Magus Spellstrike triggers AoO!

[CaffeinatedNinja]

So, it appears as written that spellstrike, which has the subordinate Cast a Spell activity, triggers AoO.

Please tell me this wasn’t intended? Magus is a d8 martial, if they trigger AoO trying to do their melee move, it is going to be death against a lot of enemies.

Would love to get an official ruling on this one.

[graystone]

Well... Once I get to see the PDF, I can see what you mean. Until them though...

[Blave]

I brought that up during Playtest. I guess paizo thinks it's fine?

I mean, it might be. Hard to tell. It could be intersting to have some enemies that make using your main ability very risky. If you're unwilling to take that risk, you're probably stuck with activating Cascade at a distance before going into melee with regular strikes.

Still, I don't think anyone would play Monk if Flurry of Blows triggered AoOs...

[The Raven Black]

Not so many enemies have AoOs, especially at lower levels.

Maybe some other parts of the Magus (maybe coming with the hybrid studies) help mitigate that ?

I do not have the book either, so I cannot tell for sure.

[HumbleGamer]

Seems good to me.

After all it's just an eldritch shot 2.0 ( way, way more performant in terms of action management ), which deals the same extraordinary amount of damage.

Consider also the party is there to help allies, and that a specific AoO might be "deliberately" triggered from another character ( I, for example, used to stride with my champion trying to trigger enemies AoO in order to allow my allies to take the stride action rather than 2x step ).

Finally, as The Raven Black pointed out, not all enemies have AoO.

"Damn, the enemy has AoO... a spellcaster like me is going to have a hard time against him... Wait! I am a combatant"

Yes, there's also the possibility not to spam spellstrike like a bot round after round, and instead rely in normal strikes.

[Kalaam]

There is also reactions from some other classes your allies might have to protect you from an AoO. Having that kind of weakness is fine imo.

[WWHsmackdown]

Makes inexorable irons or sparkling targes tankiness even more appealing. Can't wait to try and build a death knight out of magus.

[Kyrone]

Probably to make Magus not spam Spellstrike mindless and put all slots in spells to do it, that makes spells like Blinkering charge and other gishy spells attractive to the class as well.

[nick1wasd]

There's also not many AoOs that proc off Manipulate/Concentrate actions specifically. It's mostly "a ranged attack while in melee". Which most Magus favorited spells like Produce Flame and Shocking Grasp are not ranged spell attack rolls, but melee spell attack rolls.

[Karmagator]

While it isn't great - this makes you the class most susceptible to AoO - I absolutely understand why the baseline version is how it is. Spellstrike is an absurdly powerful ability, even with the need to recharge.

What I find kind of puzzling is that we don't have a high-level feat that allows for a way around that or at least heavily mitigates it. Especially since the Sixth Pillar archetype clearly shows that that is something within the design constraints. Steady Spellcasting is just too unreliable to really fill that space.

Whether this is a real problem or not will entirely depend on the campaign you are playing in. In most campaign, you have a couple of AoO (or similar) enemies here and there and that is absolutely fine. But a high-level game filled with draconic enemies or a fiend-centric campaign? Or something like War for the Crown, where you have entire books full of soldier-type NPCs? That's not gonna be a lot of fun, I imagine.

[Schreckstoff]

I think that's good. AoOs aren't a given and figuring them out and dealing with them is a core component of 2e combat.

[Kalaam]

nick1wasd wrote:

There's also not many AoOs that proc off Manipulate/Concentrate actions specifically. It's mostly "a ranged attack while in melee". Which most Magus favorited spells like Produce Flame and Shocking Grasp are not ranged spell attack rolls, but melee spell attack rolls.

Not sure that even spellstriking, say, Acid Arrow would trigger since you make a melee attack and not a ranged one.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

Karmagator wrote:

While it isn't great - this makes you the class most susceptible to AoO - I absolutely understand why the baseline version is how it is. Spellstrike is an absurdly powerful ability, even with the need to recharge.

What I find kind of puzzling is that we don't have a high-level feat that allows for a way around that or at least heavily mitigates it. Especially since the Sixth Pillar archetype clearly shows that that is something within the design constraints. Steady Spellcasting is just too unreliable to really fill that space.

