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When the primary focus of the class (Familiars and Patrons) sucks and the other focus that people wanted it to really be about (Hexes) went down the toilet bowl, it's no surprise people are jumping the gun and saying that Witches suck. It's not that you can't build a good Witch, or that a Witch isn't viable. It sucks because what it focuses on sucks and what made it good in the previous edition sucks now.Honestly, this is really the whole thread.
Every person I see trash the witch was the same set of people that had a problem with the Playtest design of the Class.
I'm sorry you don't like Familiars or Patrons or Lessons, but it doesn't make it "weak", it just makes it not something you personally prefer.
As an example, I don't like the current design of the Gunslinger as it is in the Playtest at all. I find it bland, doesn't evoke any real "gunslinger vibes", doesn't have a true Grit system, and is basically Fighter with less options.
Does that make the Class weak? Not really. It's actually fine, it has some issues as far as being Streak-y when it comes to crits and some logistics issues at the moment, but it is not a "weak" Class.
_______________________________________I'm all for adding more Hexibility, that sounds great, but I also recognize the Class isn't weak, Patrons and Familiars are incorporated elegantly into the Class and do provide meaningful returns on power, and Hex Cantrips/Focus Spells are solid (despite the sentiment some express here, compare them to other spells and it's pretty easy to see they are in fact just as good).
The more options that come, the less issues people are going to have with the whole "But I want Primal and I don't want Wildling Word but I also don't want Winter Witch", which is about as fair as saying "I want to be a Braggart but I don't want to use Demoralize!"
Witch was god in PF1, I really don't think there was ever going to be a world where PF2 Witch resembled anything that powerful.
It didn't need the power, though, it completely missed what made the Witch the Witch, which was Hexes, and a more encompassing Patron. The fact you can make one or two builds to be pretty strong doesn't make the class fine or properly balanced, it just makes those choices balanced, with the other choices being as they said, garbage. Barbarians suffer from this very problem, where Giant and Animal Barbarians are strong, but Dragon and Spirit Barbarians are sub-par, and Superstition is just plain unviable in most parties.
The hexes are hit or miss, or arbitrarily locked behind tradition barriers. Why should I have to be an Occult Witch to get Evil Eye? Why are hexes like Wilding Word so situational and trashy compared to Clinging Ice, when they are both Primal Traditions? Why am I only allowed one Hex Cantrip, can't I just exchange my Spell cantrips for more Hex Cantrips?
Familiars had use in PF1 for both in-combat and out-of-combat. In PF2, they are little chew toys for the big bad to munch on. And having played a Familiar Wizard for 13 levels, I had never had a reason or ability that the Familiar could do that my feat/spell choices or party members couldn't accomplish both better and more reliably. In fact, it was a non-existent party member that never came into play, even with master powers and such. It was even a suboptimal classic choice, a Bat!
The fact I could play a Wizard for 13 levels while being effectively denied a major class feature like a Thesis is more of a measure of how bad Familiars are than it is a measure of being able to still be a contributing party member despite the handicap.
And Hexes are just rebranded Wizard Schools, which are maybe a step up at best from what School Powers give you. Sure, they're better, but they are by no means a fair comparison to Domains or Bloodline powers, or even Ki abilities.
The Witch to me is a class with too much of a difference between their best and worst builds. On one hand, you have cantrip like Stoke the Heart, Evil Eye, and Nudge Fate which can be used every single encounter, and on the other hand you have ones like Shroud of Night, Wilding Word, and Discern Secrets which many witches will struggle to ever use effectively. From experience with a few different witches, hex selection will be the biggest factor on if a Witch enjoys their character or not.
Yes but thats the case with every class. There are builds and variants where the features are just not going to be used much. A bit depends on your local game. But IMO some builds are just inferior as their features are just not that important.
Probably the best balanced class is the Druid. Where all 4 variants work Ok.
Sidetrack on Clinging Ice - do other people find that focus spell strange? It's one I see brought up fairly often in defense of Witch, and 1-action damage + slowdown definitely seems welcome on a cantrip. The fact that you only get the damage on cast and not sustain seems like a pretty severe drawback to me, combined with the 1min immunity.
