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How do I upload a guide to the main Zenith site?


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:


The work is yours, always has been. Would you like me to move it to another doc and share that with you?

Yes please that would be much appreciated - my remaining work is almost complete and so it would be good to have it available to add to.

Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
I'll only add that you've probably been pricklier than you needed to be. I suspect this all could have been resolved more fruitfully if you'd replied with sketches of what makes a cleric stronger/weaker in a given role (as you did with the varisian pilgrim & buffing, which was really insightful), and dialed down the confrontation.

Unfortunately, this highlights the exact problem - my guide is FULL of build ideas and different approaches for the different roles.

I am not here to spoon feed people like a bunch of elementary kids exactly how every single build functions from level 1-20 and what all the various parameters are..... the ENTIRE point of the guide is to show that building Clerics is only for the experienced due to the numerous variables and options. I don't do hand holding for people over the age of 9!

"I'll open the door, but it is you that must step through."

Building a Wizard is child's play in comparison.

I unapologetically have zero time for people that can't be assed to read and critically engage with the process.

Cheers Owl


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:


Taking Kurald's feedback into account I think the Cleric & Oracle maybe top out at an 8 rather than 9. (Only updating the spreadsheet for now.)

The goal here is to pull together many peoples' ratings, to get varied perspectives & insight. Now the more someone has played, thought about, and written about (i.e. extra thinking about) a class the more value they bring to it. But no one gets an ultimate trump, certainly to include me.

There are a couple of confounding issues in combat. 1. We need to try to separate the combat chassis plus abilities from the buffing category, and 2. we want to separate the druid's animal companion from combat. But in both cases that's muddy, because of course buffing yourself is a core part of combat, as is a druid's animal companion (since taking a cleric domain is a clear minority choice). So again, it's muddy.

On this particular topic I think it's easy to look closely at an optimal combat cleric, without considering optimal choices for other classes.

What does that druid look like? Maybe a beast-shaped cat with...

I want to go our separate ways - as the author of my document, you no longer have my permission to use it in ANY part of your guide or reference it in any part of your guide. I will be uploading it as a completely separate entity to the main class guides website/document. Please remove my Cleric section immediately.

Sadly, we are just too different in approach to ratings. My guide is based on my logical, structured approach, not your vague/imprecise one, so I have no interest in trying somehow to meld it with your document... apples and oranges I'm afraid.

You say you "don't have a trump" but you clearly have been using one!

You have decided to ignore the significant overlap between the roles and this is a clear mistake IMO as the overlap unquestionably exists. My document does not ignore the overlap when it formulates ratings.

You have decided to use an optimised/un-optimised rating approach - a very vague concept. Why would anyone have any interest in the building of a PC to function in a role unoptimised? How is that useful?!

My MINIMUM/MAXIMUM approach is more logical and useful IMO and since we have differing view points, I have no wish to link my document to yours.

You are taking advice from other posters who clearly haven't (or aren't capable) engaged with my superb multi-faceted document, and applying that advice too hastily.

Building any PC for any role should require a multi-faceted approach - my document embraces this, but you clearly have other ideas for your document, which is of course fine.

I wish you all the best with your document and thanks for the work that you have put in.

Delete my contribution immediately.


Lelomenia wrote:


But if you have any deity specific buff spells, you can’t get Dreamed Secrets, and if you have Dreamed Secrets, you can’t worship Asmodeus, and if you worship Asmodeus, Varisian Pilgrim isn’t a good option.

You're missing the point (like many others) - I never said that all of these options can be used at the same time did I?

ANSWER - No

Merely that the Cleric has several options at improving its already very good buffing ability that function in different ways. A basic Cleric is superior to a basic arcane caster in several ways at buffing without even considering optimisation.


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:


I appreciate your passion, but please treat folks' opinions with legitimacy whether you agree or disagree.

- A Varisian Pilgrim has some pretty great buffs
- Samsaran/Mystic Past Life applies to every class
- Dreamed Secrets isn't necessarily available widely, since it require Lovecraft's gods
- Asmodeus is even less widely available since the vast majority of campaigns aren't set up for evil characters. Are those contract spells available to worshippers of any neutral or good gods?

Cheers

You dont have to be evil to worship Asmodeus.

Although MPL is available to any class, the Cleric makes better gains from it than most others and certainly vs the Arcanist.

The fact that GOO/OG worship is required for Dreamed Secrets is completely irrelevant since that is the entire point of optimising!! You pick the optimal choices..... fairly simple really.

Share Transmutation (Su)' is only gained at 9th level which significantly reduces it worth.


Kurald Galain wrote:


Cleric 10: yeah, that's not right. This is one of the places where it clearly shows that the cleric list is well below the wizard list. The cleric has a ton of buff spells, but all the best ones are just not there (e.g. Enlarge, Barkskin, Haste, Stoneskin), and quantity of spells is just no substitute for quality. I'd rate this 5-7, same as the oracle.

So overall, while no caster is bad at buffing, there's just no substitute for the sheer power of the wizard list. HTH.

You have no idea what you're talking about and haven't read my guide, so its no surprise that youre talking gibberish

The Max/Top score is fully optimised and a Cleric has all manner of ways of accessing additional buffing spells

An optimised Buffing Cleric is above the Wizard not below it!!

Varisian Pilgrim, Samsaran race, Dreamed Secrets, deity specific spells.. etc

A Samsaran Asmodean Cleric makes a phenomonal buffer, being able to in effect permanently hand out a huge range of spells to any party member as well as receiving a scaling bonus to D20 rolls themselves!

All manner of ways to expand options... an optimised Cleric can gain access to virtually any spell in the game. On top of being able to heal (a form of buffing).

And I would easily put it equal to the Arcanist since 'Share Transmutation (Su)' is only gained at 9th level


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:


Taking Kurald's feedback into account I think the Cleric & Oracle maybe top out at an 8 rather than 9. (Only updating the spreadsheet for now.)

No thats ridiculous, Cleric is a clear 9... easy as you like. And in fact has several advantages at the top end over a Druid. I could see how an Oracle topped out at an 8 though.

Like I said before, when it comes to the Cleric, my guide is the gospel. It is up to other people to find clear fault in my analysis, not to rely on vague opinions from people who clearly haven't read it and/or can't be assed to put a structured counter down.

Absent an accurate counter to any of my analysis, the ratings I put in to the guide are the ones to be used in the document... end of story.

If you can't follow this rule and keep to it 100%, then delete my entire contribution from the document immediately. I will simply carry on separately and post my finished article in the "Guide to the Guides", and you can put whatever comments/ratings you like in your document.


Kurald Galain wrote:

The cleric section also rates the cleric as 9 or 10 in literally everything, which is clearly an overstatement.

That's because you haven't read the guide and so haven't grasped the complexities of Cleric building vs the other classes.

People ITK on Cleric builds have been saying for years on several forums, that the key to the class is strong specialisation and understanding how all the components fit together.

I am merely the first that has tried to actually put this into a document for the masses. The notion itself has been around for quite a while.


Kurald Galain wrote:
Dude, lighten up. Your aggressive language isn't helping the discussion any.

I was not being aggressive in any way.... dont read into things that aren't there and go all SJW.

Owl has done great work putting the document framework together, but putting out misleading information into the discussion is just wrong and plain confusing/annoying, especially when the actual rationale has been stated so clearly previously.


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:


If I look at a given 9/9 caster class and see that they rate 5-8 on Combat, and I've read that that means from "unoptimized" to "optimized" then that's useful info. If I instead read that they rate from 2-8 and that's from "traded everything possible away" to "optimized" then I come away quite a bit less informed. If our ratings all look like 1-8 or 2-10 or such then I don't think we're doing anyone a service. And that's really the only reason to bother pulling something like this together: to be useful. :)

Best,
Owl

Unfortunately, when I read what you write it shows that you just dont get how the ratings work. And please dont say, "Oh I do get it... etc etc"

You dont. You just dont. Stop it.

No offence intended but nobody is putting forward 2-10 ratings for any class, so please don't propagate such nonsense.


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:


Combat, Buffing & "Critters" (still don't love that label/category) overlap, but we should try to rate them at separately as we can. Buffs that only apply to yourself & perhaps your animal companion certainly overlap with Combat.

We also need to think about various decisions having costs as well as benefits. E.g. a domain that grants an animal companion is different from a domain that optimizes combat. So a cleric in combat could have one or the other, where a druid can readily have both.

Similarly, it's hard to rate a druid in combat without considering Wild Shape, even though that overlaps heavily with Buffing.

