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** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin 1,152 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 20 Organized Play characters.


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Cheshire Grins wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean drop Haunting Hymn for Animated Assault since Haunting Hymn is a cantrip. I liked HH as an multi-target cantrip but daze probably is better just for the stun even if it's only on an unlikely crit fail.

Sorry, Haunting Hymn provides you an AoE damage spell early on which is mostly useful for targeting weakness when it comes up or maybe fighting a bunch of clustered lower level enemies -- but these situations aren't so common generally that Hymn ever really works out being a better option than just Telekinetic Projectile something, or doing a Bon-Mot Daze. So I was suggesting keeping the cantrip until you can get a different AoE (Animated Assault being the first on your short list, though Concordant Choir is also a very flexible option) and rely on that for those situations. This would free up your cantrip for Daze or ... anything else? I just think in practice you're going to have a mostly dead cantrip slot in Haunting Hymn.

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Your list looks really close to what I'd recommend.

I'd drop Haunting Hymn in favor of Animated Assault once you can get it. It's more reliable AoE damage and the sustain aspect also creates area denial. I've kept it running just to dissuade enemies / force weird movement from them. Daze is more reliably useful with it's range and combos with your Bon Mot and your allies Intimidate.

If you're going to do Animate Dead you need to make it Signature and expect it to come from your top slots to remain relevant. There are some pretty good undead options these days for utility, but you'll still need higher slots. I'd probably avoid this or lean into it heavier.

I probably wouldn't start running Dispel Magic until level 3+. It may come up beforehand but you really want it in your top or second highest level spell slots anyway and magic effects you need to counteract aren't all that common in the 4-5 range.

Rouse Skeletons and Animated Assault are competing in functions (minor AoE with passive area denial/control targeting Reflex). Probably pick one or the other.

It's not always the best plan, but I like to make sure I have a Reflex, Fort, and Will save targeting options in my top level or signature slots. Slow is obviously your best Fortitude option, Animated Assault/Rouse Skeletons is your Reflex... you're lacking a strong Will target spell. Consider Roaring Applause: it's a will spell which will sync with your Bon Mot and Intimidate, gives you a sustain option, and which can create slowed 1. If your Barbarian takes AoO it's even better.

I'd hold off on Shadow Projectile until you move up in spell levels. It's fine to dump on lower level slots but when you first hit 3, there's more potent / powerful things you can be doing. Time Jump has a lot of utility to be able to position better. It's definitely something you'll want to consider having at some point.

Edit: You may want to look at the Spell Trickster archetype instead of Pistol Phenom. A lot of your spell choices merge into it with Summon Ensemble giving you another Performance based debuff potential using your cantrip choice. Forceful Push and/or Larcenous Hand let you make that Mage Hand more useful. Siphoning Touch with Reach Spell could also be a great combo for adding temp HP to your Barbarian or Gunslinger friend in a pinch.

Cordell Kintner wrote:
The better question however is why.

If you have to ask this question, this rune wasn't meant for you. It's amazing that it's only level 2.

2/5 *** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin

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I think having a second version of the scenario with different AcP would be an elegant and very thoughtful way to handle this.

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
How does the druidic prohibition against metal armor and shields interact with armors and shields that are primarily made of a non-metal but have metal components like the studs of a studded leather armor, the mail undershirt of an armored coat (both are classed as part of the Leather category) or a wooden shield with a metal shield boss or shield spikes?

For simplicity, I've always used the armor category. It's the cleanest mechanically. Nothing prohibits a druid from having metal on their person at all (e.g. tools) so I just decided that if it's mentioned as primarily leather or wood, it's good to go.

2/5 *** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin

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For what it's worth, we're facing a similar issue in Austin. Our primary local game store only stays open later on nights when Magic has tournaments, which provides a bit of flexibility but it messes with our usual schedule a lot.

If anything, this might help make a strong case for some higher level quests going forward too: maybe breaking some of these arcs into two parts each worth 2 xp.

Okay, so a few options.

The Blessed One dedication would give you lay on hands. This would help offset your slightly lower divine font and also give you a secondary use for your focus point when Death domain isn't relevant or prudent. You could just focus on cleric feats after that or keep boosting your lay on hands.

The Medic archetype can help boost your focus on non-spell healing, boosting your medicine proficiency and offering faster ways to get people up with Battle Medicine. This leaves you more flexibility to choose non-support spells. A nice feature of this archetype is that you can be done with it and move into other archetypes quite quickly since it has Skill feats.

Soul Warden is a specific archetype for Pharasmins. It'll focus heavily on stopping undead (which you're probably already pretty good at without the archetype) but it might be of interest.

