Kendaan's page

Talking about co-operative play about poison I find surprising that the advance domain spell from Indulgence, "Take it's Course" hasn't been mentioned.

How does it play now with the remaster toxicologist and poisons?

Drained is a good condition but warpriest has a lot of good feats at low level.

How often do you crit and how long do your target lives after a crit will change how valuable it is.

I feel though it is more interesting on an axe harm against lots of mooks or as a nice rider when unleashing 3 x 1a harms on a boss.

From some post on reddit, it seems the 4 slots might be a mistake.

The text in the class still mention 2/3 slots, while the table shows 3/4.

I'm enclined to believe that as it does not make sense in relation to the other classes to increase the oracle spell slots (and with their new curse mechanic, they already have a lot of sustain capacity).

Shield of the spirits really make Blood Ward & Protective Ward sad in comparison, the main advantage they have against it is the ability to be sustained.

We will have to wait for core 2 to know for real,especially how it plays with other abilities (aura size, reactions etc..) but Shields of the spirits looks really strong, almost too much.

1a, 1 focus point, and you get to raise tour shield, get +1status to AC to all allies in your aura until the start of your next turn, AND alao give them a damage shield that triggers even on a miss? Damn!

It's looking good but maybe a bit more focused on the Warpriest than the Cleric as a whole.

For exemple the attributes spread in 6.1 for the Cloistered Cleric are still from legacy, and the of the 3 important feats Cleric feats, 2 are really for warpriest and the third one is more for melee harm builds.

I just need to note that Heal is good but only really worth to use offensively if you need to heal your allies too.

If the Cleric took the feats Panic the Dead & Cremate Undead, Heal becomes a really good offensive option against undead (especially at lvl 14 if fast channel has been taken too).

While probably still better to use when some allies took some damage, early application of frightened 1 and persistent fire damage might be worth it?

The advanced domain spell of the Duty Domain (dutiful challenge) kinda work like aggro.

It is a bit underwhelming for a rank 4 spell, starting as a -1, with heightening every 3 rank.

The fact that it is status magus will also conflict with most debuff as well.

(I do not know if it has been changed in the remaster though).

The Earth Kineticist aura is also quite good if your other team members are ranged, but doesn't synergies well with champion's reactions.

Also, I think it's important to point out that one can be a priest or warrior of à non deity religion / philosophy, without being à cleric/Champion.

I mean Druid and some flavor of Rangers are exactly that, for Nature.

And in a home games, it is quite easy to get away with the deity part.

Im the second front liner in the party, I wield a two handed weapon, and the main front liner is a Champion.

Champions reaction work on a catch 22 principle were attacking either them or their Allies result in a loss of some sort.

If the second target makes it even less a good idea to attack them, like with vibrant Thorn, the enemies might wither focus more the champion (negating the benefit of their reaction), or even skip both the champion and the warpriest to go focus other characters.

I don't think it is a great focus spell in that specific composition.

(Of course assuming intelligent enemies aware of the abilities of the party)

I'm not so sure for 2, as both the cast and the strike are part of a 2 action event.

While the text specify you first cast a 1 action heal/harm then do a strike, they are not two separate actions.

Can free actions happen in between 2 parts of a two action feat?

For the cloistered cleric, I'd love:

-reviewed/rebalanced domain focus spells. A lot of them are really poor. (That one could also be of use to Warpriest, champions, oracle and a few archetypes).

-reviewed feats related to domains use. I think there is only 2, they came a bit late and are underwhelming.

-allowing the healing fonts metamagic to be used with the aoe version of heal/harm when you can use it as 2 actions (except probably for Cast Down).
It really feel sad to invest a lot of feats in the font and not be able to do an area heal that gives +1 status to attack at lvl 14 with 2+ feats investment.

-have the metamagic feats for the harming font more useful/powerful. Instead of having them do the equivalent of heal, but on undead, why not have debuff effects or something like it?

Taking Druid dedication and the wild order Spell at level 4 will give you wild morph without wild shape.

Alternatively, you can do the same as a Druid of another order taking order explorer.

