the old, "are you your own ally" question...


Rules Questions


I thought this was pretty much "Yes, you are considered your own ally" and then I was directed to this trait by a friend...

Community Minded (Regional)
Benefit(s): Any morale bonuses you confer upon your allies through your own abilities or spells last 2 additional rounds.

If you are your own ally, then this would apply to any Morale bonuses you confer to yourself.

What about Rage? If you have this, you could Rage for 1 round, turn it off...but still get all the bonuses of Rage for 2 more rounds...without the penalties to AC or actions. I know you'd be Fatigued but that seems like a small price to pay for adding extra rounds to every Rage.

Most combat don't take but 3-5 rounds, so this is quite the game changer...for a Trait at that!

Thoughts? Am I unaware of something else going on here?


Any sane GM would say no. Now for the very vocal and insistent minority in 3..2..1..


eh, is it that different than Lingering Performance?

I do agree it's a bit powerful for a Trait, but would it be bad as a feat?


I would bet it's not intended, but I don't think it'd be a big deal.

If we make the assumption that you are treated as your own ally for this trait:
The extra X feats look to be +6 rounds, you could squeeze more out of this by rage cycling. I think bard song is competence, and unchained barbarian rage is untyped, so there's a few things you'd think this would help with that it wouldn't. It would work with skald, and is beneficial for them whichever way the ruling goes, and it also works for bloodrager rages. It also makes heroism more potent.

It gets weird if you let it apply to single action ability boosts, such as moment of greatness. Applying what aught to be a bonus to one roll to all similar rolls for 2 rounds is probably not intended. But heck, we get that from the trait whether or not we're applying the self as ally rule.

I think it's safe to say that this ability wasn't written as sturdily as it needed to be.


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The big abuse of the whole "yourself as an ally" is with the Team Work feats, and the whole idea that you need an ally with the same feat is a huge argument that you don't count as an ally for yourself. After all, that means the entire section of feats has an absolutely trivial limitation on it.

After all, if you only get the benefits when you have an ally with the same feat, it means you always get the benefit and you don't share it with allies that don't have it. Even those allies don't need you because they are their own allies. So why make a huge deal out of Teamwork as a subclass of Feats if you are your own ally?

And it gets utterly ridiculous when you consider teamwork feats that give your allies free attacks or critical hits or extra bonuses to hit.

And thus why I say any sane GM would say no.


Xavram5 wrote:

I thought this was pretty much "Yes, you are considered your own ally" and then I was directed to this trait by a friend...

Community Minded (Regional)
Benefit(s): Any morale bonuses you confer upon your allies through your own abilities or spells last 2 additional rounds.

If you are your own ally, then this would apply to any Morale bonuses you confer to yourself.

What about Rage? If you have this, you could Rage for 1 round, turn it off...but still get all the bonuses of Rage for 2 more rounds...without the penalties to AC or actions. I know you'd be Fatigued but that seems like a small price to pay for adding extra rounds to every Rage.

Most combat don't take but 3-5 rounds, so this is quite the game changer...for a Trait at that!

Thoughts? Am I unaware of something else going on here?

I think it's been well established that you do count as your own ally. As for Community Minded + Rage, RAW, sounds legit, RAI, no this wasn't intended to work for Rage.

I think allowing this to work with Rage opens up a whole can of worms for any GM. You get Rage bonuses for 2 rounds after dropping Rage? How does that work with Rage Cycling and Rage Powers that can only be used once per Rage? What about Rage Powers that require Rage to be active or skills that can be used or not allowed to use, like Raging Climber or Raging Swimmer, or Diplomacy? What about constant effects during a Rage, like Superstition, are you considered Raging during this time or not?

Personally, I'd just say this isn't RAI because I don't feel like making a list of house rules to make it work. Community Minded was obviously intended for a Bard or a Skald, not a Barbarian. If they wanted this to work for Barbarians, they would've named it Lingering Rage.

Just add this to the small mountain of examples of bad writing.


Xavram5 wrote:
What about Rage? If you have this, you could Rage for 1 round, turn it off...but still get all the bonuses of Rage for 2 more rounds...without the penalties to AC or actions. I know you'd be Fatigued but that seems like a small price to pay for adding extra rounds to every Rage.

Half the strength bonus, half the AC penalty, -1 Ref, no rage powers, can't charge; you keep the keep the bonus from CON and to Will saves. I'm not overwhelmed. It's nice at early levels but becomes irrelevant later on, both because of the quickly rising number of aviable rage rounds, and the increasing impact of Rage Powers.

I'd say the flavor strongly indicates that it should't affect the bearer of the the trait. Still, as a GM, I might just allow it - but of course, being from Rahadoum means you character can't worship any gods. And you'd better give a good backstory for why such a "community minded" character is so far from their home community.