For Druid, there will only be a bit of overlap with your Divine list -- mostly in the restorative side of things. You'll gain access to a lot of useful utility. For example, you could use the level 2 primal spell to cast heightened Longstrider giving you a significant movement speed boost all day. The divine list doesn't really give you ways to solve 'worldly' problems often, but primal gives you that even if you only have one spell per slot until you pick up the later feats.

For example:
Level 1 -
Gust of Wind: always relevant to blow away hazards or flying creatures
Pest Form: useful scouting utility
Jump: Quick maneuver or bypass hazard

Level 2 -
Longstrider: 8 hours of a good movement speed buff
Enlarge: Useful for some front liners (talk to your party)
Loose Time's Arrow: Mini haste for a round for the party
Spider Climb: Climb speeds can get you and your party around hazards

Level 3 -
Earthbind: Bring flying creatures down for melee to engage
Haste/Slow: Amazing spells
Wall of Thorns: Helps control the battlefield

As a bonus, it's wisdom based for you so your DC's won't be terrible even as the spell levels lag behind. You could use the cantrips granted to pick up some additional attack cantrips that Divine lacks (Electric Arc, Scatter Scree, Produce Flame, Ray of Frost, etc) to let you target reflex and / or more easily trigger elemental vulnerabilities.

You can also pick up a Druid focus power to offset your Death domain instead of grabbing Time or something else. Leaf order may be the most thematic, and it's focus power are also restorative (Goodberry) so it'd be a bit like grabbing the Blessed One dedication, except at level 4. The Stone or Storm orders might help you debuff opponents for your front line.

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
How did I miss sound burst on my cleric and bard? It seems so much better than concordant choir.

I personally think Concordant Choir is better for a few reasons:

1) Flexibility. 1, 2, or 3 action casts in a single spell is situationally useful.
2) Consistency. 4d4 (AVG 10) vs. 2d10 (AVG 11) is mostly equivalent on average but also has a better floor. I personally prefer more smaller dice even if the upper limit is lower (16 vs 20) since you're probably multiplying that by multiply opponents anyway.
3) No deafened effect. This can be valuable if you're trying to follow up with spells like Command or any other Sonic or Auditory ability.

But ultimately they sit in a repertoire about the same. Given the flexibility on Concordant Choir it's probably stronger a signature spell for a spontaneous caster.

Welcome to PF2. For some advice: don't stress too much about optimization. Your base class handles most of that for you with being a full divine caster. If you've maxed wisdom, you'll be able to cast spells offensively just as well as anyone else. Your 12 charisma will give you two top level heals per day -- probably for emergencies especially if you're leaning into medicine for out of combat healing. Nothing stops you from preparing additional heals too.

Spell choice will be the biggest thing to drive your build (probably more than feats). The divine list isn't super diverse, but you do have some decent options to do what you're trying to do with Fear, Agonizing Despair, and Phantasmal Killer (thanks to Pharasma). Calm Emotiions is also quite strong as a debuff if you have good initiative (clerics generally do with high initiative) and if you keep it in your top slot.

Those all focus on Will saves, so you'll want some backup spells known to target other saves if you want to be more of a debuffer. Concordant Choir is a very flexible variable action sonic damage spell which targets fortitude. If you can't use that spell or want to restrict yourself to Core, Sound Burst also works. It's not sexy, but until your party gets striking runes, Magic Weapon is probably the biggest heavy hitter especially if you're going against something immune to mind affecting and not undead.

At 1st level: Fear and Magic Weapon + 2 Heal spells is a pretty decent arsenal to bring.

As a cloistered cleric, you're probably going to be a little easier to hit so may want to stay at range. Death's Call may not see quite as much value for you since you need to be within 20 feet. That said, of Pharasma's domain that's a pretty strong pick. You may want to look at grabbing Expanded Domain Initiate at level 4 and pick up the Time Domain. The focus spell is a very powerful reaction (something you probably lack) which will help you maximize your heal spells. It's sort of another way to achieve what you were trying to do with Death's Call.

Otherwise, I'd definitely recommend looking at some archetypes. Don't be afraid to diversify. Rogue Dedication can be a simple addition that'll make it easier for you to wear armor, get you extra skill trainings, and additional skill feats. Druid can work if you want additional spells. If you tell us more about your concept and what you want to do, we may be able to help suggest others.

2/5 *** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin

Oh I'll be there too. If you're running anything, let me know!

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Mer_ wrote:

Yeah but now that you are not your own ally can you hit yourself for 1d4 with the second strike of a flurry to target yourself with a spell storing weapon?

It's not good, but it's certainly shenanigans.

You could do that anyway, regardless of whether or not you're on own ally. Spell Storing only cares that you hit a creature.

2/5 *** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin

It is notably inconsistent. I would expect that Community Knowledge was deemed too good for a level 1 ancestry feat, then Nanite Surge would need to be as well. Though admittedly because so many Android Feats key off of Nanite Surge, that may have been trickier to remove. That's all speculation though. I have no insight into why this wasn't allowed.

