TxSam88's page

Moving from a cap of 10d6 to an uncapped value (potentially 20d6 at level 20 if you allow stacking the Cluster bombs on the same grid intersection) is huge. You get to increase the damage at no spell slot cost and without the need for a metamagic.

It still costs multiple feats (2) to be able to use Cluster Bomb, I see no issue with allowing it to do "d6 x level", as there are plenty of spells that can already do "d6 x level" (or more: disintegrate) in those upper spell levels, Not to mention simple things like Intensify Metamagic rods exist, and the target still gets a saving throw (multiple saves?). this is not going to be a game breaker at 20th level by any means.

I have no problem allowing stacked mini fireballs

Nothing in Magic Trick says you can use more than 1 trick at a time - so I would not let you in my game. As for order of operations, the Widen spell typically is applied when you memorize the spell, the Magic Trick is applied when you cast the spell.

So, in the case of cluster bombe, a 40' fireball is memorized, but turns into multiple 10' fireballs when cast. I see no problem with stacking them, but since the damage is still 1d6/level total - it's no real benefit.

Go ahead and make it lethal combat and have healers on hand who can revie potential killed individuals - the costs are covered by ticket sales.

I'm pretty sure we know the answer to this, but want to double check and get confirmation from the Hive Mind:

If a character has both Stoneskin and Shield Other cast on him, and his hit by a normal attack which deals 20 damage. how much damage will be dealt to the character and how much will be dealt to the one who cast Shield other?

A couple of people at our table said 0 and 10. Others said 5 and 5

Be sure to look at the Weapon Shift feat tree.

Armor and Weapons have different methods to calculate costs. LoL.

** spoiler omitted **

So, Mithral chain shirt 10lb $1100 (weight is a bit off from the chain to mithral calculation) for a lrg horse or lrg tiger should be 20lbs $4400.

A druid has to avoid metal armor. That means Special Materials.
Bulette Armor, Darkleaf cloth, Dragonhide, Eel Hide, (Greenwood), (Griffon Mane), (Mind glass), Sunsilk, Throneglass, (Voidglass).

instead of buying special armor for your Wildshape form - just have the Wild enhancement placed on your regular armor.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/magic-armor-and-shield-spe cial-abilities/wild/

Azothath wrote:

I think FCOs are a hard choice costing 1 HP, especially for a class getting 1d6HP/Lvl and a Con 12 at best. I'd never base a PC design choice on FCOs.

I am constantly surprised at how very different my design philosophy is from those I meet online. I value skill points far more than hit points when it comes to favored class bonuses, and unique favored class bonuses above skill points. A simple feat makes up for the entire twenty levels of taking the hit point option, or boosting your constitution score. Same could be said about boosting your intelligence. Getting effectively three new feats (+1/6 extra X option) is far and away in a different playing field.

That being said, I tend to favor the half-elf far more than any other, so weigh my bias appropriately.

No - I'm right there with you on the FCB - I'm currently playing a Half elf Wizard exploiter and the extra spell in my spellbook each level is incredible (Coin has been tight, so no purchasing of spells, and not many spellbooks in loot drops)

the HP and Skill point that most of my co-players take stinks of lack of creativity to me.

I'm pretty sure that as long as you are adjacent to the target, you can freely touch them if they are willing. (A paralyzed/corpse has no choice).

the greater issue is when teleporting a corpse is it must be under your carry capacity.

I believe you may be looking at a fireplace.

you should ask your GM. Reign Winter part 4 has "chest" on pg 13 & 14, then 23, then 38, then 57 (part of general rewards).
I just searched the pdf for "chest".

did you look at the red circle on the map? that is not the fireplace that has the hidden chest

Park Bench

I think I found that answer somewhere when I ran the AP

TxSam88 wrote:

Joynt Jezebel wrote:

Even very intelligent monsters are not omniscient.

Slightly Disagree - I was at Gencon Working for WOTC one year, running the encounter with the Gargantuan Red Dragon. The Red Dragon has an INT over 26. I asked the designer present about how to play a Dragon with that high of a score when it comes to preparing for the party and the things the party had (like protection from energy, which the party always chose Fire)

His reply was to cheat and have the Red dragon use whatever breath weapon the party didn't prepare for.

