Danse Macabre

Kaouse's page

Organized Play Member. 1,053 posts (1,186 including aliases). No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 Organized Play characters. 4 aliases.


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Gorbacz wrote:
Can I make Naruto using uMonk, or will Teisatsu Vigilante be a better choice?

Neither. Things Naruto can do:

-Walk up walls
-Walk on water
-Transform into other objects
-Summon clones to aid him
-Attack with Rasengan Variants
-Gain buffs from the Kyuubi

From a purely objective standpoint, Sorcerer is your best bet.

-Spider Climb
-Water Walking
-Disguise Self / Polymorph
-Army Accross Time / Summon Monster X
-Shocking Grasp + other evocations
-Rage spell + other buff spells

This is sort of what I mean when I say casters are DBZ-lite; not because of overwhelming power, but because of overwhelming options.


Ryan Freire wrote:
And can we stop listing DBZ as something to aspire to? Good lord, people complain about power creep then bring up a cartoon that might as well be titled "power creep, the cartoon"

Things that are basic to every noteworthy DBZ fighter at the very start of the series:

- Flight
- Ranged Attacks
- AoE Attacks

You really cannot function without these things in the world of DBZ without being turned into a joke.

Despite what you may think, Pathfinder is really much the same, at least at higher levels (early levels are more like the original Dragonball in terms of power).

Funnily Enough, it's easy to play a DBZ character in Pathfinder...as a caster. They get Overland Flight, they get ranged touch attacks and AoE attacks, and they have a resource pool that they can run out of. They can't destroy planets, but destroying small towns and cities is a breeze at higher level, with stuff like world wave and even just Control Winds.

You know who can't do any of that? Martials. Martials as a whole lack flight and AoE, and their ranged options require immense investment just to deal with the vast number of inherent penalties (like shooting into melee, did that really need to exist?). Long Story short, if you're trying to be a DBZ character, Unchained Barbarian is a poor choice.

Since we've already just accepted and internalized casters being DBZ-lite, why would it be so wrong for martials to have a few basic tools that allow them to do their freaking job? Why must the martial that comes closest to having these necessary tools (the Core Barbarian, who still lacks AoE) be nerfed to not having them?


Cavall wrote:
Being so angry you could fly was stupid in the first place. There. I said it.

AKA "it's not realistic so it breaks my immersion" AKA called it.

IMO, what's really stupid is having no access to flight (or even a decent range option) in a game where a vast majority of later level enemies have flight.

Quote:
And justifying system abuse by saying not doing it is stopping you from roleplaying is even worse.

How terrible of me, to alter the fluff of an ability like that? I forgot, this game isn't meant for me to use my imagination, is it? Forgive me for playing a character in a way you did not envision. /s

At any rate, like I said before (and even went as far as to bold and italicize for emphasis), this doesn't really address all of the stuff that was nerfed even for people who weren't using your so-called system abuse.

In other words, you constantly pivoting to the "system abuse" argument is just a strawman at this point.

Quote:
Unchained barbarian is great, and was made for everyone playing tired of system abuse and clunky mechanics.

I'm guessing you consider Flight, Spell Sunder, Strength Surge, Ultimate Clarity and all the other stuff I brought up as "system abuse and clunky mechanics," then?

How terrible those Barbarian players must be, for selecting a rage power and doing exactly what it says that they can do. Such an abuse of the system! /s


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Derklord wrote:
Kaouse wrote:
I never said that driving around with a busted tire wasn't a problem. You're attacking a strawman and then immediately resorted to an ad hominem (saying that I refuse to adhere to logic).
Stop lying. You said "If a fix makes something worse, then it's completely unnecessary."

If a trip to the auto shop for a busted tire results in a fixed tire, but also broken/missing windows and signal lights, then YES, that trip to the auto shop was completely unnecessary. The class had problems before Unchained. After Unchained it has more, albeit different, problems. That's what I call an unnecessary fix.

At this point, we're arguing semantics because you can't bring yourself to admit that Unchained made the class worse overall, even for people who weren't abusing rage cycling.

Cavall wrote:

For what it's worth I think the idea of rage cycling being played off as a great RP opportunity is the biggest lie in this entire thread.

