stealth is 22, who chooses not to go in the surprise round. When they finally do decide to go, thus revealing themselves, who can react to them? Is it a mini surprise round, and players can only take a standard action against EZ or are they free to take full actions against EZ if they go after him?
If the Rogue was behind the BBEG, then he should be flanking. as long as a rogue is flanking then he gets sneak attack on all his attacks.
"The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target."
Diego Rossi wrote:
in a similar vein, Arcane trickster applying backstab to magic missile has been ruled that the backstab only applies once, not to each missile.
I went to a 40K tournament with a buddy once. Played the local "pity" player. you know, the guy they take pity on and don't run off, but his army is sub-par and he doesn't know the rules. His Space Marine army is also painted like the Dallas cowbys (sigh)
anyway, I have a good army, Space marines is a good matchup for me, my dice were rolling great, plus his were rolling horribly.
I proceed to destroy most of his army on turn 2 and wipe the table on turn 3.
He makes some comment along the lines of "How to you have such good dice?"
I make some comment about "I put them in solitary confinement (in the bathtub) when they roll bad, it teaches them a lesson." (I had recently read an article where some guy did that to his dice.
So the guy looks at me askance and asks, "You soak your dice in water?"
I'm like sure, whatever.
He immediately calls for a judge, calamine I'm cheating that I have loaded dice. The judge rolls some of my dice, doesn't even look and proclaims my dice as fine.
So he rage quits and leaves the store. The locals thank me for running him off. We break for lunch and then continue the tournament.
mid afternoon he calls the store we are playing in, and asks if anyone wants to buy his army, that he's getting out of the game.
This would totally ruin my gaming experience. I don't want to have a single character who is "prepared for every situation", I don't even want a party that is "prepared for every situation" . I want to have to role play the encounter and see how things wind up. Yes, that sometimes means we fail against whatever the problem is.
I also want certain "focused" characters in my party, example: I'm the weak mage who only has a few spells per day, I want a really strong tough fighter in my party who can get between me and the badguy. if he's not specialized to the point where he can take a lot of hits and deal a lot of melee damage, then he's not good enough at his job and I'll find someone else.
1. The Monk is not that bad of a character. I built up a mobile monk character was doing damage on par with a typical fighter and my AC was much higher than the same fighter.
2. this is a ROLE playing game. not a ROLL playing game. players should be allowed to play whatever they want and not really worry about optimization unless they want to.
I guess I'm not seeing that in the rules.
Rogue enters a room invisible and moves to within 5' of enemy. rogue waits 1 round, then takes a 5' step and makes an attack. enemy is surprised. enemy has not yet acted therefore enemy is flat-footed. rogue can make a full round attack with sneak attack, since he did not take a move action this round and is going before the flat-footed enemy.
I see nothing in the rules stopping that.
true, but is the sneak good for no attacks, one attack or a full attack? I can see it ruled all three ways.
wouldn't the rogue attack, become visible, but the opponent be considered flat-footed vs. the rogue since it's now in a surprise situation?
And like I said, the Sneak Attack feat takes care of all of that for you.
We've searched for a ruling on that and I believe it's up to DM discretion. We decided that "a full round attack" would all fall under surprise.
Luckily our fighter player typically has a higher Imitative than the rogue, or the rogue player will delay his action, until there is a fighter in base to base to help with flanking.
there is also the Surprise Attack feat, which leaves your opponent flat-footed for the whole round, even if they get to act.
Alex Mack wrote:
I'm gonna disagree again, as the party scout, with stealth and invisibility, you should be within a 5' step of an opponent before combat starts. And even if you aren't, most of your party will be making single attacks due to having to move to get into base to base. But for raw damage output, the best a rogue can do is TWF with backstab, which is pretty easy to get.
My Arcane trickster rogue was once charmed/dominated/etc to kill off my own party (we play in a group of 6 players), I was able to kill 4 of them before I passed the will save to snap out of it (3 out of those 4 I was able to kill in one round each)
so it wears off after 3 minutes, just reactivate it, it can be used an unlimited number of times per day. As the party scout, you should almost always be invisible except when you are reporting back to the party. So 90% of all combats should begin with you invisible.
Alex Mack wrote:
There are a couple of good feats that will grant you flanking without actually being in flank position. The trickster also has Impromptu Sneak Attack which will allow backstab damage. When I played one, I picked up a ring of invisibility early on, which easily allowed me to get backstab damage. and then the Trickster gets Invisible thief at 9th level, which is basically Greater Invisibility, suddenly All of my attacks got sneak attack.
And let's not forget that with high dex, comes high initiative, and when combined with improved initiative you'll get to go first. and in the first round of combat, the opponent is flat footed until his turn, again allowing sneak attack damage.
So over the duration of play of my character, I'd say that easily 75% of his attacks got sneak attack damage.
I disagree, TWF is the ONLY way to play a rogue. With the arcane tricksters Natural Greater Invisibility, your opponents will be denied any dex. bonus to AC. Use Flanking as much as possible. and invest in brilliant energy weapons or weapons with an element bonus. being able to roll upwards of 30 or more dice for damage is way worth it.
this is a very solid build and one I really enjoyed played. the knife master archetype is a great bonus to this, but was not available when I played. I also think going the full 10 levels of Arcane Trickster is nice.