Speaking of levels, I would still like to get base level/default scores from you for the cleric.

1) Agreed, several of the roles have significant overlap. IMO - "Combat" should mean how well that class functions quite literally by itself.

2) Errrmmm.... completely 100% the opposite in fact! A Druid chooses between an AC and a heavily restricted domain choice - it does not get both. A Cleric on the other hand CAN get both - it can take Animal/Scalykind domain and any other domain as well. In fact technically speaking a Cleric can get 2 AC... I am not aware of how even a Druid can achieve this.

3) Until there is a definitive agreement on what constitutes a "MINIMUM" score, there is no point on providing a rating. Myself and UAE are in agreement on what it means, but that is it as far as I am aware?

4) As well, a Cleric gets much better basic weapon options (as well as armour) than a Druid.


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Kurald Galain wrote:


Spell Casting

1. Wizard
2. Druid
3. Sorcerer
4. Cleric

Not in a million years! The overall Druid spell list is actually quite weak in several ways and I would in fact put Witch ahead of it.


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Kurald Galain wrote:


I'd rate cleric and oracle a bit lower than 9, because druid has shapeshift AND buff spells AND his animal, and that's really such a big advantage that I don't see cleric or oracle getting that close.

Read the guide....

Cleric can get AC very easily (and in actual fact can get 2 AC via Animal and Scalykind domains) and still have another domain to play with, has much better buffing capability, better AC, better race options, better in-combat healing

The only advantage Druid has is wildshape and even that can be replicated partially by spells.

There are several Cleric domain abilities that make excellent combat boosters.

You have to remember the ratings have a minimum level and maximum level.


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Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

I added a sheet for Combat. I'm inclined to separate out the classes a bit on their respective upper ends:

Druid 10
Cleric, Oracle 8
Shaman 6
Arcanist, Sorc, Witch 3
Wizard 1

Thoughts?

Being that I am the one doing the Cleric stuff can you take out the scores for Critters and Utility since I haven't actually done them yet!

And regarding Combat, I genuinely think there is only a hair's breadth difference between Cleric and Druid at the maximum end. And quite possibly they are equal (as stated in the guide).

Cleric gets better weapons, armour, race options and Combat spells for starters, and has more ways of healing themselves in combat effectively.

A Cleric can also access an AC easily too. Throw in all the various other options outlined in the guide and there really is nothing in it.

Also you cant just auto lump Cleric/Oracle together for obvious reasons.

To be brutally honest, my Cleric guide must be used as the basis for ALL things Cleric within the document.... no ifs buts or maybes. Its probably one of the most comprehensive on the entire internet.

If other people disagree with the assessments in my guide then it is up to them to identify where they think the faults are. It is NOT up to me to constantly have to reference it!

In summary... my guide is the Cleric gospel and thus if there are no significant identifiable flaws in a given section, then that's that!

Ps Kindly change the Cleric spell list rating to a 9

Cheers


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Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

I added a Control tab to the ratings spreadsheet and listed out some of the better control spells. Just eyeballing this it looks to me as though the tiers are:

wizard/sorc
druid
shaman & witch (rough tie)
cleric

What am I missing? Are some of these spells niche enough or too 2nd tier-ish? Are there others I'm (likely) missing?

Ratings

The Cleric is bottom tier in control?!? Me thinks someone hasn't read my guide/Bible.....

And a quick note - the Cleric spell list has to be rated at 9 not 8. It is the 2nd largest in both quantity and quality and has the advantage over even the Wizard in that the entire spell selection can be changed every day, and finally it is accessed at the earliest level possible (ie a level ahead of spont casters).


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
....

Both!

From ...."Regarding domains..."

Replaces the same bit (and onwards) in the blaster section/document. Everything before stays the same.

Obviously the Void Shard bit needs to go in the item section.

Cheers


James Jacobs himself wrote the feat and technically it was PFS legal.... where the car crash occurred was that the PFS lot decided for unknown reasons (I read somewhere that they thought they were too weird or something?!) that GOO/OG worship was illegal.

Go figure.


True.... and as I think mentioned somewhere in the Cleric section, the reality of the Shaman is that due to so many builds utilising Arcane Enlightenment (and also their inherent need for the FCB), they too won't likely have great Will saves either as if they don't put some kind of investment into their physical stats, they become very vulnerable.


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Some tweaks to the Blaster and Item sections..... 'Critter Cleric' is up next!

Regarding domains - almost any non-Cleric blasting spell can be sourced if you look around which further complicates things when building.

And looking at deity choices (see previous):

- Shizuru gets you Color Spray (technically a de-buff but worth mentioning, especially since you can cast it spontaneously), Scorching Ray and Prismatic Spray.
- Hei-Feng gets you Lightning Bolt
- Moloch gets you Flame Arrow
- Worship a GOO/OG and you of course get the always useful Dreamed Secrets. And this if you already have a decent set of domains, could be your best option since you will likely only need 1 or 2 spells to top you off.
- Rovagug gets you the amazing boon, ‘Destructive Spell (Su)’ for an aspiring Divine Paragon blaster - in essence it’s like (and possibly still better than) a Greater, Greater, Greater Spell Focus for blasters! Stack it with the actual Spell Focus feats and your enemy has no chance of passing that save DC. Would pair up brilliantly with being a Samsaran.

So in general here is how I would approach building a ‘blaster Cleric’:

First, you have to apply your race template depending on your specific plan. These are my go-to’s:

1) Human - extra feat, great FCB and useful alternate racial abilities
2) Dwarf - good stat boosts and great survivability
3) Aasimar - perfect stat boosts and access to Consecrate Spell
4) Lava Gnome/Magma Ifrit - boosts Fire/Ash domain potential
5) Tiefling - Good stat boosts, great FCB and useful alternate racial abilities
6) Samsaran - Good stat boosts, excellent spell poaching ability

Next apply your archetype.

1) Theologian - all in to the Fire/Ash domain and maxing damage and Wall of Ashes utility, but make sure you incorporate Elemental Spell into your build somehow to give you options as you reach the mid-levels. Thanks to some free MM
2) Ecclesitheurge - if you want the widest spell selection possible to give you options all the way from 1 -20.
3) Divine Paragon - I would only take this if I was a Rovagug worshipper to get free and early access to ‘Destructive Spell’ as this is a superb boost to Blasters as its applies to ALL blast spells as opposed to just one school (e.g Evocation).
4) Idealist (Plane of Fire) - +2 CL on your fire spells via Invoke Realm and spontaneous - Produce Flame, Wall of Fire, and Delayed Blast Fireball. Stacks with Theologian and Divine Paragon and PFS legal, so you may as well take it anyway. A definite booster.

Plan your specific feats/traits.

1) Dreamed Secrets - needs good WIS investment for the save, but functions like the Samsaran template, albeit smaller in number but wider in option and applicable to any race.

2) Metamagic reducers - a must have but remember you only get two. IMO for most blast spells it’s not worth giving up more than an extra level in slots for a spell - ie) an Empowered, Elemental Spell Fireball is worth a 4th level slot (factoring in your 2 MM reducers), but an Empowered, Persistent Spell Fireball is not worth a 5th level slot IMO. But hey if you’re going all in then maybe it’s to your taste?!

3) MM feats - yes of course you can buy MM rods to partly get round this, but then that’s another conversation due to cost, availability….etc. Alongside the above, you have Rime Spell (+1) which would pair excellently with Flurry of Snowballs if you were using the Samsaran template. Reach Spell (+1) has many uses and I have found it particularly useful paired with Harm for a Blaster build, since this is on the basic spell list and builds in some extra ability for the mid-levels onwards. Furious Spell (+1) is a good one to pair up with Fireball, granting you a +6 damage bonus to the damage total.

3) Vile domain - getting that Fireball CL higher!

4) Flumefire Rage - now this is only going to be of real worth to the dedicated Fire/Ash domain blaster due to its requirements - ie) CHA 15, Spell Focus, Mage’s Tattoo. Human could well be the best choice to help with the feat cost. Fortunately as a Cleric with your good Fort save, you should be able to avoid the Fatigue (DC 18 for Fireball) - curiously, this point can make this feat more useable for you than a Wiz/Sorc. It does lead onto the further potential tie-in with the spell Rage which can be accessed with a few of the domains/subdomains - although this does then have an action economy cost and also means that you can only cast damaging fire-based spells whilst it’s in effect. But then again +2 hp per die might well be worth it for you build; so it comes down to specifics.