ErichAD wrote:
It would work with skald, and is beneficial for them whichever way the ruling goes

Yes, but no longer transferring Rage Powers greatly limits the trait's power for Skalds.

ErichAD wrote:
It gets weird if you let it apply to single action ability boosts, such as moment of greatness.

Well, it may last 2 rounds, but it's still "on one roll or check". I don't see why that limitation should no longer be there.


Im pretty sure there was actually a faq that said 'yes, yes you are your own ally'.

However, yes, RAI teamwork feats are not intended to count you and yourself.

That trait likely follows the same logic as teamworks, however... you have grounds to argue it.

Sovereign Court

Shinoskay wrote:
Im pretty sure there was actually a faq that said 'yes, yes you are your own ally'.

There sure was an FAQ on it!

FAQ wrote:

Do you count as your own ally?

You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, “your allies” almost always means the same as “you and your allies.”

So the question is, for the purposes of this trait, does it make sense?


Derklord wrote:


ErichAD wrote:
It would work with skald, and is beneficial for them whichever way the ruling goes
Yes, but no longer transferring Rage Powers greatly limits the trait's power for Skalds.

I can't seem to find what ends the granting of rage powers in the skald's inspired rage. I assume it's meant to be a "while they have the inspired rage condition" but it only says they gain it when affected, and extending the effect through community minded could arguably leave them still affected by the raging song. I assume you're right, since that makes the simplest sense, and doesn't leave the door open for rage powers being granted indefinitely.

Derklord wrote:


ErichAD wrote:
It gets weird if you let it apply to single action ability boosts, such as moment of greatness.
Well, it may last 2 rounds, but it's still "on one roll or check". I don't see why that limitation should no longer be there.

Fair enough


ErichAD wrote:
I can't seem to find what ends the granting of rage powers in the skald's inspired rage.

Inspired Rage is a Morale Effect that in part gives you Morale Bonuses. Community Minded only affects the Morale Bonuses.

So if you are a 6th lv Skald with the Superstition and Savage Dirty Trick rage powers, here's the full benefit of your Inspired Rage.

+2 Morale Bonus to Strength and Constitution.
+2 Morale Bonus to Will saves.
+3 Morale Bonus vs spells, supernatural abilities, and spell-like abilities.
Can make a Dirty Trick combat maneuver in place of one of your attacks once per rage.

Community Minded would make all the Morale Bonuses last 2 additional rounds. So you'd not get the Savage Dirty Trick rage power if you stopped the performance, since it's not a Morale Bonus, but part of the Morale Effect of Inspired Rage.


ZᴇɴN wrote:
Shinoskay wrote:
Im pretty sure there was actually a faq that said 'yes, yes you are your own ally'.

There sure was an FAQ on it!

FAQ wrote:

Do you count as your own ally?

You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, “your allies” almost always means the same as “you and your allies.”

So the question is, for the purposes of this trait, does it make sense?

It's really rather sad that people seem to ignore the bit from the FAQ about "make no sense or be impossible." Most teamwork feats and the trait in question clearly fall into the category of "make no sense to be your own ally" while some teamwork feats even hit that second category of "impossible"... such as the ones that require an ally with the feat to be flanking with you...


Xavram5 wrote:
If you are your own ally, then this would apply to any Morale bonuses you confer to yourself.

No. If I take a potion of Cure Light Wounds, I don't heal everyone because I count as one of my own allies.

"'Your allies' means 'you and your allies'" means that things you do for your allies you also do for yourself. It does not at all mean that things you do for yourself automatically affect all your allies.

So, no:

If you go into a Rage, you don't automatically put all your allies into a Rage

If you cast Bull Strength on yourself, you don't qutomatically cast it on everyone else.

if you use Combat Expertise, you don't automatically give everyone in your party an AC Bonus nor Attack Penalty.

If you fall into a pit, you and only you take 1d6 points of damage.

Does this really need clarification?


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Xavram5 wrote:
If you are your own ally, then this would apply to any Morale bonuses you confer to yourself.

No. If I take a potion of Cure Light Wounds, I don't heal everyone because I count as one of my own allies.

"'Your allies' means 'you and your allies'" means that things you do for your allies you also do for yourself. It does not at all mean that things you do for yourself automatically affect all your allies.

So, no:

If you go into a Rage, you don't automatically put all your allies into a Rage

If you cast Bull Strength on yourself, you don't qutomatically cast it on everyone else.

if you use Combat Expertise, you don't automatically give everyone in your party an AC Bonus nor Attack Penalty.

If you fall into a pit, you and only you take 1d6 points of damage.

Does this really need clarification?