Since you're primal (elemental), I'm here to plug Geomancer if you want to unlock a kind of fun playstyle. The dedication and fourth level feat to enter any 'terrain' gives you a way to uniquely metamagic a lot of your spells.

I run a Halfling Fire Elemental sorcerer. Fire / Desert is my default, but I've selected my spells known to ensure I have a way to capitalize on earth, water, air spell effects too. I've grabbed a Verdant Staff, which with spontaneous casting allows me to cast plant spells from my staff too, so I can take advantage of the plant based terrains.

A default attack routine for me is to cast Elemental Toss (Fire), enter a Desert Attunement, and then throw a Fire Spell with a rider effect of debuffing everyone hit by it all in round one. There are other builds you can do by leaning into your selected element. An earth based one could have you casting earth spells and shifting your attunement benefit to give temp HP to others.

You have to be clever with your spell selection but it can really do some cool stuff if you lean into it. Secrets of Magic and some of the newer books have added a lot of dual-element spells which really makes this shine.

Depending on how tied you are to magic thematically, mechanically you may want to look at Inventor. It grants you explicitly non-magical ways to achieve many of the effects you're looking to create. You could make your shield or armor into your innovation when you choose the dedication at 2. From there you have a few options.

If you choose armor, you could grab Explosive Leap at 4 with Basic Innovation which would replicate Dimensional Assault, allowing you to leap around combat once per fight. You could give your armor the Otherworldly Protection or Muscular Exoskeleton modifications at 8 depending on how you were feeling or grab another Inventor feat like Megaton Strike, Gadget Specialist, or Searing Restoration.

If you chose weapon, Haphazard Repair would let you quickly repair your shield if you chose to make that your weapon innovation, admittedly only with a free hand though. Alternatively grab the same Explosive Leap as above. At 8 you could give it Entangling Form by grabbing Basic Modification, giving your shield the grapple and trip traits which pairs nicely with your use of aggressive block and allowing you to do all three main maneuvers with your shield.

Brilliant Crafter at level 6 would grant you expert crafting and then master when you hit 7, allowing you to diversify your skills. If you went with the armor innovation, that Muscular Exoskeleton at 8 would be granting you a +2 circumstance to all your shoves with your shield.

SuperBidi wrote:

I agree with Gortle. I've mostly played Divine casters (my main and 4th characters are ones) and the spell list is more interesting than it looks like at first glance. It's also true that nearly all divine casters can add a bunch of spells from other traditions (only Summoners and Witches can't).

Switching from Divine to Primal is obviously a strong change in terms of available spells but not one that will imbalance the game. I'd just bar Divine Access from the available feats as it's obviously related to Divine but also because Primal casters are not supposed to cherry pick spells from other traditions.

I agree that allowing the swap from divine to primal probably won't break the game, but the rational you're providing isn't backed up at all by the actual game. There's no hidden rule stating that "primal casters shouldn't be able to get spells from other lists." Every single primal class has built in ways to access it even before you get into archetypes like the Magaambyan Attendant and Halcyon Speaker.

Primal witches can grab spells from several lists via Lessons.
Primal sorcerers can get them from their bloodline (notably Fey/Nymph get a lot of arcane/occult spells) or from the Crossblooded Evolution feat.
Druids can accessa handful of illusions the via a level 8 feat.
Primal summoners can access illusions and enchantments with a Fey Eidolon.

So I don't really think it's fair to say that Primal isn't meant to go cross-tradition.

To the OP: An alternative approach would be to simply give your players the cleric ability to worship a deity and access their spells natively without needing to take Divine Access. This avoids the wholesale spell list swap. Oracles could still benefit from Divine Access by getting access to a second deity. Entirely homeruled, but it's a shorter throw and potentially less unbalancing.

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SuperBidi wrote:
I'm fully aware it's against RAI, but around tables like PFS ones where RAW is applied strictly it is the actual meaning of the rule.

PFS GMs GM's are empowered to use their discretion in the face of: "Unclear rules, or situations or player actions not covered by the rules." They are no robots bound to individual player interpretation of "RAW." In fact, you'll find no such phrasing in any PFS guidance for PF2.

If you came to me with this argument I would kindly tell you you're mistaken and move on with the game based on the fact that it doesn't make sense in the context of any other hunt prey or ranger edge ability. It's too good to be true and the simplest interpretation is that the language is a little weird.

You could, if you so chose, contest that ruling even as you've admitted your reading almost certainly isn't intended, and I'd just refer you up to another Venture officer who is probably going to agree that your reading doesn't make sense in the context of every other hunt prey ability.

2/5 *** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin

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There's another 7-10 coming out next month.

