Mellored's page

Mellored wrote:

It's not cumulative.

Bodyguard effectivly makes the resistance last longer. So if they get hit twice (or more), they are still partially protected.

Note the attack doesn't need to be from the same enemy, nor does your ally need to stay next to you (which is a little odd).

If an enemy Commander used Ready, Aim, Fire! against your ally, then you Intercept 1 attack and Bodyguard the rest.

Now I can't get the idea out of my head of a guardian blocking a shot and dying from it then the guarded individual shrugs off a bunch of damage. How do you describe that, using the dead body for cover?

well the feat IS called "body"guard.

So presumably you can use your body to guard, even when dead.

It's one of the main reasons why I think the Guardian can never truly succeed as a class in PF2e without offering multiple subclasses.

they have subclasses.

Not useful ones, but they exist.

IMO something like.

"When you roll initiative, you gain THP"

Would be a bit better for low levels.

Fast healing at higher levels sounds good though. Maybe at level 20 you just get it permanently, even when unconscious.

Bodyguard is slightly odd in that your ally can walk away and still be protected.

In fact, you can punch the ally, Intercept the strike, push the ally off a cliff and he will resist the fall damage, then run the other way.

Then the ally can stand up, and run past some Jagged Berms, trigger an reactive stike, get attacked by some other creatures.

All while still being protected by you.

It's not cumulative.

Bodyguard effectivly makes the resistance last longer. So if they get hit twice (or more), they are still partially protected.

Note the attack doesn't need to be from the same enemy, nor does your ally need to stay next to you (which is a little odd).

If an enemy Commander used Ready, Aim, Fire! against your ally, then you Intercept 1 attack and Bodyguard the rest.

Granite wears away about 1 inch per 1000 years. So 10,000 years it would of worn away about 1 foot.

So make each line thicker than 1 foot.

Like 10' wide and 5' high, which can only see it clearly from a nearby mountain top.

And you can make terrible puns as you climb over "it" or have an NPC meet them over "there".

If the whiteroom math looks that close in a DPS race, then I'm absolutely happy to say Commander + Big Hitter is a better idea.

how much more damage should 2 barbarians do compared to 1 commander and 1 barb, in your opinion.

It's at 20% now.

Single-target offensive buffs is another forgotten swing of that equation. Runic Weapon will get more value per casting action, ect.

so do debuffs, including focus fire. You needed a Guardian to keep the Barb up.

Not that I have any issues with a party with their own niche working together doing more than a party of well rounded characters doing their own thing.

Being an Int class while a full martial is very good for multiple forms of utility, from skills to spells of any list. Going all-in on dps is not a good plan.

then MAP doesn't matter if your not using your 3rd action to attack.

That leaves the commander with a 2 action "power attack" that will be less than 2 Stikes from whatever their ally is. And less than most 2 action spells.

You lose damage, and gain utility. That's the trade. But if you don't think 20% is enough damage loss, how much?

Commander [b]uniquely enables such utility

That's a good thing.

Commander + Big Hitter pairing is 100% better than 2 Big Hitters.

level 8 Giant Barb

2 barbarians, 1 action flank, 2 attacks
(29 * .5) + (29 * 2 * .2) = 26.1
(29 * .45) + (29 * 2 * .05) = 15.95
= 42.05

Level 8 commander
2d6+4+2 = 13
60% base hit chance, 10% crit.

guiding shot
(13 * .5) + (13 * 2 * .1) = 9.1
Stike hard
+10% chance of 26.1
+ 50% chance of (29 * .5) + (29 * 2 * .15) = 23.2
+ 40% chance of (29 * .5) + (29 * 2 * .10) = 22.33
= 31.43

So
2 barbarians flanking does 84.1
1 commander and 1 barb do 69.71

And it's likely the barbarians will have an extra action here or there while the Commander is short an action here and there.

Feel free to double check the math. But I even picked level 8 so the commander wouldn't be behind in Str.

I do think RAF could be OP in the right party. That's a lot of action.

Maybe limit it to 3 allies to cap the high end, but not affecting your normal party.

