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I've been talking to my group, and we think that is a real underdog in comparison to magical casters, or even damage dealers, we get that it is supposed to be a "support" class but none the less teh gap between this class and any other is too big, like if you wanna do something there is a class that would perform better no matter the subject (except from maybe downtime, questionable as well).
Not to mention that because of some reason Mutagen are Item bonuses, which can be obtained permanently through the game mostly with time and money, rendering them useless at some point in time, and not to talk of your "perpetual 11th items" on your 17th level depending OF COURSE of your research field.
We are thinking mostly of mutagen chemist, but also the gap between bomber is abismal, saving from toxicologist that thanks to the ability that let's your low level posions be useful alter on maybe could work or chirugeon because of its really god-like tier healing at later levels.
Just thoughts rambling on my head, anyone thinking the same way as I do and any solutions to this "problem"?
We thought on carrying drawbacks, adjust the perfect mutagen feat to make it more plausible, creating mid term bombs between 11 and 17 level as well from 3rd to 11, and several other things like using mutagens from distance as the healing bomb feature sort of thing!
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Something you might not realize about mutagens: just like every other alchemical elixir, the top level is always at least +1 over the equivalent magic item of that level. That means that when you hit level 17, instead of upgrading your +2 to a +3, you can pick another item instead, and use mutagens to give you a +4. That is, of course, if you're willing to deal with the penalties.
Bomber is fine, but wants standard weapon specialization progression to smooth out its curve.
Toxicologist is fine.
Chirurgeon needs a fix to their level 1, and probably something like Medic's Doctor's Visitation.
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Doesn’t really need a change per se, the class is good as a support at level (8-11, depends on view)+
But it does need a buff to its pre-7 gameplay
I’d suggest
1) Change reagents from level+int to flat 10+int at all levels.
2) Add an exploration activity to recover 3 reagents, up to the amount spent since they last used this activity, to make quick alchemy more usable before perpetuals.
3) Chirurgeon 1st, change it to “You can make a Crafting check in place of a medicine check for any of medicine’s trained and untrained skill actions and skill feats that require a medicine check. You treat your crafting proficiency rank as your medicine proficiency rank for all purposes.”
4) Mutagenist - Add martial weapon proficiency, scaling to expert at 7th.
5) Add some variety in higher level alchemical items, not just “this thing you had before but bigger number”.
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Healing bomb is a flawed feat, but we know that.
That said, Alchemist has some of the longer lasting buffs in the game, plus several exclusive features which no other class gets. So when you say "buff alchemist", you have to consider that alchemists that lean onto their strengths will also be buffed - and that might put a damper on how much of those buffs can affect the chassis and what instead should only affect the Fields (or items specifically).
Third, item bonuses from mutagens advance faster than item bonuses from permanents, meaning you have longlasting widespread bonuses (such as: a +3 to all mental skills for 1 hour, when your highest is +2 and most are +0). Alchemists aren't about the flashy instant result, but more about the widespread, constant benefit. In a system where even small boosts count, a +1 to +3 to all X checks is great (think of, say, a social encounter. Drink a mutagen and boost every single check you'll have to make. Tell me it's not good)
Add things like "ignore concealment", "confirm hints with no chance of mistake", "gain training in this skill" or "change your weapon's material"... Alchemist has toys.
Now bombs? They're ok. Situational, potentially good as debuff carriers, but certainly not something that will outshine... well, anything. If you can drop a bunch of penalties on your targets, good for you, but if you burn all your reagents on them you won't have anything left.
Haven't done much with the Alchemist myself, but stumbled across this video this morning related to people finding the class underpowered. Not sure how much help it'll be but might be a help anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRRYLlhgXJg
Linkified for convenience. It's a good video. Lots of reasonable points.
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I didn't play or GM a table with an alchemist so i'm suspected to speak.
But every time I analise it I think the class is displaced from the rest of the game.
In a game where the casters have no cost auto-progression cantrips, and combatants have many different ways to fight just wasting some actions and choosing feats. The alchemist having a key ability that's no use in attacks/defense and also has limited resource to fight make me fell like as if it don't fit in the game.