It's supposed to be rage, as in uncontrollable anger. Not a guy popping uppers and downers every other round.

It's pure system abuse. Nothing more. There is nothing stopping someone from having the same RP for unchained other than said system abuse.

Yeah, I disagree, and I've already stated my reasons why.

Super Saiyan transformations also used to be expressions of pure, unbridled rage, too. Now look at them. They're casual modes of power that the characters can turn on and off at will. A quiet expression of power is something widely seen across all media.

Surprise! Other people have different opinions than you when it comes to the fluff of a core mechanic!

If I had to guess though, the real problem here is the same problem that people have with every martial once they start gaining decent options - the "it's not realistic, so it breaks my immersion" argument.

Ignoring the fact that I've already laid out a way in which it could easily be fluffed to be realistic, this argument is a rather silly one to hold in a game with wizards and sorcerers stopping time, creating their own demiplanes, turning invisible, etc.

Worse still, even if I accept the premise that rage cycling was flawed and needed fixing, it still doesn't address the fact that the class was made irrevocably worse even for players who don't abuse rage cycling.

The loss of specific rage powers with high narrative strength like Spell Sunder, Flight and Ultimate Clarity, rage powers being made incompatible with one another through the Stance mechanic, and rage powers going from once/rage to once/day (instead of something more reasonable like once/minute), are all things that harm players who didn't abuse rage cycling. Either address these points, or admit that the Unchained Barbarian, while fixing some core issues, still introduced other issues that weakened the class overall.


I never said that driving around with a busted tire wasn't a problem. You're attacking a strawman and then immediately resorted to an ad hominem (saying that I refuse to adhere to logic).

We agree that Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome (the broken tire in my example) was a problem, yes?

We also agree that Unchained Barbarian's loss of flight and other rage powers (the missing windows and signal lights) is also a problem, yes?

So in essence, we took our car (the class) to the mechanic (the developers) to fix a specific problem (Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome) and ended up with a car missing some of it's previous key components (Flight, Spell Sunder, Ultimate Clarity, etc.), but with the previous problem (SBDS/the tire) being fixed.

What part of this example is logically inconsistent?


Derklord wrote:
Your argumentation is backwards. Just because a fix wasn't good, doesn't mean the fix wasn't necessary.

On the contrary. If a fix makes something worse, then it's completely unnecessary. If you take your car to auto shop to fix a busted tire and the thing comes back with 4 broken windows and no working signal lights, you're not gonna be okay because the tire is fixed, are you?

No, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it is broke, only fix what's broken, don't mess with everything else.

Quote:

In this very thread I wrote "The class could do with a) a rage power to fly", four months befor your first post. I copy pasted that statement in my response to your first thread. So either you literally don't read my posts, or you're deliberately misrepresenting my point of view. I even said "I mostly agree on your basic points", meaning I do agree that unBarb should have more upsides beside doing damage. I celebrated the oversight of unMonk having access to Empty Body at 4th level for this exact reason, because "thanks to that, unMonk has a cool but not overpowered ability that grants the class much needed versatility."

But this doesn't change the fact that the choice to make an unchained Barbarian was good, only that the choices of how to rework rage powers (both in writign the new ones and selecting allowed old ones) wasn't.

The choice to leave the Unchained Barbarian without access to flight was an intentional one on the part of the developers. So too, was the choice to nerf a number of rage powers into irrelevancy. Weakening the Barbarian class was every bit as much the "point" of the Unchained Barbarian, just like weakening the Summoner was the "point" of the Unchained Summoner. They just weren't as forthcoming as they were with the latter.

Which brings me to my next point - an Unchained version of the class wasn't needed. Especially to fix what is at it's core, a single issue - Rage. You know what they could have done instead? Given the class a reprint! Feats and spells get reprints and erratas all the time, why not reprint a class feature to avoid the issue of Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome (and if necessary, tackle rage cycling at the same time)?

You know what else they could have done? Create an archetype with the changed Rage mechanic! This new rage would have a clause that prevents death, and might also have a clause preventing rage cycling. They could even force PFS players to use this version of the Barbarian, just like they force Summoners to play Unchained.