The Commander allows an extra Strike beyond and independent of that. Every turn, the Commander gets 1 tactic that does NOT burn a Reaction. Meaning, that Giant Barb can do their own MAP 0 Strike, a MAP 0 AoO, and another MAP 0 Strike via Commander. Every single turn, no spell slots, no focus points.

3 Stikes is less than 2 giant barbs doing 2 MAP 0 Stikes + 2 AoO.

You need to compare 2 characters to 2 characters.

Our Commander #1 even did go Psychic for that amp, thinking it could double up to get around the 1 tactic limit. But the Barb would generally already use Attack of Opportunity, as the Guardian was a Trip machine

right. The Commander needs the extra reaction or it could easily end up useless given all the other ways to grant attack already in the game.

Again, that's how absurdly good Strike Hard is. It's good enough to make what is widely considered a very good focus spell/amp worthless in context.

no. It just means they don't stack with the Trip.

Allegro and Haste don't stack either. It doesn't make one absurdly good.

Because the Commander's 0 MAP was better spent on his 1A Strike, and the given Strike Reaction was more than worth the 2A vs 1A difference.

and the Guardian was spending 1 action+1 Reaction to grant attacks, possibly to multiple allies, while having better armor and hit points.

As said, Marshal's ability to prompt a Reactive Strike is not the same thing.

How is "If you spend 2 actions, that ally can use their reaction to immediately Strike."

Different from

2 actions: "That ally immediately attempts a Strike as a reaction."

Or

"The target of the message can immediately spend its reaction to Step or Stride.
Amp Heightened (4th) The target of the message can choose to Shove, Strike, or Trip with its reaction instead."

Other than the Commander getting it earlier and having a bit more range?

Firstly, try to think about a class that has the ability to spend 2A to make a Strike at MAP 0. No cooldown, flourish, ect. That would be very, very appealing for a lot of PCs. More than that, it would kind of break the very concept of MAP to begin with; instead of a class's budget being invested into tweaking or stretching MAP that has it's own restrictions and safeties like Hunted Shot, this one just overrules MAP outright.

Several classes, like kineticist, summoner, and magus, can do that anyways. Use 2 action for a Dex save, and a 1 action strike with no MAP.

You could also have Wolf Drag or spell that knocking someone prone next to a fighter or someone else with Reaction Attack. At higher levels Mountain Quake can do it as a single action.

Also, Commander's have Int primary. So their Stike is at -1.

The thorns idea is interesting and I like it. My question would be how would you implement it so that it could not be poached by Champions, Fighters, or others via Guardian Dedication?

without Defensive Swap or similar, thorns won't do as much.

But I still see it as a subclass thing. Not everyone will want to play a porcupine.

Tridus wrote:

Lia Wynn wrote:

I would rewrite Guardian Armor to be: When you are in Medium Armor you gain 1+level Resistance to all Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing damage. When wearing Heavy Armor, this becomes 2+level. In addition, you can rest normally in medium or heavy armor.

2+level is an absolutely massive amount of DR to have always on and will drastically swing encounters. Cosmos Oracles get half that and my GM still finds it annoying just how much damage I can stop.

Yes, it is a decent amount of DR. I'm proposing it for a damage-impaired martial class whose role is to take hits for other characters. The real question should be, I would think, why does a caster class, who should be in the back line, need 1+level physical resistance? I don't think Cosmos Oracle is intended to take hits for others. I'm not suggesting taking it away from Cosmos Oracle, but it does fit Guardian's role to have DR that matters. At the moment it does not.

IMO, I would rather have THP instead of damage resistance. It works better against the big bad a bunch of small attacks.

Though maybe you can pick the one you want as a subclass.

Behemoth Guard: you gain THP each turn.
Armor Guard: you gain some THP and some resistance.
Swarm Guard: you gain resistance.

Mellored wrote:

I wasn't suggesting removing Taunt.

I am.

I really hate it as the primary mechanism for a Guardian/bodyguard character from a roleplaying point of view.