Overall, it’s fair to say, if you know what you’re doing, the Cleric can make a very good blaster. HOWEVER, ultimately it can never truly get top tier, even when specialised, when compared to a Wiz/Sorc (whom I view as equal for differing reasons) due to its lack of bonus feats. Having extra feats or specialised blaster Arcane School/Bloodline abilities is what gives them the little bit of extra polish that they need to excel.

Obsessing about getting Spell Perfection sorted at 15th level isn't what makes a great Blaster IMO... after all blasting as a method (especially elemental types) begins to decline in efficiency notably past mid-levels. You need to make sure you can do decent damage reliably throughout your PC career.

As always though, what makes the Cleric so useful is that even if you do hyper-specialise in a given role within your party, you can still perform many other roles pretty decently as a side-hustle!

Void Shard - 250 gp

Effect - When you use a void crystal as a material component or focus for a spell of the necromancy school, the target takes a –2 penalty on saves against the spell.

A great item for any necro-Cleric and priced reasonably enough to make purchasing and using regularly definitely worthy at mid-high levels.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

Here are my thoughts on what lowest rating should represent: Not the worst you can do on purpose or by accident, but what the performance of the class would default to if you don't optimize this area because you are optimizing something else.

DING! DING! DING!..... We have a winner, finally someone with a grasp of logic!

The 'minimum' is the default ability of the class.

Further example:

For a 'Critters' optimised Wizard, its Minimum score in that role is going to be based on what the Wizard could do even if it was specialising (hypothetically) in something else (eg Blaster, Healing... etc).
And since if they were specialising in something else, you ABSOLUTELY CANNOT factor in anything but the basic class chassis when considering the minimum, since anything that can be traded out would by definition be used in trying to optimise its ability as a 'Critter' Wizard.

Which is exactly why 'Minimum' = BAB + HD + FCB + saves + Spell list


Kurald Galain wrote:


FCBs are also generally minor things that should be irrelevant to this whole discussion... except for the FCBs that add spells known to a spontaneous caster.

Complete gibberish


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:


It's concrete & objective, which is attractive. But I fear that it shortchanges some classes too much. E.g. a wizard without arcane exploits is still pretty great, while a witch without hexes is severely diminished.

But its a level playing field, so everyone loses out to a greater or lesser degree.

And you've identified the precise, key point with this discussion on 'Minimums' - the classes that have the fewest inherent class features and largest spell lists tend to be able to adjust the easiest to different roles.

Wizards and Clerics historically can be built to fulfil highly variable caster roles. Hence why they are both classed as easy Tier 1.

Why?

Because their basic core chassis is inherently versatile!!!

You WOULD ABSOLUTELY expect the minimum scores for Wiz and Cleric to be relatively high in comparison to other casters. That's just how it is.

You just don't get it do you?!?


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:


The low end of the range doesn’t represent how badly you could possibly design such a character, instead it’s the value for a generic character. Well then what’s a “generic character”? Consider a generally well-built druid with an animal companion, wild shape, and an unfocused assortment of good feats, traits, spells, and so forth.

Your definition for the minimum end of the scale is far too subjective and vague IMO.

Simplicity is the best approach:

Basic spell list + HD + BAB + FCB + human as race + feat/trait entitlement + available items = Minimum

Notice how there is almost zero subjectivity here


zza ni wrote:


idk, it's set for the spells of each level. it's not like you roll a die or depend on things like caster level that changes.

if you have deadly aim and cast the stone discus spell (ranged attack. no touch) with spell perfection i think most gm would let you double the deadly aim damage

Sadly no

By its very definition, with Furious Spell its a variable..... its effect varies depending on which spell level its applied to.

Spell focus, Spell penetration, Weapon focus (Ray)... etc all have effects that do NOT vary, they are constants, and thus why they fit the description...

"In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on."

Its not a coincedence!


Blackmill wrote:

Here's a brief overview of some aspects of sorcerer blasting. I'm not an expert, but I think this is all correct.

..

Cheers some good insight (but I haven't checked it out all yet for accuracy).... the bonuses to each die seem pretty high though?

I will have to add in some of this info to my Cleric guide as bits of it are useable.

With Furious Spell:

'A furious spell that deals hit point damage adds twice the spell’s original level to the amount of damage dealt by the spell.'

So for Fireball, this will only ever be able to add +6 damage. It wouldn't be affected by Spell Perfection (which you can only get at 15th level BTW) as the numerical bonus offered isn't set, its variable.

RE: 'Blasting' - one thing that always has to be remembered is that elemental resistances or immunities becomes increasingly common as you level up with fire being by far the most common. If you've invested all your resources in elemental blasting, you will become increasingly ineffective as you level up.

Also you have to keep track of your effective MM level. There is only limited access to MM reduction.

To really shine you need to have the versatility to be able to deal high non-elemental damage.


Kurald Galain wrote:

Frankly, I think you're in the wrong thread here. This thread is about "comparing 9th level casters", not about your personal cleric handbook. You don't seem to be comparing the cleric to anything; and that's totally fine, it just looks odd in a thread about comparing classes.

And may I politely suggest you wind your neck in and wake up!

My guide on the Cleric provides more useful information for the comparison of 9th level casters than everything else on there combined!!!

The whole point is that each class is dealt with as a separate entity and provided with ratings, so that then any reader can then step back and....."Compare the 9th level casters". It ain't rocket surgery!

Every class section is NOT supposed to explicitly make in-depth comparisons with all the other classes. That's the whole point of the ratings and the description of each separate class.

When you have made a contribution to the thread that is even 10% as impressive and generally amazing as mine, then you can start whining. :)))


Blackmill wrote:


Regarding the cleric class, I think a 9 is too generous, since an optimal crossblooded sorcerer (i.e. the benchmark for a 10) is just that much better at blasting in my opinion. But an evil cleric with spontaneous inflict wounds and hellfire ray is deserving of an 8 (i.e. "very good").

I think you need to go back and have another read at the document. In particular how I define 'Minimum' and 'Maximum' ratings, how all the class factors contribute and what makes a good blaster over the entire level ranges.

Where you see a ? or TBC that is referring to minimum levels. There were originally ratings there but since there is no current consensus on what defines a "Minimum" in a role, I took them out.

When its finished, I will get it uploaded as a separate document and a new Cleric guide and that will have the minimum values in that I define.

'Arkham's Guide to the Cleric - Putting the Puzzle Together.'


But since I'm feeling generous, that even in L1-3, and factoring in the common spells they have, Cleric gets several superior spells that Druid doesn't get or gets them delayed...

SM >> SNA (much better applications across all levels)
Cure spells
The always amazing Prot Evil..... such a glaring hole in the Druid's list.
Strand of the Tangled Knot
Barbed Chains
Sanctuary
Shield of Faith
Bless/Bane
Ally Across Time
Aid
Boneshaker
Defending Bone
Hold Person (possibly the best SOS/SOD in the game from levels 1-3??)
Grace
Make Whole

I could go on...

Druid does have a very solid list from 1-3 though

But like I said..... read my guide and digest!!!


Kurald Galain wrote:

. And perhaps you know some good L4 cleric spells that I've overlooked?

Oh no good sir, that's not how I operate....!!

Now that I've invested a huge amount of my time constructing effectively a new Cleric guide (that IMO is unique in it's multi-layered, interacting approach), I don't get into drawn-out debates anymore.

The almost complete guide is up there, so have a read and let's take it from there..... or wait for the last 2 sections (Critters and Utility) before you get back to me.


Kurald Galain wrote:
Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
My general ranking of spell lists is something like:

Really? I would say,

Wizard/Sorcerer
Druid
Psychic
Witch
Cleric/Oracle
Shaman

Because druid is across the board very strong (including BFC, summons, healing, and party buffs), and except at very high level I keep finding the cleric list rather disappointing.

Really?!?

I have Cleric at a clear #2 in terms of the core list!!

Druid is fine for 1-3 but then just falls off the cliff IMO.

But then hey, feel free to read my Cleric guide and tell me what you think!


Minigiant wrote:


Just a reminder, a Razmiran Priest can only emulate a Divine Caster starting at level 9, so by that point some spells will no longer be relevant

9th Level RP

"Look at me! I've given up some bloodline spells and powers, bought a scroll and made a couple of UMD checks, and now I can cast a 3rd level divine spell!"

9th level Wiz

"Errrm... great, have an Icy Prison (5th level spell) for your troubles."


Kurald Galain wrote:


For context, this is what we're talking about. Casting from all lists is much better in theory than in practice.

Exactly... the 100% reality of being an "effective caster" means remembering that you are in a party of 3 or 4 others PCs for starters.

