Danse Macabre

Kaouse's page

Organized Play Member. 1,187 posts (1,396 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 Organized Play characters. 5 aliases.


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Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kaouse wrote:
If there IS a 1 spell/round clause, can I begin the process of casting somatic components for another spell after releasing a Still SLA on my turn?

There's not, but it's implied by the explanation above. For SLAs, you still need to target and activate, so that's a move and a partial action. To get two off in a round, you'd need access to 3 partial actions in addition to you move action, and most caster's don't ever get that. That said, if you somehow did, go nuts. Or if you wanted to get a head start on next round's spell, with the knowledge that paints a target on your back.

Also note that, if you have enough partial actions, you could, say, activate a SLA and also make a weapon attack in the same round.

Umm... are you sure about that? From what I gather from Chapter 7's explanation on action economy, targeting and activating a spell is basically the same partial action, not two separate partial actions.

Chapter 7 wrote:

Spellcasting in Combat

Casting a spell or channeling energy generally involves several steps, each of which requires an action:
  • Retrieving material components and/or presenting a focus component generally requires a partial action, although this time can be reduced to a swift action or even a free action through the use of the Sleight of Hand skill (Chapter 4), and can be eliminated altogether with the Eschew Materials feat (Chapter 5).
  • Performing the somatic components of a spell requires a move action.
  • Speaking the verbal components and targeting the spell can be completed together as a partial action.

Therefore, a 1st level wizard with no skill in Sleight of Hand, casting a spell with verbal, somatic, and material components, spends his or her partial action retrieving the components and the move action performing the somatic gestures. On the next round, as a partial action, he or she can finally speak the verbal component and target the spell.
A 12th level sorcerer (BAB +6) with the Eschew Materials feat spends his or her bonus move action performing the somatic gestures, and a partial action to speak the verbal components and direct the spell; that leaves another partial action available to take a 5-foot step, make a single attack, or whatever.

There are 3 main partial actions associated with spellcasting - material components, somatic components, and a combination of verbal componets + targeting/releasing the spell.

Material components can be erased with Eschew Materials or cheated through Sleight of Hand (or the Somatic Weapon feat). This erases 1 of 3 actions.

Somatic components can be erased with Still Spell, eliminating a second of 3 actions.

Verbal components can be erased, but the action requirement to target/release the spell doesn't change...unless certain conditions are met.

The very next paragraph wrote:

The Still Spell metamagic feat (Chapter 8) eliminates the need to perform somatic components. The Silent Spell feat removes the need to speak the verbal components, but the spell must still be directed, requiring a partial action unless one of the following applies:

  • If the spell is Silenced and affects only you (i.e., has a range of “Personal” and a target of “You”), this step can be completed as a swift action instead.
  • If the Quicken Spell feat (reducing the time to a swift action) is applied. Casting a Silent, Stilled, Quickened spell with no material components or requires one swift action.

So, with no material and somatic components, shouldn't there only be 1 partial action left, allowing a 6 BAB caster the ability to cast two Still SLAs in a round?

Doing it the way you suggest, would probably require changing the action economy on spellcasting from 3 actions at base to 4 actions.


How does Ray-Splitting work regarding action economy?

It's the equivalent of Manyshot, correct? So when releasing the spell, you release 2 rays instead of 1 with the same "release" partial action (which is also the same partial action you make use of verbal components).

That much makes sense. But, what about iterative attacks? Am I correct in assuming that making an iterative attack while ray splitting requires the use of an additional partial action - the "iterative attack" partial action, to be exact?

If so, how does this work with Quicken Spell?

The action to release the spell, as well as the "Manyshot" function of the rays - that part is a swift action. But further iteratives still require a partial action despite being a Quickened Spell, correct?

EDIT: I'm realizing that, if there isn't an inherent "One spell per round" rule in place, then the most effective means for a spellcaster to deal damage is probably to rely on Still SLAs since that's only one partial action, correct? If I can cast multiple every round, then that's always the preferred option over Ray-Splitting, isn't it?

If there IS a 1 spell/round clause, can I begin the process of casting somatic components for another spell after releasing a Still SLA on my turn?

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kaouse wrote:
Is minimum WBL already baked into any cohort, so "Par" WBL would be considered +1 instead of +0 for them?

Yes. Minimum WBL is default for all monsters, NPCs, etc.; getting PC par costs them +1 CR. As far as creature types, Thaumaturgy should pretty much always cover a familiar (and one could argue that the half-celestial and shadow templates and Outsider HD qualify it an an outsider).

I'm mot clear om why you'd want a fighter that can't leave your square and can't interact with the others, though -- I'd consider fighting to be interacting.

I'm looking for the closest equivalent to a Pathfinder Protector Familiar. I want the Fighter primarily because it gets the Shield Other [Stance] as a Fighter talent.

Any issues with that?

Talonhawke wrote:

Question for Kirth or anyone else that might have a answer.

I am in the process of reworking Strength of Thousands (2e AP) over to these houserules. Thanks to the bestiary that part has gone fairly well for book 1 so far. I am looking at the free Devotion feat that comes with the AP and trying determine the best way to keep the feel of everyone has some magic ability but not sure what the best way to do it with Kirthfinder is.

Oh, that's easy. If you want everyone to have magic, look into giving them the, "Magical Talent," and, "Magical Talent Array," feats, found in the Arcane Feat section.

