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I have a particular hatred for the Eldritch Scion Magus Archetype, at least for the first 8 levels. I had been waiting for a Magus that could rage for ages, and the first thing we get (from a first party source at least), is this class, which can't actually rage, but rather enters into a state of Mystic Focus. This state of Mystic Focus doesn't count as rage, nor does it bestow any benefits like Rage does. Rather, it just allows you to access a Bloodrager's Bloodline.
For 2 rounds.
At the cost of a spell point.
Worse still, for the first 8 levels you can't even use Spell Combat unless you are in Mystic Focus! So not only are you loosing a limited resource by way of casting a spell in Spell Combat, but you are being forced to spend ANOTHER limited resource by way of Arcane Pool points. To make matters worse, unlike rage, which is a free action, Mystic Focus requires a swift action. Note that the Magus already had Swift action bloat from other abilities, namely enhancing his weapon so he can fulfill his role as a melee DPS. This, does not help matters.
That said, for all my bluster over it, at least it's not NEARLY as bad as the Greensting Slayer Magus. Because trading out the ability to enhance your weapon is TOTALLY worth HALF of a Rogue's sneak attack...on ONE attack per pool point & swift action spent. Seriously, who in their right mind would willingly choose to take this archetype?
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And it's worth pointing out that NOTHING stops you from just doing a round to round performance. You're losing armour casting and proficiency, not regular bardic performance.
It is worth noting that at low levels, a Geisha basically needs the Extra Performance class feature in order to use both the Tea Ceremony and her bardic performance, since a Tea Ceremony on its own will easily consume all the daily rounds usage for a low-level bard. If you're buffing three party members, that's 12 rounds. It is pretty expensive to use.
The Tea Ceremony really depends on your ability to know when your fights are going to be and plan to get off the ceremony just before they happen. That can be hit or miss depending on the kind of adventure you're in, so I do think the ability is rather clunky.
Again, I don't understand the utter vitriol this archetype gets, because even looking at it in the least favorable light it's just slightly below average.
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Tea ceremony also doesn't specify a maximum range at which it works, so it's handy for buffing your allies who are on different continents, planes of reality, etc.Come on. Seriously.
Thread for you. Some things have been nerfed by Errata (Scarred Witch Doctor, Hex Vulnerability, Verminous Hunter with dead Companion), so the proposed build won't work any more as is, but something along these lines could still be put together.
Edit: Thread Necromacy welcome.
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Tea ceremony also doesn't specify a maximum range at which it works, so it's handy for buffing your allies who are on different continents, planes of reality, etc.Come on. Seriously.
Tea Ceremony (Su)
By spending 10 minutes preparing an elaborate tea ceremony, a geisha may affect her allies with inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness, or inspire heroics. The ceremony’s effects last 10 minutes. The geisha must spend 4 rounds of bardic performance for each creature to be affected.
I assume that RAI, the allies are supposed to attend the tea ceremony.
I would guess that the effect is supposed to continue to act as a buff for the next ten minutes even if you then split the group.
Also worth noting that Inspire Greatness and Inspire Heroics are given as options. I'd guess would be you're not supposed to be able to do that until you're at the level where you'd be able to do that anyway rather than being able to do so from level 1. I'd also guess that it allows you to exceed the normal limit of how many targets you can affect with those abilities, though I could be wrong about that...
This isn't a very clearly defined class, is it?
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^I have seen builds that use dips in White-Haired Witch for cool stuff, but I have yet to see a single-class (or even close to single-class) build of it that is workable (MAYBE go Eldritch Heritage and Improved Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal AND Orc(*)) to get your Strength up(**)? -- but then you have to invest substantially in Charisma). Unfortunately, True Strike is not on the Witch spell list nor in any of the Patrons, so you can't spam that unless you snag it as a Samsaran with Mystic Past Life, but as a Samsaran you are going to be extremely squishy (Constitution penalty).