Second, every single caster I have played has a "go to" selection of spells at each level that gets used pretty consistently and effectively. Its not about having the perfect spell for every situation because that's not possible and also many times during the adventuring day you will need that same spell several times. A spell that is only 80% perfect for several different scenarios is overall much better than a spell that is 95% perfect for one specific scenario.

Thirdly, physical survivability is very important. This comes from your fellow PCs having your back and having the saves/AC/hp to cope. When I GM, I DO NOT EVER do the cheesy, crappy DM style of "let the casters stand at the back and cast uncontested." My bosses are not stupid....

I will send hails of arrows at you, I will have Rogues and Ninjas stalking you, I will target your familiar, I will try and steal your spellbook while you sleep, I will get my own casters to target you, I do have in my employment Dwarven APs and Barbarians that serve as my bodyguards and my assassins.

Casters are very dangerous, so as a BBEG I will 100% prioritise attacking you.

The basic advantages that prepared have over spontaneous are:

1) Getting spells one level earlier
2) Being able to change out their spells every day much easier

Everything else is 100% up in the air in terms of builds!!


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Northern Spotted Owl wrote:


That's an interesting perspective, and one I hadn't considered. First let's consider the base classes, without archetypes.

Wizards -- just have their base spell list
Clerics -- add domain spells
Druids -- choose between an animal companion OR a cleric domain
Shaman -- a few races have an FCB that adds a cleric (or more rarely other) spell to their list AND a shaman hex (Lore/Arcane Enlightenment) adds any single wizard spell for 1 hour/day

I won't go into every class, but those are reasonably representative. Here's how I think about them:

Wizards -- should be scored by their base list
Clerics -- might as well add in the general value of two good domain choices (same with witches, etc)
Druids -- most players choose an animal companion, so I'd just consider the base list
Shaman -- let's assume that everyone takes this racial FCB, but maybe not Arcane Enlightenment (or is it so good that everyone ought to take it?)

But that's my take. What do folks think?

My thoughts on this are pretty clear...

This whole exercise is about 'Roles' not spell lists.

Now for some classes (eg Wizard/Sorceror/Psychic) their ability to perform a given caster role can only be defined by their spell list since they have a very low level of physical ability. However, for other classes their innate physical ability does impact on their ability to perform certain roles - a good example is healing or buffing. Being survivable contributes to your ability to perform the roles.


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Here's another..... feedback liked as always!

BLASTER

Rating: TBC - 9

Another real toughy…. definitely the hardest for me to rate out of the roles.

I think first and foremost, to be a good+ blaster, you need to have options from spell levels 1-9. This doesn’t necessarily mean that you need to have loads of blasting spells, more that the spells you do have can cover your likely adventures/encounters for the PC levels 1-20 and be effective with it.

Although everybody has read various guides on being a ‘Fireball Wizard/Sorceror specialist…. etc’, even those builds have ways of bullet-proofing themselves against resistances and such, eg) Admixture school for Wizards. And even then once you get into the mid levels and beyond, creatures often have multiple resistances or immunities. So having non-elemental ways of dealing damage becomes increasingly important.

In terms of the minimum for a Cleric, it gets a relatively low score, due to lacking direct damage spells in the lower levels (eg. 1-3) in its core list, and in general AOE damaging spells at the mid levels. There are exceptions but in terms of the core list, the Cleric is mainly a single target blaster until mid-high level.

However, using Human as the base race template, you do get the excellent +1 vs Outsider SR as your FCB, largely alleviating the need for investing in Spell Penetration feats.

Here are the low level spells:

Barbed Chains, Inflict Light/Moderate/Serious Wounds, Magic Stone, Admonishing Ray, Deadeye’s Arrow, Eroding Ray, Shard of Chaos, Spear of Purity, Holy Javelin, Iron Stake, Lightning Lash, Screaming Flames, Searing Light, Trial by Fire and Storm of Blades.

Things then definitely improve in the mid-levels (4-6), but still lacks any significant AOE damage spells, although the mass inflict spells do at least get around the selectivity problem of some AOE damage spells and are not subject to the more common energy resistances:

Chaos Hammer, Inflict Critical Wounds, Fleshworm Infestation, Forceful Strike, Healing Flames, Holy Smite, Order’s Wrath, Positive Pulse, Summoner Conduit, Terrible Remorse, Unholy Blight, Boneshatter, Flame Strike, Mass Inflict Light/Moderate Wounds, Holy/Unholy Ice, Harm, Cold Ice Strike, Elemental Assessor, Hellfire Ray and Undeath to Death.

At the higher levels (7-9), the Cleric is basically either as good or better as any other caster, containing both good single target and AOE spells:

Destruction, Mass Inflict Serious/Critical Wounds, Umbral Strike, Death Clutch, Earthquake, Fire Storm, Orb of the Void, Implosion, Soulreaver, Stormbolts, Symbol of Death, Canopic Conversion, Cursed Earth, Energy Drain, Massacre, Polar Midnight, Scourge of the Horseman and Storm of Vengeance.

Implosion is a very interesting one - on the surface it seems very similar to Wail of the Banshee and could be seen as slightly worse due to the fact that is not an AOE spell, even though due to its long duration can affect many creatures over time. However, it is in fact better for several reasons - WOTB only affects living creatures, is both a Death and Sonic spell (by mid-high level many enemies will be immune or at the minimum have significant resistances) and although AOE, it can only affect any creature once. Implosion, can if the Cleric desires, continue to concentrate on one target and so potentially inflict a minimum 170-200 hp per round for the cost of only 1 spell. It is also an Evocation spell - and since many blast spells are Evocation too, this makes investing in Spell Focus type feats even more worthwhile. And being that it is neither Death or Sonic based, far fewer creatures will have any immunity. TBH IMO by the time you get to higher levels, life-threatening danger is much more likely to come from a BBEG rather than groups of mooks. It is noteworthy that in PF2 it is the Wizard that gets Implosion on its core list, whereas the Cleric is given WOTB.

In terms of items to boost blasting then the natural candidates are, MM rods, Wizard’s Hook, Prayer Beads, Candle of Evocation and Incense of Meditation.

Now…… at the maximum end, things change dramatically for the Cleric in terms of options!

From a race perspective, if you were a Tiefling (like Human) and had been taking + 1 vs outsider SR up to 10th level as your FCB, you would be very likely to overcome any SR you came across.

Using the ‘Samsaran template’ you would have a couple of options to boost your blast ability:

Hunter - Snowball, Frostbite, Explosion of Rot, Aggressive Thundercloud, Flurry of Snowballs, Pinecomb Bomb, Burst of Nettles, Burning Entanglement, Call Lightning, Ball Lightning and Ice Spears

Adept - Scorching Ray, Lightning Bolt

Aasimar (and Consecrate Spell - Metamagic) has uses for both a Theologian specialist (Fire/Ash) but also an Ecclesitheurge who wants as part of their toolkit to have some extra blasting potential. I would say though the difference between maximised and empowered, isn’t as much as you might think when you actually do the maths:

For example, a maximised 10 D6 fireball is 60 hp, but an empowered one is 53.25 hp, so when you factor in that Consecrate Spell is only vs evil creatures and Empowered Spell is vs anyone, in the long run Empowered Spell may be better.

On the other hand Aasimar (+2 WIS and +2 CHA/CON/CON) has no ability score downsides and their bonuses are basically ideal for a Cleric.
Alternatively, Lava Gnome/Magma Ifrit (+2 CON, +2 CHA, –2 Strength / +2 CON, +2 INT, –2 DEX) although certainly don’t have as good ability score bonuses, do both offer a +1 CL bonus on both domain spells and powers from the Fire/Ash domain which is significant; especially since a Theologian is already +2CL for the domain powers and can stack with Foundation of Faith (Plane of Fire). Take your pick really.

So you can see when it comes to race choice for a Blaster Cleric it is trcky. For example, It could well be that a Samsaran Ecclesithuerge of Yamatsumi is the most optimal blasting choice if you want to have the best options from l - 9:

Burning Hands, Snowball, Fireball, Fire Seeds, Ice Storm, Cone of Cold, Disintegrate, Explosion of Rot, Burning Entanglement, Flurry of Snowballs, Ball Lightning, Pinecomb Bomb and Polar Ray are now part of your spells…….. ON TOP of all the spells from the Cleric list! You could then take ‘Riming Spell’ and/or ‘Elemental Spell’, ‘Intensified Spell’ MM to improve your effectiveness.

Regarding domains - almost any non-Cleric blasting spell can be sourced if you look around which further complicates things when building.