If you're going the dedication way, wil morph will advance as any focus Spell, but you'd be stuck without wild shape foe the feats that add options to the Spell.

That's not what a pantheon is. Gods exist outside the will of any mortal, and a pantheon is a relationship between those gods, well outside a mortal's opinion. A "personal pantheon" makes no sense.

What you're describing is a collection of gods that the character offers prayers and possibly sacrifices to, which is much more sensible. The approach you could take here is to examine the character's background, figure out their dreams, aspirations, hardships, stresses, and cultural background, compare those to the list of known gods, and find five or six who are relevant. Which gods do they naturally gravitate toward, by personality or trade? Who would you be terrified of and seek to appease? Who could really take some worry out of your life? Figure out how offering worship of these gods intersects with your life - how often do you do that? What does it look like?

There's no need to try to consolidate them into a "pantheon," unless your GM is willing to give you custom rules for it, which would be... oddly accommodating.

I agree with that, I think taking the feat Syncretism to worship both Torag & Yuelral would be more in line, rather than having a pantheon for 1 person.

A pantheon would make sense if there is a long lasting and big enough community of Dwarf blooded half elves.

What level will you be starting at and what flavour of Marshall is the Fighter going for?

Normally with 3 Martials, a Bard would be absolutely perfect, but a Marshal aura can compensate quite well.

A Champion would help as well with the healing (both with Lay on Hand and the reaction), so a Cleric would be overkill for heal. That being said additional healing is always a nice quality of life, so I'd stay away from Wizard, but a Witch could work (any tradition with lesson of Life).

I'd lean toward either Druid or Witch.

As a thought experiment, what kind of caster/caster build would pull a bit ahead?

Just ar a quick glance, a spell blending wizard /occult or divine Flexible Witch would be quite strong.

-SAD
-high number of high level spells
-Great flexibility with 2 prepared casting covering most spells, and flexibility on one
-above average familiar without investment
-access to a lot of 1 action focus spells, hex centripetal and cackle for action economy

Still not as imbalanced as fighter/x

I would say a fighter with either cloistered Cleric (for a ramped up warpiest type with Channel Smite), or with Wildshape Druid could also be a bit over the curve.

LG:
Superman, Princess Leia, Robocop (though he usually starts out as LN), Professor Xavier

Just a nitpicking, but I wouldn't have Professor Xavier as LG, he does a lot of bad to awful things in the X men back, in the name of the greater good, and also has a terrible habit of putting teenagers in deadly situations.

The consensus of posts above is that some Focus Spells are more powerful than a top spell slot spell. You can compare for yourself whether or not this is true using the examples given.

Tempest Surge at L3 = 1 target, range 30', 3d12 + on fail clumsy 2 and 1 pers. dmg (+1 heighten +1d12)
Lightning Bolt L3 = 4d12, 120' line (+1 heighten +1d12)
Comparison: Tempest Surge is clearly a level behind (dmg, range, area of effect)

Updraft at L1 = 1 target, range 60', 2d6 + on fail prone (+1 heighten +2d6
Hydraulic Push L1 = 1 target, range 60', 3d6 + 5'shove or crit 6d6 +10'shove (+1 heighten +2d6)
Comparison: Updraft is a level behind (dmg)

Crushing Ground at L1 = Same thing as updraft: riders +2d6
Comparison: Less than L1 Magic Missile, less than Shocking Grasp, less than Hydraulic Push. Same dmg as Burning Hands, but BH has an area of effect.

Focus Spells are balanced to be at least a level behind...

You are taking examples that goes along your argument, without following dome of the rules you mentioned.

You are comparing Ligntning bolt, a lvl 3 spell to Tempest Surge, a lvl 1 Focus spell. In my example I specifically took Combustion instead which is a lvl 3 Focus spell. As most spells, higher lvl spells have a higher baseline than updated lower level spell.
Combustion at lvl 3 is 4d8 damage + 2d6 persistent damage, but single target. You will most of the time easily outdamage Lightning bolt, and lines really are not that great as an aoe effect.

Similarly, you're comparing Updraft with Hydraulic Push, a save spell vs a spell attack one. Spell attack are meant to do more damage as they are hit or miss.

