IluzryMage's page

Derklord wrote:

Boomerang Nebula, do you really think the author deliberately wrote the ability to benefit highly specific class combinations in a way that no other ability in the game does, all without pointing out this oddity in any way?

2+2 should never equal 5, unless your game is set in 1984.

I don’t have a strong opinion on the author’s intent. On the one hand the Arcane Trickster already existed which has sneak attack progression one level behind the Rogue, and the Master Spy existed and has even slower sneak attack progression. I find it hard to believe that the author (a game designer) was not aware of these classes. So their intent was probably to give sneak attack a small boost. When new classes came with even slower sneak attack progression nobody thought to issue an errata, so I tend to think the designers are okay with how the Vivisectionist interacts with other classes. It clearly is not game breaking.

On the other hand the author hasn’t clarified their position so my opinion is still speculation and I’m happy to change my mind if more information is forthcoming, or someone can make a strong case otherwise.

What I do have a strong opinion on and really object to is being accused of “trolling” or “lying” for simply disagreeing on an interpretation. That is out of line.

I for one, really appreciate how you are chill about this. Makes me happy. High five.

So I already did this on reddit but I know you all like getting involved. I'll make this brief.

I'm burnt out and depressed but barbarians/bloodragers/unchained barbarians need a guide. Like badly. And not a short guide, a comprehensive, expansive guide to talk about why they are powerful, useful, and fun. I've tried to write this guide for more than a year. It has not worked. Thus I am asking the community to work together on a single document to do so.

As always, please be kind and work TOGETHER to make something for others to use. I know pathfinder 1e is a little dated but I'd like for most of the classes to at least have something they can use, for the crazy diehards out there, and barbarians are one of the few that are in DESPERATE need that I haven't done.

Link included below. Godspeed.

Reddit's Guide to Ragers

OOOH can I add this to some of my guides? I love new accurate information!

Added stuff about the psychic because...reasons.

Nice guide. :)

I do think it is possible to have a skill monkey cleric with the right archetype (Herald Caller or Cardinal for example), reasonable intelligence and a skilled race. Add in a Sage/Figment familiar for even more monkey power.

I would really love to see a section for the best cleric spells pulled from all the sources. Perhaps limit it to 4/5 or greater spells as the cleric spell list is long.

I think that is already in the guide. What do you mean from all sources?

So then, looking at Control spells we have these tiers:

Sorc/Wizard
Druid
Shaman & Witch (roughly tied)
Cleric/Oracle

There are far fewer class abilities that grant control. e.g. the arcanist's Counterspell, or the witch's hex Swamp's Grasp. The metamagic feats Persistent Spell & Extend Spell are relevant, but apply equally to each class (accounting of course for their varying spell lists).

Should we include turn/command or otherwise control undead here? For a necromancer those abilities are better categorized under the woefully named "Critters", but for a good-aligned cleric, oracle and perhaps others this seems like the right category.

From there (and reading what others have written) I think the scores should run something like:

Arcanist (8-10): best spells + counterspell
Sorcerer & Wizard (7-9): best spells
Druid (6-8): great spells
Shaman & Witch (5-7): good spells + swamp's grasp
Cleric & Oracle (3-5, 8*): some spells + turn undead

As always, what am I missing?

For clerics it really depends on domain and variant channeling. There are variant channelings that can set up difficult terrain, ones that can can force or stop movement all together which act as control.

There are also scary domains like the chaos domains aura of chaos that limits your actions or madness domain that means if you walk in here you are catching confusion and so on and so forth.

Spell list wise they actually get access to some good control spells like wall of stone, obscuring mist, and remember they ALWAYS have access to all of these spells while wizards/arcanists/witches have to go out and find them yadda yadda.

I would bump them up to a 3-6 or 7 in control if they really lean into it they can be a pain in the ass.

Made a new thread in the advice forum. Also reddit!

Also posted the cleric guide. TLDR, they are really good at most stuff besides blasting imo.

So I'ma be upfront here, I usually don't post because these threads can get icky real quick. That said, this was an important guide to me and I need as much help as I can get to make it better!

Blessed Be The Faithful (reddit post)

Blessed Be The Faithful: Iluzry's Guide To The Cleric

As always, be constructive, not cruel.