Quote:
Kaouse wrote:
The only issue that the Barbarian needed "fixing" was dropping dead when leaving Rage, and Raging Vitality already fixed that.
Needing a feat from a later book is not a "fix". Especially since players are likely to not realize the problem until it actually affects them.

Um, there are a ton of "fix" feats. Just look at the Fighter with Item Mastery feats. Or the Medium with Legendary Influence. There's a host of feats that are specifically meant to help fix a class with serious issues. There's nothing wrong with having players pick up Raging Vitality to fix the single issue with the class.

Or just do what I do when I play Barbarian, and not adjust my HP when I rage. Helps me keep conscious of my true limits. There are a ton of things that unaware newbie players need to be kept conscious of. Like playing a martial with no access to flight being forced to sit in the corner against a flying foe cuz they didn't have a decent ranged option prepared.

Quote:
Ragecycling is a cheezy abuse that hampers roleplaying, there's no arguing that. In a roleplaying game, having an option that prevents roleplaying mechanically highly desirable is an issue that needs fixing. Rage cycling basically brakes the "stormwind fallacy".

Yeah, see, I disagree. Rage Cycling is an interesting mechanic that is great to roleplay, because it means that you are in control of your own emotions, rather than the other way around. The ability to shift your mood instantaneously from jovial to serious and then back to normal is seen in a lot of places in media.

Wrath, from Full Metal Alchemist (Manga/Brotherhood version) is a good example of this. Despite being the Homonculous embodying the emotion closest to Rage, he himself is always cool, measured and collected. He can go from a happy smile to a serious death glare in an instant. Goku, from DBZ, can do the same. He can have a chat with somebody, go all serious to block an attack, then go right on back to having a chat with them.

Even the ability to control your emotions and change them on a dime is something that can be seen as emotional training, which is literally what happens in the final training arc for Gash Bell [1](Zatch Bell in English, though the anime adaptation never made it to the final arc where this happens).

Long story short, different people have different opinions and what you may think is "breaking immersion" may be perfectly in line with what somebody else believes. I do not believe that Rage Cycling is an issue that requires fixing, and I think that the Unchained Barbarian's "fix" to the issue is far worse than the issue ever was.


The only issue that the Barbarian needed "fixing" was dropping dead when leaving Rage, and Raging Vitality already fixed that. Unless you think that a martial class getting access to stuff like Flight, Spell Sunder, Strength Surge, Ultimate Clarity etc. was an "issue," then Unchained Barbarian caused more problems than it solved, IMHO.

Even if you think rage cycling was an "issue" that absolutely needed to be solved, it would have been easy to prevent abuse by making them once per minute, rather than once per day. Which is exactly what they ended up doing for the Unchained Barbarian's temp HP, anyway.


Umm...no iteratives means that natural attacks are stronger than Two Weapon Fighting, since you can get the same number of attacks (if not more) at your full attack bonus, rather than at -5/-10/-15 to hit (not including the inherent -2 or more you already take for using Two Weapon Fighting).

Not that it matters, since even if the Barbarian can deal high amounts of damage with Pounce, they're still lacking in utility that they can bring to a party. That's my major qualm right now.


I suggest looking at the Occultist, especially their Panoplies. Mage's Paraphernalia makes you a great caster, while Trappings of the Warrior make you a great martial. It takes a while, but you can actually have both in the base class.

As a lover of all things gish, Occultist has already overtaken both Magus and Inquisitor in my heart as my number one most favorite class.


Quite frankly, "associate with these creatures [Wereboars]" can be easily made a part of one's backstory.

Not like it matters much though. You seem to be missing my major point with all of my posts. That is, that the Unchained Barbarian has lost huge amounts of utility and is pigeonholed into being purely a damage dealer.

Can you address the loss of Spell Sunder, Flight, Ultimate Clarity, Strength Surge, and all of the other "once per rage" powers, etc.?

Yes, yes, I can admit that the Unchained Barbarian can still deal damage, but the question is, what else can it do besides damage?

Even without spells, Paladins have team-wide auras as well as healing abilities with Lay on Hands and Mercies. Rangers have scouting and tracking. Outside of damage, what can an Unchained Barbarian do? The class has gone from Tier 4 to Tier 5, nerfed down to the same level as Fighter.