I don't like the designer's advice. No matter how intelligent you are, you can't figure out an answer where there is nothing to go on.

His point was that the dragon would be smart enough and experienced enough to know that MOST adventurers would prepare to fight a Red dragon, so a smart Red Dragon, would not act like a Red Dragon. Hence, use Acid breath instead of Fire breath.

How else do you portray things with IQ's over 250?

You mention your 34 wisdom mythic character - therein lies the rub. a GM can "cheat" to help portray bad guys who have incredible stats. A player doesn't have that luxury, due to him being limited by their real world limitations.

which is why I make sure every challenge in my games can be solved by a die roll, and not by the players abilities (In game puzzles is the prime example of this). While it's fun to give the players a chance to solve puzzles, we have to remember that it's the Characters that are portraying them, and they need to be played to the limitations of their character.
but, that's a topic for another discussion.

Even very intelligent monsters are not omniscient.

Slightly Disagree - I was at Gencon Working for WOTC one year, running the encounter with the Gargantuan Red Dragon. The Red Dragon has an INT over 26. I asked the designer present about how to play a Dragon with that high of a score when it comes to preparing for the party and the things the party had (like protection from energy, which the party always chose Fire)

His reply was to cheat and have the Red dragon use whatever breath weapon the party didn't prepare for.

And then I realized "no, they'd put freedom of movement on everybody before the scenario started.

1. How do they know they need it

How many encounters are you having before they get to sleep? You probably need to increase this number

as a preview I'll be posting another group of lvl 5 PFS legal builds to the thread focusing on gritty low-magic builds. Right now I'm looking at;

1- Fighter-Two-Weapon Warrior 4, Gunslinger 1 with mith chain shirt, mith quickdraw shld, pistol, estoc, gladius, tonfa.
2- Bloodrager 5 with mith chain shirt, mith quickdraw shld, flambarge(bastard sword), gladius, tonfa.
3- Slayer 1 Gunslinger 4 with mith chain shirt, mith quickdraw shld, musket, estoc, gladius, sap.
4- Paladin-Divine Hunter 3, Gunslinger-MysStrngr 2 with mith chain shirt, mith quickdraw shld, musket, estoc, gladius, sap.
5- Bard 5 with mith chain shirt, mith quickdraw shld, rapier, whip, comp shortbow.
6- Ninja 4, Wizard-Diviner 1 with mith chain shirt, mith quickdraw shld, katana, wakizashi, morningstar, comp shtbow.

The multiclasses give them decent flexibility without going too hard into casting. I like duplicative gear in case someone's gets sundered. I always look at defensive fighting as they are 5th level.
Constructive ideas are welcomed. I'm sure they could be tweaked.

Is this meant co be a party given to beginners? If so, they are too complicated for first time gamers. Are you in the right thread?

Remember, most of what you describe are still limited resources - put the party on a timer, don't give them the ability to only have one encounter per day. Also - most of the BBEG will be on par or higher level than the party, with plenty of additional resources, he can do many of the same things the part can.

Well shorsen weapon have the ability to change your from weapon to staff of enchantment (of course she also have to use the craft stavr apart of the weapon enchant)

Sorshen's Sinuous Guisarme??? a unique artifact... so totally different

all transformative does for a weapon is allow it change it's physical form, from one weapon, to another. it cannot add or subtract any magical properties (aside from removing ones that don't work with the new form)

Lady Bluehawk wrote:

In addition if you have a transformative quarterstaff and transform into a evocation staff fireball to all enemies

that's not how transformative weapons work.

The main thing is you have to use an unarmed strike to use a Style Strike, Claxon.

unless you have Ascetic Style

look at the Impact weapon enhancement - it will help

Don’t forget to factor in magic armor when you are comparing a DEX based character without armor to a character using armor. The enchantment bonus of armor is just as important as the base AC. The AC bonus of a +1 mithral chain shirt has a max AC bonus (including DEX) of +11 not +8. It costs a bit more than full plate but is a lot more effective. To achieve the same result with DEX alone is going to take a 32 DEX. The enchantment bonus is also what makes using a shield worth it. The +2 bonus for a large shield is ok, but when you factor in the enchantment bonus it becomes a lot more powerful.