Honey, I made a guide for this.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13Iu-XQ18JqInx7b90QP_biwCjkLviiMou4oSFEp fQYM/edit#heading=h.fc65bivujegw

IluzryMage wrote:

I mean sure someones going to be bad, but I I'm not suer if the shaman is it. NOW as far as listing all of the debuff spells, do I think there are more? ABSOLUTELY! Dozens likely

Am I going to add a single one? PROBABLY NOT! Not because I don't care or don't think its worth doing mind you but I literally don't have the mental bandwith to do so!!

Honestly the only reason I replied is that someone asked for my thoughts! Yall do what you think is right! Ima just keep working on this cleric guide in the background.

The best debuff hexes are slumber, misfortune and ice tomb. A shaman doesn’t have access to the witch’s major hexes (ice tomb), but adds silk string snare — which is vs reflex saves. So that’s really pretty solid, in that the witch in only better past 10th level when she gets access to major hexes.

I then tried to list out key debuff spells, but I could well have missed stuff. Please call that out. From what I pulled together, it looks like this is a weaker area for the shaman.

And I asked, because this is a team effort. I’ve never even been in a campaign with a shaman (nor psychic). I have blind spots

OH yeah no I know you are doing your best, no harsh there, im just saying that like, i am not super commited to this effort at the moment. Later maybe!

As far as spells, there are a lot of powerful debuffs that may not look like debuffs on the surface! Like moonstruck that dazes and confuses enemies and forces them into melee, or sirocco which looks like an awful blast spell (because it is) but anyone who takes damage from it is fatigued and then EXHAUSTED which really can hurt.

Or calcific touch which is really annoying if you keep getting tagged with it- or euphoric tranquility, one of the best debuffs in the game because it basically just takes someone out of the fight!

Confusion and its dervivatives in song of discord! Mental block because WOOO even just disabling active SLAs and SUs is insane

BALEFUL SHADOW POLYMORPH IS ONE OF THE MOST HORRIFIC DEBUFFS EVER! One will save and you lose EVERYTHING.

Sunbeam and Sunburst both come with permanant blinds just...attached to them which is always a pain in the ass.

The list goes on and on and on and on because pathfinder has way too many spells that are good.

IluzryMage wrote:

Hi everyone, I somewhat exist. {. . .}

Sounds like me when I wake up.

IluzryMage wrote:

{. . .}

Honestly the only reason I replied is that someone asked for my thoughts! Yall do what you think is right! Ima just keep working on this cleric guide in the background.

Now I'm waiting to see this Cleric guide . . . which is actually relevant here.

** spoiler omitted **

I did and made the changes as appropriate I'm p sure.

I mean sure someones going to be bad, but I I'm not suer if the shaman is it. NOW as far as listing all of the debuff spells, do I think there are more? ABSOLUTELY! Dozens likely

Am I going to add a single one? PROBABLY NOT! Not because I don't care or don't think its worth doing mind you but I literally don't have the mental bandwith to do so!!

Honestly the only reason I replied is that someone asked for my thoughts! Yall do what you think is right! Ima just keep working on this cleric guide in the background.

Hi everyone, I somewhat exist.

Anyway I think druids in general are probably not the best at debuffing base but if we are including archetypes, halycon druid and feyspeaker can put down some serious hurt debuffing wise, same with any of the druids that focus around necromancy stuff.

that said, I'd probably not list them more than a 7 at most.

SHAMANS on the other hand, I WILL ABSOLUTELY fight about. Shamans get access to a lot of spell lists and even if we keep all fcbs out of this, they still get accesst to evil eye + Misfortune + chant and ritual hex and have acess to arcane enlightment and EVEN if we want to go with the whole "shamans have a bad base spell list thing" it isnt like....unusable? Its just a bit awkward because its basically the witch spell list slammed into the druid spell list. They still ahve access to debuffs like hold person, bestow curse, baleful polymorph, and dominate person like...they aren't WEAK. Deserves to be up with witch, and at the lowest one point down for max.

(not even getting into archetypes)

IluzryMage wrote:

I mean...but in that case the minimum for a wizard would be 0 because you can totally just...not get a summoning spell. .