Is a class that appear more interesting when used as archetype than a main class.
It's remembers-me the 3.5 bards. A good for nothing class if you don't choose a good prestige class to compensate it.
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Item dispenser support alchemist is relatively fine, but it's also not the character some people are interested in playing, either. The 1e alchemist could be much more of a self sufficient combatant or lean heavily into support or even go all in on something weird or novel because the Alchemist had a lot of options that were just a little bit out there. The 2e alchemist only really does the middle option to any degree of satisfaction.
Alchemist dedication should be the solution to that, but the way alchemical items scale and the level caps on the dedication means that it's mostly just a way to get some free smokesticks and etc. every day, rather than fulfilling that niche either.
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Item dispenser support alchemist is relatively fine, but it's also not the character some people are interested in playing, either. The 1e alchemist could be much more of a self sufficient combatant or lean heavily into support or even go all in on something weird or novel because the Alchemist had a lot of options that were just a little bit out there. The 2e alchemist only really does the middle option to any degree of satisfaction.
Alchemist dedication should be the solution to that, but the way alchemical items scale and the level caps on the dedication means that it's mostly just a way to get some free smokesticks and etc. every day, rather than fulfilling that niche either.
Mid levels onwards (once you get alchemy level to scale with you) it is one of the best dedications though.
And that's kind of the problem.
Whenever I think of playing an Alchemist I just think "If I'm going to suck until level 7ish, why don't pick a Wizard with Alchemist dedication?" Early on I still get to do fun things and later on I will have alchemy when it actually starts getting interesting.
Linkified for convenience. It's a good video. Lots of reasonable points.Haven't done much with the Alchemist myself, but stumbled across this video this morning related to people finding the class underpowered. Not sure how much help it'll be but might be a help anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRRYLlhgXJg
I get serious "young Jason Bulmahn" vibes from him. Am I the only one?
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every time I analise it I think the class is displaced from the rest of the game.
In a game where the casters have no cost auto-progression cantrips, and combatants have many different ways to fight just wasting some actions and choosing feats. The alchemist having a key ability that's no use in attacks/defense and also has limited resource to fight make me fell like as if it don't fit in the game.
Alchemist and Warpriest share the exact same weapon proficiency and armour progression (if you pick bombs as ‘deity’s weapons’), as well as hit points, armour availability, weapon spec, and having a mental key stat.
With a couple slight switches, they also share a near-identical save progression. Perception is literally the only big difference in their chassis.
You tell me it doesn’t belong. I say it’s a carbon copy, and no warpriest uses all her spell slots on Burning Hands.
Grab a weapon and a shield. Use your buffs. Play to your strengths.
(And prep a couple of attack spells just in case)
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I don't think there's much need to revamp the Alchemist since most of what it fails to deliver on can be done perfectly well with the Investigator chassis, whether that be martial healing with Forensic Medicine or the classic Hyde Alchemist build done through Alchemical Sciences. Bombers and support builds work with the existing Alchemist chassis so... what's left that we can't make because the Alchemist is ineffective?
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Alchemical sciences is neat, it'd probably be perfect except that it's fairly limited. That you can never craft poisons, bombs or drugs at all and have such a small pool is probably a turnoff for some people and the lack of internal support doesn't help either.
Alchemist and Warpriest
Probably not a coincidence that the Warpriest has a similarly bad reputation when it comes to delivering on its concepts, too.
There's a similar discussion ongoing on reddit right now (again) because of that video ShadowFighter88 posted.
My thoughts - reposted from reddit - on the matter are, that the Alchemist needs two things:
1. A slight increase in accuracy. Full martial Proficiency migh be a bit much, but I honestly think something using Int for your first Strike each turn would help a great deal.
2. More reagents at the lower levels. Maybe something like INT-Mod number of extra Reagents that can only be used for Quick Alchemy (while retaining the option to use the standard reagents for it). This would give the Alchemist the versatility it's supposed to have without taking away the quantity of stuff he can do.
EDIT: Oh and a fix for the chirurgeon (spelling?) of course.