But you could spend the coin you would spend on +1 mithril armor and spend it on rings of protection, or amulets of natural armor, or bracers of armor, or belts of dex (or all of the above) etc. and be better than wearing the mithril +1 shirt. and most of them will apply to touch and possibly flat footed, plus the dex increase will help your initiative, skills, and possibly your to hit and damage as well.

once you get up in those realms, it's no longer a zero sum game, and other variables start to take precedence.

Like is it possible to get your dex up high enough that it's better to not use armor because of the max dex? (pretty sure the answer is no, it's not, especially as a fighter with the max dex cap increase)

Yes - Except for the fighter which gets the Dex Cap decrease, just about any other class, if it's a dex build, can get to a point that armor is actually a detriment. You'll start to see this around Dex 24, and it tops out at Dex 26. At Dex 26, you have a +8 AC bonus due to dex, and the maximum allowed by ANY armor is +8.

A 1st level character who maxes Dex starts with an 18, then can put their racial bons in it and have a 20. the 5 +1's due to level make 25, a Belt of Dex +4 is a 29. so somewhere in there, Armor becomes worthless, unless of course it's a fighter who gets the Dex Cap decrease.

I tend to play rogue/dex builds or various types, and I quite often wind up with no armor.

Honestly, I'd just build a Dex based fighter, go with no armor, Long sword and Medium shield. it won't be too difficult to have a Decent AC that way.

Then I'd look at a few of the Archetypes. Specifically:

Phalanx Soldier
Shielded fighter
Tower shield Specialist
Viking.

I especially like the Viking, whenever he is wearing medium, light, or no armor and using a shield, the Viking's shield bonus to AC increases by 1. At 7th, 11th, and 15th levels, this bonus increases by 1.

So that's a total +4 Bonus on top of what the shield gives you, plus you can pick up all the Shield feats.

Just a quick calc I was able to get the AC to 25 @ 20th lvl by pumping dex, picking a few shield feats, with a steel shield and no magic items. the Shield bonus alone was +8.

with plenty of feats left over. That's nothing to sneeze at.

Any Dex based Martial is a good start, the Swashbuckler gets Added Ac every few levels, so does the Monk. There's the Kensai Magus which gets bonus AC.

if you pump Dex, it quickly out paces normal armor, it's just hard to have the STR to do a lot of damage, but not impossible.

Quote:

But in the GM guide it says that those rules are for creatures that aren't native to the water (Like most PC's).

Do you have the specific page number of this part?

https://aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=303

pg 432

I also prefer prepared casters better than sorc/oracle for new players, as the spontaneous classes require a ton of character decisions before session 1 that you end up stuck with and will be slow to correct when they become points of regret. I’m probably in the minority on that.

I don't expect the FIRST character that a full table of newbies play to be gaining many levels. I expect them to see perhaps 3-4 games before they are scrapped and then the players build their real characters for a campaign.

I think I've already mentioned, the point of the beginning characters is to teach basics. How to attack in combat, how to move, how to do skill checks, the point of armor class, how hit points work, etc., perhaps allow them to level up a couple of times to see how that works.

So avoid any class thats complicated - this includes multi classing, characters that have have multiple changes in combat like blood ragers, etc.

I also expect the GM to have a very heavy hand in helping with those level ups - to help the player understand exactly what is happening and to avoid those bad decisions.

Remember this is a discussion about a table of nothing bot Newbies, everyone except the GM having never played before.

I also advise novices to stay away from rogues and similar classes. I am a veteran player and found them hard to make work when I tried them. You have to survive in combat with modest armor and set up sneak attacks, neither is exactly easy. I nearly always play full casters so am no expert, but it's hardly the way to introduce the game to a novice.