Now you're just being either an annoying pedant or deliberately obtuse... either way stop it or leave the thread. I've no time for childish nonsense.

Yes, yes... every class should have a minimum score of 0 as they could "choose" to pick the worst spells, have no armour, no weapons, pick the worst feats, have no items and give all their money away to the donkey shelter.

Grow up.

Also in this case, if a wizard lets say, had a score of 11 and so did a druid, a wizard COULDNT choose a summoning spell, whereas the druid still has summon monster class feature...which is a meaningful difference!

So no I think all of your points are important to consider. I'm saying that we then need a idea of what is standard for each category, like what is our baseline for choices. We can't just say "if you don't specifically choose for it" because arcane casters have to make choices, and I think the point about being a cleric makes sense.

So are we saying that you picked up all of the best summoning spells? Just summon monster? Have the worst spells?

To jokers point that is aBSOLUTELY true. If everyu class chose the minimum it would be that absurd! So what is our ACTUAL REALISTIC base for this that we are all agreeing on? Are we assuming maximum casting stats? Are we assuming best armor?

What assumptions are we all agreeing about for said minimum that is allowable? I think thats very important to the nature of the discussion because if we just say "minimum without optimizing" i feel like thats way too vague for that level of comparison.

I mean but hear me out...summon monster isnt the only summoning spell. Nor is summon nature's ally. They are the BEST ones though.

I think when we take spell lists into account in this way, thats important because you are still making choices. A witch doesnt HAVE to pick up debuffing spells, but they have aCCESS to really good ones.

So are we measuring their ACCESS to good options or their baseline capablities at all times (like saves/HD/BAB).

I think this is an important difference between casters because arcane casters in general have to be selective about their spells. So if we are talking a minimum potential summoner, thats having like...mount. Unless we come up with an agreement with which spells or abilities we are specifically allowing for each category.

so if we are going minimum possible, I would say 0 because it is entirely possible for an arcane caster to build in a way that does not support summoning even slightly, whereas a divine caster will naturally have a bunch of different summoning spells that they can pick up any day whenever.

I mean...but in that case the minimum for a wizard would be 0 because you can totally just...not get a summoning spell. Like clerics get them by default because they get their entire lists but you don't...and you don't have any other abilities that would boost them.

Which like is okay, but i think is important to mention because you can just have 0 summoning capacity whereas like...

A druid doesn't have great summoning spells BUT they have a class feature that they get for free that lets them trade spells for summons...which most people don't have and is agreed to be super good.

Hmmmm

I would say how EASY it is to be good at something or how much support the class has for it inherently, based on the base chassis. So no feats, only class features, or archetypes (which might have me re review stuff)

So for a cleric that means including any one of its domains. or for an arcanist thats its exploits.

FCBs are weird because they are class and race based but i would also consider them a choice I suppose. Nothing else about races should be considered.

So a wizard is like a 2 at melee combat because none of its schools or class features make it good at melee combat.

Thats how Id think about it anyway.

Ah i've come back and this seems to have spiraled. What was the original point again?

Sneerglaw wrote:

I am currently building/playing a high level cleric that has gone into Divine disciple/ Mystic wanderer familiar build where I plan to get a Salt Mephit. The build is largely built around DMM persist but divine disciple allows you to give the familiar you get from Mystic Wanderer your first and second level spells if you want.

There are a few key spells to this build that enable your familiar to become a melee fighter. Salt mephit starts out with 17 str and power attack, which is not a bad place to start a melee character.
To keep the mephit safe I use Familiar pocket, shield other, DMM persisted channeled divine shield (10 dr for you and the familiar), which means the familiar is only ever taking half damage with a DR 10, if it can even be targeted while it moves in and out of the pocket.
For doing damage, the mephit shares all of my buffs and has my BAB. This means the mephit is benefitting from spells like DMM persisted Divine power, Divine Favor, Righteous might ETC. This puts the mephit in a good place to start swinging a 2h wep with a high attack and power attack combo ready to go.
To further improve the familiar in melee you can use aura spells like cloud of knives, Aura of cold, even something like dragon breath will go on you and the familiar.
The last benefit to be reaped from the familiar is its ability to use wands or scrolls through either UMD check or with the share spell ability from divine disciple (depending how your DM rules on familiars and wands/scrolls)

What's "divine disciple"? I just tried looking that term up on Archives of Nethys and nothing came up.