And looking at deity choices (see previous):

- Shizuru gets you Color Spray (technically a de-buff but worth mentioning, especially since you can cast it spontaneously), Scorching Ray and Prismatic Spray.
- Hei-Feng gets you Lightning Bolt
- Moloch gets you Flame Arrow
- Worship a GOO/OG and you of course get the always useful Dreamed Secrets. And this if you already have a decent set of domains, could be your best option since you will likely only need 1 or 2 spells to top you off.
- Rovagug gets you the amazing boon, ‘Destructive Spell (Su)’ for an aspiring Divine Paragon blaster - in essence it’s like (and possibly still better than) a Greater, Greater, Greater Spell Focus for blasters! Stack it with the actual Spell Focus feats and your enemy has no chance of passing that save DC. Would pair up brilliantly with being a Samsaran.

Overall, it’s fair to say, if you know what you’re doing, the Cleric can make a very good blaster. HOWEVER, ultimately it can never truly get top tier, even when specialised, when compared to a Wiz/Sorc due to its lack of bonus feats. Having extra feats or specialised blaster Arcane School/Bloodline abilities is what gives them the little bit of extra polish that they need to excel.

As always though, what makes the Cleric so useful is that even if you do hyper-specialise in a given role within your party, you can still perform many other roles pretty decently as a side-hustle!


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Minigiant wrote:

They buy an Arcane Scroll. They are still arcane casters and still use the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Their UMD will be lower, but it works just the same.

But they wouldn't have to make a UMD roll to emulate an ability score?


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Here's a Sorceror question for you experts...

A Celestial/Empyreal Sorceror wants to buy an arcane scroll - being that they are WIS based, how does this work?!


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Northern Spotted Owl wrote:
Your updates are cut/paste in Arkham. Thanks again for the good work.

Cheers... much app

There was a small omission in the text to be added...

Snowball, Wall of Fire, Burning Sands, Thunderstomp, Euphoric Cloud, Wall of Thorns, Aqueous Orb, Thorny Entanglement

Snowball provides a nice low-mid level blast/control option as it can be used in conjuction with Rime Spell (and a MM reducer) to get an entangle effect.


orric897 wrote:

Afternoon Everyone,

I am currently playing a 2 handed paladin 10. My question is, is it common for there to be monsters that can't be hit with a natural 19? I rolled a 19 + 4 for smite to hit + 19 from BAB/STR/Weapon for a total of 42 and did not hit the AC of some undead pirate. At that point I kind of checked out of the fight, If I can only hit things on a nat20 it doesn't feel good.

I am planning on talking to my DM at some point, but I also wanted to get other opinions.

Thanks!

I wouldn't take it personally. After all if the enemy isnt hit on a 42 then that applies to anyone.


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Afternoon...... a tweak and a couple of updates - cheers!

CONTROL

Rating TBC - 10

This was a toughy as ‘Control’ can be a difficult concept to define precisely in order to rate it. However, I gave it a go! IMO ‘Control’ is influenced by mainly spell/SLA/Su options, but also there is a physical component, in that a physically capable PC can have a significant ‘Control’ option too. After all you can’t tell me a suitable optimised martial character (either ranged or melee) doesn’t have an ability to limit an opponent’s options? I have been in several adventures where invisible Ninja’s or sneak-attacking Rogues have wiped out party casters within 2 rounds. A suitably built Dwarven Barbarian is an absolute nightmare opponent for most spellcasters!!

Finally, there is also a significant degree of overlap I think between the ‘De-buff’ and ‘Control’ roles. For example, if you are hit with a blindness effect, are you weakened? Yes. Are your options now limited? Yes again.

At a minimum, and taking into account the Cleric’s de-buff spells that could also be employed, the following spells could be used:

Entropic Shield, Grasping Corpse, Shadow Trap, Stone Shield, Stunning Barrier, Boneshaker, Darkness, Enthrall, Fear the Sun, Shackle, Shatter, Spiritual Weapon, Spiritual Ally, Sun’s Disdain, Zone of Truth, Chain of Perdition, Deeper Darkness, Invisibility Purge, Spotlight, Wall of Bone/Blindness/Deafness/Clockwork/Stone/Split Illumination/Silver, Waveform, Blade Barrier, Constricting Coils, Animate Objects, Forbiddance, Symbol of ……., Control Weather, Glyph of Warding, Cursed Earth, Rift of Ruin, Maw of Chaos and Roaming Pit.

At the maximum end, you could for easy starters use the ‘Samsaran template’ and Hunter List to grab any of these:

Wall of Fire, Burning Sands, Thunderstomp, Euphoric Cloud, Wall of Thorns, Aqueous Orb, Thorny Entanglement

Worshipping Deskari gets you Create Pit and Acid Pit as bonus spells, Hei Feng gets you Gust of Wind and Hydraulic Push, Grandmother Spider gets you Web and I thought about doing a Combat/Control build using Nivi Rhombodazzle with Greater Invisibility - you wander the battlefield invisible causing mayhem with control spells and a bit of smashface! As an Evangelist and Exalted you would get some great boons, including True Strike.

As well, there are several options from the domains including, Earth (Caves) giving several of the ‘Pit’ spells, Earth (Metal) giving Wall of Iron, Fire giving Wall of Fire and Wall of Ash, Void (Isolation) giving Wall of Force and Prismatic Wall and Artifice giving Wall of Iron. Oceans subdomain has a very useful control ability in ‘Surge (Su)’. And of course a Cleric of a GOO/OG could fill in a couple of gaps using Dreamed Secrets.

TBH my max rating of 10 doesn’t at all mean that I think the Cleric is the best at ‘Control’ amongst the 9th level casters, more that a role-optimised Cleric is as good as anything else out there. What you have to remember is that being able to swap out your entire spell list every day is a big plus point for any role, especially when it is generally regarded as being the 2nd best spell list in the game. With archetypes and items enabling you to swap out domain powers and spells every day too, this only adds to the gravy!

Tielfing: Standard is +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma (various options apply)

A real out of left field option here, but it does have some potential, albeit in niche circumstances.

Out of the sub-races, the following are most apt for a Cleric and offer various possibilities for various build/role types:

Asura-Spawn (Faultspawn): +2 Dex, +2 Wis, –2 Int
Demodand-Spawn (Foulspawn): +2 Con, +2 Wis, –2 Int
Devil-Spawn (Hellspawn): +2 Con, +2 Wis, –2 Cha
Oni-Spawn (Hungerseed): +2 Str, +2 Wis, –2 Cha
Qlippoth-Spawn (the Motherless): +2 Str, +2 Wis, –2 Int

I particularly like the Hellspawn option for an Asmodean Cleric if only for the homage to ‘Spawn’! But there are some good combat options there too.

There are some useful alternate traits too - Fiendish Sprinter, Prehensile Tail, Darklands Guide and Soul Seer being noteworthy; the latter being particularly thematic for any necromantic focussed build. Lastly and crucially, it has the most excellent Cleric FCB of a +1 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome the spell resistance of outsiders.

I’ve never seen a Tiefling Cleric at a table, but there is definite potential here.

Water

Here the Flotsam subdomain and ‘Sift (Su)’ does give some interesting applications with randomly pulling out scrolls of 1st- 2nd level spells. Due to the broken condition (not broken at 12th level) it uses 2x charges/uses as normal so initially you would have to put twice as many spells on the scroll to compensate. And a UMD check would be needed for any arcane spells. Nevertheless, at 6th level, 300 gp gets you a scroll with 6 effective uses of Mage Armour (1 hr duration) or 3 effective uses (2 hour duration) on it. For a niche Utility build it could well be very useful.
Also the Ice subdomain is good - provides better spells with the substitution of, 7th—freezing sphere, 9th—polar ray and ‘Body of Ice (Su)’ gives you a nice temporary immunity to cold damage and some DR.
Finally, the Oceans subdomain is another upgrade on the base domain. Slipstream and Tsunami are useful buff and control spells, and ‘Surge (Su)’ is a very useful low-mid level ability since it can be used for buffing and de-buff/control purposes. You could use it to move allies out of dodgy situations or get them into advantageous positions or pull/push enemies around the battlefield. Lots of useage will give you plenty of mileage.


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:


For example, the ecclesitheurge is pretty much as bad at melee as a wizard. But I don't think it's helpful to indicate that the cleric's lower end of melee matches the wizard's. That is a 6-9 range seems helpful to a player, while a 1-9 range seems so broad as to be unhelpful. [Cool. I just checked your rating and it's in fact 6-9.]

Yeah I think its best for the moment you remove the minimum scores as (no offence meant) you don't understand what I mean and are getting confused!