In practice I could see it play out differently than I expect it to, but it seems very hard to get long-term use out of it in a lot of encounters. If a solo monster makes the initial save the cantrip is basically dead for the rest of combat - is this a big issue for people using it or does it end up being fine in practice?
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It didn't need the power, though, it completely missed what made the Witch the Witch, which was Hexes, and a more encompassing Patron.
To you it missed.
The fact you can make one or two builds to be pretty strong doesn't make the class fine or properly balanced
It's far more than "one or two", but then I guess we are speaking in hyperboles?
Barbarians suffer from this very problem, where Giant and Animal Barbarians are strong, but Dragon and Spirit Barbarians are sub-par, and Superstition is just plain unviable in most parties.
With the exception of your take on Superstition, which I think heavily plays into how your GM and Party are, I don't agree on your other takes of Barbarian.
I had it argued to me that Animal Barbarians are constricted completely due to not allowing Ranged, but hey we're still speaking in hyperboles, so I guess it doesn't matter.
The hexes are hit or miss, or arbitrarily locked behind tradition barriers. Why should I have to be an Occult Witch to get Evil Eye? Why are hexes like Wilding Word so situational and trashy compared to Clinging Ice, when they are both Primal Traditions? Why am I only allowed one Hex Cantrip, can't I just exchange my Spell cantrips for more Hex Cantrips?
I mean the obvious answer is two Hex cantrips massively increases the power of the witch due to their ability to Sustain seperately.
Putting Evil Eye and Clinging Ice on the same target with 0 resource cost would be nuts. At best, we could potentially hope for a relatively mid-level Class Feat that expands it to two Hex Cantrips, but it's pretty clear where the power lies.
Familiars had use in PF1 for both in-combat and out-of-combat. In PF2, they are little chew toys for the big bad to munch on.
Witch Familiars literally can't die and your assertion that they are reduced to chew toys is once again, hyperbole.
And having played a Familiar Wizard for 13 levels, I had never had a reason or ability that the Familiar could do that my feat/spell choices or party members couldn't accomplish both better and more reliably. In fact, it was a non-existent party member that never came into play, even with master powers and such. It was even a suboptimal classic choice, a Bat!
So playing a Familiar Wizard and never using your Familiar (despite having the option to select things like Familiar Refocus, Cantrip Expansion, etc.) means Familiar is bad? Is that how it works?
The fact I could play a Wizard for 13 levels while being effectively denied a major class feature like a Thesis is more of a measure of how bad Familiars are than it is a measure of being able to still be a contributing party member despite the handicap.
You can deny any Class their Class Feature if you don't use it. Rage costs an action. No one makes you attacked the Flat-footed as a Rogue.
What do you expect the game to do? Force you to use the choices you chose?
And Hexes are just rebranded Wizard Schools, which are maybe a step up at best from what School Powers give you.
Except for being sustainable, some being Cantrips, and not being at all like Wizard School powers. Except for that.
Sure, they're better, but they are by no means a fair comparison to Domains or Bloodline powers, or even Ki abilities.
Ah Yes, Ki Strike, the God tier Ki ability.
Or Soothing Words, the one round +1 Status bonus to Will saves, you know, a literal Focus point costing ability that for 9 levels of the game is practically weaker than Nudge Fate.
Or Share Burden, the "within 30ft reaction that works only against a harmful emotion effect saving throw that also makes you take the effects of the spell".
If you're going to act like the Witch has such wide variation on spells, then I task you with actually going and reading some of the Domain Spells, where "situational" almost doesn't cover the level of circumstances required to make it possible.
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Does anyone here actually want to highlight what the Witch does differently from other Casters positively and makes it distinct or do you all just want to sit here and harp on how terrible the Witch is?
Because the thread was a question of what the Witch does differently, not a prompt "Explain why the witch sucks".
Either way, forgive me for intruding on the hate-parade. I'm not just going to defend an onslaught of complaints littered with hyperboles.
To each their own.