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Alchemical sciences is neat, it'd probably be perfect except that it's fairly limited. That you can never craft poisons, bombs or drugs at all and have such a small pool is probably a turnoff for some people and the lack of internal support doesn't help either.
Sadly, I think multiclass alchemist works well to pad out Alchemical Sciences: you get a separate pool to make alchemy items from, your formulas add together and you can pick up alchemy feats.
Alchemist and WarpriestProbably not a coincidence that the Warpriest has a similarly bad reputation when it comes to delivering on its concepts, too.
Yeah, you beat me to this comment. ;)
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2. More reagents at the lower levels. Maybe something like INT-Mod number of extra Reagents that can only be used for Quick Alchemy (while retaining the option to use the standard reagents for it). This would give the Alchemist the versatility it's supposed to have without taking away the quantity of stuff he can do.
My idea would be to give them a cantrip type at-will ability, say 'improvised alchemy' where they repurpose left over scraps and reagents from previous days to make an item with Quick Alchemy based on their Research Fields:
Bomber: Scrap Bomb [1d4 Modular damage], take 1 action to pick damage type and one to use Quick AlchemyChirurgeon: Stabilize Bomb [basically the cantrip]
Mutagenist: Gorilla Arms: +1 item bonus to athletics for 1 min.
Toxicologist: ???
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Alchemical sciences is neat, it'd probably be perfect except that it's fairly limited. That you can never craft poisons, bombs or drugs at all and have such a small pool is probably a turnoff for some people and the lack of internal support doesn't help either.
I'm not too torn up about losing bombs since the PF1 Hyde didn't get them either (Vivisectionist trades them out). Poisons are a good point, though I think a poisoner investigator is probably just a different methodology that isn't out yet.
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Alchemist and WarpriestProbably not a coincidence that the Warpriest has a similarly bad reputation when it comes to delivering on its concepts, too.
I know, it's what pushed me to play one.
I did well until level 7 (then I got eaten while unconscious). One of my players is handling it well as a lv15 Ganzi (previously an odd Aasimar). He calls his spear "best cantrip".
...by now, there's this internal meme in my group where I'll play whatever people are complaining the most about.
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every time I analise it I think the class is displaced from the rest of the game.
In a game where the casters have no cost auto-progression cantrips, and combatants have many different ways to fight just wasting some actions and choosing feats. The alchemist having a key ability that's no use in attacks/defense and also has limited resource to fight make me fell like as if it don't fit in the game.
Alchemist and Warpriest share the exact same weapon proficiency and armour progression (if you pick bombs as ‘deity’s weapons’), as well as hit points, armour availability, weapon spec, and having a mental key stat.
With a couple slight switches, they also share a near-identical save progression. Perception is literally the only big difference in their chassis.
You tell me it doesn’t belong. I say it’s a carbon copy, and no warpriest uses all her spell slots on Burning Hands.
Grab a weapon and a shield. Use your buffs. Play to your strengths.
(And prep a couple of attack spells just in case)
Yea. But I still thing the Warpriest still better because as healer/restorer it has their additional max spell level heal spells that heal far more than an elixir and can do this in area or at distance without chance to miss.
And I probably will never make a melee Warpriest, instead I prefer to focus it on long range attack with spells + cantrips and healing. Because as you say it has same low weapon proficiency and armor progression as an alchemist.
If I some day make a Warpriest for a long game as an AP probably I will do something like this if the GM allow some good recess when reach lvl 13/14:
Race:Leshy
Initial stats:
Str: 14
Con: 12
Wis: 18
Car: 16
WarpriestAdd Heavy Armor Proficiency as general feat soon as possible.
At level 13/14 I would retrain:
Warprist to Cloister
A lvl 2 class feat to Champion Dedication
Heavy Armor Proficiency feat to Shield Block feat
At lvl 14 add Diverse Armor Expert as class feat
This allow me to have a heavy defense without sacrifice my divine cast abilities.
The most part of Champion dedication anathema restriction is already followed by a good priest so it's usually change little.Has caster this cleric could achieve the legendary proficiency in their spells without sacrifice his defensive power of a warpriest and different from Alchemist this cleric don't depend from Str or Dex to hit the attacks.
