APG is here, lets theorize builds together.

[Reticent]

A Druid with the Insect Shape feat can wildshape into Pest Form with a duration of up to 24 hours...

...which is all the time in the world a Druid/Assassin needs to Mark for Death and set up a an Assassinate.

[Midnightoker]

A Goblin Fire Oracle with Burn It! and Bespell Weapon.

Use Incendiary Aura to generate an AoE where any time a creature takes fire damage, they also take 2d4 Persistent Fire Damage (+1 for Burn It) and your melee attacks deal 1d6 Fire damage with Bespell Weapon since Incendiary Aura is an Evocation Fire spell, which means your attacks trigger Incendiary Aura.

Then each round after that you can just cast Burning Hands or whatever works best.

Then, to take advantage of your close quarters flame action by grabbing a martial Archetype to your preference.

Long term, you can pick-up Blind-Fight at level 16 if you MCD into Fighter/Rogue/Ranger/Investigator. That means you get to ignore the flat-check from concealment, so your attacks no longer roll against concealment if you are at Moderate Curse level.

Personally think Fighter is a good get here, just for the fact that you can grab Fighter for weapons, then Double Strike, and then finally Blind Fight at level 16 without any other archetypes.

Feels pretty flavorful.

[Dansome]

Mellored wrote:

Flurry of Forks

** spoiler omitted **

Dual Slice -> Twin Takedown/Hunted Shot = 4 attacks at melee/range at -0/-0/-0*/-0*
*Flat-Footed is all but guaranteed after the 2nd attack. Add in a good chance to crit->clumsy 1 and your 4th attack could have a better chance to hit than your first. Also helps your allies.

Edit: Did anyone ever determine of thrown weapons count as ranged weapons? This all will still work with darts if needed.
Edit2: Yes, it was in the errata. Thrown weapons are ranged when thrown. So all good.

I really love this. Is there a way to make all your forks magical?

[Xenocrat]

A divine witch with a cat familiar who worships Bastet and always prepares Anathametic Reprisal to reaction attack anyone who harms her familiar.

[PawnJJ]

Midnightoker wrote:

Long term, you can pick-up Blind-Fight at level 16 if you MCD into Fighter/Rogue/Ranger/Investigator. That means you get to ignore the flat-check from concealment, so your attacks no longer roll against concealment if you are at Moderate Curse level.

You can't do anything to mitigate the cursed effects on you so blind fight won't work

Quote:

Your curse has the curse, divine, and necromancy traits. You can't mitigate, reduce, or remove the effects of your oracular curse by any means other than Refocusing and resting for 8 hours. For example, if your curse makes creatures concealed from you, you can't negate that concealed condition through a magic item or spell, such as true strike (though you would still benefit from the other effects of that item or spell). Likewise, remove curse and similar spells don't affect your curse at all.

Does seem pretty cool though. Wouldn't it be better to start with a martial for the better proficiency (since this seems more martialy than castery) and pick up Oracle dedication and then just use a flaming rune at level 8?

[Midnightoker]

PawnJJ wrote:

You can't do anything to mitigate the cursed effects on you so blind fight won't work

You're not. The targets are all still concealed. You simply don't roll flat-checks to target someone that is concealed.

Curse reads:

Quote:

You can't mitigate, reduce, or remove the effects of your oracular curse by any means other than Refocusing and resting for 8 hours. For example, if your curse makes creatures concealed from you, you can't negate that concealed condition through a magic item or spell, such as true strike (though you would still benefit from the other effects of that item or spell).

and Blind-Fight reads:

Quote:

Your battle instincts make you more aware of concealed and invisible opponents. You don’t need to succeed at a flat check to target concealed creatures. You’re not flat-footed to creatures that are hidden from you (unless you’re flat-footed to them for reasons other than the hidden condition), and you need only a successful DC 5 flat check to target a hidden creature.

You're not mitigating the condition, you're just better at fighting targets that are concealed. They are still concealed, you just don't roll flat checks against concealed targets and you're not flat-footed to hidden creatures.

Which is not the same thing as mitigating the effect itself.

As for the "go martial instead", potentially, but then you'd probably be best going Ranger.

That way you can pick up Focus Spells, extra attacks, etc.

The issue is being able to reliably trigger both Incendiary Aura and Bespell Weapon.

If you go Ranger though, it puts Bespell Weapon out of reach until level 8, and you'd have to spend 4 of your Class Feats on Oracle (unless you want to go Elf).

EDIT: On second look, maybe you can't pick Blind-Fight and have this work, as True Strike is worded similarly.

EDIT 2: Does Eldritch Shot qualify given how the Moderate Curse is worded:

Quote:

however, when casting a fire spell, you automatically succeed at the flat check for this concealed condition for targets within 30 feet.

And then Eldritch Shot does seem to qualify, as you are "casting a spell", even though the spell is part of a Strike:

Quote:

You Cast a Spell that takes 1 or 2 actions to cast and requires a spell attack roll. The effects of the spell do not occur immediately but are imbued into the bow you're wielding. Make a Strike with that bow. Your spell flies with the ammunition, using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell. This counts as two attacks for your multiple attack penalty, but you don't apply the penalty until after you've completed both attacks.