It's also worth pointing out that the PFS devs have put a much higher focus on repeatable content in PF2 than they did in PF1. So much so that it's entirely possible to make an infinite number of characters and get them to level 5-6. I wouldn't necessarily recommend following this path exactly every time as it's not practical in many cases and you may not want to do the same scenarios over and over. But it does help with allowing play even when you're waiting to play one of your higher level characters.

Level 1:
Beginner's Box 1
Beginner's Box 2
Pathfinder Trials (1)

Level 2:
Intro 1: Second Confirmation (1-2)
Intro 2: United in Purpose (1-2)
Absalom Initiation (1-4)

Level 3:
Lions of Katapesh (1-4)
Tarnbreaker's Trail (1-4)
Lost on the Spirit Road (1-4)

Level 4:
Intro Season 3 (1-4)
Intro Season 4 (1-4)
Any random non-repeatable

Level 5:
Star Crossed Court (3-6)
Crashing Waves (3-6)
Guardians Covenant (3-6)

Level 6:
A Most Wondrous Exchange! (5-8, coming out Dec 2022)

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I think it's great that psychic adds options to players - that the dedication is competitive with others. But I don't think it's actually so good that it's a 'must-have' or 'game breaker.' If anything I'd like to see more multiclass dedications offer a bit more earlier.

Bard buffing was already available from the Bard dedication. Admittedly it comes online at 8, but amped guidance takes a reaction and a focus point.

A magus with psychic dedication doesn't get the psychic's ability to regain 2 points back between fights so a magus using these tricks isn't using their conflux spells. So yes, they can true strike nova once but they aren't using any of their other abilities.

2/5 *** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin

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There were a handful of boons on PF1 chronicles marked 'Legacy' with the intent that they would potentially play forward. I can think of only one so far that was actually employed. But it's entirely possible we'll see others come into play as Season 3 was much more related to the Society's past and who knows what Season 4 will bring.

2/5 *** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin

For what it's worth, the faction boons are relatively minor. They played a much larger role in season 1 but the last few seasons have placed significantly less emphasis on them. They can add a few unique options but you can reasonably ignore most of it.

That said, keep an eye out for the free Wayfinder boon (not to be confused with the one that costs AcP) when you hit a specific level of reputation.

The amount of healing doesn't really scale up from a single mutagen, but do note that at level 7 when Perpetual Alchemy comes online this does then translate to nearly infinite out of combat healing at the rate of 1d6 hp per round (for Mutagenists anyway).

That isn't to say that's necessarily worth it, but it's not nothing.

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Obligatory posting of the General Ambiguous Rules Clause:

Ambiguous Rules wrote:
Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.

We can probably argue until we're blue in the face but it's really going to come down to individual GMs adjudicating what makes sense at their table.

I look at the touch spells which explicitly had all of their errant attack traits removed in errata as a specific design choice to note that accuracy is not required for their delivery and that their adjudication is handled via the saving throw only. Given the divergence in how Shocking Grasp is handled vs. Vampiric Touch I'm inclined to argue that the specific spell mechanics (spell attack roll vs. saving throw) tell us how to adjudicate the interaction even if it isn't entirely satisfying from a simulationist perspective that two things which might narratively look similar (i.e. reaching out and touching someone to deliver a negative effect) don't behave the same way.

Mirror Image seems explicitly designed to confound accuracy. If we use the more general form of 'any attack' can trigger an image then Mirror Image goes from a powerful short term deterrent to physical attacks to a supercharged form of decaying concealment where flat checks can negate all kinds of attacks. That feels like a blanket level of protection that tracks more with how the spell worked in 1e than how spells more generally function in 2e with limited but powerful scope of effects.

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keftiu wrote:
The 1e Archetype that let your eyeballs fly out of your head seemed fun.

Can confirm. I had an Eyebiter Mesmerist in 1e which I played to level 13.

Do note that many canonical powers of a nymph naturally won't be available to any class in the extreme until later levels. That said, tree shape is a level 2 primal spell available to any primal caster so there's lots of options here. The primal list generally is going to give you that plant manipulation feel. Tanglefoot seems like a default choice for a cantrip. Lose the Path and Protector Tree are good thematic 1st level options. Entangle, Tree Shape, Barkskin, all become available at 2nd level spells. Wall of Thorns and Soothing Blossoms at 3rd, Murderous Vine at 4th, etc.

Leaf Order Druid is the most obvious pick emphasizing plant spells and magic. The familiar and Goodberry order spell set the leaf druid up to do the primary things you're looking for. At level 8 she could pick up Fey Caller to add some more fey like magic to spells available. She can also expand into the Wild Order or just pick up the Plant Shape feat later to also be able to turn into plants.