Looks like they are using 3.5 stuff

Kurald Galain wrote:

So the important question is, what actual spells would you use this with, that aren't already on the sorc list and don't have a sorc equivalent? Because the only examples we've had so far are Heal and Raise Dead, and maybe the CLW line.

CREATE WATER or PURIFY FOOD AND DRINK - seriously these spells have phenomenal roleplay or social implications.

BLESS, COMMAND, DIVINE FAVOR, FORBID ACTION, FUNERAL WEAPON, HIDE FROM UNDEAD, KNOW THE ENEMY, MURDEROUS COMMAND, REMOVE SICKNESS, SANCTUARY, SHIELD OF FAITH, WEAPONS AGAINST EVIL.

That's all I got from level 0 and level 1, but I only looked at the spells I already kinda knew.

All of these are great options but like this not only includes these spells...but spells from the inquistor that no one gets. Spells from the paladin like HOLY SWORD that no one gets. Spells from the Druid and Ranger. There is no world where you can tell me getting access to spells from every single divine spell class in the game is not good in practice. Sure you have to do a little work to get your CL up but like...its EVERY divine spell. There are more divine casters than there are arcane ones. This is REALLY REALLY GOOD.

IluzryMage wrote:

You are entirely correct! Which is why we want 3 levels in Pathfinder Savant and 2 Levels in Cypher Mage.

Pathfinder Savant is a great find.

I note that it also lets you add spells from other lists to your own, just like that. This avoids the entire issue of dealing with scrolls and action economy; for the purpose of casting any spell that you want, Pathfinder Savant does it easier (and at lower level) than Razmiran Priest. Especially with Prestigious Spellcaster.

Azothath wrote:

all the above is in the specialist wizard class, no need for archetypes or prestige classes, extra feats to make the build work, and interaction problems.

I'd like to add: wizards have a private list of wizard feats ("arcane discoveries") that sorcerers can't take. There are some good picks on that list.

Well the benefit of razimiran priest is that you can cast ANY Divine spell, not just like 10 you pick up. I would still say priest is WAY better just on the sheer variety of access you get which is insane.

Temperans wrote:

the number one thing at any level is action economy. Being able to standard action spell and then move opens up a lot more freedom (specially if you are flying or invisible).

That's a good point. A problem with the Razmiran priest is that he needs move actions to use those scroll spells in combat, and can't use metamagic on them (and casts them at minimum CL and DC). If he casts more than one, he'll probably need an additional move action to put the previous scroll away again.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

If the reason the Wizard is more powerful than the sorcerer is because of prepared casting than the arcanist should be even more powerful.

The arcanist is definitely stronger than the sorcerer. However, the wizard still gets higher level spells one level early (that is, half of the game the wizard is casting spells that arcanist or sorcerer cannot access yet) and wiz has markedly more spells per day than arc. I'd say wiz and arc are pretty much tied in terms of power.

You are entirely correct! Which is why we want 3 levels in Pathfinder Savant and 2 Levels in Cypher Mage.

3 savant gets us some neat spells and SCROLLMASTER which lets us cast at our CL (and we can use prestigous spellcaster to get our progression back) and cyphermage gets us the swift scroll cypher lore (you dont provoke for getting your scrolls and if you move 10 feet you can draw for free!!!!!) and insightful scroll for the DC (but only a few times per day..)

There are plenty of other neat scroll tricks you can do with cyphermage too, so don't be afraid to take a few more levels (like boosting your CL even further beyond!!!)

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/vttca3/iluzrys_guide_to_sh adow_spells_and_mirror_magic/

Try this, it links to the reddit thread which should have a working link.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QNlMsNANJtFLIAAVUUzZS1UKz6eb2dkMbTGYDil Mw_M/edit#heading=h.fc65bivujegw - Shadow Spell Guide

And the item would be your scrolls yeah, hopefully carried in like a spellbook or binder or something.

I have always been told that in a vacuum and a theoretical world, that Wizards and their fellow peer fully prepared casters are Tier 1, and Sorcerers and their compatriot full spontaneous casters are Tier 1.5.