While I'm at it, let's see if I got this right. I'm a Level 10 Archivist who took Thaumaturgy. I'm looking to create a Protector Familiar based off of the Udaeus. Because I'm level 10, the maximum CR my cohort could be would be 7. Would the following be a legal choice?

Young (-1 CR)
Degenerate (-1 CR)
Wingless (-1 CR)
Half-Celestial (+2 CR)
Shadow Creature (+1 CR)
Arcane Familiar (+1 CR)
Incorporeal Familiar [Ghost Template w/ restrictions] (+0 CR)
Minimum WBL (-1 CR)
Fighter 4 (+4 CR)
Outsider 6 (+3 CR)
Udaeus [HD 10, CR 7, TOTAL]

Did I get anything wrong? Is minimum WBL already baked into any cohort, so "Par" WBL would be considered +1 instead of +0 for them?

Also, any issues with Type changing templates? Thaumaturgy should already cover magical beasts, but I dunno if there are any issues when it comes to using outsiders and then changing THEM into magical beasts as familiars.

At any rate, happy 3,900th post!

Hey Kirth, Question: For Incorporeal Familiars, they basically just apply the Ghost Template, correct?

Should I assume that the +2 CR increase from the Ghost template isn't applied, because of the inherent downsides of Incorporeal Familiars (can't move from master's square, can't interact with anyone or anything else)?

Presumably, if I did apply the +2 CR increase of the template, then it would gain all of the benefits of the template, while still being able to interact normally with the rest of the world, right?

Damn. Guess I was too late to be considered, huh?

No matter, I suppose. I like building characters, so I still had some fun at least. Though for the life of me, I will never understand why BAB doesn't scale with epic levels but caster level does. Or why Barbarian doesn't gain any new rage powers but every spellcaster continues to gain new spells known AND new spells per day.

And then there's the Epic Class feat system, which... is also terrible for Full BAB classes. Barbarian (& Gunslinger) gets 1 class feat per 3 levels, compared to Bard and numerous other medium BAB SPELLCASTING classes gaining 1 class feat every 2 levels. Remember that Barbarians no longer get new rage powers, but these classes still get new spells every freaking level.

Fighter also gets 1 class feat every 2 levels... but this seemingly REPLACES their original bonus feats - the one thing they got over any other class! Fighter also gains more weapon groups they can select, but the actual weapon training bonus doesn't scale beyond +4, so this is literally only useful for Advanced Weapon Trainings. Despite this, Bards can scale their Inspire Courage and other performances infinitely, and even have class feats that can boost them continuously.

This doesn't even begin to get into how crazy epic level spellcaster feats and metamagic can get, compared to Epic Combat feats that are either more damage, or stuff that 3rd party lets you do at like level 1. There's a lot of good in Jesse's Epic Pathfinder, and it's great that there's such a wide amount of enumerated rules for the stuff that would otherwise be quite niche. But alas, as written it only strengthens the caster-martial divide, IMHO.

If nothing else, things like BAB and saves should continue scaling as normal. Since that's how the game creates it's own epic level monsters, afterall.

I finally finished the build!

Henry Pascal - Master of Form, is complete. I used a Myth-weavers sheet as the base because it helps me organize a bit better, but it shouldn't take too long to get a Paizo version.

He's a Fighter 30/Barbarian 30. Mutation Warrior on Fighter and Invulnerable Rager on Barbarian. No Spheres (it killed me to do this), no 3rd party material whatsoever, only Jesse's Epic PF as a guide (which I'm learning is... massively biased in favor of casters, lol).

At any rate, I think I did a pretty decent job with the build. A large portion of his build comes from his constant Shapechange, gained from worshiping Haagenti and then extended to 24 hours via a Ring of Continuation.

Unlike other Polymorphs, however, Haagenti's Shapechange also gives access to a few other spells, notably Monstrous Physique and Undead Anatomy. So he has access to quite a number of interesting abilites, even including the incorporeal ability from Undead Anatomy IV. This makes him a fantastic scout out of combat. Due a combination of Furious + Greater Ancestor Totem, he's also surprisingly good at skills.

In combat, he's a tank by every definition. A strong, tough to kill damage dealer, who can also help control space for his more squishy companions. The increased size in most of his forms helps increase his threatened area, especially combined with the Haagenti ability to give his weapons reach. And thanks to Cut from the Air and Smash from the Air, he can help negate attacks and spells that target allies in his extended reach.

He's also extremely capable at lockdown. Unexpected Strike gives him AoOs not just when people leave his threatened squares, but also when people enter his threatened squares as well. Pin Down prevents 5 foot steps and withdrawals. Spellcasting Harrier prevents casting defensively. Teleport Tactician and a Phase Locking Weapon prevent teleportation. He even has Wolf Style to help decrease an opponent's move speed.

He also has access to the Heal Skill Unlock as well as Healer's Hands to make him an effective HP healer, healing up to 360 hp (& 12 ability damage) with a single use. He can also apply First aid with a specialized healer's satchel in order to bring somebody back to 0 HP regardless of how negative their HP is. Combined with Deathless Frenzy, it makes him quite difficult to take out - a useful skill in a healer.

Lastly, he has absurdly good Combat Maneuver rolls, due to the combination of Strength Surge, Mighty Surge, and Improved Rage Power.I gave him Dirty Trick Master so he could use this high CMB to inflict debilitating conditions on enemies who might be otherwise too difficult to handle with damage alone. Of course, his damage is still absurdly high, due to his easy access to Pounce and multitudes of natural attacks combined with weapon attacks (he keeps his weapon when he transforms).