The Fey and Nymph sorcerer bloodlines also grant a full primal spellcaster with fey flavor. You could make these the primary class or perhaps select the Nymph bloodline on your Plant Druid as a multiclass dedication. This path emphasizes more of the charismatic nature of the fey while still having all the magical access a Druid would have.

A third direction you could take this is a Summoner with a Fey eidolon themed after a nymph or a Plant eidolon themed as a companion to the Summoner who is a bit more 'druid/nymph-like'. This will be more mechanically complex so may not be a good first choice but definitely a way to capture some of what she's looking for especially if she wants a companion to be a part of the fiction.

I think these are duplicative abilities and probably shouldn't stack based on the general rules about duplicate abilities. If you have two sources of darkvision, you don't get extra darkvision.

Duplicate Effects wrote:
When you’re affected by the same thing multiple times, only one instance applies, using the higher level of the effects, or the newer effect if the two are the same level. For example, if you were using mage armor and then cast it again, you’d still benefit from only one casting of that spell. Casting a spell again on the same target might get you a better duration or effect if it were cast at a higher level the second time, but otherwise doing so gives you no advantage.

The advantage of feats and abilities like this is that it lets you do something else with your exploration activity while still watching out for threats, not double down and effectively get extra rolls.

The Chronocognizance skill feat from the Time Mage archetype requires master in Perception. The dedication is clearly designed for spell casters but almost no spellcasters can qualify for that feat without Canny Acumen and being level 17 or are a bard. The only classes which naturally can reach Master perception are generally spell-less martials.

It seems like Master may be a mistake and expert would be more appropriate.

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I've debated whether or not to say this, but you asked for feedback.

I'm not going to read your guide. It might be okay, but it seems impossible that you'd have any relevant actual play experience with a class that was released less than 24 hours ago.

I hope that it's good, but honestly, I'd encourage you to take this post down and let this percolate a bit -- maybe play the class and offer first hand experiences or spend time discussing with others to consolidate their experiences rather than rush to be the first one with your name of the cover.

2/5 *** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin

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Nefreet wrote:
cavernshark wrote:
Anything run in adventure mode is the wild west. As it stands, you could give out a chronicle to a player for attending a table read of the book and it's legal.

Mark is asking about PFS2's Adventure Mode, not PFS1's Campaign Mode.

Running Adventure Mode requires the game to be "Recognizably Pathfinder":

Part of the reason for changing from Campaign Mode to Adventure mode was to streamline the rules and make some major changes. But part of the reason for it was also to eliminate a lot of baggage campaign mode had acquired over the years.
(entire quote available through the link)

I'm fully aware that we're talking about (2e Adventure Mode). What I incorrectly assumed was obvious sarcasm aside, the ironic thing here is I'm advocating not adding a bunch of baggage to Adventure Mode by making arbitrary decisions about participation requirements.

2/5 *** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin

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Mark Stratton wrote:
I think NielsenE's suggestion works the best. I was just looking to see if there was actually something official, and it appears there isn't. But, I might suggest that language addressing adventures and APs be added in a future draft (or, in the current language where it talks about scenarios, just add ", adventures, and adventure paths" to it (or whatever the appropriate language might be.

Do we really need that though? Anything run in adventure mode is the wild west. As it stands, you could give out a chronicle to a player for attending a table read of the book and it's legal. I'd just be upfront with your players about what the criteria is for your tables.

During the pandemic, I started running some APs for our lodge in an abridged format more amenable to PFS session blocks. To keep it inclusive, I asked that anyone who signed up try to attend future sessions of the book but also said that a single session was all that was necessary so long as their was a good faith attempt to play through. I expected some amount of session to session turnover.

None of that actually manifested and I haven't had to use it, but I'm still glad I *could* give out a chronicle to whomever supported the table in some capacity. I like that it's at the GM's discretion. As it stands the effort to play through even a shortened AP is 2-3x the amount of XP/Gold/Rep you'd get in return.

Probably for the same reason that a skeleton can still taste food and drink even as it doesn't need it, can smell without a nose, can touch without skin or nerves, and hear without the apparatus necessary to convert sound into information.

If you really want to walk the logic of "they don't have eyes so they should have darkvision" to it's logical conclusion, I think you'll find most narrative sensory experience totally useless for skeletons. It's still a game, not a perfect simulation.

2/5 *** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin

If I understand your question correctly, this is the official answer:

Resource Rules for family or home groups wrote:
Family members, significant others, or other members of the same household (such as roommates) can share resources if they are playing at the same table, rather than requiring a separate copy of the same book for each person. A group of friends that always plays together at the same table fulfills this requirement, as long as all the necessary materials for each character's options are present. Members playing at separate tables must each supply their own materials as normal.