If that does work together, I think that makes Eldritch Archer practically mandatory for this build.

[PawnJJ]

Midnightoker wrote:

As for the "go martial instead", potentially, but then you'd probably be best going Ranger.

That way you can pick up Focus Spells, extra attacks, etc.

The issue is being able to reliably trigger both Incendiary Aura and Bespell Weapon.

If you go Ranger though, it puts Bespell Weapon out of reach until level 8, and you'd have to spend 4 of your Class Feats on Oracle (unless you want to go Elf).

EDIT: On second look, maybe you can't pick Blind-Fight and have this work, as True Strike is worded similarly.

EDIT 2: Does Eldritch Shot qualify given how the Moderate Curse is worded:

Quote:

however, when casting a fire spell, you automatically succeed at the

...

For Eldritch Shot, since it's not actually using the cast a spell action I would say probably not, but I could probably be persuaded the other way if I was GMing.

For martials, you could go monk and use their fire attack stance to trigger it at will without having to try for bespell weapon shenanigans. And like I said before just plop a Flaming Rune in your weapon.

Also, if you take the Oracle dedication instead of the class, you only ever recieve the minor curse. If you progress past that you just become flat-footed.

[Midnightoker]

PawnJJ wrote:

For Eldritch Shot, since it's not actually using the cast a spell action I would say probably not, but I could probably be persuaded the other way if I was GMing.

Well, you are using the cast a spell action:

Quote:

You Cast a Spell that takes 1 or 2 actions to cast and requires a spell attack roll.

Very first line of Eldritch Shot. Also the mystery doesn't explicitly state using "Cast a Spell" action, it just says:

Quote:

when casting a fire spell

I agree it's semi-gray area, but honestly I think RAW it seems to indicate they work together.

And personally, if a Fire Oracle has made this kind of investment I would allow it anyways, but I would say the RAW certainly doesn't preclude it by default.

[Mellored]

Dansome wrote:

Mellored wrote:

Flurry of Forks

** spoiler omitted **

Dual Slice -> Twin Takedown/Hunted Shot = 4 attacks at melee/range at -0/-0/-0*/-0*
*Flat-Footed is all but guaranteed after the 2nd attack. Add in a good chance to crit->clumsy 1 and your 4th attack could have a better chance to hit than your first. Also helps your allies.

Edit: Did anyone ever determine of thrown weapons count as ranged weapons? This all will still work with darts if needed.
Edit2: Yes, it was in the errata. Thrown weapons are ranged when thrown. So all good.

I really love this. Is there a way to make all your forks magical?

Returning... But yea, I don't see a duplicate ring option.

Fortunately, only 1 of the attacks is off-hand.

But... I just noticed Hunted Shot requires a reload 0. So the only thrown weapon it will work with is shiruken.

So need to do some rearranging.

Flurry of Stars:

1: Hunted Shot (start with a bow), Natural Ambition (Gravity Weapon)
2: Monk Dedication (melee backup)
4: Monk Monastic Weapons (Shiruken)
5: Elven Instincts
6: Monk Ki Rush (only useful thing)
8: Dual-Weapon Warrior Dedication
9: Multitalented (Champion)
10: Dual Thrower
12: Champion Reaction
13: Pinch Time (haste)
14: Dual Onslaught
16: Distracting Shot
17: Heroic Presence
18: Greater Distracting Shot
20: Far Shot/Double Prey

So basically had to shift everything a few levels, but the core still fits.
So -0/-1*/-0**/-0** at range, +(haste), + champions reaction + flat footed for all your allies.
*Second attack would be second magic item, so probably -1 behind.
**Still flat footed for your allies.

[shroudb]

Mellored wrote:

Dansome wrote:

Mellored wrote:

Flurry of Forks

** spoiler omitted **

Dual Slice -> Twin Takedown/Hunted Shot = 4 attacks at melee/range at -0/-0/-0*/-0*
*Flat-Footed is all but guaranteed after the 2nd attack. Add in a good chance to crit->clumsy 1 and your 4th attack could have a better chance to hit than your first. Also helps your allies.

Edit: Did anyone ever determine of thrown weapons count as ranged weapons? This all will still work with darts if needed.
Edit2: Yes, it was in the errata. Thrown weapons are ranged when thrown. So all good.

I really love this. Is there a way to make all your forks magical?

Returning... But yea, I don't see a duplicate ring option.

Fortunately, only 1 of the attacks is off-hand.

But... I just noticed Hunted Shot requires a reload 0. So the only thrown weapon it will work with is shiruken.

So need to do some rearranging.
** spoiler omitted **

So basically had to shift everything a few levels, but the core still fits.
So -0/-1*/-0**/-0** at range, +(haste), + champions reaction + flat footed for all your allies.
*Second attack would be second magic item, so probably -1 behind.
**Still flat footed for your allies.

if you're spending 3 class feats just for access to shurikens, then there's a background if i remember correctly that gives you that.

