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glass wrote:
Oli Ironbar wrote:
Was there ever a PFS rule that you cannot select Human as a category for Bane weapons or Favored Enemy? I vaguely remember seeing something somewhere that you had to specify an ethnicity as a further subtype because so many enemies in PFS are human.

What a horrifying thought! Favoured Enemy is already a bit too close to "racism as a power source", but to make make that literal would be beyond the pale.

Also, this should be in the PFS forum. Flagged for a move.


I think Oli is remembering the PFS ruling on Dedicated Adversary (FE as a feat) which requires you to choose an ethnicity in the case of humanoid: Human.

Diego Rossi wrote:

I am curious to see what abuse you think will happen.

RAW, yes, when the rider charges its mouth is forced into taking a charge action.

That's not what I meant.

I asked if you believed that the mount would automatically be considered to be charging, not if it would be forced into taking the charge action. The former would allow you to spend all of the mount's actions and get a free charge on top of that, which I reacted to.

I've assumed that the mount is never 'forced' into a charge action, just that both rider and mount must take the charge action. A very minor distinction, but one that allows you to perform a charge action while mounted even if the mount doesn't charge. (Wouldn't get any increased dmg, tho)

As for RBA:

If I'm up to speed right now you disregard the SKR statement about double-moving, and RBA's real benefit is actually to allow your mount to perform a special charge that doesn't involve attacking.

It does not allow your mount to count as charging while double-moving, is incompatible with Spring Attack, and would impose the AC penalty on your mount.

Which is a logically consistent view as long as we ignore designer statements from 2010.

Let me see if I get this straight.

You're saying that the FAQ means that whenever the rider takes a charge action, the mount charges as well and it is considered a Mounted Charge? Because that's the only way I can interpret what you're saying here.

That seems ripe for abuse but whatever, I'm not a player at your table.

Phoebus Alexandros wrote:
It is, though. Again, and with respect, it’s simply a modified charge action—one wherein the mount’s movement is changed and it trades an attack in exchange for itself and its rider avoiding an attack of opportunity.

Hey, don't shoot the messenger.

I'm well aware of how Ride-By Attack is meant to work. And I hope everyone plays it as such. But purely RAW RBA doesn't provide a "Mounted Charge" as outlined in the FAQ. The mount is never charging and the feat only mentions you taking the charge action. That isn't enough.

But again, I am in no way arguing that anyone is meant to play RBA as such. You're preaching to the choir when you're trying to convince me it grants a "Mounted Charge". I know. We know.

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zza ni wrote:
can you link that? because as far as i remember when a medium\small creature mount a larger animal he decide in which 5 ft space he occupy.

Combat: Special Attacks: Mounted Combat: Mounts in Combat

"For simplicity, assume that you share your mount’s space during combat."

bbangerter wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:

They are two creatures occupying the same space.
Yes, and also no. If someone moves past my mount, it provokes from both my mount and me. Even though I should only be in one of my mounts squares, and not all 4 at once I still get an AoO regardless of which provoking square the enemy moved through.


I don't know what gave you the impression that I disagree with that. But for clarification's sake, you'd definitely threaten from every square of your mount's.

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Well the first solution was still staying on the mount, and would still count for the spirited charge/etc. rules.

Sure, if we allow a Mounted Charge to trigger when the rider/mount is targeting different creatures for their charges. Bit of a weird precedent but whatever. The second example I vehemently disagree with as it lacks any kind of basis in the rules, but you'd be free to houserule that in your game.

AwesomenessDog wrote:
The point here is more that the limitations of Barracuda Style are different than the limitations of moving yourself in the context of Escape Route, so one can be invalid while the other is not.

Well that was, as I said in my original post, in the event that you disallow Escape Route because you treat mount+rider as a single creature.


Re 1)

AwesomenessDog wrote:
So both you and the mount dropping your guard to move but still perfectly covering each other without an additional party member to cover you doesn't seem impossible/makes sense? Sadly this is another casualty of Piazo wanting it both with overly anal wording then further arbitrated by feel. And again if teamwork feats fall within that exception, then it shouldn't still work if you are moving as a unit.

You are trying to equate the "Own Ally" clause (which you apparently didn't know about before I pointed it out) to a situation completely unrelated to anything it applies to. Escape Route can't be used on your own because it is a teamwork feat, not because I think it wouldn't make sense to "drop your guard to move" and still get the benefit. Please don't bring up the Own Ally FAQ again because it has nothing to do with this.

AwesomenessDog wrote:

It simply doesn't. You have the same space, you dont pick a corner of the mount and draw everything from there, your spaces are the same single space. There is no extra ally covering you, because you both move together.

I agree with the acrobatics example but only partially: the rider is subsumed into the mounts space, only the mount can stop the foe if it fails to beat CMD+5, but failing to beat rider CMD+2 would also mean the rider can take the AoO as well. In either case, this is irrelevant to the fact that you can't cover yourself with ER, except that it stems from the same reason.