2. More reagents at the lower levels. Maybe something like INT-Mod number of extra Reagents that can only be used for Quick Alchemy (while retaining the option to use the standard reagents for it). This would give the Alchemist the versatility it's supposed to have without taking away the quantity of stuff he can do.My idea would be to give them a cantrip type at-will ability, say 'improvised alchemy' where they repurpose left over scraps and reagents from previous days to make an item with Quick Alchemy based on their Research Fields:
Bomber: Scrap Bomb [1d4 Modular damage], take 1 action to pick damage type and one to use Quick Alchemy
Chirurgeon: Stabilize Bomb [basically the cantrip]
Mutagenist: Gorilla Arms: +1 item bonus to athletics for 1 min.
Toxicologist: ???
I Agree some mechanics that resembles the cantrips especially for bombs would be the ideal for alchemist too.
Alchemical sciences is neat, it'd probably be perfect except that it's fairly limited. That you can never craft poisons, bombs or drugs at all and have such a small pool is probably a turnoff for some people and the lack of internal support doesn't help either.I'm not too torn up about losing bombs since the PF1 Hyde didn't get them either (Vivisectionist trades them out). Poisons are a good point, though I think a poisoner investigator is probably just a different methodology that isn't out yet.
As alternative to they I prefer a Rogue + Poison Weapon Feat + Alchemist Dedicaton and focus in alchemic poisons. This allow the combination of strong "free" poisons + 1 action to apply + sneak attack damage. Is far more efficient than a Alchemist focus in poison attacks.
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I have said before that the 2E alchemist doesn't really do anything the 1E alchemist did. Also everything it does in 2E can be done in two skill feats with downtime or with the dedication better than the alchemist can do it.
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I get serious "young Jason Bulmahn" vibes from him. Am I the only one?Linkified for convenience. It's a good video. Lots of reasonable points.Haven't done much with the Alchemist myself, but stumbled across this video this morning related to people finding the class underpowered. Not sure how much help it'll be but might be a help anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRRYLlhgXJg
I already know you're talking about NoNats without even clicking the link because my wife and I both are convinced he's a Time Travelling Bull Man.
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If we are comparing that archetype. Vivisectionist gave: sneak attack, bonus spells from other lists, and the option to get two Rogue talents. You didn't actually "lose" bombs, you just restricted the use to make all your weapons deal that much damage.Alchemical sciences is neat, it'd probably be perfect except that it's fairly limited. That you can never craft poisons, bombs or drugs at all and have such a small pool is probably a turnoff for some people and the lack of internal support doesn't help either.I'm not too torn up about losing bombs since the PF1 Hyde didn't get them either (Vivisectionist trades them out). Poisons are a good point, though I think a poisoner investigator is probably just a different methodology that isn't out yet.
Not sure how giving up the ability to produce bombs for a bonus that largely only applies to melee weapons before Greater Invisibility comes online isn't "losing bombs". Like it was a damn good trade and why you used Vivisectionist every time for Hyde builds but you absolutely were trading out bombs and all the powerful discoveries that used them for the ability to hit hard in melee.
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One simple upgrade that every Alchemist would appreciate is a one word change. Quick Alchemy items lasting until the “end” of your next turn instead of the “start” of your next turn gives you a full extra turn to use that item at the best time in the best way.
I’m basically saying the Alchemist deserves the Enduring Alchemy feat baked into class for free. It also makes Double Brew and Alchemical Alacrity a lot of more flexible as class features, if you ever get that far.
Alchemist is really a mixed bag, IMHO. I haven't played one yet, but I've been thinking a lot about it. The main thing is that you have to accept you're going to run out of stuff.
