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Having class abilities that rely on anything or anyone else to carry out YOUR duties in a party is, well, slavery...

I have examples, but let's hear the initial argument, first:


I figured Shaman and hexes fit best, but never dodging and Warpriest seems to fit well with Fervor, Druid is there for Wisdom and changing shape BS...

Since worms that walk gets its Wisdom modifier as an Insight bonus to AC, I would rather try to pick a wisdom based class, personally.

But otherwise use the D20PFSRD CR14 worm that walks monster as a guideline.

Change its original stats to better support a wisdom based character, and its original casting class to be wisdom based, as well. Shaman, maybe? Warpriest? Even, Druid?

Given that it was originally human, in the CR14 D20PFSRD example, your stats/class/feats/skills are basically yours to play with... still staying within the basic challenge rating system.

At the end of your straight build for her, just add +1 CR for the Eruptive Arrival Sp. ability... done.

D20PFSRD has a CR14 worm that walks 13th level Conjurer... could be used as a guideline/starting point. Just as easily just add the template to whatever class and build you think fits her best.

As for the explosion of worms thing, which is awesome, you can look towards the Sentinel Prestige Class for Trelmarixian, Horseman of Famine, for inspiration... it gives you this as its third boon:

Eruptive Arrival (Sp) Once per day, you can teleport yourself into the flesh of any living creature that you can see (as per greater teleport), erupting out of its body in a shower of blood, bone, and viscera, arriving in an adjacent square, and dealing 5d6 damage to all creatures within 10 feet. The target itself takes 20d6 points damage. The target and creatures in the affected areas can attempt Fortitude saves (DC = 10 + half your Hit Dice + your Constitution bonus) to reduce the damage by half, but any creature that fails this saving throw is also nauseated for 1d4 rounds.

Definitely don't have to make her take the Prestige Class, but you can steal that ability if she is a BBEG, devourer of worlds.

Can someone please Herolab this @12/@20 for me, and post it here? It would be greatly appreciated...

If we figure a +2 Belt of Physical Perfection and a +2 Headband of Mental Superiority into the build.
Bringing her final stats to a modest, but respectable: 12,20,16,12,18,16

And a +3 (Distance & Speed) small Blowgun, probably higher, but at least this.

And small +3 Celestial Full Plate.

I know this isn't nearly her WBL, but it's a really simple baseline to get the idea.

With Rapid Shot and Greater Weapon Focus, it's a draw for the attack penalty/bonuses.

Thanks in advance to anyone who has Herolab, and is bored.

20pt buy starting stats with racials:

1. Fey Foundling
1B. Weapon Focus Blowgun
3. Point Blank Shot
3B. Precise Shot
4. Dex +1 -> 18
5. Rapid Shot
6B. Weapon Specialization
7. Deadly Aim
8. Wis +1 -> 15
9. Quicken Blessing
9B. Greater Weapon Focus
11. Still Spell
12. Wis +1 -> 16
12B. Greater Weapon Specialization
13. Blissful Spell
15. Encouraging Spell
15B. Improved Precise Shot
16. Con +1 -> 14
17. Toughness
18B. Improved Critical
19. Iron Will
20. Cha +1 -> 14

With the Roving Range trait a +1 Distance Blowgun has a range increment of 50', max of 500'. Obviously this was never meant to be a damage champion when the base weapon (small blowgun) has a base damage of 1... flat. Not 1D2, just one damage. But I am satisfied with this blowgun build.

Thanks everyone for the assistance.

Does this look a little better?

1. Fey Foundling
1B. Weapon Focus Blowgun
3. Cunning
3B. Point Blank Shot
4. Con +1 -> 14
5. Precise Shot
6B. Weapon Specialization
7. Rapid Shot
8. Dex +1 -> 18
9. Quicken Blessing
9B. Greater Weapon Focus
11. Still Spell
12. Wis +1 -> 16
12B. Greater Weapon Specialization
13. Deadly Aim
15. Encouraging Spell
15B. Improved Precise Shot
16. Cha +1 -> 14
17. Blissful Spell
18B. Improved Critical

Sacred Weapon damage (small size):
1-4, 1D4
5-9, 1D6
10-14, 1D8
15-19, 1D10
20, 2D6

This is what I have so far. Looking for suggestions to fill in the rest.

20pt buy starting stats with racials:

Symbiotic Imbalance alternative racial feature for 20' land speed, 40' fly speed with average maneuverability.

Whimsical Outlook alternative racial feature for 1/day roll Will save twice and take the highest result.

(Regional) Storm Pilot
(Combat) Roving Range

Air & Good

1. Fey Foundling
1B. Weapon Focus Blowgun
3. Point Blank Shot
3B. Precise Shot
4. Con +1 -> 14
5. Flyby Attack
6B. Rapid Shot
7. Hover
8. Dex +1 -> 18
12. Wis +1 -> 16
12B. Improved Critical
16. Cha +1 -> 14

Continue the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization path?

