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• At around 6th level, builds without a move-and-full-attack option (or extreme reach) fall off extremely hard and from then on compete with builds that have such ability when it comes to damage done.
I agree with a lot of your points, but I think you're over-selling this.
At 6th level the difference between 1 attack and 2 attacks isn't a huge deal, especially since the 2nd attack comes with penalties. You're probably losing ~35% of your damage by moving. Give your PC Vital Strike and you've dropped that to something like ~20%.
By level 11 you're getting a bit more screwed if you can't move and full-attack. You can now have 3 attacks, you're more likely to be Hasted and Vital Strike are really showing it's age .
So at 6th level they begin to fall off, but it's not extremely hard. Certainly by later levels the difference becomes significant though.
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ARCANE
Magus vs Bard vs SummonerDIVINE
Hunter vs Inquisitor vs WarpriestPSYCHIC
Medium vs Occultist vs Spiritualist
ARCANE
I agree with Kurald that the main thing we'll see here is the Bard getting smooshed. Bards are great, but they're not a solo class. The bard is a force multiplier, so if you took a party with a Bard and a party with a Magus or Summoner then the Bard-Party probably has the edge. Alone against a Magus or Summoner though the Bard's gonna have a bad day.Between Magus and Summoner I don't really know. A Magus can Nova pertty hard, so if you can take out the Summoner quickly then the Eidolon disappears. If the Summoner stays alive then you're fighting a 2v1. If you take out the Eidolon first then the Summoner can ... well, summon, and you're back where you started, and losing a war of attrition. I'll call this one a tie and see how they both fare in the end.
DIVINE
I want to say Warpriest, but that's probably because it's the only one I've personally played. The Warpriest and Inquisitor both have nice swift action buffs. The Warpriest gets spells, so that's super powerful eventually, but a swift-action Bane could be the end of an opponent very quickly. At level 5 I'd give it to the Inquisitor, but the higher you go the more swift-action spells start ramping up the Warpriest's power. I'll give this one to the Warpriest, but it's close.
PSYCHIC
I kinda have the same problem here as with the Divine classes. I've only played an Occultist out of these 3, and I don't think I've even seen the others played. I love the Occultist, their mobility is phenomenal and they have some truly incredible buffs , but one thing they lack is action economy. There's a huge glut of Standard Action buffs and abilities, and that could cause serious problems against a pet-class like the Spiritualist. I'm not really sure on the Medium. I'm gonna have to give this one to the Occultist , but I'm not 100% sure it's correct. It can get Full BAB and Bane though, so it's pretty good.
Also, why no Mesmerist?
ALCHEMICAL
So this one isn't a 3-way fight, it's just Alchemist vs Investigator. If we weren't talking melee builds I'd definitely give this to the Alchemist . Since we ARE talking melee I'll probably give it to the Investigator. Yes the Alchemist can get Pounce and Sneak Attack, but I don't think they really have any accuracy boosters to rival Studied Combat. They both have enough tools at their disposal to make extremely short work of 1 enemy, but I think an Investigator with an Inspired Weapon would out-match virtually any melee Alchemist.
FINAL ROUND
SO obviously I've been a bit less than thorough in previous rounds, discounting classes just because I don't know them, but I think I'll go: Warpriest, Occultist, Investigator, and from the Arcane side I'll see how it goes with both Summoner and the Magus seperately
So here we see the wheels come off for the Investigator. Investigators are great at single-target combat, but not so great if they can't focus down 1 enemy. All of the other classes here have mobility and area control that really stop the Investigator from capitalizing on their strengths. If the combat started as a 2v2, and then the winners turned into another 2v2 then the Investigator would stand a reasonable chance, but in a free-for-all it's the weak link .
Magus/Warpriest/Occultist: Between these 3 classes it's hard to say. The Warpriest seems to have the most staying power, and the Magus obviously has the Nova'bility, so I think it'd come down to one of those two. As to which I couldn't really say, though I'd probably gove a slight edge to the Magus thanks to that nova, and options like Dimensional Dervish.