We have found the opposite - Rogues are one of the best characters for newbies to play. they offer more than just "I swing a sword" every round, since they are typically the scout, the lockpick, the trapfinder, etc. so it gets the player more involved in the game, and since they don't do a ton of damage in combat, tend to not be the prime targets of the bad guys.

(as for making a rogue work I find it super easy)

that's a good set of characters, but I would never give any of them to a set of Newbies.

When it comes to Newbies, I would stick to Core Races, No archetypes, no classes whose stats change due to things like rage, no multi-classing, and keep all the casters in the group as either spontaneous, or prepared, but not a mix. I would also have the number of casters in the group maxed at 2.

for Newbies, learning the games basics is key, this means employing the KISS system, Keep Is Simple, Stupid.

so
Human Fighter, longsword, halfplate. 17 Str, 16 Con, weapon focus.
Elven fighter, longbow, chainmail, 19 Dex, 15 Con, weapon focus
Dwarven cleric, warhammer, breastplate, 17 wis, 17 con, weapon focus
elven wizard, int 17, dex 15, Spell focus
halfling Rogue, 17 dex, 15 int, TWF

this is the party I would hand to 5 newbie players. if only 4 players, I would drop one of the fighters, and let them have both a longsword and longbow.

Sure - they are humans about 18-35 with some experience from DnD3.5, DnD5, PF2. [/ooc]

I would not classify anyone who's played 3.5 to be a newbie at Pf1....

Although the idea of the sorcerer and the oracle is tempting, it's not the best for beginners, since even though they provide good abilities You need to have a good understanding of the spells you choose, and you can only change one spell at level 4 every 4 levels. It's better to go for Arcanist if what you want is It's about casting a continuous spell while simultaneously testing each spell separately shaman is also a good option instead of the cleric, as for the rogue even is it good I prefer the bard, you will get a good support, skill user and a face for the party

I was just thinking that a spontaneous caster would be easier than a prepared caster. and with 2 casters already in the party, the bard would be a third, and I'd think that explaining spells to 3 players instead of just 2 would take a little too much time. Combined with the complications of the bards inspiration/performance, would just be more complications than needed for an all newbie party.

To be fair, the request for PFS legal was kind of buried down in the request. And it’s not like these threads can’t be googled up based more on title than content. So giving non-PFS options isn’t unexpected.

I do agree that Kasatha and Multi-attack shouldn’t be a default assumption though. It’s one of those things you have to ask the GM about, like playing a summoner.

Even outside of PFS, Kasatha and Multi-attack would require GM approval.

As for the original OP question.

I'd really just stick to the classics

Fighter (melee) and or Ranger (Ranged)
Cleric or Oracle - Oracle is probably the simpler to play
Wizard or sorcerer - Sorcerer is probably the easier to play.
Unchained Rogue.

But for beginners I would recommend another class that is designed to enter melee, e.g. a paladin, rather than an unchained rogue.

Unchained rogues have a lot of rather complex game mechanics. Second, you need to be able to go into melee while only wearing light armor and try to set up sneak attacks. This makes you very dangerous and vulnerable, which can easily make you dead.

Disagree - Rogues are one of the best characters for newbies to play. More complicated than a fighter type who just attacks every turn, but not overwhelmingly complicated like an inquisitor or a spellcaster.

The character has much more interaction in the game due to trapfinding and lockpicking, so the player doesn't just sit and watch during most of the game.

while we do let our new players have input in their character choice - we always try to steer them towards a rogue type.

Paladins are very bad for beginning players due to the Alignment restrictions on play.

Actually he is wrong about the need for GM approvals.

Kasatha x4 - Not a Core race = GM Approval

Multi Weapon Fighting x4 - Monster feat = GM Approval

So at least 8 GM approvals needed for the party as written, and that's before I take a close look at the classes.

TxSam88 wrote:

Joynt Jezebel wrote:

I am sure...

How about one that doesn't need an insane number of GM approvals.... one that Newbies can handle.

LoL, well if you have time to criticize (not that you're wrong) maybe you could show us how it's done by posting your group according to the initial post. Easy with a PC build tool. Building is always harder and takes more skill than tearing down.