Vital Strike feats can be used with Flyby Attack, to my understanding. Maybe invest in that?

As it reads on AoN, Wealthy Dabbler gives you two Arcane Cantrips, useable 1/day each...

Category Region
Requirement(s) Taldor
You study magic at one of Taldor’s many social clubs, wowing your friends with your expertise in the simplest of magical exploits. Select two non-harmful arcane cantrips. You can cast these two cantrips once per day each (caster level 1st). If you have levels in a class that can cast these cantrips, your caster level for these cantrips is equal to that class level.

It continues to use the word Cantrip, states that it must be Arcane, and never hints that it is a SLA. This technically works as Cantrips are 0-level Arcane spells, and Arcane Strike does not specify a minimum Arcane spell level requirement.

The CR9 8th level Sorcerer Vampire qualifies for the Agent of the Grave Prestige Class. If it takes all five levels, it will be CR14. Hit Dice goes from 8 to 13. Casting as a 12th level Sorcerer. Could be a fun BBEG.

If you give the above Vampire one more level of Sorcerer, you can make it the False Priest archetype, and really play with the story options that can come from it.

Using the Agent of the Grave Death's Shroud ability and all the Vampire's charm to hide in plain sight, posing as the priest. His "divine focus" being a bible/tome, the symbol on the front is a decoy, simply cut into the cover, exposing the back of a golden disk that has the markings of the Vampire's true deity, bonus points if this book is covered with human skin. This book contains the divine scrolls that the False Priest can use without destroying, giving the Vampire the appearance of having divine magic.

CR15 (14HD) False Priest Sorcerer-9/
Agent of the Grave-5 Vampire

As a Vampire, it can have up to 28HD worth of Vampire Spawn. Some of which should probably be Negative Energy channeling Clerics.

And with Agent of the Grave/ Animate Dead you can have ~76HD worth of other Undead minions.

This is probably enough to keep one person busy for a while. But shouldn't be too impossible with a character dedicated to fighting the Undead.

The Vampire can actually use the Undead minions to draw attention/scare the people... only faith will save you [insert evil laugh].

Adding the Roving Range combat trait to your Warpriest with a Distance Heavy Crossbow for a 250' increment. Max 2500'...

I'm sure there are more tricks like magical scopes or goggles to increase the range increment.

Be a Strix... no cheese required... no dips necessary... you have mastered flight at level one.

The Strix Fighter archetype allows you to take Hover and Flyby Attack as Fighter bonus feats. Now you have truly mastered flight in four levels of Fighter.

Blooded Arcane Strike eliminates the swift action of activating Arcane Strike... you have infinite ammunition whilst Bloodraging and absolutely no need to reload. You can TWF with one shot pistols and full attack all day long in Bloodrage.

One trait can make up for up to two Caster Levels lost with a dip into a firearm friendly class.

Personally, I would use a rifle and Vital Strike feats, but everyone else seems really set on the TWF with pistols because they watched too many stupid action movies.

Probably Human for the extra feat, and access to the Charisma based Gunslinger archetype. Possibly start as the Eldritch Archer Magus for a free masterwork firearm and immediate access to Arcane Strike. Then a level of Buccaneer Gunslinger for Gunsmithing and Sea Legs and Charisma based Grit and a battered backup gun.

Then you go Urban Bloodrager with the Arcane Bloodline and never look back.

To my understanding, Scurring Swarmer allows you to share your square with your mauler familiar/ mount. Thusly, pretty much guaranteed to receive the benefits of the Ratfolk Swarmer ability... and nearly making Sneak Attack always activated via flanking.

You can take teamwork feats, too, possibly adding more precision damage to the full Sneak Attack progression of the Vivisectionist.

Lizardfolk have bite and claws, making them a natural choice for a natural attack build.

Tengu can get a bite and claws, as well.

Helm of the Mammoth Lord adds a gore attack to the routine.

Take the Lunge feat when you can.

Get Pounce as soon as possible.

Now, what class do you want to play as?

If you want to use Mutagen, then the Alchemist is probably better than the Fighter. That particular Fighter archetype is awesome for Fighters, but not so much for what you seem to be trying to accomplish.

Rage is pretty comparable to a Mutagen, and the Bloodrager has the ability to self buff, as well as contribute to battlefield control.

There are a million ways to min/max a natural attack melee combatant, but what do you want to play?

Build a utilitarian caster...

Stack archetypes to expand and explore your utility...

I'm a huge fan of Shaman or False Priest Sorcerer, but you can absolutely build utility with this by stacking archetypes.

Depending on what you want to do, you can actually achieve a huge amount of utility with this.