Summoner/Warpriest/Occultist: Once again I don't think the Occultist quite keeps up thanks to action economy. The Warpriest's bonus feats and swift-action buffs would quickly outpace the Occultist's bonuses, and the Summoner gets an extra set of actions every round. Between the Summoner and Warpriest I'd probably give it to the Warpriest. A Warpriest makes one hell of a tank, and while the Magus can out-pace them by just melting their HP I'm not sure a Summoner could. Meanwhile the tanky Warpriest is also putting out enough damage to make a Fighter cry, and even having 2 bodies on the field doesn't quite make up for it.
FINAL RANKING
Given how they went against each other, I'm going Magus, Warpriest, Summoner, Occultist, Investigator, Inquisitor, Alchemist, Bard. The other classes are un-ranked because I don't know them well enough.
Ask me tomorrow though and I'll probably givd you a different list =P
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It's a fun thought experiment.
In a three way battle, you'll see the weaker opponents immediately gang up on the stronger. In this way, you'll see a few upsets.
Arcane
Even with the Magus and Bard probably teaming up to kill the Summoner first, they likely lose since there's no qualifier on archetype or chain/unchain. They must kill the Summoner first otherwise they have absolutely no hope barring a lucky Magus critical as they're buried in summons. They need to kill the Summoner in a single round or they lose hands down.
Divine
Again without any qualifiers, Inquisitor takes this without much of a fight because of Monster Tactician. Yes, summoning is that powerful. Depending on the format of the fight though, the Warpriest makes a stronger or weaker showing depending on if the Hunter/Inquisitor get any time to prebuff.
Psychic
Spiritualist Phantoms kind of suck. Everyone can kind of just completely ignore it or delete it in the fight so I'll give it to Occultist. The necromantic servant is rock solid and providing flanks/annoyance. The Medium can make a great showing with a Champion focus, but likely can't overcome the Occultist SHEER NUMBERS.
Final Round
Summoner/Inquisitor/Occultist
Summoner has higher quality summons and better spell list. When you get compared to the Wizard, the Chained Summoner really blows everyone else out of the water because it's a 9th level spell list disguised as a 6th one. The Occultist shakes his fist and says, "This was supposed to be a melee fight!" as he drowns in bodies.
The Summoner and Inquisitor look to each other and say, "Well...we're holding swords so...yeah."
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I agree with a lot of your points, but I think you're over-selling this.
At 6th level the difference between 1 attack and 2 attacks isn't a huge deal, especially since the 2nd attack comes with penalties. You're probably losing ~35% of your damage by moving. Give your PC Vital Strike and you've dropped that to something like ~20%.
The Druid (or Feral Hunter or Shifter) pounces with three attacks with no penalty (Weretouched Shifters and Eidolons/Synthesists pounce with even more attacks since 4th level). The Fighter/Ranger/Slayer/Warpriest archer gets another bonus shot with no penalty from Manyshot (and other full BAB archers follow at 7th). unMonk got 20 ft. Flying Kick range. Gunslingern got dex-to-damage last level. Summoner, Wizard, Sorc, Arcanist, and Psychic have already access to Haste, and Bard, Skald, Investigator, Magus, Occultist, Spiritualist, and Cleric (Blessing of Fervor) follow the next level. Boots of Speed also become affordable around this time.
Sure, it depends on builds and party. Everything always does. But this thread is about "very powerful melee build[s]", which meains I judge melee builds incomparison to other powerful builds. And the Fighter's 21 damage when vital strike'ing at 6th is far enough behind the WS Druid's 32.5 pounce damage (or even the archery Fighter's 28.2) that I feel justified calling that "fall[ing] off extremely hard". Oh look, the Sorc concieved that with two Fighters and a melee Druid, Haste is a good idea. So now the Druid pounces for 46.4, the archer full attacks for 40.0, and the Fighter VS's for... 22.6 *sad trombone playing*.