When I did the minimum score for 'Combat' on the Cleric, I didn't use Ecclesitheurge as my template since that is an archetype itself! Minimum scores by definition cannot be based on archetypes.

The simple reason why a Cleric has a higher minimum score on 'Combat' than a Wizard has NOTHING to do with archetypes, armour, arcane schools, bonus feats, domains... etc. These are all features that can be traded out, vary wildly and thus exist above the class skeleton.

It is because Clerics have a spell list that is better suited to 'Combat' builds, it can effectively be a D10 HD class (via the FCB) with minimal/no loss of casting ability and so are more survivable than a Wizard, and will in general have much better saves than a Wizard which again makes them more survivable.

This is the key point you're not getting and why we're talking cross-purposed..... the minimum score for ANY caster in ANY role has NOTHING to do with builds. It is simply based on the skeleton of the class chassis since that is the minimum level of ability that is always there, irrespective of the situation. That's it - simple.

Do you get it?


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:


Arkham, I don't think we're that far apart here. To my mind the minimum should still...

We're way apart I'm afraid.

This isn't just about the Cleric this is about the concept of ratings for all the classes.... in order to have a "minimum" rating there MUST BE a measure/metric that can be applied equally to any of the classes, otherwise its a nonsense and meaningless.

The only way this can be done is to literally and logically view 'Minimum' as...

In the worst case scenario how could Class X perform in Role Y?

In all cases, the minimum (aka worst case) ability of the caster class in any given role is represented and determined by only its spell list, BAB, HD, standard feat/trait allocation and use of Human as the standardised race for comparative purposes.

Any factors that can be traded out in Archetypes.. etc cannot by definition be viewed as the "minimum".

The 'minimum' is defined as the factors that can be always present in any given build and role.

For example with the Wizard, its bonus feats cannot be part of the minimum as there are many archetypes that trade these out in varying degrees.

Please take out my Minimum scores ASAP. I wont be putting any Minimum scores in any more until at the very least there is a mutually agreed upon definition amongst all the contributors.

The amount of time and effort I've put it in will not be wasted!

Cheers mate


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Northern Spotted Owl wrote:


I do think scores should reflect reasonably well-built characters. In the case of a cleric, a couple better than average domains and spontaneous healing/harms.

Well then we have a bit of a problem!!

My minimum rating doesn't factor in anything except the skeleton of the chassis.... not even armour!

Saying a minimum score should reflect "reasonably well-built characters" is highly subjective and certainly not something that can be standardised. Comparing the bare chassis of each class is a lot easier to quantify.

This is in essence what the 'Minimum' score is describing...

You have a specialised/maximised 'Blaster' of Class X. Even with this specialisation how well could it also still perform in the Heal/Buff/Utility/Combat... etc role?

ie) Even in the worst case scenario, what is the class capable of doing in the role X?

The only way you can rate this 'minimum ability' is by looking at the bare bone chassis (HD, BAB, spell list.. etc), as this represents its minimum level of capability in any other given role.

The bare bones score will vary slightly between different roles because of the nature of the class, Eg) a Cleric will have a significantly higher minimum score in the 'Heal' role than it will in the 'Blaster' role, due to its spell list not having as many blast spells as heal/condition removal and having a more survivable chassis, which is more useful in the 'Heal' role as you will need to be able to get to your allies if they are in need of help.

My logic is sound.

As it stands all of my Cleric minimum scores would need increasing if we used your metric! This would be very misleading IMO.

Until we get some sort of agreement between all the contributors, could you remove all the minimum scores from my guide please. If we're not all singing from the same hymn sheet then any rating is pointless!

Cheers


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UnArcaneElection wrote:


Tieflings also get this.

Cheers.....a Tiefling Cleric probably isn't going to make that much of an impact on any build, but the ability to grab the alternative FCB, still get a +2 on WIS, as well as some interesting options.....eg) Prehensile Tail for permanent wand carrying or Soul Seer (enormously thematic for any necromancer/Undead Lord) certainly warrants a mention. I put it in the next update.

LOL....The fact that one of the Subraces is actually a 'Hellspawn' is great just by itself! Todd McFarlane would be proud!


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A couple of tweaks/additions and the latest chunk....

Human: Floating +2

Humans are a popular choice for Clerics, especially since they receive Bonus Feat and Skilled. In a class that is both feat and skill starved this is always a solid choice. Overall, a Human can be used for any of the roles and in particular ones that would benefit from the extra feat (eg Critters, Blaster).

Also Clerics are unique amongst the classes in that they can receive a very good alternative FCB if they are Human, namely:

Add a +1 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome the spell resistance of outsiders.

This is excellent since Spell Resistance is one of the banes of a caster’s life at higher levels, and this massively increases your casting potency. And you don’t have to take it every level either to reap its benefits……… An often overlooked bonus.

Suitable archetypes: All and probably especially so with more feat intensive options like Herald Caller, Theologian, Ecclesitheurge.

Divine Scourge

An interesting archetype, attempting to introduce a ‘Witchy/Hex’ element into the Cleric class - in reality it gives up too much/too restrictive for what it receives in return…… a common theme with many Cleric archetypes!

HOWEVER, if you are determined to become a specialist de-buffer Cleric then there are some plus points:

1) By RAW a worshipper of any deity can take it
2) The Curse sub-domain, whilst definitely being one of the more mediocre, does have a couple of good domain spells and ‘Malign Eye (Su)’, which would be of use if you are specialising in your
de-buff spells.
3) It trades out Channelling for some hexes. You can pick up ‘Slumber’ at 3rd level if you want which is one of the best Witch hexes in the game and certainly ‘spamworthy’ at the low-mid levels! Also ‘Evil Eye (Su)’ is generally good for helping you AND your allies land their offensive spells, especially when it gets boosted to a -4 penalty at 8th. However, it is a mind-affecting effect so there will be an increasing number of opponents immune to it as you level up….. still pretty useful though.

Overall, a bit like Blossoming Light in that you give up too much to become a specialist. The only real highlights for me are the ability to pick up ‘Slumber’ and ‘Evil Eye’ hexes at the lower levels which are good, but you could probably do a better de-buff build using other methods. It’s OK, but a bit…. MEH!

Death

Here the ‘Undead’ subdomain gets you ‘Ghoul Touch’ and ‘Enervation’ as useful domain spells and ‘Death’s Kiss (Su)’ enables you at 1st level to start healing from Neg. Channelling if you want to. Solid for any Necromancer/De-buff build and a natural fit for Undead Lord.

DE-BUFF

Rating 7 - 9

At a minimum, although the Cleric spell list may not have the sheer volume of de-buff spells that the Wiz list does or the innate breadth/depth of hexes of the Witch, the ones it does have a very good.

Bane, Barbed Chains, Burning Disarm, Command (+Greater), Doom, Forbid Action (+Greater), Hallucinogenic Smoke, Murderous Command, Ray of Sickening, Hold Person, Silence, Burst of Radiance, Chains of Light, Archon’s Aura, Bestow Curse (+Major), Charitable Impulse, Light of Iomedae, Prayer, Debilitating Portent, Plane Shift, Symbol of Sleep/Pain, Wall of Blindness/Deafness, Banishment, Plague Storm, Wither Limb, Archon’s Trumpet, Energy Drain, Anti-Life Shell, Anti-Magic Field, Source Severance and Holy Word/Blasphemy are all very solid spells that cover the full range of levels.

From a maximising perspective, and from my own personal experience, the following can not only be encounter-ending at their appropriate levels, but in certain cases definitely worth investing in MM feats/traits (eg Persistent Spell, Reach Spell).

Burning Disarm, Silence, Burst of Radiance, Hold Person, Bestow Curse, Greater Forbid Action, Plane Shift, Holy Word/Blasphemy.

As well, Investing in CL boosting feats/traits/items and using Holy Word/Blasphemy can basically trivialise encounters, especially if you’re a Human Cleric utilising the alternative FCB. On a different approach, Variant Channelling offers the possibility of Rulership and its ‘Dazing Channel’ harm effect, although this does require a specialist negative channeller to work properly which can be tricky in terms of return in investment (outside of Undead Lord).

Using the ‘Samsaran template’ and the Hunter spell list can boost your lower level de-buff options with any of the following:

Entangle, Hydraulic Push, Ice Slick, Sickening Entanglement, Earth Tremor, Blast of Wind, Geyser

Several domains and deities (see previous section) offer some excellent de-buff boosters - here are some examples:

Fire(Ash) - Wall of Ashes. Simply excellent. A great supernatural effect that because it auto-scales as you level up, is in many ways superior to similar spells. A mass blinding effect with counter-invisibility and line of sight blocking ability, that is unlikely to run out of uses in an adventuring day - its better than many of the hexes available.