(*)Of course, that requires allowing you to take Eldritch Heritage more than once to get started on different Bloodlines. Even if allowed, that's an awful lot of feats.
(**)Maybe even add Exotic Heritage to let you take Eldritch Heritage and Improved Eldritch Heritage (Pit-Touched), so that you can also get your Constitution up.
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I answered the OP question. To myself Geisha is one of the worst archetypes imo.
As for the Tea Ceremony and range i'm assuming Paizo figures DMs would apply common sense.
Player "nothing says it does not work on different continents, planes of reality etc"
DM: NO!
I'm not a restrictive DM yet don't try and pull that semantics kind of BS with me at the table or your gone from the game.
As has been mentioned already the Brute. Any archetype that ends up being worse than the original class it is based on. Any archetype that replaces a major ability with either a feat tax or worse a +1 bonus to skill, bab, etc. Flavorful archetypes that whose fluff text does not match the crunch.
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Also with the new Patron groups in Blood of the Coven that gives you an additional Hex at first level The White Haired Witch archetype becomes a lot more fun.Wow, that is pretty nifty. Grab a hex from your patron, and use that gross blouse to get the cackle hex, and you're in business.
The misfortune hex is pretty cool, but I'm not sure I would trade the ability to cast divine power and righteous might for it (from the Strength patron).
The big question is whether you'd be able to pick up extra hex. If that's allowed, I'd definitely think that it's worth a swap of patron spells.
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The big question is whether you'd be able to pick up extra hex. If that's allowed, I'd definitely think that it's worth a swap of patron spells.Also with the new Patron groups in Blood of the Coven that gives you an additional Hex at first level The White Haired Witch archetype becomes a lot more fun.Wow, that is pretty nifty. Grab a hex from your patron, and use that gross blouse to get the cackle hex, and you're in business.
The misfortune hex is pretty cool, but I'm not sure I would trade the ability to cast divine power and righteous might for it (from the Strength patron).
I'd say so since you still retain the Hex class feature because of that bonus Hex (I'm pretty sure this was even brought up in the product thread).
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The Core Fighter is also a bad archetype.
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I've heard the Core Rogue isn't a very good archetype, either.
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I'd say so since you still retain the Hex class feature because of that bonus Hex (I'm pretty sure this was even brought up in the product thread).The big question is whether you'd be able to pick up extra hex. If that's allowed, I'd definitely think that it's worth a swap of patron spells.Also with the new Patron groups in Blood of the Coven that gives you an additional Hex at first level The White Haired Witch archetype becomes a lot more fun.Wow, that is pretty nifty. Grab a hex from your patron, and use that gross blouse to get the cackle hex, and you're in business.
The misfortune hex is pretty cool, but I'm not sure I would trade the ability to cast divine power and righteous might for it (from the Strength patron).
I know, I was the one who brought it up :P
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While I wouldn't say it's the worst archetype ever, or even the worst Kineticist archetype, (that dubious honor goes to Elemental Annihilator) Kinetic Chirurgeon is pretty bad. Take the poorly executed idea of balancing out burn by gathering power inherent to Kineticist, give them a healing ability that costs burn, then give them no way to mitigate it.
Yes, I know they get a double buffer at level 6, but that's still only 2 charges of buffer (that you have to charge up the day before, if you didn't use all your burn healing) and it still takes 6 levels before you can even get it. I've knocked myself out healing before, and usually come within a handful of HP of getting knocked out before I even come close to half health. I'm looking at taking a level of Oracle or Cleric just so I can use wands without breaking them.
EDIT: Forgot to mention, since you lose Infusions, Gather Power is useless until 7th level when you get a Composite Blast. Good times~
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The Core Fighter is also a bad archetype.
With Advanced Weapon Training and Advanced Armor Training options, it really isn't anymore. It was a massive stealth buff to pretty much every fighter class feature.
Between Versatile Training and Armed Bravery, the Fighter's biggest shortcomings (skills and saves, respectively) get patched up, and the rest is just gravy.