I'll extrapolate some stat blocks for him a bit later, both with and without buffs (the myth-weavers sheet assumes 0 buffs).

Here's his tentative backstory:


Henry was born to a family of farmers. While he was still a weak and helpless infant, his entire family was slaughtered. He would have died, were it not for the timely arrival of a band of bards & rogues, looking to scavenge the remains of the decimated town. This band of bards & rogues basically took him in and raised him as their own. He learned many skills from them over the next 4 or so years.

Barely into his teen years however, the band got into a lot of legal trouble with a church, which sent their Paladins and Inquisitors after the Band. Fearing the worst, the band sent him away before they were tracked down. The Paladins and Inquisitors were ruthless, slaughtering and executing all of the rogues and bards that had taken him in.

He was too weak to protect his original family, and then he was too weak to protect his found family. On that day, he cursed his weakness, and vowed to become strong. Strong enough to do whatever he wanted. Strong enough to never have to lose anything dear to him ever again.

In his blasphemous fury, his wish for strength was heard by Haagenti, the Demon Alchemist. Through visions and whispers, Henry found the forbidden library, and with it, other followers of Haagenti. Haagenti orchestrated a tournament amongst his followers, with the victor gaining a wish.

Henry fought with all of his might, and ended up winning the tournament, vanquishing all of his opponents with a combination of quick with and ingenuity. After winning the tournament, he was able to claim his prize - the Strength to do what he wanted.

Haagenti accepted his terms, but only if he could actually withstand his gift. Haagenti crafted a potion of such flesh-warping ichor that it would allow Henry to permanently alter his form, abandoning the weaknesses of his flesh. In return, the process was incredibly painful. With just the first sip, he was screaming. By the second, his body began to spit up blood in a desperate attempt to reject the deity's poison. But still, Henry persisted. On and on he drank, his flesh warping and twisting in horrific shapes as his patron deity watched on - amused by his tormented screams.

But still, Henry persisted. Defying all logic, defying even the expectations of his deity, Henry hung on to both his life and his dream. He refused to die by the potion, but simultaneously refused to stop drinking the potion. Finally, after 24 hours of suffering, he finished the potion and completed the transformation. From this, he gained the ability to Shapechange at will.

Haagenti, at this point, released him back out into the world, retreating to the lower planes. Some might say he was impressed with the mortal. Others...might even say he was scared. But all who would dare quickly met their end at such a preposterous notion. Still, even Haagenti had to admit that the mortal had more than surpassed his expectations. As a lesser deity, even he could not act too rashly against the Ascendant Human. So Haagenti opted to bide his time and wait.

Henry Pascal at this point was incredibly strong. Few could hope to oppose him. But interestingly enough, he never imposed himself on others. He took what he needed, but never more than necessary, and never from those who could not afford it. Did this get him into trouble with numerous Paladins and Inquisitors upholding the law? Yes. But none of them could hope to defeat him. All who attempted to smite him were dealt with quickly and mercilessly.

So strong he was, that he even began to garner the attention of the One True Deity, Arinolus. In an awesome display of his power, Arinolus quickly subdued Henry Pascal. Now humbled, Henry pledged to serve Arinolus, in hopes that he may one day obtain the same deific power that Arinolus possessed.

At that point, Henry would challenge him again.

Any questions, comments or concerns?

The simplest thing would be to make a Fighter/Bard and take both classes to 30. We're using Epic Pathfinder, and both classes have defined Epic levels.

I also already have a Level 20 Fighter build raring to go, so I would already be halfway done. If Path of War is allowed (I think I saw a Brutal Slayer Stalker somewhere?), then I can make my Bard a Rubato to replace spellcasting with initiating, which should be a noticeably lighter load, too.

If I submit an easily evaluated character before evaluation ends, would that be acceptable?

Would it be too late to submit a character for this? I have a number of high level builds on the backburner, shouldn't take too long to get one up to code.

Spark of Inspiration gives you a stamina pool, but does it count as Combat Stamina for the purpose of taking feats that use it as a prerequisite, like Extra Stamina?

This would seem to be the case, especially since the Voltaic's Path of Echoing Thunder gives them the Extra Stamina feat, but doesn't say that they ignore prerequisites.

However, the sparking rules never officially come out and say that Spark of Inspiration counts as Combat Stamina. At most, it just says that if you use both, then you get a single pool of stamina, and not two separate pools.

Dragon78 wrote:

"Extra" feats are not that strong, feats I think are strong are some meta-magic feats, item creation feats, and especially the leadership feat.

So is there a Extra Ki Power feat from 3rd party?


I really just wanted a Monk focused on Vital Strike rather than Flurry of Blows.

It's unarmed strike scales in damage as it levels; Vital Strike is perfect for it, IMHO.

Give it Improved Vital Strike at Level 8 and Greater Vital Strike at 16, in place of Improved Two Weapon Fighting and Greater Two Weapon Fighting respectively.

To make it even better, let it hit in an AoE, like a scaling Amulet of Quaking Strikes.

Hell, Amulet of Quaking Strikes should have been a Combat Feat similar to Stunning Fist, where Monks inherently get more daily use out of it, but this Monk archetype gets it for free.

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The problem with Magus being pigeonholed into one main build is due to all of their various restrictions placed on their class. Spell Combat is melee only, and they only have Light armor proficiency. So of course people are going to try and be DEX based in order to survive. They can only attack one-handed, so Dervish Dance is the best (now ONLY) method of getting DEX-to-damage consistently. It also uses a high crit-rate weapon in the Scimitar, which optimizes Spellstrike. If Spellstrike copied both the critical threat range AND the critical damage multiplier, then other weapons could be used instead. Dervish Dance simply optimizes every restriction the Magus is placed under.