[Mellored]

shroudb wrote:

if you're spending 3 class feats just for access to shurikens, then there's a background if i remember correctly that gives you that.

yes,

Ruby Phoenoix, thanks.

[Mellored]

Ranger Snare master + Swashbucker Lead the Dance.

Either on the same character or working together.

Also can work with stuff like cloud kill, or fire wall.

[shroudb]

Just realised that Crushing Grab+Clinging shadow initiate is basically Force Choke.

Now i need to make a dark sith monk Force choking people from afar...

[Midnightoker]

shroudb wrote:

Just realised that Crushing Grab+Clinging shadow initiate is basically Force Choke.

Now i need to make a dark sith monk Force choking people from afar...

Okay, now this one is pretty cool.

Then go Monastic Weaponry, pick up Temple Sword (go for Flaming since Brilliant Energy isn't a thing anymore). If you wanted to be extra like Anakin, you could probably pick up Sentinel just to be cool

[Kyrone]

Putting WAR on the Priest

Cleric Warpriest of Gorum
18 Wis, 16 Str, 14 Cha

2)Sentinel
4)Channel Smite
Sentinel Skill feats at lvl 4 and 6
6)Marshal Dedication
8)Inspiring Marshal Stance
10)Topple Foe
12)Mighty Bulwark

Heavy Armor Commander that have the blessing of Gorum behind.

[Ventnor]

Kyrone wrote:

Putting WAR on the Priest

Cleric Warpriest of Gorum
18 Wis, 16 Str, 14 Cha

2)Sentinel
4)Channel Smite
Sentinel Skill feats at lvl 4 and 6
6)Marshal Dedication
8)Inspiring Marshal Stance
10)Topple Foe
12)Mighty Bulwark

Heavy Armor Commander that have the blessing of Gorum behind.

What do you mean by "Sentinel Skill feats"?

[Midnightoker]

Ventnor wrote:

Kyrone wrote:

Putting WAR on the Priest

Cleric Warpriest of Gorum
18 Wis, 16 Str, 14 Cha

2)Sentinel
4)Channel Smite
Sentinel Skill feats at lvl 4 and 6
6)Marshal Dedication
8)Inspiring Marshal Stance
10)Topple Foe
12)Mighty Bulwark

Heavy Armor Commander that have the blessing of Gorum behind.

What do you mean by "Sentinel Skill feats"?

Steel Skin and Armor Specialist are both Skill Feats, so they can be taken with Skill/General Feats.

EDIT: On second look though, Steel Skin makes sense as a Skill Feat but Armor Specialist straight up looks like it should have been a regular Class/Archetype/etc. Feat... it doesn't even relate to Skills at all.

[WWHsmackdown]

Tengu aasimar heritage on a interrogation methodology investigator with court lore

HARVY BIRDMAN ATTORNEY AT LAW

(also get the squawk ancestry feat to cover up bad calls in the courtroom)

[Debelinho]

Investigator Eldritch archer

Stratagem + eldritch shot vs bosses that are mostly the subject of your investigation
or enchanted arrows as a 2 action attack when stratagem costs you an action
If all fails cast an electric arc or use battle medicine or some other stuff

never waste a turn in your life

[Schreckstoff]

Not far into this build but the core goes

Kobold Investigator Dragon Disciple
8/14/14/18/10/12 or 10/14/12/18/12/12
DD primarily for the AC boost at 4, the rest of the ability boosts go into con, int, wis and cha to boost perception and innate spells. and maybe another multiclass

weapon either ranged or trying to eventually grab unconventional weaponry for an aldori dueling sword

horrible action economy vs anything but bosses you can pursue a lead on but a pretty good face character, probably grab multitalented if you got human ancestry.
Still trying to figure out a way to get power attack, mauler dedication seems wasteful but it would solve the action economy for when you can't devise a stratagem as a free action

[pauljathome]

Debelinho wrote:

Investigator Eldritch archer

Stratagem + eldritch shot vs bosses that are mostly the subject of your investigation
or enchanted arrows as a 2 action attack when stratagem costs you an action
If all fails cast an electric arc or use battle medicine or some other stuff

never waste a turn in your life

How does that work? Strategem is 1 action, Eldritch shot is 3. Even if you have haste up you can't use Strategem with Eldritch shot.

[shroudb]

pauljathome wrote:

Debelinho wrote:

Investigator Eldritch archer

Stratagem + eldritch shot vs bosses that are mostly the subject of your investigation
or enchanted arrows as a 2 action attack when stratagem costs you an action
If all fails cast an electric arc or use battle medicine or some other stuff

never waste a turn in your life

How does that work? Strategem is 1 action, Eldritch shot is 3. Even if you have haste up you can't use Strategem with Eldritch shot.

stratagem is free action vs the target of your investigation, hence why he said only against bosses since vs those there's a good chance they are a target of your investigation.

as an added bonus, at level 10 you can make an enemy your target of investigation using a reaction once per hour, so this tactic gets expanded a bit.