And for all this talk about playtime vs theory, how often do you face a flying enemy, in Pathfinder? How does an Unchained Barbarian deal with a flying enemy? Buy Wings of Flying? Buy a magic carpet? Or more likely, hope your friend would rather spend time and resources buffing you instead of dealing directly with the threat at hand?

I'm getting a little bit off topic, but non self sufficient martials are nothing more than a drain on the party's resources. Their share of the loot would be infinitely better spent on a planar ally, or better yet, a crafted Construct. The Core Barbarian was one of the few martials truly able to justify their place on a team. They didn't need to be "enabled" to deal damage, and they also brought extra utility in the form of Spell Sunder, and even some decent control options with Strength Surge as well as Come and Get Me.

The Unchained Barbarian has none of that. They have nothing to offer a team outside of dealing damage.


Unchained Barbarian also doesn't have Strength Surge, instead having "Strength Stance" as a replacement. Unfortunately, it's a replacement at one quarter the power.

So the Core Barbarian is better at 2 handed weapons, better at combat maneuvers, better at retaliatory strikes (can use Come and Get Me in combination with Reckless Abandon and Strength Surge), and much better at dispelling enemy magic. Core Barbarian can also fly on their own, and can see through darkness and illusions if they so choose.

The Unchained Barbarian is better at two weapon fighting, and at not dying when they go unconcious, saving one feat in each of those cases over the Core Barbarian (Double Slice & Raging Vitality respectively).

Pretty much an all-around nerf, IMHO. Like I said, every bit of utility is gone. Quite a bit of mechanical power was also removed. Even when it comes to getting crits, Core Barbarian is still better at that, thanks to Boar's Charge.

That said, I do like the Unchained Monk and Rogue though.


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Even if Rage cycling wasn't meant to be abused as a once per round type of thing, it was always clear that those rage powers were at least designed to be used once per encounter. We can agree on that, correct?

If so, then you must also agree that said "once per rage/encounter" abilities turning into "once per day" abilities, is a nerf even for those playing the class as intended, no?

As for double digit levels, quite a few were available from level 6 at the earliest. Notably, Spell Sunder, for example. Can you address how huge the loss of Spell Sunder is for this class? Even ignoring rage cycling, the ability to suppress/dispel external magical effects on demand made Barbarians a great class.

It wasn't just something to use on Pounce targets, on the contrary! It actually gave them something viable to do out of combat, and many consider it to be a new niche that not many other martial classes could boast of.

In other words, the main problem I have with the Unchained Barbarian isn't so much a loss of power, as it is a loss of versatility. I once made a build of a "smart" Barbarian who boosted his skills with Auspicous Mark, and buffed his Spellcraft skill for Spell Sunder. This way, I could fluff him studying a spell intensely (entering Rage, which I renamed "Focus"), having a "Eureka moment" (Auspicious Mark) and then dismantling the spell with a bit of calculated applied force (Spell Sunder). For further fun, he had Ultimate Clarity, to see through disguises and illusions. He wasn't super focused on damage, but he was super useful to a party and still somewhat tanky.

His entire build will be impossible to play as an Unchained Barbarian. Basically, the Unchained Barbarian pigeonholed the class into damage dealer and nothing more, robbing the Barbarian of what little utility and self-sufficiency they had left. If that's not a nerf, I don't know what is.


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Unchained Barbarian is a massive downgrade.

Loss of stat bonuses means loss of compatibility with stuff like Raging Brutality. It also means that the Unchained Barbarian has a weaker Fortitude save. When 2-handing a weapon (the most viable and least feat intensive option for a class with no bonus feats but loves to take Extra Rage Power), loss of the stat increase means less damage. It can't even make use of archery (the most effective combat style), since the unchained rage only applies to melee attacks and thrown weapons specifically.

The stances may seem like a good idea, but in actuality are also a nerf to the class. This is because stances are incompatible with one another. This means that you can't have Accurate/Reckless Stance for the attack bonus AND Taunting Stance active at once. Yet a Core Barbarian could easily have Reckless Abandon AND Come and Get Me (the stance equivalents) going simultaneously without issue.