I feel like the magus outperforms the summoner past the low levels. The magus often has a high AC along with avoidance like mirror image and blur. And an eidolon that can't hit isn't that dangerous.
This presumes time to pre-buff, and stops working at 11th level when the Eidolon gets Blindsight/Lifesense.
Does a Magus even have anything to counter Invisibility (apart from getting lucky with Glitterdust, or having True Seeing at 16th)?
A Magus can Nova pertty hard
Only if they crit, really.
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Once we start talking about summoning are we really even talking about a melee build anymore? Monster tactician with an animal companion domain option can do a lot, but even if it took some melee feats, I don’t think I’d consider it a “melee build”.
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{. . .}
3) How much do you value narrative power? The unMonk ki power Empty Body lets you do all kinds of crazy things, but in combat it's only useful as an escape clause. Diplomacy, Bluff, Climb etc. might help your character in lots of ways depending on the campaign, but are useless in combat.
Since Empty Body works like Etherealness, which is dismissible, I'm going to assume the Monk can dismiss it. This gives it some use in situations where an enemy is using a choke (including one they made with Wall spells) to keep you from getting to their casters/archers -- a Monk sufficiently prepared to be in a bad position for a short time could use Empty Body to bypass the choke, then come out of Ethereal state and start dealing on the back line. A Monk who had a sufficiently large Ki Pool could even then use Empty Body again to escape after they finish doing their dirty work. Also note that Empty Body has no level prerequisite, so a Monk can get it MUCH earlier than anybody could get the Etherealness spell, which is an 8th level spell for Psychic and a 9th level spell for everybody else that can get it at all (unless I missed somebody that gets it as a lower level bonus spell) -- potentially even a 4th level Monk could get it if they managed to boost their Ki Pool high enough to be able to use it.
{. . .}
I think he underevaluated the magus… quite a bit… his premise for the summoner having the edge is due to the existence of the eidolon… but magus can very easily rival that with the familiar arcana and a mailer familiar…alternatively the beast blade magus or naturebonded magus gets a familiar by default, or an Eldritch scion magus of the aberration bloodline with the aberrant tumor feat… all of which are eligible for the mailer familiar archetype… they might not seem a like much, but with the right choice of spells (magus has all the spells needed for this) and the maulers endurance feat, they can rival an animal companion. {. . .}
I hadn't thought about that before -- the special Familiar archetype that takes opponents out of the fight by causing them to get stuck in US Postal Service Mail Forwarding Failure limbo . . . .
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Once we start talking about summoning are we really even talking about a melee build anymore? Monster tactician with an animal companion domain option can do a lot, but even if it took some melee feats, I don’t think I’d consider it a “melee build”.
Fair. But the Summoner was included in the original list so I was like "Okay...". The Summoner themselves doesnt really invest anything beyond Superior Summoning. Monster Tactician needs more feats,but neither are slouches in melee due to it. Inquisitor likely wants to be a mounted charger, but that might not be melee enough. You can do some silly stuff with the Anger Subdomain.
Alt Option for Summoner is Synthesist whom likely curbstomps both the MAC Warpriest and Occultist in a 1v2 scenario. It gets really close though and the Warpriest might squeak out a win sometimes.
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Ok, hear me out. Kasatha with 4 levels of Weretouched Shifter with Deinonychus aspect for Bite, Talons, and Pounce. 3 levels of White-Haired Witch for Hair attack. 2 levels Armored Hulk Barbarian with either Lesser Fiend Totem or Lesser Beast Totem rage power depending on whether GM allows Claws to be used after the 4th Shifter level, gaining either Gore or Claws. 2 levels of Wizard, needed to increase caster level as increasing Witch level would increase range of hair attack and ruin the pounce.
Take the feats Chaos Reigns for a Slam attack. Mutated Shape for Tail Sting. Then Evolved Familiar and Shared Evolution for Pincers.