It's like you're bouncing between two positions here. Are you saying that ER can't be used because they're both moving (patently false) or because the rider apparently isn't considered to possess a space of their own while mounted?


Re 2)

Allow me to repeat my earlier statement:

You've confused "RAI" with how relatively powerful Escape Route is.

In your opinion mounted ER is too strong for the reasons you've listed. That has absolutely no impact on whether mounted ER works or not. I suggest you just nerf it with a houserule if that's how you want it.

Phoebus Alexandros wrote:
With that in mind, I’ll defer to you on any other relevant FAQs, but the most pertinent one that I’m aware of is the original: it qualifies that a mounted charge involves the rider and the mount charging in unison, incurring the same bonuses and penalties, and following all other rules for the charge.

Well yes. Charging in unison.

And when you use Ride-By Attack your mount is not taking a charge action. It is taking two move actions and doesn't get to attack at all. (I linked the designer statement in my first post)

So Ride-By Attack is a charge action the rider performs while mounted, but it is not a Mounted Charge as outlined in the FAQ from 2014. They essentially broke Ride-By Attack when they changed the base rules so that it doesn't function as intended.

You mean move after the rider hits the 2nd target?

If your mount got movement to spare, then yes.

AwesomenessDog wrote:


Technically you even threaten into/share your own space, again with exception to reach weapons, and you are your own ally for effects, so why would you even need the mount with the teamwork feat for this to work, if leaving your own space was all that was needed to prevent the threaten. Instead, the ally needs to have separate and distinct space from your for this to make any function sense.

You are only your own ally for an effect unless it wouldn't make sense or be impossible. Teamwork feats falls within that exception.

Furthermore, even though you share space with your mount, your mount is still within your space, and vice versa. It's not a single space. It's two spaces overlapping.

For example, if someone attempts to use Acrobatics to move through your space, that creature would have to perform two checks. One for the mount, one for the rider.

AwesomenessDog wrote:


The feat nullifies/makes obsolete several other feats clearly intended for this exact circumstance of "mounted character moving", the main one being Mounted Combat (as anything but a feat tax).

Mounted Combat is not comparable because it's by design not meant to be an AoO solution. Even if you negate the attack against your mount with Mounted Combat, the rider still provokes AoOs from movement. Which makes it an awful tool for AoO negation.

You've confused "RAI" with how relatively powerful Escape Route is. AFAIK there are at least 3 feats that grant you +4 to AC vs AoOs from movement. Escape Route blows them all out of the water whenever you fulfill the requirements.

Is it "intended" that Mobility is worthless compared to what Escape Route can give you? -yes

Does that make it "intended" for the feat to turn itself off if you manage to guarantee that you'll get its effect? -no

AwesomenessDog wrote:
And further, the barracuda argument doesn't hold: you can get the second charge off while mounted even without the mount needing to move again, by either riding through the first enemy to be able to hit a second enemy in a straight line, or even by simply making the DC 20 ride check to free action dismount and begin your second charge free of the mount who might be unable to continue.

I propose you read the 2014 FAQ on mounted combat.

Neither of those solutions would count as a "Mounted Charge" for the purpose of Lance/Spirited Charge, since the mount and rider both need to charge the creature.

Ride-By Attack is however meant to grant you a Mounted Charge, even though it doesn't per RAW, so that should work.

It works.

A mount and its rider are distinctly separated. A mount wouldn't get to ignore difficult terrain if its rider has Dragon Style, and it wouldn't get an AC increase if its rider had Mobility.

They are two creatures occupying the same space. Not one. Escape Route applies to that situation. You can of course make the observation that it is a lot better for mounted builds that always move in tandem with an ally, but this is exactly how the feat works.

If your DM says that Escape Route doesn't work, because you're not distinct creatures, then you should definitely be able to make a case that your previously mentioned Barracuda Dash tactic should work without any investment of the mount's side.

Hello, it is I. The user of FAQs from February.


So to gain the effects of a mounted charge both cavalier and horse charges Enemy "A". The cavalier hits, and as per Barracuda Dash is allowed to perform another charge against an opponent that fulfills the normal charge requirements. We'll call them Enemy "B".

This works fine dismounted, but when you're mounted you rely on your mount's movement... to move. Your mount charged Enemy A and lost all their actions. They do not get to also make a charge against Enemy B since they lack Barracuda Dash which grants the extra action/movement.


Here's a workaround that relies on RAI.

Ride-by Attack isn't a mounted charge as per the FAQ linked. The mount never charges (it just double-moves) so RAW you don't fulfill the requirements of a mounted charge and would neither get the benefit of a Lance or Spirited Charge when you use Ride-By Attack.