[shroudb]

Dashing Investigator:

Kobold Investigator:
Str 10
Dex 14
Con 10
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 16

If you want to be a bit more daredevil you can try 8 Con 12 Wis... but good friends never advice going 8 Con ^^. Alternative 12 Wis and 14 Cha also suffices, but each +1 counts when you're fishing for crits with your skills.

Alchemical sciences methodology
You don't care about your Dex for attacks, so Drakeheart is a very nice boost on your AC since you can comfortably leave Dex at 14. Plus there are some utility eleixrs/tools that you can pick up for investigation purposes like bloodhound mask, leaping elixirs, mutagens for skills for social encounters and such.

Ancestry feats:
1: breath
5: whatever
9: dracomancer
13: elite dracomancer

You should probably pick an Exemplar with a line breath and non-hostile spells since you dont need to care about your DC with them.
Copper is a nice one for that, giving you access to stuff like haste and stoneskin and invisibility/glitterdust and etc

Class feats:
1: known weakness/that's odd
2: Swashbuckler dedication (Wit)
4: Swashbuckler feat: One for All
6: Swashbuckler precise strike/Nimble dodge/Shared statagem
8: Alcehmical discoveries
10: Suspect of opportunity
12: shared statagem/Foresee danger
14: Bypass/ssense the unseen
16: Didactic strike

You should be using a bow or something ranged to make it easier to pick your targets.

In between Breath, draconic spells, One for All, Bon Mot, Elixirs you have a ton of actions that you can use in case your Stratagem points out a miss, or even as your 3rd action if you dont need to move. From damage options like Breath to simultaneously buffing and debuffing with Bon Mot+One for All. Panache should be easy to aquire and should help both with mobility and those skills as well. You have heavy armor Ac without any sort of pesky skill/speed penalties, plus the +Item to perception should help until you raise your Wisdom sufficiently (Con, Wis, Int, Cha should be your level up stat boosts imo)

And ofc, High Int+ High Cha in an Investigator plus flexible skill mutagens means that you can simultaneously be the skill monkey and the Face of the group.

[Xenocrat]

Flames Oracle with witch dedication. Independent on the familiar, it uses its one action to Point Out targets for AOE spells that your curse prevents you from seeing and is basically your seeing eye cat out of combat. Take Elemental Betrayal hex for extra direct and persistent fire damage against a tough target.

[Gaulin]

I'm not sure having a familiar as a flame oracle is a good idea. Your highest level curse would damage it if it was too close, for one. But also the point out action is only to make things go from undetected to hidden, and things are already hidden to flame oracles under their curse (hidden means you know which square they're in, but need to succeed at a DC 11 flat check to hit them), so a familiar isn't necessary for that.

[Mellored]

Flame oracle grappler...

Does champion reaction ignore concealment? Would that be a targeted ability?
This guy needs armor...

[Mellored]

Gaulin wrote:

I'm not sure having a familiar as a flame oracle is a good idea. Your highest level curse would damage it if it was too close, for one. But also the point out action is only to make things go from undetected to hidden, and things are already hidden to flame oracles under their curse (hidden means you know which square they're in, but need to succeed at a DC 11 flat check to hit them), so a familiar isn't necessary for that.

You can get fire resist for the familiar.

As well as no damage on a successful reflex save, which could be good if you fireball stuff.

[manbearscientist]

Idea: Wild Shape Abusing Martial Artist

Ancient Elf
Background - Any suitable
Class - Monk
Stats
A - +S/+D/+I/-Co
B - +S/+W
C - +S
1 - +S/+Co/+I/+W
5 - +S/+Co/+I/+W
10 - +S/+Co/+I/+W
15 - +S/+Co/+I/+W
20 - +S/+Co/+I/+W
Apex Item - +S
Final Stats: +7S/+1D/+4Co/+5I/+5W/+0Ca

General Feats-
1-Fleet
5-Toughness

Elf Feats
Heritage - Ancient Elf (Druid-Wild)
1-Nimble Elf
5-Forest Stealth
9-Forlorn
13-Elf Step
17-Avenge Ally

Class Feats
1-Mountain Stance
2-Stunning Fist
4-Wild Shape (B.Wilding)
6-Mountain Stronghold
8-Leshy Familiar (O. Explorer)
10-Enhanced Familiar
12-One-Inch Punch
14-Stance Savant
16-Ferocious Shape (A. Wilding)
18-Soaring Shape (A. Wilding)
20-Golden Body

Class Feats (Free Archetype)
1-Mountain Stance
2-Stunning Fist
4-Flying Kick/Wild Shape
6-Mountain Stronghold/Leshy Familiar
8-One-Inch Punch/Enhanced Familiar
10-Ironblood Stance/Basic Casting
12-Stance Savant/Expert Casting
14-Mountain Quake/Form Control
16-Soaring Shape/Ferocious Shape
18-Diamond Fists/Master Casting
20-Golden Body/Plant Form

The basic idea here is that virtually all Wild Shape forms have the following bit of text, but one does not and allows us to take full advantage of a monk form:

Quote:

You gain...One or more unarmed melee attacks specific to the battle form you choose, which are the only attacks you can use.