Dread Wing enhancement on the armor, and the item Tentacle Cloak. If using Lesser Beast Totem, then grab a Mammoth Helm. (Craft Wondrous Items and Craft Magical Arms & Armor to do it yourself.)
By the end of this, you have a claw, sting, pincer, slam, bite, gore, wings, hair, and talons. All with Pounce. And since Kasathas have 4 arms, you can use a shield.
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^The Witch and Wizard caster levels don't stack -- they operate independently. I think increasing Witch level doesn't hurt you here, since Hair attack doesn't have a minimum range (unlike a polearm), except that each odd-level increase hurts your BAB.
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Except that pounce is using a charge attack. And at level 4 of White-Haired Witch, the reach of your hair attack goes up. The charge ends as soon as you reach a space where you can attack your opponent. If the hair has longer reach than everything else, then that's where you stop at.
And the wizard levels are really only for getting Craft Magical Arms & Armor as that needs a caster level of 5. And they do stack for TOTAL caster level. (Plus increase the level of the familiar.) If one doesn't want to take the feat, then one can just go with more levels of Barbarian or go into Fighter or something.
Also, if anyone can figure out how to get Tail Slap and Hoof onto that build, I will be forever grateful as those are the only 2 natural weapons I couldn't figure out!
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Except that pounce is using a charge attack. And at level 4 of White-Haired Witch, the reach of your hair attack goes up. The charge ends as soon as you reach a space where you can attack your opponent. If the hair has longer reach than everything else, then that's where you stop at.
I couldn't find anything in the wording of Charge or Pounce that says you have to end your charge and attack as soon as any of your attacks gets in range, just that you have to move consistently and without obstruction towards whatever you are charging.
And the wizard levels are really only for getting Craft Magical Arms & Armor as that needs a caster level of 5. And they do stack for TOTAL caster level. (Plus increase the level of the familiar.) If one doesn't want to take the feat, then one can just go with more levels of Barbarian or go into Fighter or something.
{. . .}
As noted above, Witch and Wizard levels would not stack for total caster level (the only ability I know of where they would stack is for determining the abilities of your Familiar, since the Familiar rules explicitly stack them).
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I couldn't find anything in the wording of Charge or Pounce that says you have to end your charge and attack as soon as any of your attacks gets in range
"You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent." CRB pg. 198 If you have 10ft range hair, the closest space from which you can attack the target is 10ft away, and your charge stops there.
Of course, the entire build is not actually good in practise, as the additional attacks are pure win-more, while the build is lacking things like flight.
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I couldn't find anything in the wording of Charge or Pounce that says you have to end your charge and attack as soon as any of your attacks gets in range"You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent." CRB pg. 198 If you have 10ft range hair, the closest space from which you can attack the target is 10ft away, and your charge stops there.
Of course, the entire build is not actually good in practise, as the additional attacks are pure win-more, while the build is lacking things like flight.
Wand of Fly that doesn't have to be UMD'd thanks to being on both witch and wizard class lists takes care of that.
And the build was mostly to see how many natural weapons I could cram onto a single character. Got everything but Tail Slap and Hoof.
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I still believe that a very powerful melee build should be fundamentally sound, rather than relying on gimmicks. These fundamentals are not reliant on any class feature, and can be achieved without any special items.
Can't do anything if you cannot do anything... Combat Reflexes allows you to at least react in the surprise round. No amount of powerful melee build means anything if you die where you stand without ever making an attack. And, the extra damage you can deal out of turn should be appealing if power is judged by damage alone.
Power Attack is, like, standard. But missing sucks, so make Furious Focus equally standard. Keeps you swinging penalty free up until you get your second attack from BAB.
Outside of Dirty Tricks, combat maneuvers inevitably will run out of usefulness... so don't build a melee build that derives its "power" from munchkin madness BS. Without class features that allow retraining useless [trap] feats, or a generous GM that supports your shenanigans, combat maneuvers should not be the basis of any melee build... much less a melee build one may want to ever be considered "very powerful".