Now I really don't think it was intended to have Ride-By Attack be completely incompatible with Spirited Charge which is the next feat in the feat path. That's just an unforeseen consequence of the mess that is mounted combat (and the resulting mess that happened when Paizo wanted to prevent any pounce-lancing from ever happening again).

So even though Ride-By Attack isn't a Mounted Charge, it is clearly meant to be a Mounted Charge. If you then used Ride-By Attack and Wheeling Charge, you could potentially manage to charge two foes while mounted.

First you charge Enemy A as per Ride-By Attack, then you use Wheeling Charge (if needed) to redirect your mount towards Enemy B and use the rest of the Ride-By movement to reach them.

Well you can't have two rage effects active at the same time, right? So to change from Bloodrage to UnRage there can't be a time when both are active. That is, one effect must end before the other starts.

So you'd become fatigued before the second rage ability starts affecting you which prevents you from entering the rage. That's how I reasoned. And since the FAQ never mentions this issue I took that to mean that you aren't fatigued. A stretch, perhaps.

Unless the first rage effect ends within the second rage effect? Which seems to contradict the FAQ.

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A Vigilante can get (specific) bonus feats with every social talent, and through Racial Heritage (Halfling) you can get three additional such talents. Draconscale Loyalist nets you two bonus feats in return for the 1st level social talent. So two bonus feats + 12 talents.

Taking Shield of Fury, Strike the Unseen, Whip of Vengeance, Sweeping Strike, and lastly Signature Weapon grants you 11 feats over 5 talents, ending at 16 bonus feats.

Last addition, replace the human bonus feat with the Focused Study ART for skill focus x3.

43 feats in total, but realistically you'll want to take at least one or two non-feat options. So let's say 41.


Now to make something actually viable:

Whip-n-bash lv 16:
Aldori Caution

Archetype feats
1 EWP (Dueling Sword)
4 Persuasive

Social Talents
3 Social Grace
5 Intrigue Feats: Nerve-Racking Negotiator
7 Intrigue Feats: Street Smarts
8 Intrigue Feats: Sense Relationship
9 Intrigue Feats: Confubalist
11 Intrigue Feats: Sense Assumptions
13 Intrigue Feats: Rhetorical Flourish
14 Always Prepared: Brilliant Planner
15 Intrigue Feats: Persuasive Bribery

Vigilante Talents
2 Shield of Fury: Imp Shield Bash, TWF (6)
4 Lethal Grace: Weapon Finesse -> Power Attack
6 Whip of Vengance: Whip Mastery, Imp Whip Mastery (6)
8 Take 'Em Alive
10 Signature Weapon: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization (8)
12 Animal Patron (Mantis): Lunge
14 Sweeping Strike: Cleave, Great Cleave (6)
16 Strike the Unseen: Blind-fight, Imp Blind-Fight (10), Greater Blind-Fight (16)

Character feats
1 Weapon Finesse
3 Racial Heritage: Halfling
5 Cautious Fighter
7 Shield Slam
9 Imp TWF
11 Shield Master
13 Eldritch Heritage (Orc)
15 Cleaving Finish

Focused Study
1 Diplomacy
8 Survival
16 Perception

Important Gear:
cracked Opalescent White Pyramid ioun stone x2 for proficiency with the Whip and the Madu.

Fighting style:
Aldori Dueling Sword + Shield until the cracked Ioun Stone can be afforded (and implanted). Then Whip-n-Shield.


Stopped at lv 16 because all of the bases are covered by then. Having acquired 34 feats, what's left is spending the 7 feats from 3 social talents, two Vig talents, and two progression feats.

I think you've got something confused here. Spirited Charge doesn't add your strength bonus to dmg. It doubles your normal dmg.

So if you're wielding a Falcion in two hands you'd deal x1.5 STR (+PA, Challenge, etc), and then double it. Like a 2x Crit.

So in total you'd deal x3 STR with Spirited Charge.

Thanks for the link!


Anger management: If I am in a rage, or an Unchained rage, or a bloodrage, or some similar form of rage, can I stack up as many benefits as possible?

No. When you either activate or are affected by a new form of rage (such as a barbarian’s rage, a skald’s raging song, a bloodrager’s bloodrage, and the rage spell), you can choose whether to keep your current rage or to accept the new rage instead, much like a creature affected by multiple polymorph effects. If you are in the throes of a rage that you could not automatically end on your own, such as a wild rager’s wild rage, you may not choose to replace it with a new rage effect. The exception to this rule is the skald’s master skald ability, which explicitly allows the skald’s raging song to stack with other rage effects.

This FAQ is pretty interesting.

You're not actually forced into off-on switching, which would result in you being fatigued and unable to enter rage, but just seamlessly jump to the second rage ability.