I'd be happy for some form of Taunt to be in the game just not on this class.

Right.

Personal I'm leaning towards archetype, as Swashbuckler, Rogue, Fighter, and Bard all seem like they should be able to Taunt as well.

I'm just not sure there's a way to make taunt work that's satisfying for both GMs and players.

To be somewhat fair to Taunt.

Sanctuary is a level 1 spell that can make mindless creatures (not) attack someone. So following the same line...

Taunt, 2 action
Targets 1 creature
If the target attempts to make a hostile action that doesn't include you must attempt a Will save each time. If an ally uses a hostile action the target the Taunt ends. If you use this feature again, the Taunt ends. Once the Taunt ends, the target is immune for 10 minutes.

Critical Success Taunt ends.
Success The creature can attempt its action and any other action this turn.
Failure The creature can't attack the target and wastes the action. It can't attempt further attacks against the target this turn.
Critical Failure The creature wastes the action and can't attempt to attack the target for the rest of Taunts duration.

Still don't want it as a core ability. But something like that would work.

4e Defenders could Mark from a distance (which is what carried the penalty PF2e uses), but had to be adjacent for the punishment,

Well I guess the fighter could, since they marked anyone they attacked. But punishment was still melee attack, and bow fighters didn't have as much support. You would basically multiple class into rogue or something.

Swordmage mark still needed to be close to the enemy, but not adjacent, but it was the only one that lasted more than a turn. Thus allowing using it as some distance.

Paladins mark an adjacent and delt unescapeable damage even if the enemy ran. But you needed to be adjacent to apply it again.

Warden marked all adjacent enemies, had a ranged pull enemies back towards you, as well as a melee attack punishment

Battlemind marked an adjacent and could Step when an marked enemy Step, keeping them adjacent, as well as a melee attack punishment.

I am as Tank main as you can get, I Tank main in any game that offers it as an option (WoW, SWTOR, FFXIV, Overwatch, Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition, Lancer, etc.)

Taunt in MMO's forced enemies to attack because that's the way the bots worked. You couldn't have "if the bot attacks an ally..." as a mechanism.

There is no Taunt in Overwatch. Again, doesn't work in PvP.

All the 4e defenders, except the Swordmage, required you to be adjacent + some punishment if the enemy attacked an ally. Swordmage a bit like PF2 Champion with ranged damage reduction, which doesn't have a Taunt either.

To be clear. I wasn't suggesting removing Taunt. So you could still bang on your shield to attract attention you can take that feat (subclass?). But I don't see it's a core option.

Then just give it stuff to help lock enemies near it - grapple/trip bonuses, a reworked hampering sweeps, etc. - and it should gel together.

Unsure where intercept fits in this, it would probably need a different reaction.

IMO

I.e

Theat technique
Ferocious Vengeance: reaction
Trigger: when an enemy within reach makes a hostile action that does not include you.
Make a melee Strike against it immediately after.

Mitigate Harm: reaction
Trigger: when an enemy within reach makes a hostile action that does not include you.
Reduce the damage it deals by 2+your level.

That solves the positioning issue, as you just want to be next to the biggest enemy on the field.
And that provides a nice counter point to the Champion which has abilities that act on allies.

Obviously there's room for a few "ally" feats (Bodyguard) . But yea. Focus on enemies.

Lightning Raven wrote:

Am I alone in this?

Nope. I'm not seeing many/any voices saying the Gaurdian is in a good state.

agreed.

However, I want to put in my support for the idea of a Gardian in general.

We could use an non-magic alternative to the Champion.

I guess Step + 3x Stide distance would be good at running away.

Tweaked.

Ready Movement, 1 action
Step or Escape, and then increase your next movement towards an ally before the start of your next turn by by 10'.

Mellored wrote:

It let's you overcome the armor penalty and expand your intercept range, but not really be useful for running away.

And it keeps the trade-off with one that makes you tankier but immobilize.
The THP amount and name is take from the kinetisist Timber Sentinel.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4284

I feel like this would be perfect for running away. 1 Action to get 2 actions worth of "movement" and a speed boost, giving any subsequent Stride action far more value.