Whether this is a real problem or not will entirely depend on the campaign you are playing in. In most campaign, you have a couple of AoO (or similar) enemies here and there and that is absolutely fine. But a high-level game filled with draconic enemies or a fiend-centric campaign? Or something like War for the Crown, where you have entire books full of soldier-type NPCs? That's not gonna be a lot of fun, I imagine.

Spellstrike is awesome, but it is the classes damage booster, otherwise they don’t have much. This is going to make the magus a featherweight in a lot of fights, I would love confirmation on if this was intended or not, given it isn’t exactly spelled out in spell strike but buried in subordinate rules.

I mean it specifically says spellstrike isn’t cast a spell for purposes of metamaguc, but it is for AoO?

Also, in playtest at least you could charge your spell then move in to strike, avoiding the AoO. Not so here.

[Karmagator]

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

Spellstrike is awesome, but it is the classes damage booster, otherwise they don’t have much. This is going to make the magus a featherweight in a lot of fights, I would love confirmation on if this was intended or not, given it isn’t exactly spelled out in spell strike but buried in subordinate rules.

I mean it specifically says spellstrike isn’t cast a spell for purposes of metamaguc, but it is for AoO?

Also, in playtest at least you could charge your spell then move in to strike, avoiding the AoO. Not so here.

It is absolutely intended. It was before in the playtest and as it wasn't changed, we have to assume it still is. If it wasn't, it would have been explicitly stated in the rules. That is just how spells work in 2e.

Unless you are in a campaign or at least a chapter that is packed full with AoO enemies, AoO is more than rare enough to not make it a huge problem. You are a lot better off than barbarians, who are completely shut down by being downed once (unless you take a feat) or ranged characters that get the grabbed condition. And those are just a few examples that are vastly more common. Also people do not have infinite reactions, so even enemies with AoO are not an insurmountable problem.

And it's not like this is the only thing the magus can do. Blow a cantrip or something and casacde. Or just go ahead an whack a dude. You are still a pretty good martial.

[nephandys]

Kalaam wrote:

nick1wasd wrote:

There's also not many AoOs that proc off Manipulate/Concentrate actions specifically. It's mostly "a ranged attack while in melee". Which most Magus favorited spells like Produce Flame and Shocking Grasp are not ranged spell attack rolls, but melee spell attack rolls.

Not sure that even spellstriking, say, Acid Arrow would trigger since you make a melee attack and not a ranged one.

The default for attack of opportunity is to trigger off of manipulate actions, move actions, and ranged attacks. That would include all Focus spells and any other spell with somatic or material components.

[YuriP]

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

I mean it specifically says spellstrike isn’t cast a spell for purposes of metamaguc, but it is for AoO?

Probably because in fact is not the spellcasting who cause AoO but the manipulate trait of most spells that do this. If we think further later there's some very rare cases like Fighters in Disruptive Stance could also do AoO against concentration too what's mean that also the verbal spells (that have concentration trait) may be included since mid-game againt some opponents meaning that all spellcasting could trigger an AoO.

So thinking like this not so strange that Magus have such limitation. All others spellcasters have to face such problems too. What could solve this is if the Magus have some feat like bard's Unusual Composition for they spellstrike.

[Porridge]

This does seems like a drawback the Magus needs to take into considerations. But there are also a number of ways to work around this built into the class:

The Inexorable Iron study is naturally used with polearms, many of which have reach.

The Twisting Tree study allows you to add reach to your staff (and the Lunging Spellstrike feat (10) allows you to extend that reach to a ridiculous degree).

The Starlight Span study allows you to use spellstrike with ranged weapons.

And they have the Steady Spellcasting feat (4) to help with the times you are critically hit by an AOO.

So it seems like this is something you can work around with a little planning.

[Squiggit]

This seems really punishing for skirmisher style Magi. Do they really need the penalty over their ranged and heavier counterparts?

AoOs are theoretically pretty rare, but they show up a lot in published material, which makes it hard to write this off as a non-issue like some people want to.