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It didn't need the power, though, it completely missed what made the Witch the Witch, which was Hexes, and a more encompassing Patron.To you it missed.
The fact you can make one or two builds to be pretty strong doesn't make the class fine or properly balancedIt's far more than "one or two", but then I guess we are speaking in hyperboles?
Barbarians suffer from this very problem, where Giant and Animal Barbarians are strong, but Dragon and Spirit Barbarians are sub-par, and Superstition is just plain unviable in most parties.With the exception of your take on Superstition, which I think heavily plays into how your GM and Party are, I don't agree on your other takes of Barbarian.
I had it argued to me that Animal Barbarians are constricted completely due to not allowing Ranged, but hey we're still speaking in hyperboles, so I guess it doesn't matter.
The hexes are hit or miss, or arbitrarily locked behind tradition barriers. Why should I have to be an Occult Witch to get Evil Eye? Why are hexes like Wilding Word so situational and trashy compared to Clinging Ice, when they are both Primal Traditions? Why am I only allowed one Hex Cantrip, can't I just exchange my Spell cantrips for more Hex Cantrips?I mean the obvious answer is two Hex cantrips massively increases the power of the witch due to their ability to Sustain seperately.
Putting Evil Eye and Clinging Ice on the same target with 0 resource cost would be nuts. At best, we could potentially hope for a relatively mid-level Class Feat that expands it to two Hex Cantrips, but it's pretty clear where the power lies.
Familiars had use in PF1 for both in-combat and out-of-combat. In PF2, they are little chew toys for the big bad to munch on.Witch Familiars literally can't die and your assertion that they are reduced to chew toys is once again, hyperbole.
And having played a Familiar...
It did, but it's not all about me. To be fair, I did run a homebrew Evil Eye that gave a -1 Status Penalty to an attribute (attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, AC) based on a Mental trait Will Save as an action, 1 round on a success, with a duration equal to Intelligence modifier on a failure, and the penalty increasing to -2 on a critical failure, not able to target the same attribute for 1 minute. It was true to the original Evil Eye while still fitting into the new paradigm, and the players loved it, even when it was used against them.
It depends on what constitutes a different build. Is a different ancestry choice, while technically a different build, an actually different build if it otherwise functions identically to the other? To me, it wouldn't. To others, it would. Set some rules here and we can maybe get an actual answer.
While that's true due to a lack of class and feat support, Barbarian in general doesn't have much viable avenues in the way of Ranged combat that doesn't require dedication feats of some sort. Same goes for Champions and their schtick with ranged combat.
Witch is already relatively underwhelming, boosting their power of the players' preferred schtick isn't going to break the game.
Actions are just as much of a resource cost as any focus point or spell slot. Plus, there is already a 1 hex limit per turn clause in effect, meaning combining both within the span of a round, much less two rounds, isn't nearly as effective or likely as it seems.
To be fair, it also implies that the BBEG is going to waste time on what is effectively a chew toy to them when there are other more credible threats around, this was more of a jab at how bad they are, not that they are able to die. Nice Strawman. Schrodinger's Familiar isn't a thing, trying to make it a thing to support your claim is grasping at straws considering how low on the totem pole they are already.
It is, because I had no apparent use for it. More focus spells were useless when my focus spells are trash, more low level spell slots takes too long to kick in, and when they do they are for barely useful utility spells, and heaven forbid the familiar abilities are relatively useful for the party, said no one ever. If Familiars are so dang good, why isn't everyone just clamoring for them when it's so easy to get them and power them up? Just takes a couple feats. And the easy answer is because "there are a trillion other better things for me to take besides a chew toy for the BBEG, even if it is immortal." Are they more useful for a Witch or other class? Probably. But a Wizard with a Familiar is both iconic and also around well before a Witch class was, and it was a Core choice, which was what I had. I also made the choice to see how Familiars would be post-playtest, and they just suck.
I expect the game to have incentive for me to use the choice I chose. Rage boosts damage. So does Sneak Attack. Setting up circumstances or capitalizing on existing circumstances for the schtick I chose is something that I should want to do with my choice. I had no incentive or desire to use a Familiar, or their powers/abilities, over any of the other abilities and feats I had chosen or access to. Therefore, it is bad game design by comparison.