It's the same distance as taking 3 stride actions.

But I'm sure it thing could be tweaked. Main point is that you can have mobile and stationary options while still having Str and heavy armor.

An ability that lets you Stride towards an ally, and if you end your movement adjacent to that ally you grant them and yourself temp hp.

sure.

Mellored wrote:

It says "you take the damage".

You do not become "the target" or "take the hit".

So best as i can read it, all non-damage effects stay with the original target.

That makes mechanical sense in terms of strict mechanics as they are written right now.

Its is an odd interaction though and probably shouldn't stay that way for the final version of intercept strike.

It's even more odd when you line up 5 Gardians, they each Intercept, and transfer the damage 25'.

And yea. I hope it changes.

It says "you take the damage".
You do not become "the target" or "take the hit".

So best as i can read it, all non-damage effects stay with the original target.

The main reason why I think its so powerful is (mainly) because, if you are faster than an enemy by even 5 feet and run away from him, he has to spend 2 actions to get to you,

while you only need to spend one. In that case its just a straight up action economy win.

IMO, if the guardian is running away, there are other issues with the class.

Mellored wrote:

Examples

Ready Movement, 1 action
Step or Escape, and then increase your Speed by 10' until the start of your next turn.

And

Timber Sentinel, 1, 2 or 3 actions.
You gain temporary hit points equal to 2, 4, or 6

This is about whether its a good idea to have a "You dont take the speed penalty of heavy armor" feat and how much a flat +5 on your speed is worth, no?

It let's you overcome the armor penalty and expand your intercept range, but not really be useful for running away.

And it keeps the trade-off with one that makes you tankier but immobilize.
The THP amount and name is take from the kinetisist Timber Sentinel.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4284

Intercept Rail Gun

Line up a bunch of Guardians and one ally. Attack the ally with dagger.
The ally takes damage and the first Gardian uses Intercept Stike.

Now that he is taking physical damage, the next one in line can use Intercept Strike.

Repeat until the dagger is moving at relativistic speeds.

I want the heavily Armored high AC Guardian to feel slow but powerful, and I want the fast "All around the battlefield" Guardian to feel a little squishier by comparison

Not sure why you can't get that though feat choices.

"Fleet" is one of, if not the best general feat.

Not sure I agree, but I can nerf it a bit.

Examples

Ready Movement, 1 action
Step or Escape, and then increase your Speed by 10' until the start of your next turn.

And

Timber Sentinel, 1, 2 or 3 actions.
You gain temporary hit points equal to 2, 4, or 6 times your level depending on the actions spent. These last until you move. If an adjacent ally takes physical damage, apply it to these temporary hit points first.

Isn't it bizarre that in the same playtest one class has feats that allow them to fit into the other's area of ​​expertise?

no. Plenty of classes have overlapping options. Even the offensive Gunslinger has Deflecting Shot to protect an ally.

It's what Yuri said.

this is not a criticism to commander, but to guardian that IMO is currently failing in protecting its allies and itself.

What do temp HP represent in this game?

We see it as a mechanic but thematically is it supernatural in nature?

"Hit Point value represents your health, wherewithal, and heroic drive".

So temporary wherewithal and heroic drive. I also imagine bracing for impact.

... can shields have Temporary hit points?

anytime the Guardian loses HP(but not temp HP) from a taunted target they get an equal amount of temp HP.

That kind of makes Taunt less effective, since the enemy will be dealing half damage to you.

Maybe if you could shared the THP with your allies as well.

having powerful abilities like sweeping strikes cost or require you have temp HP

also a cool idea.

I could definitely see the guardian generating and spending THP like the Swashbuckler generates panache.

How about...

Whenever an ally takes damage, you gain THP equal to half the damage delt.
Reminder that THP does not stack.

And then stuff like.

When you Stike, you expend your THP to add that amount to your damage roll.

Mellored wrote:

I suppose if you want it to be like concealment, you could use a flat check.