So if I was using Bloodrage (+4 Str, +4 Con) and switched to Rapture (+4 Dex, +4 Cha) I would not become fatigued in any way. And if I used the Community-Minded cheese I'd be able to prolong the Bloodrage's +4/+4 for two rounds after the switch.
And vice versa, I suppose.

Mightypion wrote:
Free action Excitation, Free action Bloodrage, Uses his normal Bloodrage for +4 to STR and Con, and his excitation for +4 to Dex and CHA, if one ends he becomes fatigues, which also automatically ends the other.

Actually, fatigue only prevents you from starting rage. It doesn't end rage if you're already raging. You would however become exhausted when you end them both.

Java Man wrote:
Well, my question (with no clear answer to me) is whether or not the faq prohibiting stacking multiple types of rage is intended to apply here.

Huh, is there such a FAQ? (I'd look it up myself but Paizo's FAQ page is horrible.)

Also, Exciter is pretty hilarious in how the designer of the archetype tells on themselves so hard. This is a person who loathes ragecycling, no doubt.

Minigiant wrote:

Not for me, but I have something:


Race: Human
Class: Herald of the Horn + Battle Scion Herald

If you want to truly boost your spellcasting as much as possible, the Court Poet archetype should stack with the above and allows you to boost Int/Cha instead. (And does grant Rage Powers to allies without preventing spellcasting. There's a PFS-specific nerf which replaces your rage powers with extra rounds of performance.)

Minigiant wrote:

Stats – 25 Points

Str: 11
Dex: 12
Cons: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 18+2:20

Wayyy too much spent on Charisma here. If you want high Charisma then you should start out with age category shenanigans. As a Skald you have access to Spring Rage as well.

Minigiant wrote:


1 – Skald – Level – Spell Focus (Evocation)
1 – Skald – Human – Additional Traits: Curator of Mystic Secrets (Exemplar)
3 – Skald – Level – Power Attack
5 – Skald – Level - Extra Rage Power: Spirit Totem, Lesser

Bad choice. You definitely want this one as an actual rage power so that all of your allies get the free slam attack (using your Cha).

I'd honestly not bother with the Hurtful->Cornugon Smash setup. It relies on your allies actually making the check, being in melee, and not having better uses of their swift actions. Quite a few "ifs" when you don't know your team composition.

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VoodistMonk wrote:
I like this, but relying on a potion of Untold Wonder is dubious, at best. I don't know how many Paladins spend their time brewing such things, but I seriously doubt said potions are very common.

I'm certain that all of these paladin potion and wand shenanigans can be tracked down to one specific order. The Abadarians'. Most likely they're all Knights of Coins and have cornered the market with their 10% profit Prosperity Blessing.

Damn them! While we were busy fighting against the forces of evil, they aligned with the market forces!


Mus wrote:
Fail saves against your rage mutagen to get escalating penalties, which are translated into bonuses thanks to untold wonder. So you end up with absurdly high Intelligence and Will bonuses that last for hours and give you unparalleled skill checks plus massive damage with your splash weapons.


What a wonderfully dumb spell. Love it.

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zza ni wrote:
I try to avoid intimidate with this trick as the dc keep rising. And youll need to keep it up to knock people out.

I believe that the +5 DC increase is only if you failed the previous attempt, as it calls it a "retry", not if you made another demoralize after a successful one.

zza ni wrote:

Also the feat keep them unawere of your presence "..The victim cannot detect the source of the sound and dismisses it as the wind or some other mundane source.."

Which allow for full damage hidden strike when you do show up. And without metagaming the vicitm doesn't even know why they have nonlethal damage.

This is false marketing! I paid for a batman build but instead I get a Skyrim stealth archery build without the archery!?

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@zza ni

Something similar can be done with the Eerie Disappearance rogue talent (available to a Vigilante with the Rogue Talent Vig Talent). Intimidate everyone within 60 ft as part of a full-round action to enter stealth while moving.
Pairs well with a 'Human Shadow' ART Halfling for easy access to stealth checks.

Downside is that you need to wait until level 6.


@Mark Hoover 330

Believe it or not, more grappling.
Hangman Vigilante to weave your net into a noose, which you wield as a net and can grapple with. Net Adept turns it into a 10 ft reach weapon which has the previously mentioned advantage of grappling someone outside their reach.
It has some wonky interaction with the original entangled effect but should inflict it while you grapple, making it perfect for the Equipment Trick.

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Good question. The answer is that grappling is convoluted and although never explicitly stated, using a weapon is implied to come with some exceptions to the normal rules.

An example of this is the Mancatcher. A reach weapon that uses the Grapple Special weapon feature. It comes with rules for what you can do after the grapple is successful, so clearly not meant to instantly auto-break the grapple.