You also have the Strix specific Fighter archetype that allows you to take Fly By Attack and Hover as Fighter bonus feats.

However, Fly By Attack does not in any way grant the ability to move or make the standard action attack without suffering AoO for the movement and/or the action/attack...

Some feats/abilities negate these AoO, Fly By Attack does not for very specific balance reasons.

In fact, the Strix Fighter archetype actually allows Fly checks instead of Acrobatics checks to move through threatened squares in order to focus on the Fly skill instead of Acrobatics. Exactly because of how these skills work. Giving up Climb to have Fly as a class skill.

Normally, Flying is extremely difficult to actually use. Every movement has a required check, to hover is checked even if you have flight.

Fly By Attack is easily accessible to Playable Characters because it is also balanced by opening AoO to and from...


VMC Oracle with the Lame Curse. Become immune to the Fatigued condition. Maybe?

Two COMPLETELY different things? Thought so...

Someone, speak slowly I am very stupid, please explain why TWF and Strong Swing actually interact otherwise...

It's the same as arguing about off hand attacks with TWF and Imp. Unarmed Strike...

I want to give martial characters nice things... I do!

We get f&+#ing nothing!

But this isn't a nice thing we actually get...


You now have a offhand attack with your buckler.

This was never available before.

If your BAB allows extra attacks, you can use your buckler... this is actually a huge ability. Otherwise, you cannot bash with a buckler. Rules and stuff.

Giving you the ability to bash with a buckler is part of the archetype...

To say that the ability allows you to substitute every Shield Bash with a Falcata strike is literally insane.

No, you have exactly as many attacks as you had before.

You can substitute a Falcata attack for a Buckler attack. This is clear.

It doesn't give you the ability to freely substitute Buckler attacks for Falcata attacks... does it? Where do you find this reverse interaction?

It doesn't exist...

Adding TWF literally does NOTHING.

You have your Imp. TWF... exactly as it always runs...

You have Strong Swing... exactly as it always runs...

Understand that the feat itself is, and always will be, useless.

In any and every other situation you may need the feat, you are already significantly f!cked...

You can get it with a trait, you can buy it with a compass... the significance is literally what you make of it...

Traits are considered half a feat, and there is a trait that gives you the Blind Fight feat... therefore Blind Fight is only worth half a feat. Lol.

It's better to just buy it with the aforementioned Wayfinder, if you need it.

Unless EXACTLY needed for a VERY specific spell, completely unnecessary with the False Priest Sorcerer.

Casually blend the concepts.

The mass/ship combat rules are overwhelmingly boring, much like kingdom building rules.

You can have entire flanks live and die on mass combat rules, but have your party in the middle of it all, tracking down a particular general or, perhaps, a necromancer...

All the static defenses allow you to give the party a special mission to take out the siege weapon before you die.

The only traits I can think of only give you access to a spell off a different list, but you cast it the same way you cast otherwise.

If you want to use Spell Cartridges, the Bloodrager with Blooded Arcane Strike has infinite ammunition during Bloodrage. Blooded Arcane Strike gives you some mileage out of Vital Strike, too. But it doesn't really offer much for Infuse Spell Cartridges. Still, an Urban Bloodrager with the Arcane Bloodline can get some good use out of Spell Cartridges.

Sorry for the tangent, what is it about your current build that draws you to want to use Spell Cartridges, if you are already set on the Psychic Bloodline?

Maybe the trait is actually perfect for the False Priest archetype, to pick up a 9th level divine spell... since its abilities stop at 8th level spells, technically.

But honestly, if you already have Wish, you don't need Miracle. True Resurrection, maybe?

There is also the crank crossbow, which does something very similar.

When the False Priest Sorcerer exists, this trait is borderline useless unless you're really looking for just one divine spell.

This works the same way everything else does...

Using the archetype ability is a full attack action.

Using TWF is a full attack action.

They cannot be used simultaneously, just like everything else (Vital Strike, Cleave, literally everything with a specified action) unless you have something specific to override the general rule.

Does the archetype ability SPECIFY that it can be used in conjunction with another full attack action like TWF? No, it does not. But it does specify that using the ability is a full attack action.

The end.

PS. The archetype gives you the ability to bash with a buckler, which is otherwise unavailable without the Upsetting Shield Style feats. Which apparently was not brought up as an asset of the archetype in the previous/resurrected thread.

Painful Stare is precision damage.

Horrid Mask allows you to trigger your Painful Stare without the damage.

Confusing Stare activates when you trigger your Painful Stare, and doesn't require you to damage them to apply the confusion.

It appears to work, although it is cheesy munchkin madness.

You can delay Spear Dancing Reach and Imp. TWF, for Trip focused feats, but the rest is almost mandatory for a DEX quarterstaff user. It is a necessary journey for this character to be realistic as soon as possible.