Madness - Vision of Madness. Everyone knows about this - a no save ability that auto scales. It’s only drawback, the need for melee touch, is negated in the famous/infamous Divine Paragon of Tsukiyo build, turning it into a multi-target hell spell for anyone on the receiving end!

Sun (Light) - Blinding Flash. A great AOE ability straight from Level 1 that will be very useful for targeting mooks and thus saving spells.

In summary, a Cleric can make a very good de-buffer in several ways. Overall a Witch will on average have the wider variety of options through the levels due to the fact that their hexes give such great mileage, but a specialist Cleric will run them close thanks to the basic spell list having some excellent options alongside all the other stuff. A Divine Scourge possibly gives it a bit of a boost, but overall it’s a marginal call in terms of its worth as an archetype.


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:


That sounds generally right to me. I think the low end should reflect a general-purpose character of that class that is not poorly built. But it probably shouldn't reflect the worst case, e.g. for the cleric an acclesitheurge's rating on melee combat.

Yes its not about the worst case.

But for example on the spreadsheet, the Druid is given an 8-10 range on Combat. With the justification for the minimum based on the fact they can Wildshape - but this is a class component that can be traded out and so can't contribute to the minimum end of the range. It would be part of the maximum end absolutely, but it doesn't represent the "bare bones" of the chassis.

In a similar way how none of my minimum scores factor in armour or domains for example since these vary tremendously and/or can be traded out. I don't even include spont heal/harms!!!


Northern Spotted Owl wrote:


Thanks Arkham.

In terms of feedback & such, I'm waiting until we have an overview for each of the core classes. I'm not holding out as much hope for the psychic. From there I think we'll want to go back and rebalance a bit.

Let's say (for the sake of argument) that the brown-fur transmuter truly is the best at buffing, and by a meaningful margin. Then perhaps we need to downgrade others to 8s or 9s. On that other hand, if they're really pretty close then we could reasonably have multiple classes with a 10s.

Cheers

Yes that makes sense. I do also think a clarification on how we approach the minimum end of the range needs to be addressed otherwise it invalidates that particular rating concept and we may as well not have it.

The minimum end needs to be how the bare bones of the class chassis could perform in that role and NOTHING more. If there are abilities and options that are traded away in various different archetypes then that by definition is not the bare bones since they are not a common point of reference.


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Here's another...... feedback/agree/disagree always welcome!

BUFF

Rating: 7 - 10

At a minimum, many of the spells that can be directly useful in the ‘Combat’ role also apply to a ‘Buff’ role. In addition, amongst others, spells like Spell Resistance, Sanctuary, Shield of Faith, Defending Bone, Effortless Armour, Profane Nimbus, Instrument of Agony, Life Bubble, Weapon of Awe, Second Wind, Spell Immunity and Death Ward are also of use to yourself or others. Since part of ‘Buffing’ involves keeping allies optimal during a combat, I would also include the ‘Mass’ healing spells and ones like Infernal/Celestial healing in this list. In short, you will always have a solid ability to buff yourself and others, irrespective of your build priorities or character set-up.

To illustrate the Cleric’s ability at the maximum end of the scale, I have chosen the Varisian/Devout Pilgrim as my example. As previously discussed this archetype has extremely useful ability in the ‘Buffing’ role due to its Caravan Bond and Harrow skills. Various domain abilities have a strong ‘anti-debuff’ effect, and since this is akin to buffing someone as it makes them very hard to take down in combat, the ability to hand these out at range to your allies is very useful.

Other abilities like ‘Copycat’, ‘Dimension Hop’, ‘Enlarge’, ‘Vision of Madness’, ‘Bit of Luck’, ‘Adoration’. ‘Destructive Smite’ or ‘Fury of the Abyss’ can now make for some excellent party buffing. And as many of these are 3+WIS/day you can get plenty of mileage without even touching your spell slots, especially if you choose a race that gives extra uses of domain abilities (eg Dwarf or Elf).

As well if you wanted it, the Foundation of Faith archetype stacks with it, thus providing the potential for some easy in-combat healing for your allies! And being that you don’t necessarily have to max-out on WIS for this build type, then choosing a race like Catfolk to gain access to the amazing spell ‘Nine Lives’ could be worth it if you knew you’d get some high level play in.

The cherry on the cake is ‘Blessing of the Harrow’ (for yourself or an ally) at 8th level which replaces your choice of an 8th level domain power:

Blessing of the Harrow (Su): Once per day, a harrower may perform a harrowing for herself and all allies within 20 feet of her. This harrowing takes 10 minutes, and allies to be affected by it must remain within 20 feet of the harrower for the entire time. At the conclusion of the harrowing, count up the number of cards from each suit that were used in the reading. This harrowing provides a bonus based upon the suit with the most cards showing. In case of a tie, choose one suit. The bonus lasts for 24 hours. The suits grant insight bonuses as follows. Strength: +1 on attack rolls; Dexterity: +1 to AC; Constitution: +1 on weapon damage rolls; Intelligence: +1 on all skill checks; Wisdom: +1 on all saving throws; Charisma: +1 on caster level and concentration checks.

Varisian Pilgrim must be one of the most (if not the most) under the radar archetypes in the entire game.
An unsurpassed buffing beast if you know what you’re doing (reading this guide is a good start!).


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A tweak and another section for you all..... thoughts always welcome!

Consecrate Spell (Metamagic)

Prerequisites: Aasimar, able to prepare or cast consecrate.

Phenomonal for an Aasimar Cleric and definitely throws in another race option for a Theologian. Since it only uses up a spell slot 2 levels higher, instead of the normal 3, it means that it can be metamagic reduced down to evens. Being able to cast Maximised Fireballs from Level 5 against anything evil is very good indeed. Stacked with Idealist (Plane of Fire) and with Spell Specialisation and you can be throwing out auto 72 hp Fireballs at 8th level……. Oooooouuuuuuch.

HEAL

Rating: 8 - 10

Firstly, I would include ‘Condition Removal’ as part of a ‘Healing’ builds parameters.
At a minimum, the basic chassis due to its survivability, enables you to get into harms way in order to heal allies (a key aspect often overlooked), and you also get all the best healing and condition removal spells at the earliest opportunity. Simples.
At the maximum, you can now add on a wide variety of Channelling options, spontaneous healing and archetypes that focus heavily on expanding healing options.
IMO the Angelfire Apostle, although it may not offer the greatest number of channels per day, it gets 5+ CHA which is very decent. It can use a degree of armour which boosts survivability and has both domains. With the ‘Healing’ domain, and without even touching any spell slots, at 11th level you can throw out 7.5 D8 + 16 hp channel heals to all your party members and restore to life any recently slain allies. If you have the ‘Liberation’ domain too, your allies will worship the ground you walk on!!

The following gives an overview of the various channel options available:

At 5th level, the Angelfire Apostle can spend two uses of his channel energy ability to cast remove blindness/deafness or lesser restoration as a spell-like ability.

At 7th level, he can choose remove disease or remove paralysis.

At 9th level, he can choose neutralize poison.

At 11th level, he can choose breath of life.

At 13th level, he can choose heal.

At 15th level, he can choose regenerate.

At 17th level, he can choose restoration but cannot affect permanent negative levels.

At 19th level, he can choose resurrection but can affect only a target that has been dead no more than 1 round per his cleric level.

When you throw on Variant Channelling (and Channelling Variance) you are the undisputed Healing/Condition Removal monster.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:

Using this as the large nucleus of a stand-alone Cleric guide actually sounds like a good idea . . . .

Great minds think alike!... I was thinking that the other day too!

Here is a start on the rating section, it would be interesting to get feedback on the logic behind it. I do feel that how I've dealt with the 'minimum end of the range' bit is the correct methodology for the 9th level casters in general, as you have to look at it as a 'bare bones' idea.

RATINGS

Finally we reach the end! This section I found very tricky to complete due to the aforementioned numerous interactions between all the components of ‘the Cleric’.
When coming up with a range for the various roles, I decided that the lower/minimum end of the range would represent just looking at the basic spell list, class chassis and nothing else. I don’t factor in any of the domains, channelling, archetypes, spontaneous heal/harm, armour… etc since these are all things that can be altered when going through a build.
You have to view the minimum end of the range as what the class could still do in that role, even if it was completely built for another role entirely. Human would be used as the basic race choice.