I have also seen that there are ways to bring Sorcerers etc up to be on this esoteric level.

How do you do that?

What follows is my thoughts and ramblings and ultimately I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Race: Half-Elf
I think this is the best choice for 2 reasons. The first being Elf Blood which lets you grab the Human Sorcerer FCB for more spells known, and the second is PARAGON SURGE.

Paragon Surge
A combination of Shapechanger Bloodline, Emergency Attunement , and Expanded Arcana should give the Sorcerer access to EVERY Arcane Spell as needed

False Priest
Being able to use Divine items without expending them gives you even MORE spells

Shadow Spells
A high risk high reward strategy but, boosting their DC boosts the DC of the spells they are imitating, and gives you even more spells on demand.

Bloodline: Arcane
Archetype: False Priest

FEATS
1 - Skill Focus (Disguise) *Free Feat Tax
1 - Spell Focus (Illusion)
3 - Eldritch Heritage (Shapechanger) *Feat Tax
5 - Solid Shadows
7 - Emergency Attunement
9 - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shapechanger)
11 - *Metamagic*
13 - Quicken Magic
15 - Spell Perfection

It is all just theorycrafting, would love to hear what you think

As the person who wrote the shadow spell guide and the sorc guide...empathetically yes. The False Priest Sorc is imo the strongest caster in the game if built correctly, because it can potentially access the wizard, cleric, druid, and shaman lists all at once, and ALWAYS has them prepared so long as you have the item, which is the most tier 0 character possible.

If you were going to do this AND shadow spells though, I'd suggest ditching the shapechanger bloodline cheese, and leaning into shadowspell DC for your first 3 feats with spell focus, deific obedient to mallatalah, and then greater spell focus or some other feat to make it that much harder to resist.

Hello

I'm a new player who's been interested in the game for quite some time. Now I finally found a group close by where I can take part in a campaign.

But I have a bit of a wilder idea (in my sense) that I want to take to my Dm, already spoke with him on parts of the build.

Namely that I want to build a slayer that has access to illusion spells. Something like the stygian slayer but where I wouldn't be ztuck relying on magical items for the few spells I want.

Is it possible to do this through multiclassing or should I just stick to the stygian and try for the best?

Any advice is appreciated, we start the game at lvl 5.

HI FRIEND! Why not play a kitsune??? They can spend feats to get neato enchantment and illusion abilities with magical tail! And you get plent of bonus feasts, so it wont even get in the way of your normal attacks!

Well to get a 2nd level spell with Faith Magic, youd need to be Wiz 7. If you are getting a 1st level Divine spell, you might as well just do Wiz 2/Cl 1.

So mentioned this before, the main reason I didn't mention this trick is because it isn't REALLY early access. You can get 3/3 by the same time you can pick up faith magic and by that point mystic theurge isnt NEARLY as powerful.

I made this character assuming you could qualify for the prestige class with Weapon Focus (Musket) instead of Weapon Focus (Longbow), and apply all the abilities to bullets instead of arrows. I qualified with 5 levels of Gunslinger (Musket Master), so I could get dex to damage, and 3 levels of Wizard (Spellslinger), because I want that ability to shoot spells through my gun. My character sheet is on my profile. What could I do to be better at doing arcane gunslinger things?

Also picking up arcane strike and spell cartrigdes so you never have to reload again making your life 10000% easier. And they deal force damage!!!! Woo!!!!

I made this character assuming you could qualify for the prestige class with Weapon Focus (Musket) instead of Weapon Focus (Longbow), and apply all the abilities to bullets instead of arrows. I qualified with 5 levels of Gunslinger (Musket Master), so I could get dex to damage, and 3 levels of Wizard (Spellslinger), because I want that ability to shoot spells through my gun. My character sheet is on my profile. What could I do to be better at doing arcane gunslinger things?

Have you considered using eldritch archer magus which makes you really good at using spells and shooting? Eldritch archer with 1 level of spellslinger seems to be a really strong build for gun users.

mute musician bard is hilarously powerful
Wolfscarred curse oracle could probably pass
Wolfscarred curse pact wizard is also a thing

Hear me out...use a gun.