Grapple Special Weapon Feature:
On a successful critical hit with a weapon of this type, you can grapple the target of the attack. The wielder can then attempt a combat maneuver check to grapple his opponent as a free action. This grapple attempt does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the creature you are attempting to grapple if that creature is not threatening you. While you grapple the target with a grappling weapon, you can only move or damage the creature on your turn. You are still considered grappled, though you do not have to be adjacent to the creature to continue the grapple. If you move far enough away to be out of the weapon’s reach, you end the grapple with that action.

"If you move far enough away to be out of the weapon’s reach, you end the grapple with that action."

This part is actually impossible with the normal rules for grappling, as the grappled condition prevents you from moving. The only movement possible is to take the "Maintain-Move" action but even then you move both yourself and your target the same distance.
My interpretation of that sentence is that it was intended that grappling with a weapon allows you to move around the grappled target as long as your weapon threatens them.

"You are still considered grappled, though you do not have to be adjacent to the creature to continue the grapple."

Again, same impossibility. But in this case I think "continue the grapple" is actually directly referring to the 'move creature adjacent' clause of the normal grapple rules as failure to do so results in a failed grapple.
So imo using a weapon to grapple means that you are not forced into pulling the enemy adjacent.

Mightypion wrote:
(for which fractional bonuses would be irrelevant).

You still add the +0.5 from overlapping strong saves, and +0.33 for weak saves.

Mightypion wrote:
Bloodrager + Fractured soul, overlap (-2 to fort, nothing in return),

Rather than +2/0/+2, you'd get the following:

+.5 Fort, +.33 Reflex, and +2.5 Will.

So you'd get the exact same Fort and Ref progression as if you hadn't multiclassed, and a noticeable increase in will. I definitely favor the fractional system over the Strong-Save-Stacking that normal multiclassing allows.

It's a good feat but it does have its limitations. The worst part is that it does absolutely nothing for feinting, since it technically isn't a combat maneuver, which has always has an annoying ability split and in most need of skipping INT.

Slight correction:

Dirty Fighting does not help with the prerequisite for Pack Flanking since the feat does not have any improved combat maneuver as a prerequisite.

"This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites."

Dirty Fighting only helps with combat maneuver feats.

Kiba Kurokage wrote:
Human (+2 to any stat, going to STR, Skilled, and eye for talent, Animal Companion you gain gets +2 to a stat, replaces bonus feat. Going towards INT)

Hm. Boosting INT on a companion is usually done to expand their list of available feats. But this can also be achieved at level 4 when the companion gets their first ability score increase.

Is there a particular reason you've chosen to boost INT?

Kiba Kurokage wrote:

Animal Companion (wolf)

L1 Armor proficiency(light) - Combined with barding, you can buff their survivability pretty well.

Armor Prof (Light) is kind of a trap option. The only difference between being proficient and nonproficient in armor is that you apply the Armor Check Penalty to more things if you're not. So if the ACP is 0? No difference.

In the light armor category you can easily buy MWK Studded Leather Barding for a +3 Armor bonus without any need for proficiency. If you spend some extra gold on special materials you can also lower the +4 Armor bonus options to 0 ACP as well.

zza ni wrote:
look for things that increase the duration of your demoralization.

Adding to this, Equipment Trick: Cloak has an ability that has great synergy with the Thug.

"Dazzling Trail (Dazzling Display): When you successfully use Intimidate to demoralize an opponent while wearing a cloak, you can increase the duration of the demoralize effect by 1d4 rounds."

So 1 round base, 1 additional round from the Frightening ability, and +1d4 from the trick.

Polerarm Master is kinda boring. You lose out on both Advanced Armor Training and Advanced Weapon Training so you're there for the bonus feats.
Spear Fighter is okayish but it's pretty much impossible to (effectively) use the Spear Parry ability until level 15.
Disciple of the Pike doesn't really gain a lot. You're locked out of AWT so it's just an accuracy/dmg boost.

If we're talking Cavalier then Daring Champion works for a spear build. Champion's Finesse applies to the Sibat (a fancy shortspear) and qualifies for Slashing Grace.

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Battle Dancer Brawler has been part of many of my multiclasses. It's crazy how hard it is to find abilities that allows you to move while full-attacking. Dip two levels and you've gotten the gimmick, so it fits perfectly with the Magical Knack trait if you wanted some martial aid on your 6th level caster.

Big boi coming thru
Battle Dancer 2 / Swarm Shifter 1
Friendly Switch allows you to do a lot of ally shuffling when you effectively have three 5-ft steps per round. The swift-action size increase from Swarm Shifter (not a polymorph effect so you can wield weapons) increases the length of the ally displacement while also allowing you to share space with creatures.
Dwarven Heavy Axe-Gauntlet (part of the Close Weapon Group) is probably your best weapon for the 1d8->2d6 size increase, if you can't use the Versatile Design cheese.

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VoodistMonk wrote:
Perfect build for the Concilator story feat...

Huh, look at that. Good thing the 1st level feat is untouched (if your backstory is convincing enough to let you qualify).