ForsakenM wrote:

Maybe it's just me, but after playing a bit of the Magus and really looking into it and all it's options

- Despite being a casting class, the casting stat (Int) isn't as important to have super high as it is to have a high Dex as you can't get medium armor until 7th lvl and heavy until 13th and you will be on the front lines. I've heard you just aren't rewarded as much as other half-casters or full casters for having a high casting stat, which doesn't make sense as you should be equally rewarded.

See, this is why I think Bladebound Kensai Magus is awesome. It practically forces your to invest in your main casting stat, but rewards you handsomely for doing so. It gives you AC, it gives you initiative, it helps you confirm critical hits with the greatest of ease. And all of that is on top of the inherent benefits of INT the Magus already gets, meaning more bonus spells (to help counteract diminished spellcasting), more arcane pool points (which helps with Bladebound's main drawback), higher spell save DCs, more skills, etc.

All the while, the free scaling weapon from Bladebound that can be further enhanced with your arcane pool basically ensures that you never fall too far behind your other martial classes in the party. On top of giving you an answer to pretty much every elemental vulnerability, which your increased knowledge checks should be well aware of (to say nothing of doing unresisted force damage in a clutch).

Despite the tremendous loss of Spell Recall, I think Bladebound Kensai really nails the design element of a Magic-using warrior, IMHO.

The best way to play a Kensai Magus is to hyper focus on INT, even more than DEX. The Kensai Magus is unique in that boosting INT simultaneously increases all of your upsides AND mitigates your downsides. Bladebound works really well for this, because high INT mitigates those downsides as well, while the free scaling weapon means more money to spend boosting INT.

Focus on mobility spells and spells with multiple touch attacks though, since you lack the longevity of Spell Recalling Metamagic'd Shocking Grasps.

Dragonchess Player wrote:
Azothath wrote:
just remember that if they have any sort of armor a regular whip isn't going to do any damage. No damage does not bode well for any rider effect.

That's what the Whip Mastery feat is for:

Benefit: You no longer provoke attacks of opportunity when attacking with a whip. You can deal lethal damage with a whip, although you can still deal nonlethal damage when you want. Further, you can deal damage with a whip despite a creature’s armor bonus or natural armor bonus.

Mysterious avenger swashbuckler* 1/bladebound magus 2 can take Weapon Focus (Whip) at 1st level and Whip Mastery at 3rd character level. Then get a black blade whip at swashbuckler 1/magus 3.

The biggest issue with a whip is that it's a poor weapon for crit-fishing. A whip magus should probably focus on using Spellstrike with debuffs/status effects/etc. instead of damage; hexcrafter can be combined with bladebound and the Accursed Strike arcana would probably be worthwhile with the hexcrafter archetype adding "bestow curse, major curse, and all other spells of 6th level or lower that have the curse descriptor" to the class spell list.

*- or start with any full BAB class if you can also get whip proficiency in some way (half-elf Ancestral Arms, fighter bonus feat, etc.)

Kensai already gets free Weapon Focus, and free Weapon Proficiency in their chosen item.

Just play a Kensai Bladebound if you want to go Whip Magus, IMHO.

zza ni wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
zza ni wrote:
it's a game balance issue.

I fully agree. An effect that only bypass purely environmental effects that cost a +2 is overpriced.


So the more balanced interpretation is that it bypasses any wind effect. And that includes Winds of Vengeance.

ahh but you see, the "wind effect" you quoted is from the winds of vengeance info.

what we have here is the classic unbreakable shield vs penetrating all spear. ( i believe the story is the source of the Chinese word for paradox, but i might be wrong)

the weapon has : " a sheath of whirling air surrounds the weapon or the ammunition fired and prevents the attack from being impaired by wind, water, and other liquid or gaseous.. factor"
(yes a skipped a badly used word here. will do the same common sense re-wording on the next one)

while the spell say: " The winds shield you from any other wind effects (not only harmfull)..Ranged weapons..etc"

they both have a "it uses air/wind to negate wind/air effects" in some way or another.
i merely said that a 9th level spell should trump Vs a +2 weapon enchantment, if they confront each other with their wind force.

A "sheath of whirling air" is not a "wind effect."

Nowhere in Cyclonic is wind mentioned other than how the arrow feels.

With this in mind, I would rule that Winds of Vengance's ability to protect vs wind effects does not protect vs Cyclonic. As a result, Cyclonic bypasses Winds of Vengance's protection vs ranged weapons.

Temperans wrote:
Focused force with empowered and maximized is a lot of damage. But its also so easy to avoid.

Needing Shield, a minute/level duration spell, or a Ring of Forcefangs is far from easy to assume that most people have.

Both are also countered by Dispel Magic.

Also, another option for boosting Magic Missile is Ascendant Spell. This will allow you to basically double your missile damage from 1d4+1 to 2d4+1. It also bypasses shield and similar effects that specifically block non-mythic Magic Missile.

Unforutnately, Ascendant Spell won't get you the Augmented version, which lets you double your actual number of missiles. With Intensified Spell, Augmented Mythic Magic Missiles can fire up to 14 missiles for 2d4+1 each, for about 84 damage, 126 if maximized. 42 extra damage if empowered, and if you also have Orc Bloodline + Blood Havoc, you're looking at an extra 28 (42 if empowered) damage. At max, that's about 210 unresistable and unavoidable force damage from a single cast.