Bomber is fine, I think. If you embrace Quicksilver Mutagen, you'll be -1 "to hit" to a non-Fighter Martial for 8 Levels (2,5,6,10,15,17,18,19) and -2 for 4 (13,14,16,20). You're even for 5 levels (1,3,4,11,12) and ahead for 3 (7,8,9). I don't know, I think that's reasonable? Perpetual Infusions work best for Bombers, especially if you embrace the Debilitating Bomb feat tree. Still, I mean, all Bombers have one of the best failure effect in the game and fun stuff should they hit (which isn't all that unlikely, really.) Bottled Lightning with its flat-footed, Tanglefoot Bags with the speed penalties. Acid Flasks with the perpetual damage (70% chance of more than one round of damage is fun.) Etc, etc, etc.
Same goes for Mutagenist, if you're going to go Feral Mutagen. Same exact "to hit", and you can keep up on Damage with handwraps and Striking Runes. Perpetual Infusions aren't all that great for Mutagenists, but it does have the odd effect of unlimited self healing at Level 7 (if you take the Revivifying Mutagen feat.)
Chirurgeon needs a lot of work. It really says something when the L1 Errata (designed to help make the most of limited reagents at lower levels) basically wipes out the Chirurgeon's L5 Field Discovery. Perpetual Infusions are pointless outside of mass casualty situations, where they do kinda shine (only Class I know of that can treat entire communities for disease and poison without blinking.)
Poisoner I haven't looked at enough to come to any decision, as the Research Field doesn't interest me.
I get serious "young Jason Bulmahn" vibes from him. Am I the only one?Linkified for convenience. It's a good video. Lots of reasonable points.Haven't done much with the Alchemist myself, but stumbled across this video this morning related to people finding the class underpowered. Not sure how much help it'll be but might be a help anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRRYLlhgXJg
The resemblance is eerie.
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I'd give them master weapon proficiency, and lower the item bonus provided by mutagens to a maximum of +3.
All alchemical consumables might also benefit from a smoothier progression ( like spellcasters).
Finally, Quick alchemy and additive feats need some adjustments to better fit this 2e and its 3 action system.
NGL that's one hell of a nerf.
I'm using this as an example from now on.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Mutagens do literally nothing if they don't outpace your normal item bonuses, only the skill check mutagens would be useful.
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I'd give them master weapon proficiency, and lower the item bonus provided by mutagens to a maximum of +3.
All alchemical consumables might also benefit from a smoothier progression ( like spellcasters).
Finally, Quick alchemy and additive feats need some adjustments to better fit this 2e and its 3 action system.
That literally defeats the point of mutagens.
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Mutagens do literally nothing if they don't outpace your normal item bonuses, only the skill check mutagens would be useful.
Skill mutagen still do quite a lot because of widespread bonuses, and all mutagens have non-numerical benefits such as ignoring critfails or granting training, but... yeah, outpacing is the main strength.
It's like taking away a warpriest's spell slots to get master in weapons.
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A smoother progression on alchemical items would be nice though. With how abruptly some of the scaling for effects are can be frustrating. There's another thread complaining about chirurgeons and one of the specific complaints is the scaling on elixirs. They go from 1d6 at level 4 to 3d6+6 at level 5, more than four times stronger with no intermediate step which is really awkward.
Not entirely on topic but MC alchemists (and the poisoner archetype) feel this doubly hard since they're also on a slower progression and never get powerful alchemy. Had someone in a game I'm in ask to retrain out of the Poisoner archetype because they kept running into enemies that only failed against their free poisons on a 1. Not an alchemist specific problem, but it puts a wrinkle in the 'just use an archetype and play something else' solution.
A smoother progression on alchemical items would be nice though. With how abruptly some of the scaling for effects are can be frustrating. There's another thread complaining about chirurgeons and one of the specific complaints is the scaling on elixirs. They go from 1d6 at level 4 to 3d6+6 at level 5, more than four times stronger with no intermediate step which is really awkward.
I'd allow a lv3 one that heals 1d6+4, honestly. Mostly because it makes Healing Bomb usable. That one is a major flaw.
I'm less concerned about the archetypes, as there's plenty of good low level items that do not lose any effectiveness. Cat's Eye, Cheetah's, Comprehension, Darkvision, Infiltrator, Leaper's are all great Elixirs for the whole game and all under level 3 (tho higher versions of most exist for extra duration). Silversheen and smokestick, or if you can find the formulas even cold iron blanche or metalmist spheres, have a similar place in tools.