For example, thinking of the Cleric in the ‘Combat’ role and looking at the minimum end of the range:

You have the spell list, human, D8 hp/level, ¾ BAB, minimum of 2+ INT skill points/level, good FORT and WIS, poor REFLEX and a choice of +1 hp/+1 skill point/level. Nothing else can be factored in since these can all vary enormously, and/or be traded out via a specific archetype.

However, and this is key, for the upper/maximum end of the range, everything is factored in since if you were specifically building a ‘Combat Cleric’ then you would be looking to modify all the variables in order to perform optimally.

COMBAT

Rating: 6 - 9

At a minimum the Cleric can have an effective D10 HD/level and have good levels in the 2 most important saves. As a ¾ BAB full caster it is able to hit in melee reasonably OK in the low to mid-levels and have no trouble at all with touch attacks.
Spells that can be directly useful in the role include amongst others, BOF, Channel Vigor, Bulls Strength… etc, Bless, Burning Disarm, Liberating Command, FOM, Prot Evil, Greater Magic Weapon, Aid, Righteous Might, Grace and Ironskin.

At the maximum, the Cleric is right at the top of the tree for 9th level casters. It has the best basic chassis for combat, best basic spell list for a combat built caster, and due to the possible combos can be potent in melee or ranged combat.

For example, a fully armoured Dwarf Vanilla Cleric with Animal and Liberation domains can have an AC tiger, be virtually “un-debuffable” with very good AC, hp and saves. Or you have a Cleric of Erastil with Animal and Plant and start with Enlarge Person antics and/or flying around on a Roc using a Longbow with Erastil’s Blessing - both could be enhanced with Foundation of Faith for on-tap in-combat healing. As you have seen, there are numerous other possible combat permutations - eg) use of Mirror Image or Samsaran for extra combat spells from Inquisitor.

I am sorely tempted to give it full marks, but both Oracle and Druid can make excellent Combat builds too, so I was uncertain. Its very close though.


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Northern Spotted Owl wrote:

Arkham -- I added those archetype updates & items.

Sorry for the delay, I was away for a couple weekends in a row and must have missed this when it came in.

Cheers.

No problem - cheers for the work!

A couple of tweaks and the latest batch of stuff...... the end is in sight!!

Phylactery of Positive/Negative Channeling - 11,000 gp

If your GM is allowing slots to have more than one ability, then fine go for it, but even then IMO only if you are a focussed channeling archetype or an Undead Lord. Otherwise a WIS headband will overall give you more power in the long run.

Channeling Armour - 18,000 gp

A shield with this special ability is crafted to resemble an angel or other outsider holding a basin of some sort, and is engraved with holy symbols. The shield is keyed to either positive or negative energy when it is crafted. If the bearer can channel energy of the keyed type, three times per day he can increase the total number of dice of channeled energy by 1. The wearer also reduces any damage taken from energy of the type opposed to the keyed type by 10 points.

Pricey, but definitely worth considering if you’re an Undead Lord.

FEATS AND TRAITS

Dreamed Secrets

Already mentioned - an excellent choice for any pure caster-focussed Cleric. Well worth maxing out your WILL save for. Interesting back story on it - it was apparently devised by none other than James Jacobs himself, who is a big fan of Lovecraft. The feat is technically PFS legal, but due to the bizarre mess up by Paizo with making GOO/OG worship non-PFS, it has become non-PFS friendly, despite having an entire AP (Strange Aoens) dedicated to the genre…. What a mess!

Consecrate Spell (Metamagic)

Prerequisites: Aasimar, able to prepare or cast consecrate.

Phenomonal for an Aasimar Cleric and definitely throws in another race option for a Theologian. Since it only uses up a spell slot 2 levels higher, instead of the normal 3, it means that it can be metamagic reduced down to evens. Being able to cast Maximised Fireballs from Level 5 against anything evil is very good indeed. Stacked with Idealist (Plane of Fire) and with Spell Specialisation and and you can be throwing out 120 hp Fireballs at 8th level……. Oooooouuuuuuch.

Elemental Spell (Metamagic)

If you’re going full on ‘Fireball Cleric’ then you really do need to pick this one up to give you that much needed versatility.

Improved Initiative

Always a solid choice for any caster, or pretty much any player TBH.

Reactionary

Similar reasons to the above.

Sacred Summons

Yes it does restrict your summoning options, but not massively so. And most summoning builds would want to utilise Summon Good/Evil/Neutral Monster anyway which does mitigate the restrictions and provide some extras (eg Diehard feat). There aren’t many classes that can get standard action summons, and as a general rule it’s better to get extra bodies on the field quickly than get slightly more powerful bodies slower. As well, many deities provide bonus summoned creature options for Clerics.

Augment Summons

Yes you get this free as a Herald Caller, but potentially still worth the investment (+ the Spell Focus pre-requisite) for other Cleric builds.

Vile Domain

Your connection with a malignant force has granted you great power. Choose a domain granted by an evil aligned deity, such as an archdevil, demon lord, or Great Old One. You gain a +1 trait bonus to your caster level when casting spells that are granted by that domain.

Very under the radar trait - now here’s the crafty bit, it would require getting the ‘Extra Traits’ feat as both of your initial traits are going to be MM reducers, but for an Lava Gnome/Magma Ifrit Fire/Ash Theologian it represents another way to get your CL up for casting those Fireballs!

Magical Lineage and/or Wayang Spellhunter

Absolute musts for a Blaster/Theologian build, but could also be useful for an Ecclesitheurge if they fancied dabbling with blasting and maybe combine it with Elemental Spell or even a Vanilla Cleric that wanted to boost a Debuff spell like Hallucinogenic Smoke or Greater Forbid Action with Persistent Spell.

Scribe Scroll / Craft Wand

Great feats for any Cleric due to the size and versatility of the basic spell list and the fact that they automatically know all the spells on it. Would be of course particularly good for an Ecclesitheurge.

Combat Reflexes

I am not a huge fan of Reach builds as their damage output just doesn’t merit the investment IMO, especially as you level up. There are occasional exceptions though, a great example would be the previously discussed use of the Plant subdomain, or any build that made heavy use of Enlarge Person spell.

Divine Interference

Well known for basically being a must-have feat - forcing rerolls at a penalty is a definite lifesaver, even if you only sacrifice a 1st level spell.

Beacon of Faith (Trait)

Potentially worth it to cast a domain spell like Holy Word/Blasphemy/Spell Resistance, even if it’s only 1/day.

Heedful Readiness (Trait)

It’s only 1/day but adding WIS to initiative could be a game changer in a big battle.

Fate's Favored (Trait)

Always great.

Mother's Rage (Trait)

Lamashtu specific, but a +1 on Survival checks and a +1 on CL for Summon Monster spells is good straight from Level 1.

Accelerated Drinker (Trait)

If you have the Alchemy subdomain, everyone in the party should get this trait. Move action potion drinking is great.

VARIOUS CHANNEL BOOSTING FEATS/TRAITS

Unless you are a Channel specialist or Undead Lord, none of these are really worth it IMO. Clerics are feat starved already! As a general rule with Channelling, the benefits are only there if you are all in or all out. Making your Cleric much SADer is great overall for caster builds.

The only exception is Herald Caller which basically receives a free ‘improved’ Selective Channel for use on summoned critters and so doesn’t have to invest as much in order to make Channelling viable in the first place. Picking up ‘Undead Lord does get Command Undead as a bonus feat and a choice of Channel Smite, Extra Channel, Improved Channel, Quick Channel, Skeleton Summoner or Undead Master at 10th level.

Extra Channel - could be worth it as it gives a CHA 10 Cleric, 5 channels instead of 3 and so saves ability score points. But do you have the spare feats??

Improved Channel - for an Undead Lord could be excellent. Factoring in the other stuff your neg channel DC is now 19 + CHA + ½ Cleric level. Try and save that *(&^%$! Throw on some D6 boosters and your damage starts to become half decent too.

Quick Channel - probably only worth it for a real Channel specialist as although useful will really chew through your daily uses.

Channel Viciousness - Potentially very good as an extra 2D6 on melee weapon damage for CHA mod in minutes has real use even for a lower CHA build.

Fateful Channel - anything offering re-rolls is always worth considering, especially since it only burns the standard 1 channel to use.

Protective Channel - Prot Evil is an excellent spell and so being able to hand it out on top of the healing effect is solid. The only downside is the need to have a 7D6 channel.

Sacred Conduit (Trait) - like before, go for it if you are an all in Channeler and want that +1DC, otherwise forget it.

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