The one form that doesn't? Pest Form. Now Pest Form has awful AC, giving only 15+level. But we can do a lot to improve that, because Mountain Stance gives +4 status bonus to AC which explicitly is allowed per the rules of the polymorph trait. Mountain Stoutness gives +2 circumstance, also stacking. This means that at level 4 you have 23 AC in Pest Form. Normally, Mountain Stance would give you 22 AC (18 prof + 4 status) so we've turned a poor AC into a good one.

It is also slow, but we have +20 move by the time we get to it which will tide us over until we reach level 7.

Why are we going through this effort? Whenever we use our own attack modifier while under the effects of Wild Shape, we get a +2 status bonus to attacks. This means that our Pest Form is hitting an accuracy usually only limited to monks.

Now we could be a Fighter and use the Martial Arts dedication for this to get even more attack, but we mostly stay monk for the later feats.

The familiar has the following abilities: Speech, Manual Dexterity, Humanoid Form, and Independent or Skilled-Deception. While in Pest Form and out of combat, we allow the familiar to play the part of the person while we chill out as the parrot on the shoulder. This has a mechanical benefit: as the familiar is a Medium creature, we gain cover from it while in its square. We can also use it to Take Cover, increasing that to +4 circumstance bonus to AC. A very friendly GM might even let you use Forest Stealth to Hide. Your familiar's AC will not be great, so it may be better to use a teammate as your cover in combat.

You may notice that both versions end up taking Ferocious Shape and Soaring Shape. This is to access Pterosaur. This has the unique benefit of having a 6d6+10 unarmed attack. While Mountain Stance is less useful for Pterosaur as it prohibits attacks, it does give you a solid 'tank up' option, being able to easily go +6 with 2 actions.

However, the real benefit here can be seen in the free archetype variant, with Diamond Fists. Now we already have a solid attacking option in Pest Form with our eventual +38 falling stone Strikes that deal 4d10+13+4d6 with the deadly d12, forceful, nonlethal, and unarmed traits. This deals 49 damage, but forceful also means that the second attack we make gets x/dice damage and the third+ 2x/dice damage.

The pterosaur's beak however deals 45 damage once all is accounted for, but also gains forceful. This means that additional attacks gain +6 and then +12 to damage rather than +4 and +8. Alternatively, we can use the T-Rex form. This has the benefit of a d12 bite attack (2d12+21 base damage after weapon specialization). This works well with One-Inch Punch.

Pest Form's AC will not scale into the late-game, so it will mostly be used to get in a surprise attack before shifting to another form for some more defense. For comparison, a Wizard at level 20 can have 43 AC (34 proficiency, +3 item, +6 Dexterity) while Pest Form is 39 AC before adding in circumstance bonuses. Plant Form is your tankiest form at base 42 AC, while Aerial/Dinosaur have 44 AC.

Skill feats are optional, but Assurance in Stealth, Deception and Athletics will be useful.

An alternative to this is to use a Kobold and go base Druid. With Scales of the Dragon, you get a +2 Status Bonus to AC. This is a little less than Mountain Stance, but works better with forms. Eventually you would get Nature Incarnate, allowing you to get a base 47 defense, higher with circumstance bonuses. It would be harder to take advantage of Wild Shape's free +2 status to attacks (you'd be at +35 using your own attack roll), but you could use tangled rake stance to immobilize huge swathes of the battlefield in kaiju form or Path of Iron/Flurry of Blows with the tremendously powerful attacks in those forms.

[Thebazilly]

manbearscientist wrote:

Idea: Wild Shape Abusing Martial Artist

Ah, the songbird of doom build is back.

[Reckless]

I'm working on the healing-est fool ever without ever touching a spell.

Forensic Medicine Methodology Investigator gives trained in medicine and Battle Medicine Feat, and makes it so people are only immune to your Battle Medicine for 1 hour instead of 1 day and heal an additional amount of HP equal to your level. At second level, take the Medic Dedication, which increases your Medicine to Expert and gives you bonus to your healing as well as letting you use Battle Medicine on someone who is immune. You also get a skill feat, so either Ward Medic or Continual Recovery. Your 3rd level Skillful Lesson picks up the other one.

Being a follower of the Laws of Mortality, pick up Godless Healing and Mortal Healing along the way to becoming a Master of Medicine at 7th level, at which point your dedication allows you to use Battle Medicine on a temporarily immune person once per hour. Combined with Forensic Medicine, this means you can use Battle Medicine on every party member twice an hour.

At 7th level, you are Master in Medicine able to heal 4d8+15 on a roll of 4 or better or 4d8+40 on a roll of 14 or better for up to 4 people every ten minutes of treating wounds. You are able to do the same during combat for each PC twice an hour with a +7 bonus to the HP you heal. You could also choose to just heal 4d8 without fear of critical failure ( a 1 results in a failure against DC 15, not a critical failure.)

With Doctor's Visitation, you can stride and Battle Medicine as one action, allowing you to be all over the battlefield healing.