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Thread is still going on, eh?

Friend in every place
Lv 2 Cleric or Life Oracle (really, anyone with Channel Energy)
Human with the Silver Tongued and Focused Study ARTs. Silver Tongued allows us to improve someone's attitude by three steps when using diplomacy and provides a skill bonus. Focused Study grants us Skill Focus at lv 1, 8, and 16. Then Patient Optimist character trait (and Empathic Diplomat as a Cleric for Wis-to-Diplo).
Finish off with the Authoritative Vestments to perform an AoE diplo check against everyone within 60 ft as a swift action multiple times a day. You should have about a +18 diplo bonus for this.

DeathlessOne wrote:
A Skald that chooses ERP at every opportunity is quickly going to find out that such choices are not the best ones

*Immature giggling*

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Pandreas wrote:

Hello everyone, I hope you are all having a great day!

So by looking up character Ideas (i have to admit i was lookign to find something strong) i stumpled across this "Scion of Humanity Aasimiar Lunar Oracle" build, wich apparently a lot of people seem to know but i dont fully understand it :(

I did a quick googling but couldn't find the specific build you are referring to. Here are my assumptions.


Aasimar has a Favored Class Bonus, which you can choose instead of +1 HP or +1 skill rank whenever you gain a level in Oracle, which improves the effect of a single revelation:
"Add +1/6 to the oracle’s level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation."

So at level 12 if you had taken this FCB twelve times it would mean one of your revelations were at an effective Oracle level of 12+2=14. This isn't very impressive.
But! This option was nerfed in 2015. Before that, it gave +1/2 effective Oracle level. So at level 12 you would have an effective Oracle level of 12+6=18. This made it a cornerstone of a lot of powerful builds that are now outdated.


The Lunar (as in Lunar Oracle) mystery has access to the Primal Companion Revelation. Combined with the pre-nerf FCB this meant you could have an Animal Companion that scaled 50% faster than a Druid's. So in the above example the companion would have an effective level of 18 while you were level 12.
The question of above-level companions is a separate issue and was also nerfed, btw.

Lunar also gains the Prophetic Armor revelation, allowing you to dump Dexterity with little to no repercussions if you've taken the Noble Scion feat for Cha-to-Initiative. A common tactic.


As for how Scion of Humanity comes into play... The Half-Elf was also able to do the FCB trick (as they can choose the Elf FCB which was the same) and already counts as Human for prerequisites. They also have the advantage of qualifying for the Paragon Surge spell which was used for a lot of shenanigans before it, you guessed it, was nerfed.

My guess is that those builds wanted to specifically qualify for some Aasimar racial feature while also qualifying for something human-only like Racial Heritage. Since companions were all the rage back then, it must have been the Celestial Servant feat. Adding the Celestial Template with a boosted effective level meant they are given a lot of goodies, like Damage Reduction/Energy Resistance/Darkvision, at a very fast rate.


Verdict: Don't bother with the Aasimar combo, the build is most likely outdated by now.


Can't hurt!


Arbalest - Paladin

Heavy armor, dealing massive dmg, and ability to heal allies? Yup, that's a paladin.

The Double Crossbow. Second heaviest (held) ranged weapon in the game and hits like a truck. But in return it imposes a big attack penalty and has issues reloading. We're circumventing these issues with the tricks outlined here.

I'd probably take Oath of Vengeance or Oath of the Skyseeker to make my Smites last. We're relying on Smites to deal dmg so that's important.

Flagellant - Vigilante 12 / Bard 1

"His power lies within the martyrdom, and it is something that transcends physical laws: every action of violence that lands on his tortured corpus creates not an equal, but a far more potent reaction."

If we're aiming to deliberately take damage then the Song of Sarkoris Bardic Masterpiece is a very strong choice. Which is available as long as we have just a single Bard/Skald level and pay with a feat.

Probably going down the Resilient Martyr-> Healer's Hands-> Signature Skill(Heal) route in combination with the Unkillable Vigilante Talent to be able to soak a lot of punishment.

To make the performance rounds last a day, we're cheesing it with a Tuned Bowstring and switching weapons during our full-attack to make the last one with a bow. Gonna need a prehensile tail or Gloves of Storing for that as our main weapon obviously is a heavy flail.

Bounty Hunter - Transporter Ranger

Mostly focusing on his camping skills here, but Plot Course would grant a scaling bonus to the entire party's Initiative/Perception/Stealth which certainly helps with scouting and avoiding being surprised.

As for combat, Transporter unfortunately doesn't stack with any of the more flexible FE archetypes. But starting at level 11 you should have four casts of Instant Enemy available if you've bought a Lesser Rod of Echoing (14,000), which is enough to last all the important fights in a day. Planar Heritage (Duskwalker) would result in a +8 FE (Undead) bonus by now.