As already mentioned, just make sure the traditional bases are covered - the traditional Fighter, Magic User, Cleric, Rogue - or anything that can replace them is a good starter party....

And since the OP was discussing NEW PLAYERS - nothing that would require GM Approval...

I am sure this is not what Azothath had in mind when starting this thread. I will present a party which is both very effective and absolutely ridiculous.

How about one that doesn't need an insane number of GM approvals.... one that Newbies can handle.

Too boost your Caster level even more, pick up a Blazing robe and the Varisian Tattoo feat.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

How about the daring champion cavalier? They get both the swashbuckler's precise strike and the cavalier's challenge. That allows them to add twice their level to damage, even if half of it is not multiplied on a critical. After the second round they can spend a swift action to double the bonus of the precises strike so they are adding three times their level. If you really want to get absurd use the VMC to gain the paladins smite evil. Now they get twice their level that does multiply on a crit, plus their level that does not multiply and it gets CHA to hit and ignores all DR. They also get another benefit depending on their cavalier order.

flying blade 3/virtuous bravo x is on my list of builds i’d be interested in trying someday (full attack at range adding 2xlevel to every hit with smite active).

I'm currently playing a Virtuous Bravado, using a Glaive (Dex build with bladed brush and mythic weapon finesse). Smiting and then using a panache to double precision damage is pretty lethal.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

How about the daring champion cavalier? They get both the swashbuckler's precise strike and the cavalier's challenge. That allows them to add twice their level to damage, even if half of it is not multiplied on a critical. After the second round they can spend a swift action to double the bonus of the precises strike so they are adding three times their level. If you really want to get absurd use the VMC to gain the paladins smite evil. Now they get twice their level that does multiply on a crit, plus their level that does not multiply and it gets CHA to hit and ignores all DR. They also get another benefit depending on their cavalier order.

flying blade 3/virtuous bravo x is on my list of builds i’d be interested in trying someday (full attack at range adding 2xlevel to every hit with smite active).

I'm currently playing a Virtuous Bravado, using a Glaive (Dex build with bladed crush and mythic weapon finesse). Smiting and then using a panache to double precision damage is pretty lethal.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/background-skills/

Not sure it solves your problem- but wanted to make sure you had seen Background skills. It's something we've been discussing about using in our home game.

That being said, I think being able to have 2xlevel in ranks is pretty broken. Our party is currently 8th level, and already we are seeing 35+ skill checks in some cases. with most DC's topping out around 30, I'm not seeing a need for making them easier

You don't need an odd race? The original didn't require a specific race at all. The kitsune is hardly an odd race, even being common in society play.

We don't play Society rules in our home game, we play by the book rules (Modified by our house rules), and Kitsune, is an "Other Race" which generally need GM approval.

But - I'll go see what I can build up and compare the 2....

Dice damage doesn't scale much, so is usually not that important. Consider unarmed attacks dealing 1 instead of 1d3. That's only an average difference of 1 more damage per hit.

Tiny beast shape gives +4 to dexterity. So, that's a total +4 to Attack. +5 to AC with the natural armor from beast shape 2. Eventual +2 to damage, which I'd personally use an agile amulet of might fists to achieve. You can two weapon fight your unarmed strikes, using your bite as a secondary attack.

0 reach isn't that bad, especially with a dip of the mouser archetype, which gives you an easier time flanking than just about anyone else for a near constant +2 to attacks.

Obviously this build will be taking every possible option to maximize their dexterity. Maybe you will just have to see it in action.

sounds pretty much like one of my typical Medium size rogue builds.

they come pretty close to that damage, ac, hit, without the costs associated with being tiny, or needing GM approval for an odd race.

TxSam88 wrote:

Oli Ironbar wrote:

So many! But first and foremost is anything with dex to damage and then going tiny sized or smaller. Did this with a swashbuckler monk and it was so very mean.

I guess I'm not seeing it, please explain?