More importantly though, rage cycling was done away with entirely as all of the once/ per rage powers got changed to once per day. While some of you may think that race cycling was cheesy, it's also important to note that rage cycling was literally baked into the class as a level 17 class feature when the Barbarian gets Tireless Rage. As it stands now, level 17 for an Unchained Barbarian is pretty much worthless.

Piggybacking off of this issue, is the fact that a lot of rage powers just got straight up nerfed to the point of irrelevancy, or worse, no longer exist. The loss of Dragon Totem Wings and Greater Elemental Blood for flight really hurt, since the only other viable way to attain real flight is to use Wings of Flying (which take up the all-important Shoulder slot). Ultimate Clarity, while not too popular because of it's prerequisite rage powers, was also MIA in the transfer.

But by far, the worst offender has got to be what happened to Spell Sunder. It's been reduced to a s@!@ty add-on to Witch Hunter that only activates when you crit (i.e. not in your control), and on top of that, can no longer dispel, but only suppress a single effect for a single round. The complete loss of power and agency here is astounding. The niche for the Barbarian as a premier martial dispeller has been completely removed.

Even with the Temp HP change, I simply cannot see the Unchanined Barbarian as anything other than a substantial nerf to one of the few non-magical martial classes that was already in a decent place.


Are you asking if they still get the grappled condition, but automatically defeat it on their turn?


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Bracing for tropical storm, so apologies if I drop off the earth for a day or two.

Stay safe.


Kaouse wrote:

I'm looking into synergy. Specifically, the build I'm interested in is the following: Barbarian 4 / Fighter 4 / Ranger 4 / Monk 4 / Prestige Paladin 4.

From what I can tell, there's simply not enough levels to get all of the class synergy options. So the next best thing appears to be focusing on a single class and boost it as much as possible. For this, I chose the Barbarian, who also has the least in-class synergy options to start with.

Fighter takes Primal Warrior
Ranger takes Savage Hunter
Monk takes Savage Fist

Paladin gets an Archetype to boost all of them.

Each non-Barbarian class gets you Strong Synergy to your Rage, having you end up as a Virtual level 16 Barbarian. Instead of rage powers, you can choose Fighter Talents, Advanced Fighter Talents, Ranger Lore, Advanced Ranger Lore, as well as Monk Sutras, and Advanced Monk Sutras. You might even be able to get Paladin Spells as a Rage Power.

Funnily enough, the most effective way to level this would probably be to just take 1 level of each class, get their Barbarian synergy + Paladin archetypes going, then take your second level in Barbarian at level 6 with an effective barbarian level of level 5, assuming I've done my synergy calculations correctly.

At that level, you get your first rage power, which can be any of those basic things mentioned above. At which point, you only have 1 more rage power remaining. But, when you get to your 3rd level in any other non-Barbarian class though, you gain a talent that can be traded out for a Rage Power, and that Rage Power can be traded out for any of the aforementioned talents.

In that way you could sort of use synergy to cheat the system, but it cost a lot in getting there - all the synergy talents, for one. YMMV on whether this build is better or worse.

There's also the question of Theurgy to consider. There is a Ranger Lore that allows for theurgy between Ranger spells and Monk Ki powers. Furhtermore, Prestige Paladin can choose to apply theurgy to one prior class as well. Even Barbarians have the option to go for the Spirit Totem, which lets them apply Weak Theurgy to a spellcasting class of their choice.

That spellcasting class right now can be either Ranger, or Monk. Given how Monk looses a level of spellcasting capacity, I'm inclined to choose Ranger for this purpose.

In order to gain maximum Theurgy, we need to also select the Fighter Talent, Templar, to gain Weak Spellcasting Theurgy with the Ranger. This leaves us with the following:

Barbarian Rage Power: <UNUSED>
Barbarian Rage Power: <UNUSED>
Fighter Talent: Primal Warrior
Fighter Talent: Templar (Ranger)
Monk Sutra: Savage Fist
Monk Sutra: <UNUSED>
Ranger Lore: Savage Hunter
Ranger Lore: Asectic Hunter

So now at this point you can choose a bunch of stuff for talents, but you don't really have a lot of choices to make. You do still end up with Full BAB and Ranger Spellcasting Capacity 10, and while you don't have many high level abilities, you do still have synergy boosted lower level abilities, including Level 16 Mighty Rage and Level 12 Unarmed Mastery.