Hook Fighter to reposition foes within 15 ft, and Pushing Assault to push them away.

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I think you remember the Fat Tail Kobold build from the previous low lv build thread. Some other off-the-shelf ideas scavenged from higher level builds would be the following.

Master of all
lv 2 or 3 (not class-specific)
Arms Master + Quick Learner means you can lower the nonproficiency penalty from all exotic weapons to 0. Buy a golfbag of them and go to town. The only "level restriction" is being able to buy all the different weapons you want to use.
There's a Vigilante build you can go for if you want to continue shuffling weapons beyond the low levels.

Long arm of the law, crook!
lv 2 Brawler (Strangler / Verdant Grappler)
The Crook. Use it to Grapple people outside of their reach, leaving them unable to retaliate. Since it is not using the Grapple Special Weapon Feature, you can choose to pin while using the Crook. Which pairs well with the Green Grasp's ability to tie up your target with summoned vines.

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Hand's Sight might give you what you want. Blinded Master does grant blindsight but it's a fairly huge feat investment and will RAW only work during combat as you can't enter a style outside of it (yes, dumb).

Taz'Raul wrote:
is with the dhampir's racial blood drinking feats and traits

The biggest weakness of Blood Drinker is that it is specific to a single humanoid subtype. One way to circumvent this issue is to take the Racial Paragon Vigilante Talent which allows you to flex into racial feats, so that you can choose what subtype you want at the start of combat.

Taz'Raul wrote:
I was also thinking about something monk related, see if I can flurry with my bite. Get several quick blood drains in succession potentially to build up a full stack of temp hp?

Yeah, that's solid. UnMonk is your best bet for offense, but Brawler could be worth considering especially if you choose to go Dex-based.


STR based:
Jiang-Shi-Born (+2 Str, +2 Int, -2 Dex)

20 PB
Str 15+2, Dex 14-2, Con 14, Int 10+2, Wis 14, Cha 8

Aldori Caution

Vigilante (Avenger) 1-4
1 Blood Drinker (Human?), Guise of Unlife
2 Racial Paragon
3 Weapon Focus (Bite), +1 Social Talent
4 Shield of Blades: Power Attack (B)

Windstep Master UnMonk 1
5 Feral Combat Training, Deflect Arrows (B), IUS (B), Hurricane Punch (B), Flurry

Style Shifter 1
6 Crane Style (B), Style Aspects

Misc gear:
Dueling Dagger in off hand.

Fighting Defensively:
Just -1 to attack from Style Aspects.
+2 base, +1 from Acrobatics 3 ranks, +1 from trait, +1 from Crane Style, +1 from Dueling Dagger
= +6


Use Racial Paragon to flex into Diverse Palate so that you can drink from all humanoids and monstrous humanoids you encounter. Blood Salvage can be used in an emergency.

Make sure to buy your party spellcaster some Runestones of Power or Pearls of Power so that they can cast Mage Armor on you.

This, in combination with Shield bonus from Shield of Blades and the +6 AC from Fighting Defensively, should keep your AC competitive.

Another vote on Seeking. You barely need See Invisibility with it as you can effortlessly just target their square.

Veering is not a good investment, though. It's a +2 bonus to attack, but only against enemies benefiting from some type of cover.
A straight increase to the enhancement bonus will grant you +1/+1 to Att/Dmg at all times so the Veering ability is effectively just a circumstantial +1 bonus to attack.

If you are worried about Wind Wall or underwater combat, then the +2 equivalent Cyclonic is a priority.
Silver Nocking Point is a cheaper solution to Wind Wall, but only partially solves the issue.

Bloody-Knuckled Rowdy has an annoying hiccup compared to other style archetypes (MoMS, Unarmed Fighter, Style Shifter) which is that you still need to fulfill the prerequisites for the bonus feat you get at 2nd level. There's not a huge selection of feats available to you at that moment.

Thematically it's also a miss since the aim of the archetype is to allow you to "dabble in multiple techniques, mixing and matching their array of vicious maneuvers to suit the occasion" but provides you with no such ability.

It would have helped immensely if the archetype added style-related feats to your pool of Bloodline Feats like the Blood Conduit does (but with the caveat that you must qualify for them) or just straight up replaced the normal pool like Id Rager.

Overclockworked wrote:
Honestly I just read they can AoO on a reddit post and took that answer for granted, so thank you for making me actually look into this. I'm fairly certain however that RAW they can AoO, though I get it might seem odd.

Eh, RAW the doubles can only do what is outlined in their description and nothing else.

RAW, and RAI, the doubles don't even have an attack bonus at level 5. The only stats they possess are AC, CMD, and saving throws. Which is why you're using your BAB+INT for the Aid Another checks you can direct them to perform rather than their attack rolls.