It's all about finding the right items. Poisons, I'm afraid, have a DC and therefore lean towards the "expensive or maxed" side.
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I suppose one way to help out, at least the bomber, would be more ways for bombs to still do stuff on a miss. Like if the Alchemist got a bunch of class feats that rode along on miss effects (unless all those additive feats for bombs already do affect target just hit with the splash damage, in which case nevermind).
The way I do all splash damage is 1 degree less damage than the main hit. So if the main target suffers 2d8+2 in a failed save, anyone in the blast area would suffer half that damage on a failed save, and nothing on a successful one. This goes for spells with splash effects, alchemist bombs, etc.
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Note that the item bonus to attacks is to balance the fact the alchemist doesn't have master weapon proficiency.
Currently it might also be exploited giving it to other martials to get a +1, but I am quite sure this is not the intent.
Why on earth would you think this? If mutagens weren't meant to be used by other classes they wouldn't be items available for general purchase, or would only work on the Alchemist like PF1 mutagens.
Note that the item bonus to attacks is to balance the fact the alchemist doesn't have master weapon proficiency.
I always thought that these bonuses are a compensation for the lack of runes. I still don't understand why the alchemist not only perfected his "Trained in alchemical bombs" at least.
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Note that the item bonus to attacks is to balance the fact the alchemist doesn't have master weapon proficiency.I always thought that these bonuses are a compensation for the lack of runes. I still don't understand why the alchemist not only perfected his "Trained in alchemical bombs" at least.
So, IMHO, it would be unfair to give a Bomber Master proficiency with Bombs while not giving a Mutagenist similar skill. So, how would it work? Currently, Quicksilver Mutagen (ranged) and Beastial Mutagen (Unarmed) result in an Alchemist that is -1 "to hit" to a non-Fighter Martial for 8 Levels (2,5,6,10,15,17,18,19) and -2 for 4 (13,14,16,20). You're even for 5 levels (1,3,4,11,12) and ahead for 3 (7,8,9).
If you gave Master Proficiency at 15th, you would flip Levels 15, 17, 18 & 19 to the Alchemist having a +1 advantage. The NF Martial would catch up at Levels 16 and 20. The Alchemist would end up behind for six levels, even for seven, and *ahead* for seven, including four of the last six.
I can see players of Martials being annoyed with that bit of mathematics, although Martials will have advantages Alchemists don't have (double strikes and the like.)
I suppose one way to help out, at least the bomber, would be more ways for bombs to still do stuff on a miss. Like if the Alchemist got a bunch of class feats that rode along on miss effects (unless all those additive feats for bombs already do affect target just hit with the splash damage, in which case nevermind).The way I do all splash damage is 1 degree less damage than the main hit. So if the main target suffers 2d8+2 in a failed save, anyone in the blast area would suffer half that damage on a failed save, and nothing on a successful one. This goes for spells with splash effects, alchemist bombs, etc.
Why would you nerf bombs by giving splash damage a save?
Edit: I ask because that limits the utility of any suggestion you make, as at that point your numbers are aimed at a completely different mechanic. I'm not surprised you increased splash damage so much; I haven't done the math, but I assume you'd almost have to just to keep up with the CRB alchemical bombs after you nerfed bombs that hard.
Note that the item bonus to attacks is to balance the fact the alchemist doesn't have master weapon proficiency.I always thought that these bonuses are a compensation for the lack of runes. I still don't understand why the alchemist not only perfected his "Trained in alchemical bombs" at least.
A fully feated out bomber can do a lot of damage on a miss via splash, giving them the ability to do damage on, say, 19 of 20 rolls instead of 9 of 20. Cyuoni and I did some table math on a different thread, but that splash damage adds up.
It takes basically all your feats, which is a problem, but it is an option.