And you still have a Quickened rod for a total of 420 damage so blaze it, lol. But again, a lot of this requires Mythic.

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kaouse wrote:
Channel Energy uses don't scale with level. Only Channel Energy damage scales by level. You only ever get 3 + Charisma mod in Channels ever. So the example given doesn't exactly make sense.

Ag, you're absolutely right. Brain fart there (I almost never play a cleric, so my memory is always hazy on the mechanics). Hmmm.

The simplest fix would be 2,000 x final number of uses, but that's only half as much.

The absolute easiest fix, would be to keep the wording, then just change Channel Energy to scale with level.

You now get 1 + CHA mod uses at level 1, with an extra use every odd level thereafter.

So by level 5, you have the same 3 + CHA uses, but by level 15, you 8 + CHA uses.

That would make sense with the way you've written the new Extra Channel and I'm always down for some more level scaling.

I was looking at the feat rules, and there still seems to be some...grey areas.

Namely this:

For feats that grant additional uses of class features (e.g., Extra Channeling), the cost is 2,000 numen x the minimum level needed to gain the final number of uses. For example, Extra Channeling grants 2 additional uses per day; if you can already channel energy 3/day, the cost would be 18,000 numen (channeling energy 5/day requires a 9th level caster)

Channel Energy uses don't scale with level. Only Channel Energy damage scales by level. You only ever get 3 + Charisma mod in Channels ever. So the example given doesn't exactly make sense.

I checked the cleric and archivist and nothing in those classes changes this, so I'm wondering if maybe you were planning on changing Channel Energy uses to scale with level but didn't push it to live for whatever reason.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Te'Shen wrote:

See... this is why martials cannot have nice things. Because of lawyers.

No, they will not have nice things because they are always crying they are a poor, suppressed group that only gets to do more damage than any other group.

You have noticed that we are speaking of a weapon magic property?
It has nothing to do with being a martial or not.

Trained initiative works, and that is a Fighter's ability, so actually, it is the reverse of what you say: the Fighter (a martial) gets the benefit, other people don't get it from a magic weapon that any class can use.

Fighters don't get to do more damage than any other group. Look at any DPR Olympics thread and I challenge you to find a single Fighter build in any of them.

Pathfinder has always been a game where spells can do almost anything while non-magic abilities are forced to be "realistic" for some reason. Naturally, this includes the area of dealing damage.

The alternative is to have a murder hobo walking around with their weapon out 24/7. I'd most certainly let it work.

The initiative check isn't made until after you Quickdraw the weapon, and the player ges to decide which happens first, IMHO.

I would also go for Evangelist Cleric with Sacred Summons, Bardic Performance, and Glory Subdomain's Aura of Heroism. Wear a Poet's Cloak to give Summons Raging Song + Reckless Abandon. Take the Community-Minded trait to really get the most out of Aura of Heroism & Raging Song.

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Inevitable arbiters.

Regeneration except vs chaos-aligned attacks is basically immortality.

Like all inevitables, it gets a bunch of construct immunities, meaning that it's the most survivable familiar available. It also gets truespeech, so it can be used to translate if the need arises.

Chell Raighn wrote:
Kaouse wrote:

Panoplies requires specific items to be your Implements in order to select them. Silksworn requires different specific worn items in specific slots in order to be your implement.

There is a way that you can select Trappings of the Warrior as a Silksworn, but it relies on an obscure Technological Item that counts as both a shield & a worn item of the proper slot (Hard Light Shield)... as well as an obscure Scaling Magic Item that counts as both a weapon & a worn item of the proper slot (Brutish Boots).

You do know the Feet slot Weapon is a lot easier to cover than that… there is a simple mundane weapon that qualifies. The Blade Boot no need to search for an obscure item with it… the Wrist slot Shield however is a much harder sell…

Blade Boot is a weapon, but doesn't explicitly occupy the Feet slot, unfortunately. I chose Brutish Boots specifically because there was no ambiguity in the rules. But hey, if your GM will allow it, by all means!

Even if the weaker PFS version of the Ring of Seven Lovely Colors is used, you're a Monster Tactician, and therefore can very easily continue to summon monsters while a Songbird. It explicitly doesn't count as an attack for the purposes of invisibility, so it won't count as an attack for this, either.

You might want to take Bonded Mind as one of your Teamwork feats, though. Being able to communicate while in Songbird form might be important.

MrCharisma wrote:
Kaouse wrote:
My favorite caster Gestalt was playing an Exploiter Pact Wizard + Silksworn Occultist. Thanks to a GM Favor I was allowed to select the Mage's Paraphernalia Panoply as my final Silksworn Implement.
Just note that Silksworn can't take Panoplies, so unless you have a forgiving GM like Kaouse this isn't an option. If I had to choose between the Mage's Paraphernalia Panoply and the Silksworn archetype I think I'd go with the Panoply (and I'd pribably take the Panoply Savant archetype), but either one would offer some nice goodies.

Panoplies requires specific items to be your Implements in order to select them. Silksworn requires different specific worn items in specific slots in order to be your implement.

There is a way that you can select Trappings of the Warrior as a Silksworn, but it relies on an obscure Technological Item that counts as both a shield & a worn item of the proper slot (Hard Light Shield)... as well as an obscure Scaling Magic Item that counts as both a weapon & a worn item of the proper slot (Brutish Boots).