PF2 Character Options Page

So if you, the GM, own a book and always play with the same people at a home game, they can use that as a legal source for character building. But if they try to take those characters elsewhere, like a convention or another lodge, each player will need the source.

I think it's fair to assume that there's always a chance that more ancestry feats get added for various ancestries. But as for a focused product that does that explicitly... I probably wouldn't hold out too much hope. Something like Gnoll could maybe show up in the Impossible Lands book.

I think it's best to temper expectations a bit. If you have the flexibility, see if your GM would be okay granting you adopted ancestry and access to some other more generic feats from Human or something.

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Y'all, they may not have gotten to everything, but there's a lot of good clarifications in this. I'm thankful we got this and am not really upset about any of it. So thank you to the team.

Big standouts for me are the clarification on Strikes vs. attacks in battle forms and the addition of ranged unarmed strikes for Sneak Attack.

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We can argue back and forth until we're blue in the face about whether killing a devil in these particular circumstances was murder or not. You've got more authority in your position in your campaign as the GM than I do as an observer and it's certainly an in-between space.

But the fact that you didn't given your player an opportunity to explain themselves and then clearly let them know does give me pause. Personally, I'd give them a pass on this one with a stern warning -- not because the act itself was okay but because the handling of it was a little off. I'd communicate with the player that you feel this act should have warranted falling and that in the future you'll try to be more upfront when a situation like this occurs.

(Random aside: I'm not making the case that anyone evil deserves to die, but rather that fiends in particular are literally made up of alignment stuff. They are the embodiment of evil in Golarion. So the fact that this is a fiend is what makes this case exceptional to me and which mitigates a lot of the other factors. It's not a random orc/drow/etc who was raised the wrong way or something but who still has the capacity to change. But like I said, this is all besides the real point which is about how you and the player need to resolve this.)

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Did you tell the player that their actions would trigger a fall before resolving the outcome? That's honestly my only personal check in a situation like this. If the player declared their intent and you gave them a warning and they decided to go through with it without objection or argument then there's nothing wrong at all with how you played this. If you let the player make the choice thinking it was consistent with their codes and then you make them fall after the fact then I think there's a problem.

I can see how you might consider this murder, but Demons/Devils other fiends are basically made of evil. They aren't really ambiguous. You know what's in their heart because they're made of it. The fact that its assigned task happened to be benign is sort of besides the point. It could just as easily have been called to do something far worse and can / probably will do worse at some point in the future if unbound from it's current situation. That's not even a hypothetical so much as an eventuality. The Oath of good doesn't require you to consider every possible outcome, but this one seems likely.

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For a Ritualist, I agree with the others than you'll generally want to pursue some items that permanently boost the skills you need and invest in archetypes or class feats that more generally prepare you for them. Rituals are meant to mostly be team events though so you shouldn't have to be able to do them yourself nor should you expect them to work every time (nothing works like that in 2e).

There are scattered spells that give bonuses to skill checks, but as with items, usually just one skill at a time or for a particular purpose. The main exception being Heroism (a level 3 Occult/Divine spell).

Bullhorn Gives a +1 status bonus to attempts to Coerce or Performance at a large venue
Healing Plaster Gives a +1 item bonus to treat wounds checks at spell level 3
Read the Air Gives a +1 status bonus to diplomacy checks to make an impression.
Guidance Gives +1 status bonus to one skill check.

Pocket Library Gives +1 status bonuses to Recall Knowledge checks
Thicket of KnivesGives a +2 status bonus to Deception checks.
Heroism Gives a blanket +1 status bonus to all skill checks.

There's also a wide range of spells that don't directly boost a skill, but do so obliquely.

Negate Aroma makes stealth more effective against certain foes.
Share Lore Lets you transfer Lore training so someone else can roll.

2/5 *** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin

For what it's worth, I'm in a relatively healthy org play region and even we have had some fits and starts with in-person play. So I'd just echo that if you've got 3 people showing up even semi-regularly in the store that's a good place to be.

2/5 *** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin

Congrats to the new star, nova, and coin holders.

Blog wrote:
The bad news: doing so apparently broke AcP entirely in new and exciting ways. We’ve had reports of some people not seeing the grant yet, and other reports of events not awarding AcP for sessions anymore. Obviously, this is a problem, and tech is actively working on fixing it. Please know that fixing this is my highest priority, and I hope to see the issues resolved soon. Thank you all so much for your patience!

For those of us in a bad state (no new AcP, sessions not awarding future AcP) should we hold off making any purchases with existing previously earned AcP? Or will the expected fix account for that?

2/5 *** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin

albadeon wrote:
As an aside, I've been unable to find the rule in the guide that says PCs shall be marked dead when they have an unresolved negative condition, curse, etc. at the end of the scenario. Did that get removed since I last checked (season 1, probably?!), or am I just too blind to find it with the current format?