Depends on the Hex or Hex Cantrip. Some are good. Some are middling. Some are situational or just plain suck. Not unlike School Powers. Just because some can be cast infinitely, sustained, or have differing effects, does not make them superior. Plus, I did say they were a step up anyway. But that's all it is, is a step.
There are plenty of useful Domain Spells and Ki Abilities and Bloodline Powers, though that the bad ones don't matter much (nor do they define your build for you). The ratio of good/bad powers from the former is superior to the Witch's ratio, which is what is really important here. They can have an equal amount of options, if one class has more bad options than another class, then it is indeed still bad class design by comparison.
The thread title is if they are missing the point of the class. Chances are, there will be discussions on what makes a Witch tick (or not tick, used as a control to base what the class should be "ticking" off of), or what should make a Witch tick. If you think clashing opinions on what defines the class is a hatred train, then sure, we're all haters crashing the thread and you should just bow out now.
Witches are waiting for options to get more and better hex cantrips.XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD XD
Sounds very familiar to my issues with Wizards.
"Wait until Lost Omens Gods and Magic comes out and Wizards get more options."
"Wait until Gamemastery Guide comes out and Wizards get more options."
"Wait until few more Lost Omens books come out and Wizards get more options."
"Wait until Advanced Player's Guide comes out and Wizards get more options."
"Wait until Secrets of Magic comes out and Wizards get more options."
:D :D :D
to be fair I think staff nexus was a really nice get for wizards from the APG.
1) Pick a list vs a single list, and how much power budget does pick a list take.
I honestly don't think pick-a-list took up a large portion of the class's budget. What I do think happened is that the balance was set as if they'd always pick Arcane. There is a definite pattern so far with the three classes that have access to the arcane list. We won't be able to confirm if that's a thing this year, as Summoners and Magi both also have access to the Arcane tradition, though I will note that the playtest Magus was missing a class feature compared to the Summoner, which is getting patched before release.
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Putting Evil Eye and Clinging Ice on the same target with 0 resource cost would be nuts.
Am I missing something? This doesn't seem at all powerful. Do you think that Clinging Ice applies the damage on each sustain or something? Because nothing about how the spell is written implies that, but that's the only way I could see you thinking this combo was "nuts".
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I had a recent online conversation which made me warm up a little towards Clinging Ice. Previously I wrote it off because while it's very action-efficient, I thought it would run out of steam too quickly unless you face off against several foes (not dealing damage on sustain, coupled with temporary immunity, means you can only damage one particular creature once per combat.)
However, it was pointed out that the sustained -5/-10 movement speed can actually be really impactful in solo encounter, specifically against enemies with a 25ft speed, due to the fact that these enemies then become super easy to kite. Having that utility in solo fights (against 4+ enemies it's just plain old efficient damage), definitely got me past my poor first impression of the spell a little.
Oh yeah, kiting slow enemies is a great tactic that a lot of groups overlook in favor of flanks.
As for situational cantrips, they are fine for spell lists with more generally useful cantrip options like Primal and Arcane.
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The witch is a class that is average. Its not the best, its not the worst, its there and its does its thing somewhat.
That's a pretty low bar... *looks at alchemist*
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to be fair I think staff nexus was a really nice get for wizards from the APG.
There's a few other stuff that APG brought positive to (some) Wizards, but overall, it's still a class that has no identity and struggles to maintain relevance.
Even the Staff Nexus really isn't noteable until later levels.
What I do think happened is that the balance was set as if they'd always pick Arcane.
I'm not sure if I can agree with this. If anything I'd say Arcane is one of the less compelling Witch options in general and discern secrets is particularly uninspiring.
Though I also think people in general overstate the relative value of Arcane in these threads a lot.
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What I do think happened is that the balance was set as if they'd always pick Arcane.I'm not sure if I can agree with this. If anything I'd say Arcane is one of the less compelling Witch options in general and discern secrets is particularly uninspiring.