Yep that's what I was going to point out now if you had an ability that shared your rage with your allies that might work but providing yourself a bonus that no one else gets isn't providing it to an ally.


Chell Raighn wrote:
ZᴇɴN wrote:
Shinoskay wrote:
Im pretty sure there was actually a faq that said 'yes, yes you are your own ally'.

There sure was an FAQ on it!

FAQ wrote:

Do you count as your own ally?

You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, “your allies” almost always means the same as “you and your allies.”

So the question is, for the purposes of this trait, does it make sense?
It's really rather sad that people seem to ignore the bit from the FAQ about "make no sense or be impossible." Most teamwork feats and the trait in question clearly fall into the category of "make no sense to be your own ally" while some teamwork feats even hit that second category of "impossible"... such as the ones that require an ally with the feat to be flanking with you...

Why doesn't it make sense for the trait?

/that FAQ is the Jacobellis v. Ohio of FAQs.


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Xavram5 wrote:

I thought this was pretty much "Yes, you are considered your own ally" and then I was directed to this trait by a friend...

Community Minded (Regional)
Benefit(s): Any morale bonuses you confer upon your allies through your own abilities or spells last 2 additional rounds.

If you are your own ally, then this would apply to any Morale bonuses you confer to yourself.

What about Rage? If you have this, you could Rage for 1 round, turn it off...but still get all the bonuses of Rage for 2 more rounds...without the penalties to AC or actions. I know you'd be Fatigued but that seems like a small price to pay for adding extra rounds to every Rage.

Most combat don't take but 3-5 rounds, so this is quite the game changer...for a Trait at that!

Thoughts? Am I unaware of something else going on here?

I would say "yes", by RAW. It would be important to note exactly what the morale bonuses are though. The strength, constitution, and will save would all carry over those extra rounds, but rage powers would not, and you are not actually raging any longer. Definitely too powerful for a trait, but probably not enough so that I'd ban it as a GM. Honestly, I've never seen barbarians in my games run into problems with a lack of rage rounds. If anything, the biggest advantage here would arguably be that you maintain those bonuses but are also able to concentrate and do all skill checks again, but that's also not exactly a wild advantage.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Xavram5 wrote:
If you are your own ally, then this would apply to any Morale bonuses you confer to yourself.

No. If I take a potion of Cure Light Wounds, I don't heal everyone because I count as one of my own allies.

"'Your allies' means 'you and your allies'" means that things you do for your allies you also do for yourself. It does not at all mean that things you do for yourself automatically affect all your allies.

So, no:

If you go into a Rage, you don't automatically put all your allies into a Rage

If you cast Bull Strength on yourself, you don't qutomatically cast it on everyone else.

if you use Combat Expertise, you don't automatically give everyone in your party an AC Bonus nor Attack Penalty.

If you fall into a pit, you and only you take 1d6 points of damage.

Does this really need clarification?

I...re-read both the OP and your response multiple times, and I think you misunderstood the question. No one is implying that any effect one applies to themselves is also applied to other allies.


We're in the era of the Home GM now, so we can stomp on these sorts of shenanigans and squish them into nothingness.


Xavram5 wrote:

Community Minded (Regional)

Benefit(s): Any morale bonuses you confer upon your allies through your own abilities or spells last 2 additional rounds.

If you confer a morale bonus to just one person, does this effect still apply? Does 'your ally' count as 'your allies'?


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PFRPGrognard wrote:
We're in the era of the Home GM now, so we can stomp on these sorts of shenanigans and squish them into nothingness.

Why is this a shenanigan?


For one, the only thing that lingers is the Moral bonus(es)... no other benefits of Rage or what have you would carry over.

So sure. Be your own ally Mr. Community Minded Barbarian... why would anyone care about this?

Why would anyone go out of their way to squish it into nothingness? Lol.


"Guys you dont understand. I'm getting angry for the community."

"Ohhhhhhhh!"


side note #1.
even if it works you still would be fatigued unless you can deal with that s well.

side note #2.
had a player trying to pull that drug thing that make you not taking the effects of fatigued, for his rage cycling.
i stopped him, pointing out that even if he take no penalty for being fatigued he is still fatigued (so among other things if something would make him fatigued again he would get exhausted etc) so he still can't go into a rage. as the rage only care if your tired not if you take penalties from it. (it doesn't eliminate fatigue but it's effects)

Dark Archive

zza ni wrote:

side note #1.

even if it works you still would be fatigued unless you can deal with that s well.

side note #2.
had a player trying to pull that drug thing that make you not taking the effects of fatigued, for his rage cycling.
i stopped him, pointing out that even if he take no penalty for being fatigued he is still fatigued (so among other things if something would make him fatigued again he would get exhausted etc) so he still can't go into a rage. as the rage only care if your tired not if you take penalties from it. (it doesn't eliminate fatigue but it's effects)

So you just wanna make them use potions of lesser restoration?