And you compare Crushing ground with Mafic Missile (variable actions, auto hit), Shocking Grasp (melee) and burning hands (short cone)? While also disregarding the rider effects of the focus spells?

A reach Shocking Grasp or a 3 action Magic Missile does more damage, but that's not taking into account the riders, or the extra action the Focus spell user have. Honestly lvl 1 lack in 1 target save blast, which makes these Focus spells even more appealing.

Plane wrote:

Focus Spells scale like cantrips. They're also behind the power of a top spell slot. If a non-caster dips into a class for a focus spell, they still can't match the same class level caster's top spell slot capabilities.

Just to bounce on that: It's not really true and really depends on the class you're speaking of. Focus Spell based classes, like Oracle or Druid, have very competing Focus Spells. There are a variety of Focus Spells that are at the level of the highest level spells you can cast, and some that can be even arguably considered better.

Exactly what I wanted to say. Especially the Druid focus spells are really good.

Tempest Surge, Updraft and Crushing ground are better and normal lvl 1 blasts, with good damage and good riders.
Combustion can be argued to be better than Lightning Bolt, same range, swap the line effect for persistent damage that will do overall more damages than Lightning Bolt.

At higher level you don't have as much an issue, but its' more due to the scarcity of higher levels Focus spells.

A 4e invoker path for the Cleric. Lose the Divine font and gain some Divine Wrath powers / focus spells.

Variable defense modifier would not be balanced in PF2.

I'll take Champion as an example, with that they only need Strength (cover their attack, Fort, and AC/Ref with heavy armor and Bulwark), and Charisma (Will saves, all their Champions abilities, social skills, rad skill feats, innate magic, powerful MC feats).

Wisdom lose almost all interest as an attribute vs Charisma.

Int/Dex won't change much, but we might see more intelligent medium/heavy armor wearers.

Strength just become OP, so per the champion example.

(Maybe the True Stike chats need its own thread?)

To revert to Original topic, here is a few reason (amongst many) why I believe classes need more in class options:

-Witches only have 3 Intermediate Curse & 2 Advanced (not counting the Rare one), that's very low for something supposed to be that central to the Class (Their late levels feats, apart from classic caster ones & flavour ones revolves around Hexes)

-Domains are now being used for Archetypes (which is a great use of material to save word count), but as a result a big thing supposed to be specific to Cleric, is now more widely accessible. Give something else to Clerics! (I'd love Doctrine specific Focus spells!)

And there is probably a lot more examples that could be brought forward!

Druid doesn't get many of them either. They can get Updraft instead of the normal Tempest Surge for being Storm Order.

That's because Druid can access them already with their new Orders, apart from Updraft that they can only get as an Elemntalist.

Wow, just noticed that it is the same for Universalist Wizard, and Sorcerers not of the Elemental bloodline (whether Arcane or Primal).

That does look like an oversight, as it really limits the classes/subclasses that really enjoy the archetype fully.

I really hope something good is being planned for the Cleric.

Harm Font is underwheling. Healing Font is good, but there is now several archetypes giving alternative to healing. The Font feats are nice, but there is no synergy there.

Domains are all over the place, but on top of that are also available to2 other classes, and are being used for new archetypes as well, like Runelord.

That would be nice if Clerics could get their own Focus spells or something.

On top of the classic skills, you also have access to all recall knowledge given by the class

If it wasn't enough, Charisma also gives you great innate spell casting and a wide array of great dedication, both multiclass and archetype.

Reducing the heightening to 2d4 makes the spell worst than Sound Burst which is also a lvl 2 Divine/Occult Spell.

Both have damage type that are rarely resisted.

Inner Radiance has a theoretical better area of effect but that in ractice will be really hard to use, especially other 2rounds, while sound burst should be easy to drop on at least a couple of enemies.

Sounds Burst would have better damage, and an effect on save fail / double effect on crit fail.

I'd even argue that Concordant Choir would be better (similar damage but better action flexibility) for a Spontaneous Caster or a Flexible Spellcaster.

Slot efficiency is good, but there is a lot that can be done with 6 actions and the spell should take tha into account (if reducing the damage, it should at least increase side effects for the 2 turns version).