Though I also think people in general overstate the relative value of Arcane in these threads a lot.
I'm actually not arguing either way if the Arcane list is great for the witch. What I'm saying is that it was balanced as if it would select the Arcane list. Which effectively suggests that access to the Arcane list is valuable, I'll concede, but whether or not it is true, it is pretty clear that the designers weigh access to the Arcane list heavily. The 3 caster classes that have access to the Arcane list have extremely similar class design, almost point to point getting the same proficiencies and features at the same levels. The pattern between those three is nearly uniform, while the other casters have at least some variation.
They are all noticeably weaker than the other casters if you are counting proficiencies, skills, HP, and other similar aspects (including when they receive their class features). Whether or not they are actually weaker taken as a whole is not something I'm getting into, but the chassis itself clearly is. The only proficiency differences they have are to make the wizard even weaker by giving them worse skill and weapon proficiencies.
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I have been looking at the witch tables, and all I see is a wizard with fewer spells. In 1e, hexes were powerful at-will abilities, but now they are use focus points. What am I missing?
The new witch is way worse than the PF1 witch by a country mile.
But the occult witch isn't bad compared to other PF2 non-core classes. I don't think the witch is as good as a bard, cleric, or sorcerer, but maybe on par with a wizard.
Curse witch is pretty good. Evil Eye cantrip can be pretty useful, though it's basically a longer lasting intimidate requiring a sustain action each round if it lands.
Fervor isn't a bad healer. You're not a cleric, but stoke the heart can be a nice damage booster that works for anyone, caster or martial.
My buddy prefers the witch because it is more interesting to play than a wizard or cleric because he likes variety. The witch has a bit of variety to its play-style and can fill a few roles.
Fervor and Curse are the only two witch types that look interesting from a player who wants effective and useful abilities in the most situations. But the new witch has lousy feats, as bad as the wizard if not worse. We couldn't believe how terrible their feats are. The player always uses his feats to take multiclass feats because the witch feats are so terrible in combat. Goodness they are terrible for combat. They seem written more for NPCs than PCs for flavor abilities over effective abilities.
Just another example of how non-core RB book classes are generally inferior to core RB classes. I expect the Magus and Summoner to continue the PF2 tradition of versatility leading to lower combat effectiveness which amounts to an overall inferior class when it comes to combat effectiveness.
it is pretty clear that the designers weigh access to the Arcane list heavily.
Is it though? Two of the three classes you mention also receive more spell slots than other casters, which seems to be where the bulk of their power budget is attributed. Worth noting the Witch was designed that way originally too and didn't receive any substantive changes to its core chassis after the playtest.
The options within the class' don't seem to bear that out either. The Dragon Eidolon wasn't noticeably weaker than the beast. Some of the worst focus spells the Sorcerer can get are attached to the divine list. Discern Secrets is underwhelming conceptually, but fine if you build your character correctly and probably more useful than Wilding Word in a lot of campaigns.
Feels like you're making a lot of assumptions here.
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I'm not sure that resuscitating this thread is the best plan. May be better to start a new one on the Advice subforum.
I have never actually played a PF1 Witch, so I can't do a direct comparison. But my suspicion is that, like most spellcasters, the PF2 Witch is going to be less powerful than its PF1 counterpart. So if you are wanting a character that feels as powerful as it was previously, you are probably going to ultimately be disappointed.
Embrace the new balance and adjust your expectations accordingly.
Also, some of what you are describing (such as the minor precognition) is flavor and role-playing. If it doesn't mechanically change anything, just have it be something that the character does.
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The Witch to me is a class with too much of a difference between their best and worst builds. On one hand, you have cantrip like Stoke the Heart, Evil Eye, and Nudge Fate which can be used every single encounter, and on the other hand you have ones like Shroud of Night, Wilding Word, and Discern Secrets which many witches will struggle to ever use effectively. From experience with a few different witches, hex selection will be the biggest factor on if a Witch enjoys their character or not.