51 out of 57 paizo archetypes trade away Weapon Training and/or Armor Training.
It should be noted that any ability that works like weapon training satisfies for the purpose of qualifying for the advanced weapon training class feature. So an archetype like the Dragoon is still compatible with AWT.
It also deserves mention that Advanced Armor Training isn't quite as valuable as its weapon counterpart, so there are several archetypes (Lore Warden, Mutation Warrior) that are still stellar options in spite of locking you out of armor training.
However, it still remains true that the vast majority of Fighter archetypes have been functionally rendered obsolete. It's not 51/57, but it's still more than half. Most were pretty passable to begin with, but now that weapon training is vastly more valuable (also bravery, since armed bravery is awesome) many have become completely unviable.
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^I have seen builds that use dips in White-Haired Witch for cool stuff, but I have yet to see a single-class (or even close to single-class) build of it that is workable (MAYBE go Eldritch Heritage and Improved Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal AND Orc(*)) to get your Strength up(**)? -- but then you have to invest substantially in Charisma). Unfortunately, True Strike is not on the Witch spell list nor in any of the Patrons, so you can't spam that unless you snag it as a Samsaran with Mystic Past Life, but as a Samsaran you are going to be extremely squishy (Constitution penalty).
(*)Of course, that requires allowing you to take Eldritch Heritage more than once to get started on different Bloodlines. Even if allowed, that's an awful lot of feats.
(**)Maybe even add Exotic Heritage to let you take Eldritch Heritage and Improved Eldritch Heritage (Pit-Touched), so that you can also get your Constitution up.
hmmm never really read her ..wonder how it would work as a magus dip
or mixed with a shifter ...
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Chances are the Bagiennik won’t have LoE to most creatures in the multiverse
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As my fellow party members and I found out, a Hag with levels in White-Haired Witch was rather... potent. After my paladin and our Transmuter wizard died to that coven, the party sent out the call for 'monster hunters' and our next characters were definitely up to the challenge,
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I answered the OP question. To myself Geisha is one of the worst archetypes imo.
As for the Tea Ceremony and range i'm assuming Paizo figures DMs would apply common sense.
Player "nothing says it does not work on different continents, planes of reality etc"
DM: NO!
As a GM I'm inclined to go with "the tea is so good it buffs people who are completely unaware of its existence" as a valid use of the archetype, since I think it's funny. I mean, the whole point of the game is to have fun right? Sometimes something is the right kind of silly.
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Worst class Archetype in my opinion by far is magical child.
I may just be bitter about it, but trading away BAB or essentially sneak attack dice, medium armor, vigilante choices, for a familiar and a spell list that's focused on buffing an ally like say, a eidolon but you don't have a eidolon you have familiars who are notoriously bad at combat? Yuck. I GM'd blobbed a character to 3 and was planning on going magical child with a mauler familiar until that was clarified to not work on the transformed familiars and I just gave up on it.
Going with a Vigilante Avenger and focusing on brutal maneuver dirty tricks instead.
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I still hold by my statement that in order to be a top contender for worst archetype, it must be actively harmful to the point where it would be better to take a level of Commoner (or simply not take a level) rather than the archetype. Because that's where the Brute is. So, to topple the Brute, it has to at least hit that mark.
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It should be noted that any ability that works like weapon training satisfies for the purpose of qualifying for the advanced weapon training class feature.
Eh, any ability that requires you to choose a specific weapon group for your weapon training. Most of the other abilities are functionally identical to weapon training for a specific group but because they're renamed don't count.
A mass errata/reprint to make them weapon training groups would be a big step up for the fighter class.
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It should be noted that any ability that works like weapon training satisfies for the purpose of qualifying for the advanced weapon training class feature.
Eh, any ability that requires you to choose a specific weapon group for your weapon training. Most of the other abilities are functionally identical to weapon training for a specific group but because they're renamed don't count.