Pretty hard sell in most cases. That said, if your GM allows it, then note that Trappings of the Warrior isn't very thematically appropriate with Silksworn (who gets rid of a lot of armor and weapon proficiency), so asking your GM to trade it out for Mage's Paraphernalia or Performer's Accoutrements might not be impossible.

TxSam88 wrote:
Kaouse wrote:

EDIT: I'm seeing people talk about Barbarian / Monk without mentioning the Martial Artist archetype for Monk. It removes alignment restrictions AND gives you early rage cycling via immunity to fatigue at level 5. It's the best gestalt with Barbarian in 1pp, IMHO. Especially if you're using the best Barbarian archetype, Beastkin Berserker.

We went with Weapon Adept Monk, this opened up some combat feats that a monk or barbarian normally can't get.

Right now at 10th level, when hasted and using a ki point to get an extra attack on flurry, she has 8 attacks per round, the first 4 being at +21 to hit, doing 1d8 +28

Those are good offensive values, but I personally think Martial Artist offers more. If you can make your Exploit Weakness check, then you gain an equivalent bonus to Weapon Focus + Greater Weapon Focus. What you lose out on damage is made up with Rage & Beast Shape, so it's not like you really need all that much more.

I also place a lot of stock in early rage-cycling, though that might just be because I'm somewhat of a dirty power gamer, lol.

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My favorite caster Gestalt was playing an Exploiter Pact Wizard + Silksworn Occultist. Thanks to a GM Favor I was allowed to select the Mage's Paraphernalia Panoply as my final Silksworn Implement.

It was an amazing gestalt. Mage's Paraphernalia gave free floating metamagic, along with potential caster level increases. Silksworn's DC boosting and ability to hide spellcasting worked based on which spell school you had access to, thus it also worked freely with Wizard spells.

Obviously, Exploiter Pact Wizard was still the "meat" of the build, but Silksworn Occultist with Mage's Paraphernalia really covered my bases, I feel. Abjuration Implement helped make me somewhat tanky, and I had a lot of staying power with Focus Powers to fall back on.

EDIT: I'm seeing people talk about Barbarian / Monk without mentioning the Martial Artist archetype for Monk. It removes alignment restrictions AND gives you early rage cycling via immunity to fatigue at level 5. It's the best gestalt with Barbarian in 1pp, IMHO. Especially if you're using the best Barbarian archetype, Beastkin Berserker.

Beastkin Berserker transforms you into a animal via Beast Shape I - III. With Monk's unarmored AC bonus, this isn't a problem. Plus, you can use Monk's enhanced unarmed strike damage with up to Huge sized animals, for easy damage boosting. It's a really good combination, IMHO.

I like to take things further by stacking Beastkin Berserker with Savage Technologist, for a DEX-increasing rage. This improves your AC when you rage and gets rid of "Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome" because you no longer adjust your CON. Savage Technologist can also be combined with Savage Barbarian for just a bit more Unarmored AC. Combined with a diminutive form, and the Barbarian can get insanely high AC, especially with Martial Artist Monk's Exploit Weakness ability. +2 to hit and the ability to bypass hardness or DR is great, but half level to AC instead is insane value, IMHO.

Wait a minute, you're a Ravener Hunter?

What Oracle Mystery do you have? There are several Revelations that can grant a scaling AC bonus.

Barring that, I'd suggest investing in a cheap Ring of Seven Lovely Colors. It'll let you turn into a songbird for 10 minutes per use (which is an insane duration for how cheap the item is).

While you're in Songbird form, you gain a +4 to AC purely from size alone. With the size bonuses to DEX on top of that, you're looking at like a +6 AC swing.

Summon Monster should still work relatively alright while in Songbird form, given the fact that SLAs and Sus don't require verbal or somatic components.

Negative levels no longer stop you from casting spells, so...

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I generally just use a One-handed weapon and take Warrior Spirit. One handed weapons can be wielded with 2 hands for extra damage, but can also still be used in a grapple. Warrior Spirit gives you access to floating feats with the Training enchantment, or the ability to bypass most material DR with Bane. IIRC, there's also the Iron Caster thing you can do where you flex into Item Mastery Feats for psuedo-SLAs on demand.

I don't know how Magic Missile 4/day would be effective. But if you want, you can use this fairly cheap and nifty item, The Quarterstaff of Entwined Serpents, to spam Magic Missile. Note that it's only ever 2 missiles at a time, but it's at will rather than only 4/day. Moreover, it doesn't require that you take terrible Rogue talents, especially when those talents can be spent on better things allowed by the Phantom Thief.

Though...as Wonderstell mentioned, it is indeed weird that you're defending sneak attack using an archetype that completely gets rid of it.

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The Core Rogue is a terrible class with terrible talents. It has a lot of skills, but zero skill bonuses beyond trapfinding, making it a weak skill monkey. It's main damage steroid requires it to flank the enemy, but it lacks the survivability to be behind enemy lines. Beyond that, it lacks even a single offensive steroid, making it the weakest attacker in the game. This smattering of contradictory design is saved only by fix-it archetypes and alternate classes granting them both power and direction.

But even then, you're almost always better off just playing a Ranger. Rangers are better Rogues than Rogues and are stronger Slayers than Slayers (and stronger Fighters than Fighters, but that's besides the point). This really just goes to show you that it's not BAB or HD you need to succeed in Pathfinder...it's spells and action economy.