There are very few classes that are like the Druid where all four of the orders work reasonably well. Lets see if they can keep that up with Secrets of Magic
Only half of the Sorcerers Bloodline magic spells are good, 3 of the Barbarians Instinct are much better than the others (Draconic, Animal, Giant) (Fury is terrible, and Superstition is almost unplayable). Almost nothing in Wizard Schools is worth taking at all - many are so bad even if you had them you wouldn't waste the action on using them. Three of the Oracle Mysteries are massive negatives (Ancestors/Bones/Lore).
Be thankful that you like a few witch builds. I haven't found one I like yet. The flavour is good, I'm just not seeing the mechanics that make me want to try it.
I guess I'm trying to say if I like half the options in a class then I'm happy, my expectation is met.
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The Witch to me is a class with too much of a difference between their best and worst builds. On one hand, you have cantrip like Stoke the Heart, Evil Eye, and Nudge Fate which can be used every single encounter, and on the other hand you have ones like Shroud of Night, Wilding Word, and Discern Secrets which many witches will struggle to ever use effectively. From experience with a few different witches, hex selection will be the biggest factor on if a Witch enjoys their character or not.There are very few classes that are like the Druid where all four of the orders work reasonably well. Lets see if they can keep that up with Secrets of Magic
Only half of the Sorcerers Bloodline magic spells are good, 3 of the Barbarians Instinct are much better than the others (Draconic, Animal, Giant) (Fury is terrible, and Superstition is almost unplayable). Almost nothing in Wizard Schools is worth taking at all - many are so bad even if you had them you wouldn't waste the action on using them. Three of the Oracle Mysteries are massive negatives (Ancestors/Bones/Lore).
Be thankful that you like a few witch builds. I haven't found one I like yet. The flavour is good, I'm just not seeing the mechanics that make me want to try it.
I guess I'm trying to say if I like half the options in a class then I'm happy, my expectation is met.
Spirit instinct is so bad you forgot it existed
Spirit instinct and fury instinct are absolutely great if you're comparing the difference between them and other instincts to the difference between a witch and a wizard.
I think you are being harsh on bones though, it's great as an option for evil Oracle's or Oracle's in an undead party or even when facing undead. I consider it a lot more playable than flames which makes being a healer challenging with concealment
Spirit is balanced around its reliability; it does less damage than dragon because the dragon barb will sometimes get no rage damage at all. I don't think there's anything that resists both positive and negative damage.
Not to argue that it's an especially good instinct or anything but it definitely isn't as bad as Fury or Superstition.
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Spirit instinct is so bad you forgot it existed
Yeah it falls into a grey area for me. If I really wanted that power, I'd probably prefer to be a Duskwalker. Yes it is useful, I just don't see it as that strong. I can't imagine ever wanting it over Dragon.
Spirit is a bit campaign specific. In a normal campaign it will underperform compared to the big 3 instincts.
In an Undead heavy campaign it will be amazing though, with easy weakness triggering and resistance to all damages from undead.
Spirit instinct is so bad you forgot it existed
Their level 12 feat is nuts, though.
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How easily we slip into the langauge of "bad", "useless", "garbage" when in PF1 we had archetypes that literally did nothing.
At worst, things in PF2 are niche or campaign dependent. Even witches can be shined up and function well in the right circumstances.
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Witch is going to feel bad if you play them as a wizard, vecause, well, of course the wizard is a better wizard.
The advantage of the witch is that most of their hexes are 1 actions, or are sustained effects, which may as well be the same thing in many cases. They have "filler" actions that the wizard does not.
If you're in a campaign that doesn't have a lot of rests, this can be a big deal early on, to have these free use and renewable use abilities. I've also found players that are gunshy about using important resources will end up being better witches than wizards, because a wizard using mostly cantrips and focus spells is a hell of a lot less impactful than a witch doing the same (though neither of them are peticularly good in an optimization standpoint)
Imo though, I still favor the wizard, but that's more a personal taste thing. Not many witch abilities excite me as much as extra spell slots, and wizard, especially spell blending wizard, can't be beat for that
The only thing I liked in Witch is using it as a "summoner" because of Cackle Focus Spell allows to control 2 summoned creatures at same time, allowing the player to be a good pokemon master since the beginning.