After the Adventure

After the Adventure wrote:

The following conditions are not automatically removed and must be cleared from the character before the end of the adventure or the character ceases to be available for organized play:

Permanent negative effects, including polymorph or petrification

The point brought up by the OP is that if this effect is permanent, it's a permanent negative effect with no tags. In many ways it's worse than death because you can deal with death using a successful use of AcP. But in this case the effect is uncategorized and untagged. It's not a curse, it's not spell. There's effectively no recourse, which is why it's also wildly unlikely that the ability is meant to be interpreted that way.

2/5 *** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin


GMs should run Pathfinder Society adventures as written, which means:

No change to major plot points and interactions
No addition or subtraction to the number of monsters other than scaling directed by the scenario
No changes to armor, feats, items, skills, spells, statistics, traits, or weapons.
No alteration of mechanics of player characters,
Nor banning of legal character options

You may think you're running a monster RAW here, but I'd argue you're imposing as much judgement on the ability by giving it a permanent duration as someone who chooses some other time (a minute, the duration of the frightened condition, etc). You're choosing as a GM to interpret a missing duration on a monster ability as an implicit statement that it's permanent even though that interpretation is obviously problematic.

Those items above are the 5 prohibitions. If you choose to give that ability a reasonable duration, rather than assume it's permanent, you have not changed a major plot point or interaction as there's nothing indicating in the plot that this monsters ability should be a major plot point. You've also not changed the number of monsters. You have not modified the text of the monster ability -- there's no text to modify. It doesn't have a duration. Lacking a duration is different that permanent. Y also have not altered a player characters mechanics or banned a legal character option.

All you did was make a judgement call in the face of ambiguous information. In this case, a permanent negative condition which would result in a dead character with no recourse by the player is pretty clearly an non-ideal outcome. Literally any other reading of that ability is more consistent with the general guidance of how to handle ambiguous rules, which are are encouraged to follow. The core rules include that passage.

I'm gonna bow out here because I can't speak with any more authority on this and short of a VO or campaign clarification here I don't know if I'll be able to convince you, but you did the right thing in the moment by choosing not to punish players for a likely oversight. Maybe I'll be proven wrong here and that it was intentional after all, but even that's okay because the point is that you're doing your best to handle what's always gonna be a little bit of a messy process adjudicating a living game like this.

2/5 *** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin

Relevant to this discussion, in the section on Table Variation in the guide:

Table Variation wrote:

Beyond the above, GMs are encouraged to make choices which would result in the most enjoyable play experience for everyone at the table and that emphasize PCs are the heroes of the story. Some examples of GM discretion include the following.

Unclear rules, or situations or player actions not covered by the rules.

If you're not changing the monster ability, and instead just choosing to read it in a way that addresses obvious ambiguity around it, then I believe you're well within the guidance we're provided.

2/5 *** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin

LeftHandShake wrote:

It doesn't look like there's a thread for this adventure yet; apologies if there is.

The cairn wights in the first combat have a critical failure outcome for Funereal Dirge of: "The creature is frightened 2 and takes a –2 status penalty to saving throws against drain life." This is problematic on a couple levels.

First (and less problematic), it doesn't do much: the status penalty from the crit fail doesn't stack with the status penalty from frightened, so it does very little in the short term.

Second (and potentially quite problematic), the status penalty has no listed duration. As written, the effect is permanent. Moreover, the ability lacks any relevant traits, so there's no way to remove the effect: a PC who critically fails this save takes a permanent -2 status penalty against Drain Life.

By the rules of OrgPlay, that's a permanent negative condition that isn't cleared at the end of the adventure, and thus the PC must be marked as dead. This is *almost surely* not intended, but it's the scenario as written.

I have read the table variance rules very, very carefully and repeatedly. There is no ambiguity or lack of clarity in how Funereal Dirge works, it's just (probably) written incorrectly from what the designer intended it to do; it has the same phrasing in the Bestiary.

Within the bounds of the OrgPlay rules, am I allowed to not run the ability as written? If so, what gives me that permission? Is it the dictum to "provide a fun, engaging, consistent experience", and being marked as dead due to a badly written ability isn't "fun", and wouldn't be "consistent" with how most GMs would run it (because they overlooked the problem)? Is it that this sentence doesn't include the word "abilities", so the GM can change monster abilities: "No changes to armor, feats, items, skills, spells, statistics, traits, or weapon"

I'm asking for guidance on the OrgPlay principle that gives the GM permission to not "run [the] Pathfinder Society adventures as written".

I think the simplest interpretation here is that the cairn wights ability lasts as long as the frightened condition lasts since it's a condition that decays on its own absent something keeping it in play. In the case of the critical fail effect, you're correct it's redundant unless someone has an ability which may reduce the incoming frightened effect. In that instance, a character who crit fails might only gain frightened 1, but still have -2 to saves vs. drain life.