Dragons notoriously have high SR/Saves/AC and like to fight from afar....but have trash touch AC. Which means that a good gun can do some real hurt.

get you spell cartridges to do force damage on touch attacks that they probably cant resist and hit them a lot. Try an eldritch archerX /spellsplinger1

That will kill the f&#% out of a dragon.

Well I just wrote an arcanist guide, so I can probably get a crack at that one, and I'm a little obsessed with the oracle so ya know...maybe two for two? But I've already done a bunch and don't want to hog them!

I'm wondering first if Iluzry's interpretation is correct, and if it's not is essentially gaining mutagens and brew potion worth the tradeoff?

So coming back to the orginal question. RAW it 1000% works so if your DM allows it, its a fantastic idea, and is super mega worth losing a little bit of progression.

If you DM isn't a fan of how powerful such a dip is, definitely work on a homebrew with them or take that level in snakebite brawler which is also a good idea!!! Martial flexibility is fun.

zza ni wrote:

how do you read it that it doesn't Derklord?

Now I know how a windmill feels. Because that's what you're fighting here.

Also is that a Don Quixote Reference? Nice.

You all obviously have a lot more faith in paizo's desire for balance than I do.

JDawg75 wrote:

If I was DMing I would not let my player take a level of Vivisectionist at, say, level 9 and allow their wizard to suddenly have a 5d6 sneak attack.

Well, you'd need a Sneak Attack progression from the second class, but the point still stands regarding e.g. a Sandman Bard - a Sandman8/Vivisectionist1 would just from 1d6 to 5d6 with the dip.

The main issue is that Vivisectionist uses the term "effective rogue level" (ERL), ignoring that other sources of Sneak Attack don't do so.

I think since Vivisectionist does use ERL, the best way to make the stacking part work as closely to the original language without ignoring intend is to actually use an ERL calculation for the Slayer, which is ERL=Slvl*2/3-1 rounded down, with Vivisectionist added in, that's ERL = Slvl*2/3-1+Alvl rounded down, with SA dice = ERL/2 rounded up. That makes it work like Unchained's Fractional Base Bonuses, and could actually well be used for all multiclasses between SA classes/archetypes.

I mean its strong, absolutely but I don't that's really much of a problem in pathfinder were like...sacred geometry exists.

Also as far as increasing slow progression...it actually exactly says it increases slow progression, because it gives any class the multiclasses with the vivisectionist rogue progression. And it doesn't limit it to any one class, just so long as they give sneak attack, you add them together. NOW this does mean that if you were to, for some instane reason, take 20 levels in classes that all give +1d6 sneak attack, you still only end up with 10d6 instead of 20d6...which means that its impossible to get MORE progression than the rogue with a vivisectionist.

Which in my eyes, seems like a fair and fun way to handle something this powerful. It's great for classes who don't have enough and poor for classes who already have plenty.

The wording itself doesn't really seem that confusing, so I'm not sure were you are getting the idea that its NOT working as intended?

Another benefit is I can make mutagens, and boosting Str by 4 could be a wonderful help for a couple of reasons.

The downside is I delay my Slayer abilities such as advanced talents, ranger style, studied target progression, etc.

I'm wondering first if Iluzry's interpretation is correct, and if it's not is essentially gaining mutagens and brew potion worth the tradeoff?

So this isn't even my intrepretation, this is literally how the example is described

(so an alchemist 1/rogue 1 has a +1d6 sneak attack like a 2nd-level rogue, an alchemist 2/rogue 1 has a +2d6 sneak attack like a 3rd-level rogue, and so on)

If it was just meant to stack, a alchemist 1/rogue 1 would have +2d6 instead of a 1d6 of a second level rogue. So this isn't just an assumption, this is literally working as intended, by their own description.

Last week I stumbled upon the words of power system in ultimate magic. And I really really like the idea. It kind of is what I always missed in the spell casting system. And by that I mean a normal sorcerer can fast fireball for example but I can't cast a line or hit just one enemy with fire but this system makes all that possible.