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Kaouse wrote:

I'd rather it was just DR/Nonlethal instead of Bludgeoning and NOT Slashing or Piercing.

How about this, though? Instead of DR/-, whenever you take lethal damage, you instead turn up to your STR-mod of it into nonlethal damage. This way, you're still taking the damage, but it's less lethal for you.

Negative STR mods could then mean that you take additional nonlethal damage whenever you take lethal damage.

On second thought, I'm using this for my own game. Feel free to carry on as normal.

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I'd rather it was just DR/Nonlethal instead of Bludgeoning and NOT Slashing or Piercing.

How about this, though? Instead of DR/-, whenever you take lethal damage, you instead turn up to your STR-mod of it into nonlethal damage. This way, you're still taking the damage, but it's less lethal for you.

Negative STR mods could then mean that you take additional nonlethal damage whenever you take lethal damage.

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Kaouse wrote:
there are a few things that are slightly unbalancing. Namely, the numen system.

Great points all around -- I love that someone is finally doing destructive playtesting to find flaws and loopholes. This kind of feedback is absolutely invaluable to me, and I'll be pondering solutions -- either along the lines you suggested, or, if I can, more elegantly with a single rule or rule change that would fix multiple issues.

Re: extra metemagic feats, bear in mind the ranks in Spellcraft prerequisite (2x metamagic cost), which will drive up some of the costs -- albeit not enough to prevent the kinds of abuse you outlined.

Being entirely honest, I don't consider it to be too terrible to spend numen on numerous metamagic feats. However, I should note that I basically ignore the line about seed spells allowing me to gain the augmented versions for free. I only use augments with metamagic that I have access to, as that makes the most sense to me. Effectively, I treat seed spells as just regular spells. In that instance, having access to a ton of metamagic isn't exactly a bad thing, IMHO.

It's not like I'm spending numen on stats or anything else. I think the Extra Channel exploit is of greater concern, personally.

That said, if too much metamagic is an issue, you could just impose a metamagic tax of some sort, where every metamagic costs an additional 1000 numen per metamagic you have access to. This would be due to inherent metamagic synergy.

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I've been playing Kirthfinder in a "Tiered Gestalt" system, where you are given points every level and can spend those points on class levels, or even feats.

I'm currently playing an Archivist. Archivist, as a Divine Wizard, is normally ranked at Tier 1. However, since I'm playing a version from an unrated source (Kirthfinder), I'm effectively paying for it as though it were a Tier 0 class.

What this means is that the amount of points the class costs will scale beyond the total amount of points I have. So after this level (we are currently level 9) I won't be able to level up in this class anymore.

For comparison sake, every level we get a number of points that allow you to safely tristalt three Tier 3 classes, or gestalt one Tier 3 class with one Tier 2 class.

This is all just background to what I'm saying now. Which is, that Kirthfinder is an awesome system, but there are a few things that are slightly unbalancing. Namely, the numen system.

In Kirthfinder, your numen can be spent on feats. You pay an amount of numen equal to 2000 x the minimum number of ranks or BAB needed to get the listed effect. But this restriction can be easily abused, which my character does in 1 of 2 ways.

The first way, is Metamagic. Metamagic doesn't really have any minimum restriction. So I've spent quite a lot of numen simply amassing a large number of Metamagic feats. I really love having so much access to these spell variations, however I think it needs a slight tweak to be balanced.

My suggestion, is that Metamagic now costs 2000 numen x the metamagic level adjustment. +0 level spells count as +1 level spells, and negative cost metamagic count for their absolute value, the same way they do for Spellcraft DCs. Metamagic that has variable spell level costs can be purchased at a lower level, but you cannot adjust the spell level beyond what you paid for.

The second way in which the numen system is a bit unbalanced, is in the "Extra" feats. Namely, "Extra Channel." There's no prerequisite to the feat. So taking said feat only costs 2000 numen, which is a paltry cost outside of the early game.

In order to balance feats that can be taken multiple times, I would simply implement a scaling cost similar to the cost of a magic item. That is you pay 2000 numen x the number of times you've taken the feat, squared. So taking the feat once costs 2000 numen. Taking it twice costs 4000 numen. Taking it 5 times costs 50000 numen. Taking it 10 times costs 200,000 numen. Obviously, the costs wouldn't stack.

That said, even without the abuse of Channel number, there's still the rather potent feat, Channeled Spell, which lets you retain a spell slot or SLA depending on your number of channel dice. Up until now, I had always read the feat as requiring a number of Channel Energy uses equal to the level of the spell, similar to the Time Domain's Versatile Channel ability, Channel Time. However, after looking up both the past and current version, I realized that I was wrong. It only uses up dice of Channel, so as long as you don't multiclass, retaining any spell only ever costs one channel energy use.

At the moment, I'm currently abusing the Extra Channel trick to make use of a ton of Channel Energies for the purpose of powering Channel Time. I was also using it to power Channeled Spell, but by expending Channel Energy uses the same way I do for Channel Time. I probably won't update how I use Channeled Spell unless the Extra Channel feat trick is patched out.

Still, I'm having a ton of fun in this game as a knowledge-focused God Wizard. I don't do nearly as much damage as some of the tristalt 3pp damage dealing monstrosities in my party, but my damage is still decent due to the use of Magical Talent: Bolt of Force and Feat Mastery (which might be worthy of discussion on it's own, heh). So I'm capable of contributing to any and every part of the campaign.