Witch is going to feel bad if you play them as a wizard, vecause, well, of course the wizard is a better wizard.
You give a interesting point of view here.
In the playtest was considered that the Witch could be a Occult only prepared caster. Maybe if that's happened as a dedicated occult spellcaster it could be more interesting and usefull having more occult focused abilities.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the problem with the witch is psychological- you go into it looking like the hex cantrip you get is going to be your bread and butter, but for most of them there are situations where your hex cantrip isn't going to be useful.
If you just let a witch get a second one somehow, so you can cover more bases, the class would feel a lot better.
Like the essential problem with a prepared caster with low slots is that "what do I do if nothing in my toolkit is useful here"?
Like the essential problem with a prepared caster with low slots is that "what do I do if nothing in my toolkit is useful here"?
Usually this make the player to choose the most all-rounder spells that he could have (that's the why I think in a summoner witch, it's a one kind of spell only spell caster).
This situation occurs for all prepared spellcasters, maybe except for Spell Substitution wizards.
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many options require a lot of effort to make functional and that takes away from the fun of using the option.
One of the reasons why PF2 is a better game than other RPGs is the unbelievable number of options. With that, inherently, is the problem of multidimensional optimization.
It's the reason poker is more durable than Go Fish and Settlers of Catan is more durable than Life - the struggle in navigating the uncertainty makes for good replay value.
So you don't build a witch perfectly - there's nothing wrong with that in PF2. In PF1, the gaps between optimized and unoptimized were huge; the gaps have closed in PF2. Play a divine witch if you want, it'll be mechanically worse than a cleric, but it will be fine.
How a player plays a character matters a lot. If you're going to play a witch with the idea that you're going to stand back and just blast for damage, there will be way fewer options than if you consider borderline heresy like grabbing a whip and flanking (seriously ... consider it). On the plus side, fewer options means easier optimization, but the local maximum you find through a limited optimization is going to be much worse than the global maximum from complex, multidimensional optimization.
I think that wegrate want to say that the most options require a lot of effort to make functional compared to other spellcasting classes.
Something like "too much effort, planning and combinations" to do just a some of things compared what we could do with other classes combinations.
That's is main sense that Witch pass to me. A too much harder class to build something comparable to other classes with less good options.
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My experience: witch class works just fine but playing one feels to me like something was off and it is hard to say but when i played as a wizard and as a oracle in others games theses two classes seemed more complete to me. Maybe is just a feeling but thats what i was thinking that time.
I played as a witch till level 5, so i had a solid familiar and two or three hexes (i don't remember exactly) and even with all that stuffs i was hoping to change to another class hahaha
(I still think in playing a witch with a gun when guns and gears shows up)
That's the point of most criticism of witch. Different from a barbarian superstition the some people joke above. It's not like a bad class. It's just too suboptimal in most of the cenários and builds.
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So you don't build a witch perfectly - there's nothing wrong with that in PF2. In PF1, the gaps between optimized and unoptimized were huge; the gaps have closed in PF2. Play a divine witch if you want, it'll be mechanically worse than a cleric, but it will be fine.
It will be mechanically different than a Cleric. Better or worse depends on the rest of the party.
I think that is the problem that I see with people in analyzing the Witch. Witch is a very subtle class, not a big flashy powerful one. It takes a bit of coordination with the other characters in the party. And it takes some coordination with the GM on the theme for the game too.
Someone else was ragging on Flame Oracle earlier. How about a Fervor Witch with a Flame Oracle. Stoke the Heart on the Oracle (the bonus damage should apply to spell damage rolls too). Elemental Betrayal on an enemy the next round. That is going to be a very non-trivial amount of damage caused by a couple of focus spells that look weak when doing a whiteroom DPR calculation. Especially if the Oracle adds in Incendiary Aura and lights the Elemental Betrayal target on fire. Sure fire immunity exists, but every build can be countered. This particular build can be had as early as level 2. Not many things are immune to fire at level 2.