Additionally, is it fun? Spellstrike is your premiere combat mechanic, it's the main draw of the class and while yeah you can "just hit things" instead, but you're not going to be all that good at it without a combat mechanic.

A Rogue's combat mechanic is also unreliable, but at least it doesn't kill you if you mess it up. A Barbarian's combat mechanic makes them squishier, but it's something that's consistent at the very least. Would any of you say Fighters would be more fun if there was a chance to lose a third of your health instead of getting that +2 to hit sometimes?

IDK I feel like having it work this way is just telling people to play reach and ranged Magi, because that sidesteps the problem entirely.

Porridge wrote:

So it seems like this is something you can work around with a little planning.

Most of those aren't really planning though, it's just playing a completely different build.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

Squiggit wrote:

This seems really punishing for skirmisher style Magi. Do they really need the penalty over their ranged and heavier counterparts?

AoOs are theoretically pretty rare, but they show up a lot in published material, which makes it hard to write this off as a non-issue like some people want to.

Additionally, is it fun? Spellstrike is your premiere combat mechanic, it's the main draw of the class and while yeah you can "just hit things" instead, but you're not going to be all that good at it without a combat mechanic.

A Rogue's combat mechanic is also unreliable, but at least it doesn't kill you if you mess it up. A Barbarian's combat mechanic makes them squishier, but it's something that's consistent at the very least. Would any of you say Fighters would be more fun if there was a chance to lose a third of your health instead of getting that +2 to hit sometimes?

IDK I feel like having it work this way is just telling people to play reach and ranged Magi, because that sidesteps the problem entirely.

Porridge wrote:

So it seems like this is something you can work around with a little planning.

Most of those aren't really planning though, it's just playing a completely different build.

Kind of hoping someone will come tell us this was not planned and they left out a line in spellstrike lol.

[QuidEst]

Seems reasonable to me. Precision damage doesn't apply against certain enemies; melee spellstrike isn't a good idea against others. So in some cases, you'll find yourself just entering your stance for bonus damage and letting another player take the spotlight.

[YuriP]

Squiggit wrote:

This seems really punishing for skirmisher style Magi. Do they really need the penalty over their ranged and heavier counterparts?

I don't think so. Ranged weapons, even bows are naturally weaker than melee weapons and reach weapons are very good alternatives to avoid the rare cases of AoO. I don't know how hard could be but a man-at-arms magus could solve most of these problems and adapt mostly all situations.

IMO it's appears that the magus designer may wanted to keep some of strategic gameplay choices concept of the spellcasters in magus combat gameplay.

[Squiggit]

QuidEst wrote:

Seems reasonable to me. Precision damage doesn't apply against certain enemies; melee spellstrike isn't a good idea against others.

A precision ranger who hits something immune to precision damage isn't liable to get downed for their mistake, though. That's more equivalent to the Magus fighting something with Magic Immunity (which, y'know, also is a thing that exiss). Though I'd also agree that precision immunity isn't a great mechanic either.

Plus like I said, it only really effects certain Magi significantly. Is a Magus with a Longsword that much stronger than a Magus with a halberd or shortbow that it needs the extra consideration?

I guess it's one more reason to look at picking up a Flickmace, because there aren't enough of those already.

[gesalt]

Squiggit wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

Seems reasonable to me. Precision damage doesn't apply against certain enemies; melee spellstrike isn't a good idea against others.

A precision ranger who hits something immune to precision damage isn't liable to get downed for their mistake, though. That's more equivalent to the Magus fighting something with Magic Immunity (which, y'know, also is a thing that exiss). Though I'd also agree that precision immunity isn't a great mechanic either.

Plus like I said, it only really effects certain Magi significantly. Is a Magus with a Longsword that much stronger than a Magus with a halberd or shortbow that it needs the extra consideration?

I guess it's one more reason to look at picking up a Flickmace, because there aren't enough of those already.

laughing shadow open hand flick magus sounds like a fun time for everyone

[QuidEst]

Squiggit wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

Seems reasonable to me. Precision damage doesn't apply against certain enemies; melee spellstrike isn't a good idea against others.