I read a few guides mainly “Sorcerer Specific Guide To Word’s Of Power" by Kbrewer but that guide is almost ten years old now.
And i read the short part about it in "Building God’s Grimoire: Iluzry’s Guide to Sorcerer Spells & Spellcasting "

But before I invest a lot of time in building a character around it, I would like to hear peoples opinions about the system especially from people who have actually played it.
What do you like about it and what you don't like.
What advise would you give
What are things you missed playing it and so on.

As far as paizo goes ultimate magic is the only source right?
I also found these:
WoP Supplement
Lost Spell Words by Jon Brazer Enterprises
Energy Words Revisited by Jon Brazer Enterprises
Book of Magic: 10 Undead Spell Words by Jon Brazer Enterprises
Word of Power Unleashed by Interjection Games

All info and advise is appreciated :)

OH hey im really glad you read my guide! Or at least that part of it.

So like the others said, in most circumstances if you compare words of power to base spellcasting, its a straight downgrade. They didn't really support it after ultimate magic, so whatever spell list you had then is what you have now, and it doesn't cover the WIDE WIDE range of things a caster can do.

That said, it CAN do some things that base casters struggle with, and should best be used in that capacity. It's hilarously unbalanced in some ways, and in my opinion, easily makes one of the best blasters in the game just from PURE versatility.

So is it optimal? No. Is it UNVIABLE (meaning you wont be able to do your job)? ALSO No. Is it fun? I think so because I like the idea of weird spell blending. Really it comes down to the fantasy you want to fufill.

I think if you are planning on doing words of power, sorcerer IS ABSOLUTELY the way to go. Their bloodlines can really make up for what wordcasting lacks (the staple spells we love, pure power, unique effects), they have the easily best wordcasting list, and can make their wordspells on the fly. ABSOLUTELY.

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Good points.

(1) So Extortion > Negotiation. Figures . . . .
(2) Good addition -- I had thought about this for a while for Summoner Eidolons not built to be combat powerhouses (especially as a way to make Master Summoner's Eidolon be still useful), but apart from the lack of feats, it's true for Familiars as well, if you put some thought into it, although on the flip side, it requires more thought in the first place when you're down at levels where Improved Familiar doesn't get you the good stuff yet, and even once you get that, it's still different for specific different Familiars. Actually deserves a whole section or maybe even a whole guide of its own, and somebody even did a pretty recent one that I need to go read, and . . . hey, Iluzry, you didn't tell me you did one too!

Do you want to rework your Planar Binding writeup, or shall I take a pass at it?

'

Sorry, I was out for a bit. Here's a shot at a rewrite of Called Critters and Familiars:

Called (5 to 6 of 10, except 9 of 10 with archetype support): As a Wizard, you're stuck with the Planar Binding series of spells and the True Name Arcane Discovery, all of which mean you are basically extorting the service from whatever extraplanar creature you call up. This has its upsides and its downsides. The upsides of Planar Binding (and the True Name Discovery) are that you can do it at remarkably lower cost than Planar Ally, which requires you to give a fair payment for the services of a Planar Ally creature; and you can specify which kind of creature or even which specific creature you get. The downsides of...

You know you don't...have to extort anyone to use planar binding. You don't HAVE to call creatures that hate you, and there is even a section where you can give them gifts or bargains. Sure, they might be a little upset that they were summoned from coffee, but if you are a lawful good wizard and summon and archon to save a children from a lich, I don't think they'll really be roaring for revenge. You CAN extort people, absolutely, but it's not necessary.

I'd say go fighter 5, medium 1, ironbound X so that you get all of the figher bonus feats, you can take legendary influence to get 6 feats from the medium (one for each spirit) and the samurai bonus feats. Also can being human obviously nets you another one so ya know, thats a good number. Like 30 feats or something?

NEW MEDIUM GUIDE LETS GOOOO

^Good points.

(1) So Extortion > Negotiation. Figures . . . .
(2) Good addition -- I had thought about this for a while for Summoner Eidolons not built to be combat powerhouses (especially as a way to make Master Summoner's Eidolon be still useful), but apart from the lack of feats, it's true for Familiars as well, if you put some thought into it, although on the flip side, it requires more thought in the first place when you're down at levels where Improved Familiar doesn't get you the good stuff yet, and even once you get that, it's still different for specific different Familiars. Actually deserves a whole section or maybe even a whole guide of its own, and somebody even did a pretty recent one that I need to go read, and . . . hey, Iluzry, you didn't tell me you did one too!