EDIT: haven't looked into it yet, but for extra fun you could Druid dedication him by level 8 and have Primal Healing Spells coming online with some archetype feats at 10th and 12th, so as not to interfere with your Mortal Healing and to give you options for those times you've already used Battle Medicine twice in one hour...

[Thud the Fallen]

Had the same idea for the medic investigator and was pleasantly surprised that you can grab the skill feats and be able to get a new dedication at level 6 if you want (hope that is how it works). Don’t forget to be a barber and get my new favorite skill feat Risky Surgery at level 1!

[TiwazBlackhand]

Tiefling Swashbuckler with the Form of the Fiend Ancestry feat for a Tail attack.

Just, fully build to maximize effectiveness with your tail.

[Mellored]

Orc Dhamphir (negative healing)
Champion iron command, shield ally, (corrupting touch will heal you)
Str/Con, and third. No need for Cha

1: iron repercussion, orc ferocity
2: deity's domain undeath (just use the point).
4: monk devotion
5: bloody blows
6: corrupted shield/opportunity attack (if the GM attacks/ignores you)
8: quick block
9: undying ferocity
10: flurry of blows
12: advanced domain (fast healing).
13: incredible ferocity
14: divine reflexes
16: perfection path (reflex)
17: rampaging ferocity/symphony of blood
18: opportunity attack/corrupted shield
20: shield paragon

So if you get hit, you block 22, and deal 3d6 negative +6d6 persistant mental.
Also, fast heal 19 (*1 minute = 190), and 2 more (self) heals for 60 each, and all of the ferocity stuff.
Also, ferocity.

Flurry of blows lets attack twice and raise shield, possibly a tower shield. And you will be around long enough for persistent mental and bleeding damage to add up.

[Verzen]

Rain of embers stance kobold monk with flame oracle dedication... incendiary aura.

Attack twice then breath weapon.

[Dubious Scholar]

Verzen wrote:

Rain of embers stance kobold monk with flame oracle dedication... incendiary aura.

Attack twice then breath weapon.

Breath weapon is two actions, and persistent damage doesn't stack. So just using a breath weapon is enough.

[Mellored]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Rain of embers stance kobold monk with flame oracle dedication... incendiary aura.

Attack twice then breath weapon.

Breath weapon is two actions, and persistent damage doesn't stack. So just using a breath weapon is enough.

flurry of blows is 1 action. Makes it possible for monks to attack + cast.

Though the aura and stance will eat up your entire first turn, and you will just need to hope the enemies come to you.

And yea, persistent damage does not stack.

Could still work, but not as strong as it first seems.

[gnoams]

Thebazilly wrote:

manbearscientist wrote:

Idea: Wild Shape Abusing Martial Artist

Ah, the songbird of doom build is back.

Except that a good ac in pf2 is still getting hit regularly, and that weakness 5 to physical damage really hurts.

[andreww]

Also, pest form has no attacks listed for it at all. Expecting to be able to use unarmed strikes in pest form seems very much like wishful thinking.

[manbearscientist]

andreww wrote:

Also, pest form has no attacks listed for it at all. Expecting to be able to use unarmed strikes in pest form seems very much like wishful thinking.

Pest Form in no way says "you cannot make unarmed attacks." If it wanted to limit unarmed attacks, it easily could. For instance, it could say:

Quote:

You gain the following statistics and abilities: ...

One unarmed attack which is the only attack you can use. You're trained with them. Your attack modifier is +6, and your damage bonus is +0. These attacks are Dexterity based (for the purpose of the clumsy condition, for example). You choose whether you gain a jaws (1d4 P, finesse), claws (1d4 S, finesse), or slam (1d4 B, finesse) or some functional equivalent to one of these attacks with purely cosmetic changes.

It doesn't have this language. Arguably the intention here was that you'd still be able to use the basic unarmed attack in this form, the fist attack that deals 1d4 B, rather than being totally defenseless. If they didn't want you attacking at all, they'd use language like Gaseous Form "[you] can't cast spells, activate items, or use actions that have the attack or manipulate trait" or Tree Shape "you can't act other than to [make move actions] or end the spell".

This is not the only polymorph effect that does not specify the attacks you gain, and it clearly isn't an innate restrict of spells with this trait. Fiery Body specifically calls out that your unarmed attacks deal extra damage, for instance.

Now the polymorph trait itself does have a potential stumbling block:

Quote:

...the battle form prevents you from casting spells, speaking, and using most manipulate actions that require hands. (If there’s doubt about whether you can use an action, the GM decides.)

However, I think that the line in the parenthesis clearly refers to the 'most manipulate actions that require hands' line. An unarmed attack is not a manipulate action that requires hands nor any of the the other generally prohibits actions. This seems to cover issues such as whether a caster could Interact to open a door while under the effects of Fiery Body.

Given the text of Gaseous Form and Tree Shape, that seems to be the interpretation that best fits the text.

[Verzen]

I know persistent doesn't stack. The point is, is to attack multiple targets around you.