Silver Crusade

Related question: do you count as a creature of your own gender for the purposes of the Sharesister spell?

In other words, can you convert a 3rd level spell slot and 1/4/6 "temporary" negative levels into +1/+2/+3 CL and DCs for a few minutes per day?


Cavall wrote:

"Guys you dont understand. I'm getting angry for the community."

"Ohhhhhhhh!"

I just LITERALLY laughed out loud! Thanks for that C-note!


Gray Warden wrote:

Related question: do you count as a creature of your own gender for the purposes of the Sharesister spell?

In other words, can you convert a 3rd level spell slot and 1/4/6 "temporary" negative levels into +1/+2/+3 CL and DCs for a few minutes per day?

I don't think you count as "you and one creature of your gender". I mean you are a creature of you own Gender but the target line specifics you need a second creature. "both targets of the spell must simply be of the same gender" also it says both targets so your gonna need to people sadly


Name Violation wrote:
zza ni wrote:

side note #1.

even if it works you still would be fatigued unless you can deal with that s well.

side note #2.
had a player trying to pull that drug thing that make you not taking the effects of fatigued, for his rage cycling.
i stopped him, pointing out that even if he take no penalty for being fatigued he is still fatigued (so among other things if something would make him fatigued again he would get exhausted etc) so he still can't go into a rage. as the rage only care if your tired not if you take penalties from it. (it doesn't eliminate fatigue but it's effects)

So you just wanna make them use potions of lesser restoration?

well yes. if they want to rage again before their fatigue is over then lesser restoration can be used. that thing is a 2nd level potion so like 300 gp a pop? sound fair to me if he can't wait a number of rounds, take an action to draw and other to drink and it only help once. not like what he tried - to pay 75 gp (or craft it and only 1/3 of this) and be good for the next 8 hours.


Name Violation wrote:
zza ni wrote:

side note #1.

even if it works you still would be fatigued unless you can deal with that s well.

side note #2.
had a player trying to pull that drug thing that make you not taking the effects of fatigued, for his rage cycling.
i stopped him, pointing out that even if he take no penalty for being fatigued he is still fatigued (so among other things if something would make him fatigued again he would get exhausted etc) so he still can't go into a rage. as the rage only care if your tired not if you take penalties from it. (it doesn't eliminate fatigue but it's effects)

So you just wanna make them use potions of lesser restoration?

Or a Scarlet and Green Cabochon (Flawed) Ioun Stone.


PFRPGrognard wrote:
We're in the era of the Home GM now, so we can stomp on these sorts of shenanigans and squish them into nothingness.

If we're talking about the advantages of having a home GM able to decide for themself, can't we think about and discuss the issue, first?

Upthread I gave my thoughts on the subject; in most campaigns, it's not really that great a trait. In my experience, at low levels, HP damage limits the number of fights a very low level group can have per day, which prevents the trait from having a big impact, while the interaction with Rage becomes pretty much irrelevant after very few levels anyway.

Added bonus: Since a Barbarian/Bloodrager can't just switch back to 'full' Rage, the player would actually need to carefully monitor everything that happens during combat, and anticipate what happens next.

Matthew Downie wrote:
Xavram5 wrote:

Community Minded (Regional)

Benefit(s): Any morale bonuses you confer upon your allies through your own abilities or spells last 2 additional rounds.
If you confer a morale bonus to just one person, does this effect still apply? Does 'your ally' count as 'your allies'?

Plurals like that are singular-inclusive. For example, the Charm Person spell says "If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw." - even a single ally threatening the target triggers this.

VoodistMonk wrote:

Be your own ally Mr. Community Minded Barbarian... why would anyone care about this?

Why would anyone go out of their way to squish it into nothingness? Lol.

"While some pray to the gods for mercy or prosperity, you follow a different tack—you believe in improving the lives of those around you through earnest labor and the efforts of you and your community." Yeah, that is totally at odds with entering a state in which you can fight better. "Lol" indeed.

Seriously, do you people only go by the name and not read the description? "The name of a class feature (...) is flavor text, not rules text." I don't see why that should be different for traits - I'd rather go by the description. And doing that, "getting angry for the community" does indeed make sense and actually fits the trait's flavor - hard work instead of relying on gods and stuff to protect your people does sound rather barbarian-ish to me. Do I think the trait was intended for self-only stuff? No, as I've said in my first post. But I think paiting the case as totally ridiculous is not a fair evaluation.

@Gray Warden: The spell talks about "both targets". You may count as your own ally, but you don't count as two targets.

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