I'm pretty devoted to making sure that this system works, even if I have to pay a slight penalty in order to use it. Also, I just hit Level 9. Do my eyes decieve me, or does the Magic Domain really have the Counterspell from D&D 5th edition? Heh. Speaking of which, the Magic Domain's Variant Channel is still spliced with the Mystic Domain's version, but that matters a lot less now that I get access to 5e's Counterspell, lol.

Consider an Iroran/Enlightened Paladin. You won't even need Scaled Monk.

I'd strongly suggest going Inspired Blade Swashbuckler and Kensai Bladebound Magus. At level 11, Inspired Blade basically gets the ability to crit on demand, which makes the Kensai extremely deadly, since they can increase their crit modifier. Bladebound saves you a lot of gold and gives a few great abilities to boot. Hyper focus INT.

Belafon wrote:

Sean K. Reynolds' (designer on PF1) "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck" post on terminology.

One key quote among many:

And if for some reason two things that seem almost the same (like "channel energy" vs. "channel" vs. "channel positive energy") shouldn't act exactly the same, count on us to tell you how it is different.
So yeah, Slayer Talent and Talented Slayer are the same except - as is specifically called out - the inquisitor archetype never gains access to Advanced Talents.

Unless you're an Invulnerable Rager Barbarian. Because then, your Damage Reduction isn't called Damage Reduction, and thus can't be increased by the Rage Power that increases Damage Reduction.

But Wizards selecting Familiar stuff with their class feature named Arcane Bond is totally okay.

I feel like you're far better off playing a straight Kensai Bladebound Magus than what you have here. Especially if you're min-maxing stats. The more you focus on INT, the more you mitigate the downsides of the archetypes while increasing their strength at the same time.

If what you want is a tanky frontline Magus who pulls off respectable damage with powerful crits, it's hard to beat a Kensai Bladebound Magus IMHO.

I would say that the Flurry works for the exact same reason that Haste works. Haste only works with full attacks, so if your full attack includes a flurry, then you would be able to get both in a Spell Combat. The intention of the rules is clear, IMHO.

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Name Violation wrote:

People saying vital strike is weak haven't seen level 7 characters drop 280ish damage in a single hit.

Granted, it's not good for 99.9% of builds but that .1% using oversized butchers axes with lead blades and enlarge person are terrifying

Sounds more like 2 free rounds of buffing are terrifying.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Belafon wrote:
Transformation wrote:

You become a fighting machine—stronger, tougher, faster, and more skilled in combat. Your mindset changes so that you relish combat and you can't cast spells, even from magic items.

You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus to AC, a +5 competence bonus on Fortitude saves, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. Your base attack bonus equals your character level (which may give you multiple attacks).

You lose your spellcasting ability, including your ability to use spell activation or spell completion magic items, just as if the spells were no longer on your class list.

"Spellcasting ability" refers to the casting ability granted by the Spells class feature. All those arcanist exploits are Supernatural (Su) abilities. Supernatural abilities are different from spells. You can't cast spells but you can use the exploits.

"Sure", because the text of the spell was meant to address a class that was made several years later ...

RAW addresses only what existed when the spell was cast, but Arcanist exploits are fueled by his Arcane Reservoir and that is magical energy you get when preparing your spells. It is questionable to treat it as it wasn't linked to the arcanist spellcasting ability, as Transmutation not only blocks spell use, but it blocks the use of magical devices that depend on the caster's knowledge, not on its available spells.

Sadly, the FAQs on the ACG content are very few when compared with earlier books. A classic effect of being produced near the end of the life of a version of the game.

To reply to Zepheri question, the spirit of Transformation is that you lose your magical abilities related to the class, so, RAI, you should be unable to use them. At the same time, the current version of Transformation is so bad that it is almost useless if compared to its level. At the level where you get it, you will already have several of the...

The spirit of Transformation was that you can't cast spells, nor use spell trigger/spell completion items. You don't lose every supernatural or magical ability tied to your class.

For example, do Sorcerers lose their Bloodline abilities when Transformation is cast? If so, what happens when Level 20 Orc Bloodline Sorcerers use their capstone ability to use Transformation as a spell-like ability?

By your logic, said Sorcerer would lose all magical abilities related to their class, therefore lose their bloodline which grants them the spell. It's clear to me that this was never the intention of the spell Transformation. You only lose the ability to cast spells, that's it.

To go one step further, look at Barbarians. Their "Rage" mechanic also gives them physical boosts at the cost of loosing the ability to cast spells. However, they explicitly do not lose access to supernatural abilities, and indeed many of their Rage Powers are supernatural in nature. It is my belief that Transformation behaves much the same way.

You can always see yourself...unless it's dark.

Have you ever considered...just straight up playing a Barbarian?

Every two size increases you double damage dice. That's the equation I use.

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I messaged Kirth Gersen, and he told me that he's alright, he just has a lot on his plate at the moment. No small part of that being that he lives in Texas, which recently had the issue with it's entire power grid pretty much going up in flames due to weather damage.

But I'm still in the process of creating Hexes and Heralds anyway. At the moment, it's sort of a combination of Kirthfinder rules, my personal ideas, and Spheres. By all means though, feel free to contribute if you have ideas!

Also, I've upped the number of classes to 5, if you were wondering.

A level 5 spell when you previously didn't have access to level 5 spells is actually huge. That's the level where stuff like Shadowbard, Music of the Spheres and even Greater Bladed Dash come into play.

It's also a level where you gain a feat, which is automatically a plus.

Just be glad you aren't a Shifter.

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