A mass errata/reprint to make them weapon training groups would be a big step up for the fighter class.
Agreed. A lot of the Fighter archetypes have the wording of their equivalent of Weapon Training changed just enough to rip you off out of having it count as meeting the prerequisites for Advanced Weapon Training or any feat that requires Weapon Training. As an example of this, Archer is even specifically mentioned in an FAQ(*) as having this problem. It would have been so easy to issue Errata fixing the wording of these Fighter archetypes to let them get past this problem . . . .
(*)Which unfortunately I don't remember where to find.
Re:White Haired Witch. A WW with good support can be pretty boss, 'Shadows Over Westcrown' AP adventure on the boards has a WW who used 15' of hair to trip and grapple while the ranger and rogue laid down stabbings from the front rank. Ass in magic spell for support and she was very effective.
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Wild Rager barbarians were making themselves a hazard to their parties years before the Brute vigilante came out.
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Should I say then that this fey creature can make a Ranged Touch attack on any creature anywhere in the multiverse, 1 round at a time? That's... kinda ridiculous.Fey.
Oi Fey...
Yes I'm sorry but only a little bit. :)
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Siege Mage.
Loses Scribe Scroll (bad start, but at least you can get it back as a regular feat) for the Siege Engineer feat - OK, at least it's a feat no one else can get for another four levels. You're proficient in all siege engines and makes you a bit better at being a crew leader for operating a siege engine, letting you still use Standard Actions to cast spells between operating a siege weapon, so that's OK, I guess.
Loses Arcane Bond (OK, that's so much worse) for Siege Engine Bond, which let's you lead a siege engine crew from 30' away, still requiring Move actions as normal. Wooo.
Loses Cantrips (WHO IS LETTING THIS HAPPEN!?) for Empower Siege Engine, an ability that let's you sacrifice a spell as a Swift action to increase your Siege Engine's damage by 3 per spell level. And you thought you were stuck with that Wish spell; now you can increase a single cannon shot by 27 damage!
And finally, loses Arcane School for...NOTHING! Instead, you have THREE Opposition Schools and no School specialization or fun Arcane School powers. Get F#cked.
Siege Mage.
Loses Scribe Scroll (bad start, but at least you can get it back as a regular feat) for the Siege Engineer feat - OK, at least it's a feat no one else can get for another four levels. You're proficient in all siege engines and makes you a bit better at being a crew leader for operating a siege engine, letting you still use Standard Actions to cast spells between operating a siege weapon, so that's OK, I guess.
Loses Arcane Bond (OK, that's so much worse) for Siege Engine Bond, which let's you lead a siege engine crew from 30' away, still requiring Move actions as normal. Wooo.
Loses Cantrips (WHO IS LETTING THIS HAPPEN!?) for Empower Siege Engine, an ability that let's you sacrifice a spell as a Swift action to increase your Siege Engine's damage by 3 per spell level. And you thought you were stuck with that Wish spell; now you can increase a single cannon shot by 27 damage!
And finally, loses Arcane School for...NOTHING! Instead, you have THREE Opposition Schools and no School specialization or fun Arcane School powers. Get F#cked.
My thoughts exactly. An entire archtype that basically only "allows" you to speak to a siege engine crew. Every other "benefit" is so minute as to be pointless. All for the low low price of becoming a severely limited wizard.
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Siege Mage is interesting to look at because it's not only pretty obviously designed to be an NPC archetype, but it's really aggressively an NPC archetype.
Siege Engines are already something most PCs will never touch, much less specialize in, so that already nudges most players away from it.
But then losing arcane school and getting an extra opposition school and losing cantrips just comes across as a scorched earth tactic designed to make sure no one will ever want to play one.
Yeah, Siege Mage is pretty much for the GM to make an NPC who is highly specialized in a siege situation but who does nothing else. This is not somebody you'd ever want to take with you into a dungeon (the ballista is going to have a tough time with stairs) but it's definitely someone the army would want to keep on payroll.