If your "very powerful" melee build doesn't have room for Iron Will, it isn't powerful... it's a liability. I might excuse a melee build based on a Wisdom-based chassis with a good Will save, but even then I will keep my character away from you in combat...
"You're everyone's problem. That's because every time you go up in the air, you're unsafe. I don't like you because you're dangerous."
-Iceman [Top Gun]
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I couldn't find anything in the wording of Charge or Pounce that says you have to end your charge and attack as soon as any of your attacks gets in range"You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent." CRB pg. 198 If you have 10ft range hair, the closest space from which you can attack the target is 10ft away, and your charge stops there.
Of course, the entire build is not actually good in practise, as the additional attacks are pure win-more, while the build is lacking things like flight.
I read that as closest space to the target -- if it is closest space to you, then what you are saying makes sense as limiting you if you have attacks with different Reach. So, do any Paizo official monsters have both Pounce and attacks that have different Reach?
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I hadn't thought about that before -- the special Familiar archetype that takes opponents out of the fight by causing them to get stuck in US Postal Service Mail Forwarding Failure limbo . . . .
I meant Mauler. I was typing from my phone and the stupid autocorrect changed it without me noticing.
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I just want to point out that Barbarians (and Primalist Bloodragers) are fine with saves, they just need to take the Superstition rage power.
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I read that as closest space to the target -- if it is closest space to you, then what you are saying makes sense as limiting you if you have attacks with different Reach.
If you have to move adjacent to a target, you couldn't pounce with a lance (a reach weapon), yet they made no mention of that in the FAQ. It also doesn't make sense given how the sentence is structured, and where it's placed in the rules, as the previous sentence is clearly checked based on your original location (and so "closest space to you" means "closest space to your original location").
So, do any Paizo official monsters have both Pounce and attacks that have different Reach?
Indeed they do, and most of those wouldn't be able to profit from charge if they have to stop at the earliest spot from which they can make an attack: Thessalhydra, Bandersnatch, Kamadan, Voonith, Serpopard, Wakandagi, and Bluetip Eurypterid.
Weird.
Wand of Fly that doesn't have to be UMD'd thanks to being on both witch and wizard class lists takes care of that.
It's not just flight, there's a whole lot of useful stuff you can grab with sticking to a single spellcasting class after the four levels of Shifter. Also, between the armor enhancement, the cloak, and the helm, where's the money for the wand coming from?
And the build was mostly to see how many natural weapons I could cram onto a single character. Got everything but Tail Slap and Hoof.
I know, half the ideas came from me. But it's a gimmick builds where half the stuff is wasted because any target you pounce dies before you get to actually make those later attacks.
The Paladin can keep on rockin whilst other supposedly "superior" melee classes are failing saves left, right and centre...
Huh? Paladin is generally considered the most all-around powerful class without full- or 6/9 casting in the game.
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I just want to point out that Barbarians (and Primalist Bloodragers) are fine with saves, they just need to take the Superstition rage power.
There's a bunch of ways to shore up will save. Half-Orc with Sacred Tattoo + Fate's Favored, Dwarf with hardy (possibly with Glory of Old and/or Steel Soul), Half-Elf with Dual Minded + Elven immunities, the Deathtouched trait, and, well strong will save progression and/or high wisdom.
Quite frankly, VoodistMonk's posts should be ignored 99% of the time because they have little to do with how most people play Pathfinder, and this is yet another instance. Apparently, in his mind, a 10th level wisdom-focussed Dwarf Cleric with Steel Soul and Deathtouched, with a will save of +20 against mind-affecting spells, is to dangerous to be close to because they don't have Iron Will, but a 10th level Fighter with just Iron Will and a total will save of +7 is fine.
Maybe that math works out in the universe where an all-day-aviable or even permanent class feature is considered an unreliable gimmick... but it certainly doesn't in this universe.
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Quite frankly, VoodistMonk's posts should be ignored 99% of the time...
Very true.