[Midnightoker]

manbearscientist wrote:

However, I think that the line in the parenthesis clearly refers to the 'most manipulate actions that require hands' line. An unarmed attack is not a manipulate action that requires hands

I think the fact that it says the GM decides and a Pest Form realistically isn't going to be able to sport an unarmed attack (and that's why there are no statistics listed), it's a pretty safe assumption that you simply can't.

It doesn't explicitly say you can't, but it also says everything is absorbed into your new form and you can't take any other actions that require hands.

I'm normally an inclusive reader, but this seems pretty cut and dry RAI and RAW (if something doesn't tell you that you can, usually that's because you can't).

YMMV

[Mellored]

manbearscientist wrote:

The one form that doesn't? Pest Form. Now Pest Form has awful AC, giving only 15+level. But we can do a lot to improve that, because Mountain Stance gives +4 status bonus to AC which explicitly is allowed per the rules of the polymorph trait. Mountain Stoutness gives +2 circumstance, also stacking. This means that at level 4 you have 23 AC in Pest Form. Normally, Mountain Stance would give you 22 AC (18 prof + 4 status) so we've turned a poor AC into a good one.

since proficiency does not matter...

Can you wear heavy armor, transform, and be considered unarmored to get I to mountain stance?

It won't solve the higher level AC issue, but heavy armor has some more defensive runes.

[Mellored]

Midnightoker wrote:

manbearscientist wrote:

However, I think that the line in the parenthesis clearly refers to the 'most manipulate actions that require hands' line. An unarmed attack is not a manipulate action that requires hands

I think the fact that it says the GM decides and a Pest Form realistically isn't going to be able to sport an unarmed attack (and that's why there are no statistics listed), it's a pretty safe assumption that you simply can't.

It doesn't explicitly say you can't, but it also says everything is absorbed into your new form and you can't take any other actions that require hands.

I'm normally an inclusive reader, but this seems pretty cut and dry RAI and RAW (if something doesn't tell you that you can, usually that's because you can't).

YMMV

meh. You gain vulnerable 5 and -5 speed in exchange for +2 to hit seems pretty balanced to me. The extra 1 AC won't really last long, and you will fall behind after that.

I see no reason to ban it just because it may be unintentional. It is fun and balanced.

In fact, I would support the build with some kind of +AC item at higher level.

[Djinn71]

Reckless wrote:

Being a follower of the Laws of Mortality, pick up Godless Healing and Mortal Healing along the way to becoming a Master of Medicine at 7th level, at which point your dedication allows you to use Battle Medicine on a temporarily immune person once per hour. Combined with Forensic Medicine, this means you can use Battle Medicine on every party member twice an hour.

I'm pretty sure you can only use it on one temporarily immune person per hour, not once per person. So in a four person party at 7th level, even with Godless Healing + Forensic Methodology + Master in Medicine + Medic Dedication you can only use Battle Medicine a maximum of five times an hour, and only more than once on a single person, and only healing for an average of 31hp (2d8+22, although it is 2d8+27 on someone with Godless Healing). Decent, but Clerics still reign supreme for party healing in combat IMO.

I really wish Godless Healing stacked a little more with Forensic Methodology so you could have a party composition optimised to work without magical healing and rewarded for that coordination.

Another caveat I'd put here is that there may be a few effects that just can't be healed without magic, like Cursed Wounds (not that a caster of that level will have any better odds, but I'm assuming the counteract level for that is a typo).

I do think the action economy of Doctor's Visitation (assuming you don't need a free hand, if you do just get the Blessed One dedication instead) does lend itself quite well to a Rogue or some other squishy melee character being much more independent, while still offering a solid amount of utility healing to the party.

[cavernshark]

In the context of every change made in this edition to polymorph effects and how they most clearly seem to be designed to stop some of the worst rules interactions of 1E, there is no genuine way to read Pest Form and assume that you're meant to have any attack capability at all, nor that it would enable some kind of crazy build.

Sometimes, turning into a bug to sneak into a room or get away is just turning into a bug to sneak into a room or get away.

[Midnightoker]

cavernshark wrote:

Sometimes, turning into a bug to sneak into a room or get away is just turning into a bug to sneak into a room or get away.

This.

If we can't see the value in turning into a Tiny, highly perceptive, difficult to hit, then I don't know what to say.

It clearly isn't meant to be an offensive spell.

If you want to allow Ant Man at your tables, then more power to you, but using dubious logic (likely not RAI) to justify a mechanically broken/weird build? Pretty sure any GM worth their salt is going to not allow that.

To each their own.

[Mellored]

cavernshark wrote:

In the context of every change made in this edition to polymorph effects and how they most clearly seem to be designed to stop some of the worst rules interactions of 1E, there is no genuine way to read Pest Form and assume that you're meant to have any attack capability at all, nor that it would enable some kind of crazy build.

Sometimes, turning into a bug to sneak into a room or get away is just turning into a bug to sneak into a room or get away.

It HAS stopped the worst rule interactions. Nothing is stacking here. Your not getting extra attacks, or extra armor, or anything else like that.