So, now that I can see the SoM spells, it does seem that Paizo is enforcing Alignment damage & battle forms as the focus for Divine only spells.

I hope it's because book of the Dead is being worked on, but it really feels like the Divine list is not getting much attention.

Tiefling & other planar scions are normally from the material plane.

You could have some born in other plane, but the assumption is to be born in Golarion (if not you'd have to specify in your backstory with ST approval, and it's more homebrew than RAW).

SO banishment would only work in another plane to send you back to Golarion.

Can Magis use Spell strike with Innate cantrips? If so, that opens a lot more options than just alternative cantrip.

as GM I have seen Wizards thinking they contribute via their cantrip - when in reality a peasant with fists in a flanking position would make a larger difference to take down a BBEG more quickly.

Every fight is different. But it is important to inflict conditions in severe encounters. Flank if it is a single opponent. Focus fire if there are multiple.

Work together as a team.

It kinda feel like the role of the casters at low level is to enable the Martials to save the day, from your post.

I feel it's important to remind as well that Martials as well can impose debuffa and malus, and enable Casters.

Work as a team need to be both ways.

That would be nice to have some love for True Neutral deities as well.

As it is, the more alignment spells are added to the Divine list, the worst/mechanically inferior they become...

I don't know what Soulforger do, but I'm happy they are developing options for Divine & Wisdom Casters.

The Divine list is arguably the weakest (with some spells not even usable depending on deity), and Wisdom casters don't really have much in archetype/multiclass options.

Sure Wisdom is a good stat, but when you're looking at options that use it for dedication there isn't much, compared to Martials or other casters.

Lesson of life is imo really cool, but considerer that the bard hymn of healing is easy to get ( multitalented +1 class feat, or simply lvl 2 and lvl 4 dedication ), I am not sure I'd go for it.

The 2 are different enough to not invalidate each other:

Hymn of healing is 2 action and require sustains but gives temporary HP on initial cast.

Life Boost is 1 action and do not need sustain.

Now, as Hymn of healing is a composition and Life Boost an Hex, they limit the use of abilities with these so I can see the point of going dedication to play around that.

Having both on a (support) character doesn't seem great though,it would be a bit to Focus point intensive.

I really dislike the design limitatins on the font.

A big part of the Cleric Feats are linked to the font but most of them don't interact with each others at all.

That really feels like a missed opportunity for the sake of being too careful.

It's a bit of the same with theWitch Hex limitations of 1 per round with a 1 minute immunity...

It also add +1 fortitude to allies in the area for 1 minute, that can be quite handy.

I'd say from 3+ targets (allies + enemies) that is better than using a cantrip.

(15foot might be a bit short for a Sorcerer though)

YuriP wrote:

I can also easily imagine a "witch hunt" of some radical religion searching for evil/good/chaotic agents without fear from anything and beleving that what's done is right.

Remember in our real history we had witch hunt from church torturing and firing people for any suspicion.

I can very easily imagine a game working like this even for players.

And also related to this part of the idea is that everyone has to take the caster's word that they are Good and doing Good damage, and thus the people harmed are Evil, when the reality is that an Evil caster could be lying about the details.

Or the quite possible Chaotic follower of a Trickster Deity going around zapping people and pretending that Loyal People are actually evil (and if they are Chaotic Neutral, they will be immune to a Good Lance)

Regarding Electric Arc damage, you only expect ~6% drop off in damage for the 10 character levels where your proficiency is lagging.

Defensive Recovery and Fast Channel don't actually combo, as Defensive Recovery reads 'cast harm or heal on a single target'. If they did combo I would be a much bigger fan of both of them.
[...]
And finally, I very strongly choose to disagree on making Channel Smite work. The feat is mathematically horrendous and jumping through hoops to support it should be relegated to niche discussions far away from anyone actually trying to play Cleric to the class's strengths.

Are you counting both the proficiency lacking & the charisma being behind the main spelcasting stat of a full caster? On top of that, Cantrips (even Electrc Arc) fall behind in term of damage potetntial after a bit.