Each class still has it's own damage booster, so you'll definitely still be more than capable of dealing damage. But you'll lose out a bit on some of that "world-altering" power that Kirthfinder classes are meant to gain at high levels. Course, this can be easily solved with just taking the Leadership feat and being halfway decent at skills, I guess.

What I wonder now though, is if there's a way to use the Human Paragon along with the Prestige Paladin archetypes to break this further. Maybe by replacing the Fighter levels, I guess?

Also, level 8 Prestige Paladin might be a better stopping point, due to gaining 2 bonus feats (which can be spent on Fighter talents, if need be. Maybe replacing the Monk levels?


I'm looking into synergy. Specifically, the build I'm interested in is the following: Barbarian 4 / Fighter 4 / Ranger 4 / Monk 4 / Prestige Paladin 4.

From what I can tell, there's simply not enough levels to get all of the class synergy options. So the next best thing appears to be focusing on a single class and boost it as much as possible. For this, I chose the Barbarian, who also has the least in-class synergy options to start with.

Fighter takes Primal Warrior
Ranger takes Savage Hunter
Monk takes Savage Fist

Paladin gets an Archetype to boost all of them.

Each non-Barbarian class gets you Strong Synergy to your Rage, having you end up as a Virtual level 16 Barbarian. Instead of rage powers, you can choose Fighter Talents, Advanced Fighter Talents, Ranger Lore, Advanced Ranger Lore, as well as Monk Sutras, and Advanced Monk Sutras. You might even be able to get Paladin Spells as a Rage Power.

Funnily enough, the most effective way to level this would probably be to just take 1 level of each class, get their Barbarian synergy + Paladin archetypes going, then take your second level in Barbarian at level 6 with an effective barbarian level of level 5, assuming I've done my synergy calculations correctly.

At that level, you get your first rage power, which can be any of those basic things mentioned above. At which point, you only have 1 more rage power remaining. But, when you get to your 3rd level in any other non-Barbarian class though, you gain a talent that can be traded out for a Rage Power, and that Rage Power can be traded out for any of the aforementioned talents.

In that way you could sort of use synergy to cheat the system, but it cost a lot in getting there - all the synergy talents, for one. YMMV on whether this build is better or worse.


Would you like some help on converting specific spells?

While you might not care about publicity, it certainly helps those of us who are trying to get our own group of friends to try a new system.

Moving Kirthfinder out of the "Homebrew" category and into the "3rd Party" category would be a tremendous change in terms of how Kirthfinder is viewed and how willing people are to try it, IMHO.


If you were able to move all spellcasters into the seed spell system, couldn't you basically call Kirthfinder it's own system at that point, since it wouldn't rely on copyrighted spells?

I know Rogue Skill Tricks might need an overhaul, but it might be worth it, IMHO. You could probably get the Spheres Wiki to host it at that point, and thereby garner a lot of free publicity for the system.


If you want to nerf Rogue Skill Tricks to stop them from being infinite, I'd say just include a clause that says, "Every time you use a particular Skill Trick, the DC to do it again increases by 1" or something similar. The exact increase in DC can be fiddled around with at your discretion.

This way, they can't turn Greater Invisibility into permanent Invisibility, and have to spend more resources buffing their skill checks (which means less resources spent on killing things). This should definitely make Rogues a bit more cautious as to how often they can spam Skill Tricks.


I think the best option would be to drastically improve skills, such that they complete with spells. This is basically what Kirtfinder did (among other things), and it really helped make the martials cool and interesting without making them feel like spellcasters.


Just play an Inquisitor. Can detect any alignment and has Judgement in place of Smite. They even get Bane in place of Divine Bond.


Wonderstell wrote:

Angelfire Apostle

Power -1, Versatility +0
You lose one spell slot from each spell level for the ability to convert uses of channel energy into spell-like abilities of spells you already have access to.

It's important to note that spell-like abilities don't have material components. Free resurrections and restorations aren't bad, no? I really wouldn't call this a minus 1 in power, especially when it essentially lets you trade Channel Energies for spellcasting, and keeps you from having to have healing spells prepared.