Just because it was broken is pf1, does not mean it is broken on pf2. This is not going to make a polearm fighter feel useless. Or even other monks.

And per the rules....
"Some of the most memorable moments come from situations that inherently call for a rules interpretation ... It’s usually better to say “yes” than “no,” within reason."

[manbearscientist]

Midnightoker wrote:

manbearscientist wrote:

However, I think that the line in the parenthesis clearly refers to the 'most manipulate actions that require hands' line. An unarmed attack is not a manipulate action that requires hands

I think the fact that it says the GM decides and a Pest Form realistically isn't going to be able to sport an unarmed attack (and that's why there are no statistics listed), it's a pretty safe assumption that you simply can't.

It doesn't explicitly say you can't, but it also says everything is absorbed into your new form and you can't take any other actions that require hands.

I'm normally an inclusive reader, but this seems pretty cut and dry RAI and RAW (if something doesn't tell you that you can, usually that's because you can't).

YMMV

There are four ways they could have clearly prevented attacking in Pest Form.

1. Give it a weak attack and make it the only attack you could use
2. Say it can't attack.
3. Say you can only make certain specific actions.
4. Clearly say in the polymorph trait that the only attacks you can use are those specified in the spell (or prevent you from gaining attacks except via the spell).

To use another example, what if said Monk entered Wild Winds Stance and then used Wild Shape? Said stance clearly says "You can make wind crash unarmed Strikes as ranged Strikes against targets within 30 feet." What line of text makes said monk lose their ability to make these magical Strikes?

To go strictly textualist, Mountain Stance clearly says you can make falling stone attacks. Pest Form doesn't say you lose that ability. Polymorph trait specifically calls out several actions, but attacking with an unarmed attack is not casting a spell, speaking, activating an object, or making a Manipulate action that requires hands.

It may not be RAI, but it is hard sell to me to say it doesn't work from a RAW perspective. There is no 'doubt' in the line "you can make ... falling stone unarmed attacks". Nothing about that limits you in size or shape. A Halfling under the effects of Shrink can make such attacks just as much a Human under the effects of Titan's Stature (both polymorph effects that don't say anything about unarmed attacks, mind you).

You explicitly gain falling stone attacks, and are not explicitly prevented from using them or explicitly called out as losing them.

That said, it is barely even viable, let alone broken. It is almost universally better to use Animal Force et al. rather than using Pest Form and Mountain Stance. It rapidly begins to fall behind in AC and already has huge downsides in speed, ground reliance, and in having weakness 5 to all physical damage. One could easily go into another stance, reap the passive benefits and still get the +2 status bonus to attacks (Ironblood for instance gives you resistance to damage).

[cavernshark]

manbearscientist wrote:

There are four ways they could have clearly prevented attacking in Pest Form.

1. Give it a weak attack and make it the only attack you could use
2. Say it can't attack.
3. Say you can only make certain specific actions.
4. Clearly say in the polymorph trait that the only attacks you can use are those specified in the spell (or prevent you from gaining attacks except via the spell).

To use another example, what if said Monk entered Wild Winds Stance and then used Wild Shape? Said stance clearly says "You can make wind crash unarmed Strikes as ranged Strikes against targets within 30 feet." What line of text makes said monk lose their ability to make these magical Strikes?

To go strictly textualist, Mountain Stance clearly says you can make falling stone attacks. Pest Form doesn't say you lose that ability. Polymorph trait specifically calls out several actions, but attacking with an unarmed attack is not casting a spell, speaking, activating an object, or making a Manipulate action that requires hands.

It may not be RAI, but it is hard sell to me to say it doesn't work from a RAW perspective. There is no 'doubt' in the line "you can make ... falling stone unarmed attacks"....

You're arguing as textualist. I believe we're all making reasonable inferences based on the cumulative body of changes made around battle forms. The fact that every other battle form gives you an inclusive list of abilities, which include attacks, means the omission of attacks on pest form is probably entirely intended. It's also consistent with the fact that familiar's don't have attacks in this edition...and the description of pest forms clearly overlaps that subset of tiny creatures.

As for assuming a stance and then using it in a form, the other forms that actually list attacks prohibit it. That's more evidence to suggest it wouldn't work on pest form. To add substance to that thought, there's literally no reason to think someone who trained in a specific martial art would easily be able to translate that into a completely different physical form.

I mean, you do you, but I doubt I'm the only GM who would say no to this particular interaction.

[Midnightoker]

manbearscientist wrote:

It may not be RAI, but it is hard sell to me to say it doesn't work from a RAW perspective.

I mean the last line is pretty indicative. You don't have fists to make attacks with, so therefore, you cannot make an unarmed attack.

The four ways you listed includes:

1. Giving it an attack..

2. Stating explicitly that it doesn't do something that it never says you can do

3. It does say that, right under Polymorph

4. There's already potential errata for this because of the way they are worded (where you can't Escape from grapples because it states "attacks you can make", and not all Polymorph battle forms necessarily have Strikes specific to them, like Fiery Form)

But I digress, it really doesn't matter to me.