Oh yeah that came with the shaman guide I also wrote and have not posted here.

As a Wizard, you're stuck with the Planar Binding series of spells and the True Name Arcane Discovery, all of which mean you are basically extorting the service from whatever extraplanar creature you call up. Clerics, Oracles, and archetypes of other things that get the Planar Ally series of spells have the edge here, because they can negotiate a deal with whatever they call up -- this may be harder to set up, but once you do, you won't have whatever you called up being as likely to want to kill you or bind you. Note that even though it doesn't say so directly, Spell Sage Wizard, by giving you access to the Cleric spell list, thereby gives you access to the Planar Ally series of spells (and you couldn't cast these in a hurry anyway even if you were a Cleric), which actually makes it a very good option for the occasional Called creature.

So what planar binding lacks in...elegance it makes up for in control. Planar Ally sends you just SOMEONE within the HD range as chosen by your DM, whereas planar binding allows you to call up specific outsiders of your choosing who you can then bargin with.

Moreover, planar binding is largely free, and the only costs you incurr are those for preparation! Moreover, because of the versatility of being able to pick your monster, you can call up creatures that cannot retaliate with ease, that you can control by other means (domination/geas/yadda) or otherwise make deals with to keep them from being a dick to you.

So in general, planar binding is better than planar ally for the use of called creatures because you can get what you want when you want instead of rolling the planar gacha machine

Lelomenia wrote:

I really endorse MrCharisma’s proposal to use ranges for all of these; lots of cases where a class is generically not very good at something, but if you build toward that thing it becomes better than other classes building toward that.

That's what I'm working toward, but need some help from other folks who know these classes in greater depth. In particular, shaman & psychic are real weak spots for me.

Lelomenia wrote:

Shaman examples are an extreme example of that in multiple ways. Going by their default spell list, they are the worst 9th level caster for spell list: i’d put them at a 3. But building for spell selection, they have by far the best effective spell list in the game (i would have them as the only 10). And it would be confusing to a reader to just toss that into ‘class features’; if someone looks at the guide wanting to build something with a strong effective spell list, they shouldn’t be pushed away from classes that are potentially ideal for that (also not clear that FCBs are ‘class features’).

Combat is the same challenge for shaman. By default, shaman is the worst divine class for combat (i’d give them a ‘4’ maybe). But building for it, i’d put them 2nd among 9th level casters built for combat (behind druid).

I'd appreciate (truly) more detail on those builds.

Ya know its funny...im writing a shaman guide RIGHT NOW.

MrCharisma wrote:

Here's a thought: Rather than giving each class a single number they could have a range.

The base Oracle for example might be a 5/10 for combat, but with the Battle Mystery, a good Curse to go with it and maybe a martial-focused archetype it could be 8/10. So instead of just saying the Oracle is 6.5/10 as a middle-ground we could say 5-8/10. Sorceres are the best blasters if you choose the right bloodlines/archetypes/etc, but without those it's not quite as good so giving it a 7-10 might be appropriate.

The entire purpose of a guide like this one is to keep it simple so you can't include everything, but giving low-high range tells a lot with very little info actually given. If a class has 3-9 in one area for example it tells us that it can be very good or quite bad, depending on the choices made. If it's 6-7 you know it's a fairly stable regardless of archetypes.

I had considered ranges of scores for just that reason. The biggest challenge is that I feel like I'd have to dig into optimizing (even without archetypes) each class across each category. I think I'm in a good position to do that for witches, just because I've really dug into them, but not for each class.

I can help with druids and sorcerers if you need it :D

HI try playing the Feyspeaker druid that has 6+int skills, is charisma based, and is a prepared full caster that gets access to some nice mind affecting abilities.

Hi its me again. Remember when I had that poll forever ago and a bunch of people asked for bard things? I am here to deliver on bard things. Not to say that this is EVERYTHING you need to know about bards, but this is what I was able to more or less put together. If you are going to leave comments, please have them be constructive, I make these guides for the community, and so as a community I want us to try to make them better.

The Show Must Go On

It also comes with a spell guide, which is mainly just ripped from my sorcerer guide so...do with that what you will!