What issue would you try to solve with that? In other words: What would be the benefit of that over a normal check, would you say?

it works the same no matter what level the opponent is.

Mellored wrote:

The speed penalty for armor you are wearing is reduced by 5'.

Mmm, personally I am not the biggest fan of that tbh. The speed reduction of heavy armor is one of its main trade-offs. And I generally like having trade-offs in my games. It leads to more unique characters and more interesting gameplay choices.

The trade-off is spending a feat.

Edit: This feat would also become a must-take for the Dex-based subclass I'd imagine.

Do you find Fleet to be a must-take feat? Because it's a lot more accessible.

Armored Concealment 1 Action, Stance
Allies adjacent to you are Concealed.

This would make succeeding that roll against higher level creatures disproportionately harder and do the opposite for lower level creatures.

that's true for any roll. Simply having it retarget you will work on any level.

I suppose if you want it to be like concealment, you could use a flat check.

firstly, I don't want to punish Guardians who invest into non-heavy armor for extra move speed

Armored Mobility, level 1 feat.

Bluemagetim wrote:

What this version of intercept roll against and what bonuses are used for it?

I would make your roll against the relevant offensive modifier, so for example vs 10 + attack modifier for attacks, or vs Spell DC for spells.

You would use your Class DC but as a modifier (So your Class DC - 10) and would let you add your armors item bonus (Because Class DCs usually don't get item bonuses). So in short:

Class DC - 10 + armor potency bonus.

I know its cumbersome to define this in the effect itself, which is why I would define this in the keyword section. I would also use this "Class Modifier" for other effects too (I am surprised that no other classes use something like this yet, seems like a missed opportunity).

what if the DC was the attack roll?

Still not much in favor of double rolling, but at least this way your not redoing a previous roll.

Perhaps also use your AC as the bonus.

AC-10+d20 vs Attack Roll or effect DC.

I think Guardians personally should get 0 moment penalty for wearing Heavy Armor myself.

I could see that as a feat.

Also maybe a "Step 10' when you roll initiative" feat.

Mellored wrote:

I.e.
Hit the enemy and the Cleric heals for 50
Vs
Hit the enemy and tbe Guardian Intercepts for 50

Both reduce the effectiveness of focus fire. And healing doesn't have a save.
Neither does Protector Tree for that matter.

Those aren't directly comparable tho imo. Both mechanically and in theme.

They shouldn't be the same mechanics or theme.

But at the end of the day, they should add up to about the same amount. (Obviously with some variety depending on the enemies and rolls).

Personally I feel like making it a roll would make using the ability more exciting though

Maybe if the difference between Success and Failure where larger.

I.e.
Critical Success: The Stike fails to hit anyone.
Success: the Stike targets you and you gain resistance to it.
Failure: the Stike still targets your ally, but you split the damage.
Critical Failure: you fall prone.

Brace for Impact, 1 action.
You position yourself in order to absorb the next blow. Gain temporary hit points equal to twice your level that last until the stat of your next turn. While you have them, you reduce forced movement by 5'.

Maybe instead of resistance, they got THP?

Guardian Resolve
At the start of your turn, you gain temporary hit points equal to your level

Timber Sentinel Stance, 2 actions, stance
You gain 5 temporary hit points per level that last until the stance ends.
When an adjacent ally takes damage, they can treat these temporary hit points as if they had them.
This stance ends if you move, or the temporary hit points are depleted.

*could use another name.

It might just be very annoying to play against. This also matters less because its the players who use it, but while you shouldn't try to kill your players as a GM, there is still fun in trying to challenge them and make them a little scared every now and then. So while it matters less, how an ability feels to play against as a GM should still matter a little.

the guardian should add as much survivability as a cleric.

I.e.
Hit the enemy and the Cleric heals for 50
Vs
Hit the enemy and tbe Guardian Intercepts for 50

Both reduce the effectiveness of focus fire. And healing doesn't have a save.
Neither does Protector Tree for that matter.

In a standard party with 4 PC's it's common to have only 2 melee characters, and the Guardian will be one of them. If you want to intercept you give up on flanking. Guardian already does little damage, no need to make it more difficult for the rest of the party to do damage.