When are we expected to level up, Kirth? Are we going by milestone or by EXP? If it's by EXP, then me and Kolmac would probably be a little bit behind Aemur and Dairkul, who fought the ghouls.


Sanctified Slayer + Ravener Hunter Inquisitor w/ VMC Rogue. Full Sneak Attack, access to Trapfinding, access to slayer talents, etc. All the benefit of being a Rogue with none of the downsides, IMHO.


A Paladin will always have a good time in Wrath of the Righteous. In my limited experience, at least.


Spells >> No Spells.
Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue >> Horizon Walker Slayer


Spell Cartridges is pretty good, lets you deal force damage and you never have to worry about ammo. I'd also suggest considering the possibility of NOT dipping Spell Slinger Wizard, and instead just going all 15 levels in Magus. Level 15 Magus gets some great stuff, like the ability to enhance his weapon with Bane, or the ability to Reflect enemy spells.


Zepheri wrote:
Best solution take the 100k and pay a Slayer lv 20 to kill him

Why a Slayer? At least if you had said a Level 20 Ninja I might have been able to take you seriously, but a Level 20 Slayer? What's that going to accomplish?


And that's why you take the Thoughtful Wishmaker trait, to ensure that your GM the genie can't mess around with your wishes. Alternatively, put a lot of ranks into Profession (barrister) and Sense Motive.


Hey Kirth, what do you think of the idea of making it so that people who fall unconscious, don't actually "fall" until they reach their turn in the initiative? I'd imagine that they'd just teeter on their feet like a Mortal Kombat character does before the "Finish Him!" animations.

Would it be worth it to slaughter that sacred cow? Cuz I kind of think that your character is being penalized enough for loosing HP, and having to fall and then get back up even if you are healed before your turn is kind of a double jeopardy, IMHO.


I'm a little bit sad that our Fighter isn't a Barbarian instead. Cuz then we would have had a d4 wizard, a d6 archivist, a d8 rogue, a d10 ranger, and a d12 barbarian for maximal coverage. But that's just for the lols. Fighter is just as good as Barbarian, and arguably better when it comes to defending a party, which is pretty important in Kirthfinder it seems.


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Okay, so I looked through everyone's builds. Apparently, neither the Fighter nor the Ranger have much in the way of Ranged Attacks. The Rogue does, at least. And the Ranger has a reach weapon, which is nice.

So I'm currently thinking of a small adjustment to the marching orders. Rather than walking in a straight line, we'd be walking in a "+" configuration.

Kolmac is at the center, surrounded on all sides by everyone else. Cayden is in the front as our Vanguard Shield Fighter. Aemur still brings up the rear since he has reach on his glaives.

Eshkeval and Dairkal then will have to take up the left and right sides respectively. This opens us up for attack on our sides, but hopefully Aemur should be able to cover those areas with his reach.

More importantly, this configuration enables Eshkeval to touch Aemur and Cayden and affect them with Dimensional Skip, putting them into battle quickly while negating their lack of ranged attacks.

Since Dairkul already possesses a ranged attack, Eshkeval being unable to reach him easily isn't as big of a deal. Dairkul is also still close enough to the front to point out traps and other hazards, so this should still work out.

What do you guys think?


Kolmac is definitely in the middle then, as a squishy d4 wizard. He'll be sandwiched between Dairkul (in the front) and Eshkeval (in the back). We'll have Cayden (our Fighter IIRC?) stay in front, while Aemur, our Ranger, brings up the rear.

This way we have a frontline martial both forwards and back (Cayden & Aemur), as well as a skilled watchman on either side as well (Dairkul & Aemur). This leaves our wizard to be the most protected, and gives him easy access to buff the full party.

That said, I haven't really looked too deeply into Cayden and Aemur's respective builds. I would hope that the Ranger has some ranged attacks in his repetoire. If he doesn't, but the Fighter does, then we'll flip everyone's position. If neither of them have ranged attacks...then they should get ranged attacks. Alternatively, they could invest in a more defensive fighting style to keep Kolmac and I alive.

I'll stick around with Kolmac and try and keep him safe. I'm not particularly tanky as an Archivist, but I did roll awesome stats and my defenses are pretty optimized, at least for now, at this level. The two of us can also pew pew with ranged attacks to help out in combat.