A precision ranger who hits something immune to precision damage isn't liable to get downed for their mistake, though. That's more equivalent to the Magus fighting something with Magic Immunity (which, y'know, also is a thing that exiss). Though I'd also agree that precision immunity isn't a great mechanic either.

Plus like I said, it only really effects certain Magi significantly. Is a Magus with a Longsword that much stronger than a Magus with a halberd or shortbow that it needs the extra consideration?

I guess it's one more reason to look at picking up a Flickmace, because there aren't enough of those already.

A precision Ranger who hits something immune to precision damage does less damage than a Magus hitting something without using Spellstrike, thanks to the stance. Yeah, if you decide to go in and repeatedly use Spellstrike anyway, you're going to have an unpleasant time. But after the first AoO, which still has a chance to go in the Magus' favor, you can just stick to your boring bonus damage or ranged cantrips.

Unless you're saying that one surprise AoO will probably take the Magus down. "Surprise, it has an AoO" hits plenty of characters as a surprise if you're not leading with knowledge checks.

[keftiu]

Yet another reason to roll Starlit Span :)

[YuriP]

Yea, I think some people are overestimating the AoO. The worst case that probably happens is the player notice that the opponent can do AoO and change his strategies.

[The-Magic-Sword]

Heck, ot can be beneficial to bait the AOO out fir party members on more dire straits than yourself.

[wegrata]

You can always take the AoO to help a champion get off their reactions. Not optimal but taking a hit to setup a companion is a trope in fantasy.

[Kalaam]

wegrata wrote:

You can always take the AoO to help a champion get off their reactions. Not optimal but taking a hit to setup a companion is a trope in fantasy.

If you're using a tankier Study as a Magus I can see this being a valid tactic. I already see the situation, as they took the hit, taking no damage from both tempHP and the champion's reaction: "gotcha".

Now I wonder, if an AoO hits you, but doesn't deal damage (because of tempHP and a damage reduction) does it disturbs the action you were taking ?

[HumbleGamer]

AoO only disturbs on a critical hit, not just on a normal hit ( unless disruptive stance lvl 10 fighter feat, if I recall correct ) regardless the damage the target takes.

Since it gets no MAP, I wouldn't deliberately trigger it as a magus ( I'd probably go with 2 strikes and maybe a raise shield, or some skill like demoralize, feint or even bon mot ).

[TheGentlemanDM]

Temp HP still counts as getting hit.

It seems very unlikely that you'll get enough damage reduction to completely negate a crit, but if you somehow did, I'd rule that you wouldn't get disrupted.

[wegrata]

Does sparkling targe have a way to deal with having both hands full to cast spells with somatic components?

[Kyrone]

wegrata wrote:

Does sparkling targe have a way to deal with having both hands full to cast spells with somatic components?

Somatic components don't stop anything on any caster if you have the hands full.

[Kalaam]

Material components would be the only one being an issue, making Magus the only caster who naturally benefits from Eschew Materials xD

[Kyrone]

Kalaam wrote:

Material components would be the only one being an issue, making Magus the only caster who naturally benefits from Eschew Materials xD

They can use the weapon as material component, drawing sigils with it in the air.

[Ashanderai]

Kyrone wrote:

Kalaam wrote:

Material components would be the only one being an issue, making Magus the only caster who naturally benefits from Eschew Materials xD

They can use the weapon as material component, drawing sigils with it in the air.

Is it still the same as the Eschew Materials in the playtest where you still had to have a hand free? If so, wouldn't that still be a problem for a Magus using both hands on their weapons, like the Sparkling Targe and Inexorable Iron Hybrid Studies?

[Squiggit]

Doesn't say anything about still needing a hand free, just that you can use a free hand or your weapon to replace material components.

[Guntermench]

Kalaam wrote:

Material components would be the only one being an issue, making Magus the only caster who naturally benefits from Eschew Materials xD

Nope, you need a completely free hand to use that.

Eschew Materials wrote:

Unlike when providing somatic components, you still must have a hand completely free

[Ashanderai]

Guntermench wrote:

Kalaam wrote:

Material components would be the only one being an issue, making Magus the only caster who naturally benefits from Eschew Materials xD

Nope, you need a completely free hand to use that.