So, how about adding making an opponent off-guard when intercepting? After all, you give up flanking and the Guardian bulldozes itself between their ally so that would make sense narratively.

IMO, have a reaction that triggers of an adjacent enemy not attacking you. Maybe Reposition them.

But there is still room for a reverse Gang Up feat.

pU ganG
You and your allies harry an opponent in concert. Any enemy is flat-footed against your allies melee attacks due to flanking as long as the enemy is within both your reach and your ally’s. You must still flank an enemy for it to be flat-footed to you.

I mean, if there was a feat

Roll for Bonus, 1 action
Make an roll and gain a bonus on your next basic Strike you make this turn.
Critical Success: +3
Success: +2
Failure: +1
Critical Failure: no effect

Vs

Sniper's Aim, 2 actions
Make a Stike with a +2 bonus

I think his criticism was regarding "Intercept" requiring a check. If I understood his point correctly, his concern is that having to make one check before resolving the other check might slow down or disrupt combat.

That is my main complaint.

Champions don't need to roll for their reaction. No one is sad about that.

Mellored wrote:

If you are going to make Taunted a condition, then it should be a basic action anyone can do.

And I don't see how a Guardian would do it better than a Bard or Swashbuckler.

Agreed

Mellored wrote:

IMO

Remove Taunt as a core feature (could keep it as a feat).

Replace with Titan Wrestler, scaling Athletics, and some kind of Immobilize / Trip / Grapple / Disarm.

I.e.

Contain Foes
You make it difficult for enemies to move away from you once they have gotten close. Until the beginning of your next turn or until you move, whichever comes first, foes within reach of the weapon you are wielding or your unarmed attack can’t use move actions to move outside of the reach of your weapon or unarmed attack unless they succeed in an Escape action against your Athletics DF.

Athletics in itself is not enough to justify a new class as we have so many athletics classes as it is. This stickiness is interesting though.

Well it could be an Escape against your class DC.

But I still kind of feel like all the athletic maneuvers would fit really well with the guardian, and having it scales will let all the class feats interact with them (i.e. Flying Tackel)

Agree resistance would be a nice core feature.

Don't think we need all the different ability scores though. Str allows for starting in Full Plate, which i think should be the default.

You could still use those subclass ideas without modifying the key score.

Though, if your doing recall knowledge, you should learn about the enemies attacks, not their defense. Knowing a dragon's breath is Reflex instead of Fortitude would (or should) be more useful.

I find it weird how, in the original guardian, this has a very impactful ability and "absolute" ability had no check associated with it, while the ability that is just a debuff has. I feel like it should be the other way around. So I added a check.

can't say I like interrupting a roll to make a roll to see what penalty you need to subtract from a roll.

I do agree Tackel Ally should be the default Intercept. But not with that name.

Otherwise I like the suggestions and agree with the overall direction.

Contain Foes, Stance
Requirement: An adjacent enemy
You make it difficult for enemies to move away from you once they have gotten close. You and each adjacent enemy are Immobilized. Affected creatures can make an Escape check to end this stance.

(Replacement for Taunt).

If your going to make Tauntes a condition, then it should be a basic action anyone can do.

And I don't see how a Guardian would do it better than a Bard or Swashbuckler.

IMO
Remove Taunt as a core feature (could keep it as a feat).

Replace with Titan Wrestler, scaling Athletics, and some kind of Immobilize / Trip / Grapple / Disarm.

I.e.

Contain Foes
You make it difficult for enemies to move away from you once they have gotten close. Until the beginning of your next turn or until you move, whichever comes first, foes within reach of the weapon you are wielding or your unarmed attack can’t use move actions to move outside of the reach of your weapon or unarmed attack unless they succeed in an Escape action against your Athletics DF.

I expect most players will have Bulwark to help a bit.

But it's still behind. Yes.

Alternatively

Guardian Training
The first time on each of your turns that you attempt Trip, Grapple, Reposition, Disarm, or Shove, it does not increase MAP.