I keep forgetting the limit of single target on these feats (my cleric is actually a Domain specialist, not a font one, plus haven't reached lvl14 yet). It's very infuriating to see all these possibilities quashed...

Channel Smite is really not that bad, if you are gonna be in melee anyway, with bless on you (or with a Bard in the team), and if the other melles are used to Flank (plus possibe other debuffs with inimidate), it is quite accurate, and adding Trues Strike if needed is really not that much (but a nbit action intensive). It's not for all party composition, but it can work.

So, here are my critics:

Class overview, you really should specify that this is not a general overview, but in the optic of your idea of Support Cleric. For example, regarding Harm & Channel Smite, TheGentlemanDM guide provide build & ideas to make it work.

Character Goals, you actually never state in that guide what kind of Support Cleric this is for, or what kind of Support it brings to the team. From context, it seems to be mostly heal and status counteract?

At will damage – you should really mention that Electric Arc will fall down compared to a full caster.

Third actions: it’s all good but you never mention what should the 2 main actions the character should be doing? As the type of support is not defined, and there is no guide on spells, that’s a bit unclear. A quick guide on most useful spells per level could be good.

Class Feats, I am very surprised there is no mention of Defensive Recovery & Fast Channel, which make for a great combo to take a team out of a tough spot. There is also no recommended Domains despite domains feat being recommended.

All in all, it seems to be a guide for a very specific type of support Cleric (not specified which though), and lacking a bit of depth.

On a Strength Wild Druid, Wild Morph is a good alternative to Wild Shape.

Not only are you still able to cast, you also at high lvl don't have that many shapes at medium size.

Rather than try to turn cleric into a combat class (even the warpriest version doesn't actually do this) you start with a combat class and lean into cleric things via the dedication.

I actually found that a Warpriest can be a good combat class, of their deity provide at least some of:

Ragathiel & Gorum are prime example.

But Cayden just doesn't bring anything for that build, and forces to many of the ressources to try to make it work IMO

The problem with Cayden Warpriest & Channel Smite, is that Cayden font is Heal only. You can memorize Harm in your spell slots, but you will have less of them, and that will restrict your usage of highest lv spell slots.

You can make it work to an extent, but then I would ask, what are you looking from the character that cannot be done with a Champion of Cayden?

If you're going to play an adventure that involves encounters against megafauna, wild animals and carnivorous plants, perhaps as we'll see in Quest for the Frozen Flame, applying -2 stat penalty on an enemy with only 1 cantrip that costs 1 action and can be sustained is very strong and leaving him sickened in a saving throw failure is even better.

It's only -2 status penalty to attack the witch.

Also the problem with Wilding Word, is that it only target 1 creature at a time.

If you're facing a pack, all the other animals/plants can attack you with issue, and of you're facing one big creature, the Front line really should keep it away from the Witch.

It would be better if it could affect several creatures (maybe with heighten), or the first animal/plant to attack the witch while it is sustained (or even as a reaction once per minute when attacked by an animal/plant)

TheGoofyGE3K wrote:

I know in some editions and games pvp works well, and in some it doesnt. Has anyone had any experience using it in pf2?

I feel like you'd need teams for it to work. Casters are pretty bad when they don't have allies to support- what good is giving extra penalties to AC if there's nobody to do the hitting? Good champions lose one of their stronger features, and rogues need to provide non-flanking flat-footed.

Actually casters might not be in such a bad place, assuming everyone is the same level, incapacitation spells can be used with no problem.

Similar but different question: are versatile heritage taking over classic ones in your games?

(In other words, is there more characters with versatile heritage than classic heritage?)

Phase Familiar would also be a problem, if the AC/Familiar belongs to a witch.

Désign this far is getting away to specific spells lists tailored for a class.

Secret of Magic might change that, but I think we are stuck with the 4 traditions (which IMO is a good thing)

Spirit is a bit campaign specific. In a normal campaign it will underperform compared to the big 3 instincts.

In an Undead heavy campaign it will be amazing though, with easy weakness triggering and resistance to all damages from undead.

You are absolutely free to chose your cause and your deity.

Chose them so the tenets & anathema/ edict got with the character RP?