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I don't see a way to improve alchemist by improving the things they make. That would only make them even more of a dispenser type roll (which most posters here tend to hate) since other classes with better proficiencies could use them better. Making alchemists benefit more than other classes from mutagens makes more sense to me, getting an extra +1 to any item bonuses. With bombers there's already a few math fixer feats that make it decently strong because of splash, persistent damage, and debuffs. Mutagens don't really get that much except for longer durations and less drawbacks (and then there's feral mutagen which too much of a drawback for what you get in return if you ask me).
Another thing that could be cool is introducing some mutagens that can only affect the alchemist. Like a mutagen that gives damage dice to unarmed attacks, but one over the norm (so 2 at 1-3, 3 at 4-11, 4 at 12-18, 5 at 19-20). There's really no class feature for alchemist that gives them a damage boost in melee, no sneak attack, no rage, no flurry of blows. I think they need one.
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Note that the item bonus to attacks is to balance the fact the alchemist doesn't have master weapon proficiency.I always thought that these bonuses are a compensation for the lack of runes. I still don't understand why the alchemist not only perfected his "Trained in alchemical bombs" at least.
Splash damage is actually incredibly strong. On the first attack, you're 95% likely to get at least splash damage, which goes down to a mere 75% on the second attack. Now consider that with the right feats, level 11 splash damage goes up to 8 splash. With martial proficiency, every throw from a base-level alchemist is almost akin to that of a maxed out damage bow champion.
The real problem, in my view, is that default alchemist bomb damage doesn't improve from 3 to 11. Unlike pure martials, which get a boost at 7 from weapon specialization, alchemists just keep chugging along on level 3 bombs until level 11, which really kinda sucks.
Yeah, damage output is somewhat problematic. With the exception of Weapon Specialization at 13th, all the Alchemist damage boosts are Feats. At Level 8 you can take Sticky Bomb, which adds persistent damage to every bomb hit. At 10th you can take Expanded Splash, which will add 1 or 2 to your Splash Damage (depending on whether the Bomb in question is a L1 from Perpetual Infusions or a L3 from Advanced or Quick.) Weapon Specialization a few Levels earlier would be a nice thing. Maybe 9th or 10th instead or 13th.
I've been thinking that from an early play perspective, Mutagenist is a decent way to go. With the Errata, you can make 3 doses of your favourite combat mutagen with 1 batch of reagents. With Mutagenic Flashback, that gives you four uses... probably enough for most days. Even at 1st level, that leaves four batches for other things.
Still though, even with the problem of throwing away your resources, I'll probably end up playing a Bomber at some point. Just not sure yet whether I'll go all-in on Debilitating Bomb or not.
do note that Sticky is not by a long shot "every bomb thrown" it's just for the Quick alchemy ones.
Yeah, I definitely misspoke there. In general, it'll add perpetual damage to your perpetual infusion bombs. Which is a decent upgrade, especially as for levels 8 & 9 you'll be hitting slightly more than most folks. (And let's face it, the Perpetual Infusion bombs need all the help they can get. :-P )
i do think it's random taht the Perpetual is at level 7.
If they were suppossed to be 1 tier lower (as seen by the level 11 and 17 increases) then by all means it should have been a level 3 feature.
Yeah, I do kinda wonder at that. Maybe they wanted to space out the improvement a bit? Or maybe they felt that giving the Mutagenist unlimited self-healing at L3 was a bit much? :-D
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Having played an alchemist for a while now, my main gripe is Alchemical Alacrity being completely useless unless you have enduring alchemy, which in of itself is extremely niche without Alacrity, and even THEN, it doesn't save actions since you still have to draw the third item unless it's a bomb you pull out with Quick Bomb, or have an Independent/Valet familiar, provided your table allows it to work (by RAW, it seems like it doesn't). It's literally a dead class feature without investing 2 feats.
I get that paizo doesn't want alchemists to get master, but why not make Alacrity actually useful, like making quick alchemy a free action or something? That would still match the flavor of making your quick alchemy even faster, and would definitely feel really awesome. Some of my most shining moments as an alchemist have been using quick alchemy to make an Elixir of (solve the problem) in tricky exploration scenes, or whipping up mistform elixirs, defensive mutagens, or a smokestick to save party members.