To your point, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that any scenario author intentionally added an AoE death effect that was permanent and could never be removed should a character fail a single save. That's fundamentally against much of the game's design and skips over other potential conditions which would be more appropriate liked Doomed. It's far outside of a level 4 threat's abilities. So I think you rightfully identified why it would be problematic to run the way you read it the first time and that the text around the ability may be wrong and/or ambiguous (e.g. lacking a duration). I can't speak for campaign leadership, but I believe that you would be encouraged to use your discretion in this case and take the less punitive interpretation. In my experience, no one is going to jump out of a wall if you make a judgement call like that at a table and if you really are worried, talk to your venture officer to get their opinion.

Relevant Rule from the CRB (which we're bound by as much as the Org Play Guidelines):

Ambiguous Rules, Core Rulebook pg. 443 2.0 wrote:
Sometimes a rule could be interpreted multiple ways. If one version is too good to be true, it probably is. If a rule seems to have wording with problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended, work with your group to find a good solution, rather than just playing with the rule as printed.

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For what it's worth, the Fey Eidolon probably doesn't need the switch since it's level 1 ability is Fey Gifts granting it all of the enchantment and illusion spells from the arcane list.

I tend to agree with breithauptclan and Captain Morgan that if you swap the Fey bloodline to be occult, you'll need to / probably should rework their spells granted. The Fey and Nymph bloodlines already grant a good number of illusion/enchantment spells which makes them more rounded than other primal casters so I'm not sure how specifically necessary a full swap is, but you can certainly do it.

2/5 *** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin

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Terevalis Unctio of House Mysti wrote:
I was wondering what news was revealed? I was looking on the Twitch and Youtube channels but cannot seem to find any information. Reddit came up empty in my searches as well.

Compilation of PaizoCon 2022 Spoilers/Announcements

Edit: Oh weird... somehow my response is before your post now? That's neat. Guess I'm a chronomancer.

1 person marked this as a favorite.

It can be done untrained and by anyone with the appropriate skill. The cost is the action spent to take the Recall Knowledge action. Keep in mind that doing this untrained my also greatly increase the chance of misidentifying the magic entirely with a critical failure.

Note that if you didn't observe the casting yourself and are just trying to determine the spell from the effects (identifying if a person is charmed but not seeing the charming) then you have to use Identify Magic instead of Identify Spell, which works similarly but is an exploration activity that takes 10 minutes.

To be clear, those items in the first post appear to be guesses and not at all actual information that came out of the keynote as far as I can see.

Definitely not. For reference, the Ghost Hunter archetype is in this AP and despite it looking niche, it will get value in this AP (not all the time, but I doubt a player would feel bad taking it).

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There are undead. Not just undead, but there are definitely undead.

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Your wizard enemy isn't a player. If you want your PCs to have to wind their way through magical assaults / barriers and waves of attackers, maybe conceptualize the battle into phases a bit like a chase. This would keep them moving and on their toes but minimize how much you have to throw at them all at once. Then when they reach the wizard, the wizard is mechanically level 13 because theys already threw a lot of their magic down range. You could even provide ways for the players to set conditions or damage on the wizard in the final battle based on what they do in earlier phases.

Something like:
Phase 1: Navigate fog (skill checks, fail forward helps or hurts next fight)
Phase 2: Battle some minions (combat influenced by above, fail forward determines how bad the next part is)
Phase 3: Walls / Glyphs (more skill checks, softens everyone up on failure... maybe an opportunity to attack or redirect)
Phase 4: Battle wizard (powered up with buffs based on how slowly they took getting through phases 1-3).

2/5 *** Venture-Agent, Texas—Austin

From memory running this for 6 (VTT):

1) I didn't tell them which were easy, medium, or hard. But I did give them general hints like "x seems like a more challenging approach than y" or when they were approaching a check that they'd have difficulty on based on the DC vs. their mod.

2) The lodge entrance is on the right side of the building. The arrow was off a bit on the map. They enter into the room in the top right corner of the building. Muesello's workshop is the left side of the building (which they could enter from using the secret door if they know it).

3) I didn't see any. By not telling them the explicit difficulty, it created some situations where more rolls weren't always better with crit fails. But yes, it's easier with more people. The odd thing I ran into was a situation where they got their clues and the last player crit failed. I deducted their point, but they'd still already found everything. So on one hand, the system encourages everyone to try, but it does seem like something may have been missed?

4) This one was legitimately hard to figure out, especially since they don't actually get a chance to intercept the wagon before it explodes. I told them to situate themselves the way they would knowing an attacking was coming but not from which direction and let them decide exploration activities based on that to see how they'd roll initiative. Two set themselves next to the exploding wagon.

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