It does what it says on the label, and absolutely nothing else.
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Yeah, Siege Mage is pretty much for the GM to make an NPC who is highly specialized in a siege situation but who does nothing else. This is not somebody you'd ever want to take with you into a dungeon (the ballista is going to have a tough time with stairs) but it's definitely someone the army would want to keep on payroll.
It does what it says on the label, and absolutely nothing else.
That's just it, though - I wholeheartedly believe that a Vanilla Wizard does the job better. A regular Wizard only has TWO Opposition Schools, and actually has a Specialized School, special School Powers, and either a Familiar for action economy or a bonded object for even more spells.
But the Siege Mage has its Siege Engineer feat and Siege Bond abilities...but any 5th-level NPC can have the feat as well, and as for the Siege Bond...so what? It still requires the same size team to reload the damn thing, and it takes just as long as it otherwise would to aim and fire, so why are you paying a Wizard to do what a 5th-level NPC could do? The 30' distance the Wizard gets? Oh, and as for "well, that NPC can't also cast spells", fair point, but let's look at the Vanilla Wizard again. He can cast way more spells, has a MUCH wider versatility of spells, and while the Siege Engineer is spending his Move actions to fire a Cannon for 6d6 every 4 rounds, the Vanilla Wizard is doing that EVERY round with Fireball spells in an AREA, and from a much longer DISTANCE. Sure, the Siege Engineer could also be casting Fireballs, but he's not able to use Metamagic feats as long as his Move actions are dedicated to leading that Siege Engine.
So not only is the Siege Engineer a garbage Archetype, it's not even a valid NPC Archetype; it's detrimental in every way with no redeeming qualities, save for a niche bonus feat available to any NPC Siege Engine team leader, and the ability to do that same team leader's job from 30' away.
Sure, the Siege Engineer could also be casting Fireballs, but he's not able to use Metamagic feats as long as his Move actions are dedicated to leading that Siege Engine.
Why would he be unable to use metamagic feats? Wizard's don't have longer casting times for metamagic spells.
Living Grimoire Inquisitor (
I don't know if "three opposition schools" is really that big of a deal for a siege wizard. If your job is "I knock down castle walls" what do you really need Enchantment, Illusion, or Necromancy for?
There probably aren't enough (NPC) Wizard archetypes that are highly specialized at one specific kind of thing, that end up opposing all schools of magic unrelated to that sort of thing, just compared to how it would probably work realistically if magical talent were a thing that could be trained. Like if you can take anybody with talent and train them to be a wizard, you're going to have a lot of powerful organizations and people looking for prospective talent and training them up to do one specific thing their organization needs, whether it's "knock down walls" or "build fortifications" or "smuggle stuff" there are assuredly a bunch of schools of magic you're not using.
I mean, if nothing else it's going to be a lot cheaper and quicker for the army to train of siege wizards who can only cast siege-relevant spells than fancy-pants college educated wizards who can cast all the spells.
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Living Grimoire Inquisitor (You take that back! Any archtype that lets me actually be Lord Mozgus is at least a 5/10.
Okay, Living Grimoire is basically a series of side grades and moderate downgrades, but it doesn't deserve to be put anywhere near the same level as stuff like Siege Mage, Brute, and Cardinal.
For my contribution though, I'll throw the Soul Forger Magus to the pile. Sure it doesn't actively make you attempt to murder your friends, but geez are the trades rubbish. Lose a level of spells and spell recall for a bonded item and some rubbish abilities to make mundane items cheaper or add hardness+hp to your own stuff temporarily. Whoop-de-frickin-do.
But it is almost all weaker than other archetypes of the inquisitor. And not much stronger in skills. -(
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Living Grimoire Inquisitor (Eh. Losing Judgment hurts, but being an Int-based prepared caster is way better than being a Wis-based spontaneous one. And the other losses are mostly not a big deal.
Yes, but an light mace is sad.