Songbird of Doom was the main origin/popularization of it, though it's possibly more common to do it with a Kitsune with Fox Shape. There are really a lot of possible variations, but it leaves you with a melee that is incredibly hard to hit because of size and dexterity and deals a fairly large amount of damage.

I've read about the hummingbird of doom, and it's pretty nasty, but being Tiny only gives you a +2 Dex and +2 AC, and +2 To Hit, which is all nice and everything.

but their weapons are now tiny so are 2 steps lower in base dice damage, your to hit roll is still based on STR until you get weapon finesse, plus you have 0 reach, can't flank, and risk an AOO to enter an opponents square, and will typically have a movement less than 20'.

All in all, doesn't seem like that great of a trade off, and I love Dex based characters (certainly not earth shattering unless combined with something else)

I mean, it basically gives you +3 to hit (once finesse kicks in), +3 to AC, and +1 to damage overall.... unless I'm missing something, that's nothing to write home about.

The Character I played that got the most irritation out of the GM was an Undead Lord Cleric. Running around the desert with about 100HD worth of skeletal minions was pretty potent.

So many! But first and foremost is anything with dex to damage and then going tiny sized or smaller. Did this with a swashbuckler monk and it was so very mean.

I guess I'm not seeing it, please explain?

Speaking of casters, I'm really digging the Mystic Theurge I'm playing in the Return of the Runelords AP one of my groups is going through right now.

I enjoyed the Mystic Theurge, but falling being in spell progression and overall level did hurt. I found a couple of ways to help mitigate it, but it was still an issue.

Note the word "consistent"...

Impromptu Sneak Attack is limited uses per day. Invisibility lasts for only one attack. And an arcane trickster is... fragile (comparatively); not the best choice to mix it up in melee for flanking as a general tactic.

Obscuring mist and a way to see through it allows ranged sneak attacks each round (while also hiding the arcane trickster from the enemy's ranged attacks) without further actions.

with there typically only being 4-5 combats per day, I find these methods consistent enough to have backstab "most" of the time (usually using just flanking). As for being fragile.... eh, just make sure you have a good healer in the party. never have much worried about being in flanking or not as far as being hit.

An arcane trickster can be extremely effective as a blaster with ranged touch spells.

The issue is setting up consistent sneak attacks at range. One strategy before greater invisibility is available (which can be a long wait) involves obscuring mist and a way to see through it (sylph with Cloud Gazer, wizard with the Air/Smoke school, a goz mask, etc.).

Impromptu sneak attack is available at 3rd level Trickster, 7th level overall, but can cast invisibility at 3rd level overall. if built right.

depending on the character/campaign, I've also gone with the Exploiter wizard, which can use dimensional slide to get into flanking easily, and apply the sneak attack to touch spells like shocking grasp.

TxSam88 wrote:

I switch back and forth between 2WF/Sneak attack builds, ad Arcane Casters. Sometimes trying to combine them.

My Arcane Trickster was so effective at dealing insane levels of damage, that the GM banned the class for a while.

I usually think of Arcane Tricksters as utility. Were you doing most of the damage with your weapons or were you somehow combining them with magic attacks?

Arcane Trickster has access to Greater Invisibility and Haste, combining that with 2WF, and/or spells, both of which can have Sneak damage, makes for a lot of damage. at 14th level, you can have a magic missile do 5d4+5+7d6.

and suddenly that lightning bolt can potentially do 21d6 at that same 14th level, if it's intensified... add on things like Varisian Tattoo, Shocking Robe, and you hit that damage threshold earlier.

I switch back and forth between 2WF/Sneak attack builds, ad Arcane Casters. Sometimes trying to combine them.

My Arcane Trickster was so effective at dealing insane levels of damage, that the GM banned the class for a while.

I'm not sure shields are melee weapons, I think in some situations they can be used as a melee weapon, but they are listed under armor and shields, not under weapons. If I am correct, then no, they cannot trigger another attack.

Increase by level is only 1/3 of it. You also have dexterity by belts and dexterity by wishes. There are even further ways to gain dexterity but those are not the general case.

both limited by WBL and/or Caster Level, but yeah, plenty of ways to increase stuff.