1. Two Weapon Fighting
1B. Weapon Finesse
3. Weapon Focus
5. Spear Dancing Style
7. Spear Dancing Spiral
9. Spear dancing Reach
11. Improved TWF

Grandlounge wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
Isn’t there a Druid archetype that is kind built around Shillelaghs?
Green Scourge I think it works better with Flame Blade Dervish Combat. You have to stat it like a caster, channeling cleric, which can to hard on some point buys.

Flame Blade is not worth wasting a feat on.

Flame Blade is not finesse-able because it's a one-handed weapon like the Scimitar, but it doesn't get the Scimitar's crit range. Maxed out it does 1D8+10 fire damage. It is subject to Spell Resistance and is the most common element to have resistances/immunity to.

Unless you have a baller Charisma modifier, it's definitely not worth wasting a feat on. The added movement speed and Acrobatics bonus will help you run away when your Flame Blade does absolutely nothing.

The entirety of Flame Blade Dervish is just underwhelming. I think it's a trap. There are better spells of lower level worth building around.

It's literally the entire point of the entire ability...

They probably won't make a specific archetype if it was not intended to work...

Have a high enough CMD to deny the Limb Climb...

Otherwise, you have been "climbed"...

Honestly, with the advice given thusfar, if you can't put a decent character together, you are truly lost...

Martials are easy, REALLY easy, especially when you're ranged/archer type easy.

The entire understanding of the imbalance is what is important.

As a Strength based Fighter, one trait and one feat, allows you to jump 30' taking 10 on the jump. You can carry the Rogue AND the Wizard in every swim/climb check. You are a monster, on purpose.

Item Mystery feats make up for a whole bunch. If your spellcasting characters are selfish.

So much of what you think of a martial character is dependent on what your spellcasting characters want to prepare for casting.

Play as a team, your martials build specifically towards the gaps in your spells. You use Haste for most CR-equal encounters... saving your juice for the scary encounters.

It's not hard to play as a team.

Val'bryn2 wrote:
More multiclass than prestige, but Wave offers a revelation to see through mist, that, plus Obscuring Mist and Stealth ranks is a recipe for Sneak Attacks

This is a trap!

Can we please drive a stake in the heart of this whole concept?

Unless your party has a Flame Dancer Bard (or everyone has the goggles/masks to let the one Rogue do his dumb trick), spamming Obscuring Mist, opening an Eversmoking Bottle, and all that other BS is a complete detriment to the party.

As for the Dimensional Savant feat tree... Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue, probably the easiest single class build, or the Monk (as you mentioned).

Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster for a multiclassing prestige class build.

I love playing martial characters. Sure, they get outshined by dazing fireballs and often don't have near the social life of the Bard. You have to be smart with your traits and your skills, constantly have to work positioning strategy into your gameplay, and often need help overcoming certain obstacles/conditions. Makes life fun.

Adding a little magic adds a great deal of versatility to the character, but doesn't mean that you have to rely on it. The Inquisitor has spells, but Bane and Judgements are his real power. Bloodrager gets spells, and can contribute to battlefield control helpful to his own positioning strategy, but his real power is Bloodrage... which is the same as a Barbarian for the most part. A Warpriest can use spells, but it's power comes from the Sacred Weapon and Fervor.

Being a ranged martial is going to do even more damage, adding spells and abilities to increase this further makes a mostly martial character that will absolutely contest the pure spellcasters in damage output. A Zen Archer Monk, Fighter archer, certain Ranger archers, Eldritch Archer Magus, an Inquisitor archer, a Warpriest archer all can do massive damage without completely relying on spells (although the Magus does more than the others mentioned).

A true martial, like no magic whatsoever?

A Mutagen Warrior or Viking archetype Fighter using Gorum's Divine Fighting Technique.

The Ragelancepounce Barbarian.

Zen Archer Monk.

Gunslinger, maybe.

Martial focused casters?

Synthesis Summoner.

Wildshaping Druid.

Blood Conduit/Urban Bloodrager (Arcane Bloodline) VMC Magus.



Eldritch Archer Magus.

Arcane Duelist Bard.

Non-typical necromancer build?

Blight Druid 13, Agent of the Grave 5...
Death Domain and the Shade of the Woodlands feat.

It's not the best, but it's doable. Great start to a Lich.

I would still use the False Priest archetype for the added versatility it provides.

There are multiple Bloodlines that benefit blasters.

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If you are using the Slayer chassis, an excellent single level Arcane dip is the Eldritch Scrapper Sorcerer.

This gives you Martial Flexibility.

With Martial Flexibility, you can pick up the Seething Hatred feat, which will double the damage bonus you get from the Slayer Studied Target class feature.

Versatility? Be a Shaman, or a False Priest Sorcerer.

Give him a CL = HD...?

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