Eschew Materials wrote:

Unlike when providing somatic components, you still must have a hand completely free

Are you quoting the playtest Magus 1st level Eschew Materials feat or the final version from SoM?

[Guntermench]

Oh, do they have a different one from Wizard?

[Squiggit]

Magus no longer has an Eschew Material feat. They just can replace material components with gestures with a free hand or their weapon full stop as part of their spellcasting.

It's more like the Sorcerer feature (except with the ability to use your weapon) than the wizard feat.

[Guntermench]

Interesting.

[Ashanderai]

Squiggit wrote:

Magus no longer has an Eschew Material feat. They just can replace material components with gestures with a free hand or their weapon full stop as part of their spellcasting.

It's more like the Sorcerer feature (except with the ability to use your weapon) than the wizard feat.

Awesome! Thanks for clarifying that; I was really confused about how that was going to work.

[Romão98]

If the magus uses spellstrike + Acid Splash without a weapon with reach trait does he also take splash damage?

[graystone]

Romão98 wrote:

If the magus uses spellstrike + Acid Splash without a weapon with reach trait does he also take splash damage?

Does anyone take splash damage from Acid Splash other than the target? The Splash Trait is what gives to bombs: "When you use a thrown weapon with the splash trait, you don't add your Strength modifier to the damage roll. If an attack with a splash weapon fails, succeeds, or critically succeeds, all creatures within 5 feet of the target (including the target) take the listed splash damage."

[gesalt]

graystone wrote:

Romão98 wrote:

If the magus uses spellstrike + Acid Splash without a weapon with reach trait does he also take splash damage?

Does anyone take splash damage from Acid Splash other than the target? The Splash Trait is what gives to bombs: "When you use a thrown weapon with the splash trait, you don't add your Strength modifier to the damage roll. If an attack with a splash weapon fails, succeeds, or critically succeeds, all creatures within 5 feet of the target (including the target) take the listed splash damage."

acid splash wouldn't make much sense if its splash damage only worked on a hit and only on the initial target. Assuming it does indeed splash everything within 5 ft, the magus would get hit too.

[Romão98]

I'm putting the pieces together little by little to understand Magus with this spoilers haha. So far I believe that it is better to use spells like burning hands instead of fireball with spellstrike (If you take the 2 level feat) and that the best hybrid study to use spells with splash damage is Inexorable Iron this HS even has a feat that interacts with such spells.

And yes, Acid splash does damage to nearby creatures even without that trait.

[graystone]

gesalt wrote:

acid splash wouldn't make much sense if its splash damage only worked on a hit and only on the initial target.

IMO it makes sense just fine as it triggers splash damage weakness without that pesky splash damage hitting anyone else in the area. It's niche is anti-swarm/troop.

Romão98 wrote:

And yes, Acid splash does damage to nearby creatures even without that trait.

Can you point to a rule that allow that? Nothing about splash damage itself grants an area attack that I know of. I pointed to the only rule I know of that grants splash damage for an area and it's only for weapons with the Splash trait and Acid Splash neither has the trait or is a weapon.

I was hoping in a new book about magic that questions like this about magic would be answered. People have been asking about Acid Splash since the game came out.

[Romão98]

graystone wrote:

Can you point to a rule that allow that?

Yes and no, luckily there is a Acid spell in SoM that explicitly confirms that acid splash affects all nearby creatures. I don't remember the name of the spell but if you have the book you will probably find it easy. There are so many Secrets of Magic forums that I get lost with so many spoilers hahaha!

[graystone]

Romão98 wrote:

graystone wrote:

Can you point to a rule that allow that?

Yes and no, luckily there is a Acid spell in SoM that explicitly confirms that acid splash affects all nearby creatures. I don't remember the name of the spell but if you have the book you will probably find it easy. There are so many Secrets of Magic forums that I get lost with so many spoilers hahaha!

Ok, I'll be on the lookout for that when I get the book. If it really does splash 5' then I'd suggest using it with one of the reach/ranged options.