AoO not being an action type does allows a stunned creature to still perform AoOs, but this is a faulty reading of the rules that conflates the general use of the word "actions" with the specific meaning "action types".

But if you've already convinced your GM then go for it. If you choose Nature Fang I'd mount your companion and circle around the battlefield, dropping of the doubles in strategic positions. If you can squeeze in the Escape Route feat then neither you or the mount will provoke AoOs when it moves.

It's an archetype that introduces a pretty restricted and complex shadow double ability while also doing away with the Slayer's main accuracy booster. I guess most people don't think it's worth the hassle.

Overclockworked wrote:

Thoughts about the Ankou Shadow

- Shadows seem to threaten with whatever weapon you're wielding, and can take AoOs post-5. You can make trip attacks with weapon AoOs, so thusly, shadows should be able to trip.

I'd disagree with that they can take AoOs. The lv 5 shadows are extremely limited in what they can do and I don't think AoOs are part of that. As written they seem unable to do anything but move (as part of your move action), provide flanking, and aid another at your command.

It's first at level 15 that you could actually instruct one of them to open a door, which seems a lot less complex than taking an AoO. You could argue that they're able to take AoOs at level 10 when you can use them as origin points for attacks, but a stricter GM may say that's in the purview of the capstone.

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
I've always been a sucker for underdog PCs, builds that don't optimize the obvious or even "best" class abilities.

Then make a literal underdog build by boosting what's normally an awful companion choice by a couple effective druid levels. A 16th level Dog is still worse than a 12th level Tiger.

It's not a big deal even if you choose a good companion to boost since companions have awful scaling at later levels, and most of their power comes from player wealth and class abilities. If you play below 10th level you'd likely not even notice the difference since you can only increase your companion's effective level by one for every three levels it already had.

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
Currently I'm trying to wrap my head around Energy Channel.

I'd try a lancer. You add slightly more damage than your level, like an elemental challenge, and by charging you make full use of it only lasting for three attacks.

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:
Oli et al who like the multiclass cheese of exploiting Animal Ally and Boon Companion... why? Like, a Cohort can't ever be more than 2 levels lower than a PC, Eidolons and Familiars don't have this kind of potential, WHY would we think that Animal Companions should be this powerful?

Sounds like you didn't follow the previously linked post. It is explicitly allowed for a 12th level character to have a companion with an effective druid level of 16.

The Boon Companion shenanigans wouldn't work though.

zza ni wrote:
Oli Ironbar wrote:

It's the cheesiest, but Nature Soul into Animal Ally with Boon Companion while taking the Small Cat option. With an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fist, the damage from it's claw/claw/bite/trip is close to scaling with a 3/4 martial.

But with Boon Companion or a class that grants the Small Cat as an option, it's been ruled that even in PFS the Animal Companion can advance beyond your character level up to the point that it's Hit Die exceeds your character level by 1. At 7th level you then have the fluffiest, fiercest full fledged front liner.

can you please link that ruling? (i would really like to find it, i have a ranger with that feat and if it work his companion get a +1 to level)

Well, here's the change that introduced a limit to your companion's effective level. It came in response to the busted "+1/2 Oracle level for one revelation" FCB that was later on changed to just +1/6.

However, this does not change how Boon Companion works since the feat introduces a max cap of Druid Level = Character Level.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Wonderstell wrote:
I think the easiest solution would be to use Looney Tunes logic. Just "remind" the universe that the failure was a success and have the consequences of that event immediately occur when Feign Destiny is activated.
And what are the consequences? The barbarian not being confused?

Yup, only that. (Which would be a waste of the ability since the barb is already dead.)

In the original example the Ogre would be "reminded" that they had actually taken the hit and die 80 ft away from the Cavalier. Physics don't apply until the Ogre realizes they're dead.

Belafon wrote:
2) The writer was trying to do a good thing and prevent the RAW lawyers from saying “it just takes an immediate action to use it, but I can use it at any time. So I’m going to use it on that feeblemind I failed yesterday after I was out of daily uses of Feign Destiny.” However the better wording would have been “you must use this ability immediately after the result of the check is declared.”

That would have been hilariously exploitable. Imagine finally hitting lv 10 and the Mesmerist asks the GM if the new +5 bonus would have been enough to make the failed save that ended your previous character three levels earlier.


Diego Rossi wrote:
it is a 3rd level ability. Having it turn back time is a bit excessive, but if time doesn't rewind, it working if used within a round creates a lot of problems.

Hm. But if time does rewind, have I really spent a daily use of my ability since I do so after the event occurs? Is my immediate action gone?

I think the easiest solution would be to use Looney Tunes logic. Just "remind" the universe that the failure was a success and have the consequences of that event immediately occur when Feign Destiny is activated.

In your defense, the rules for mounted combat are so convoluted that the devs just gave up and created pathfinder 2e instead of trying to salvage them.

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