This should keep us pretty safe moving foraward, though ambushes at level 1 will still be incredibly threatening. It also sucks vs AoE attacks, but I think there are Fighter abilities that counter that, plus such AoE isn't something we're likely to run into until later, and most AoE magic has been nerfed anyway.


Dairkal, if you want to reroll your initative, feel free to do so. One of those tree monsters is left, but you should be at max hp, and you, Cayden and Aemur have yet to actually go in combat. I think it should have less than 3 health, so I think we've got this combat in the bag, thanks to luck and hero points.


Note that the extra damage from Vital Strike is NOT multiplied on a critical hit. The same goes for the extra damage from Mythic Vital Strike.


So, question time. These guys just got healed before ever reaching their turn. Does that mean that they don't need to roll saves for being dazed or whatever else have you? Do they roll those saves when hit, or on their own turn? Actually, considering the fact that they went into negatives and thus became unconscious, does that clear them of their previous ailment of being dazed or whatever else have you?

Also, hero points. Did we start out with 1 or 2? Furthermore, would rolling double max on my Channel Energy + Hero point roll be considered an "awesome outcome" enough for me to regain a hero point?


Also, Kolmac, can you identify the creatures? If they're undead then they just took a ton of damage from my Channel Energy.


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Holy f&~#, I'm on a roll this week. Defended my dissertation and now I just rolled max on my Channel Energy + Hero Point roll. I hope this gets our fallen friends back to maximum health. If nothing else, that should negate their ambush advantage over us, giving us much better odds of winning this fight without a single death.


Yeah, the problem cleared up real quick. I dunno why, but I couldn't open up any of the Kirthfinder docs, but I was able to open up other google drive documents, so it was weird.

That said, problem fixed itself in like, 10 minutes.


Anybody have any trouble opening up the Kirthfinder google drive documents? Or is it just me?


Alchemist is probably the best Wizard Gestalt partner, if what you want is to enhance the Wizard aspects most of all. Alchemsits can gain Cognatogen which increases their INT and other mental scores the way Mutagen does for physical scores. Alchemist + Wizard also gets all good saves, and Alchemists are certainly no slouches when it comes to combat either. They also fit really well thematically, too, since you can get both Alchemist Discoveries and Wizard Discoveries.


Nice to know that ABP works the way I thought it did. Looks like I don't have to make any changes to my character sheet. I can't wait for the chance to play him.


Ah, that's unfortunate. I already have a level 8 tristalt character, so making him level 7 and Mythic Tier 1 wouldn't have been too difficult.


Ah, that reminds me, Automatic Bonus Progression and the Soulknife, how does that work, exactly? I think I just stacked the weapon enhancements together, but if you don't want them to stack, I can change it.

One GM I played with suggested not allowing the Soulknife to gain weapon enhancement bonus, but instead allowed them to choose pretty much any weapon special ability to compensate. Same with classes like the Magus, and whatnot. But that's just one suggestion. How do you want to handle it?


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doc roc wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
You get third domain and automatically know whether your deity would approve or disapprove (or be indifferent) to any action you do.

Dear oh dear... LOL

I shouldn't be surprised the old cleric got one final kick in the knackers from Paizo.... heaven forbid it actually gets something interesting and/or useful as a capstone!

If you're a 20th level cleric and you dont know how you should be acting there is something going badly wrong!.....And as for getting a 3rd domain... what possible domain powers are gonna be worth having/using and since you only have 1 domain slot per level, the domain spells wont be much use either! And as always half the time your domain spells are ones that clerics get anyway!

I'll say it one last time.... Paizo just doesn't get the cleric class

I dunno, dude. Domains are pretty powerful on their own, even without spells. Just ask Inquisitors, who get a domain but don't get domain spells to begin with.

Getting the abilities of a third domain for FREE is a strong ability. Certainly better than not having a capstone at all.


Unfortunately, the Bloodline mutations are specific to sorcerers and bloodragers only. Bloodline arcanists and other archetypes that give bloodlines don't count, I'm afraid. Course, GM rule overrides all, so feel free to ask the GM.


Spheres of Power has an Advanced Destruction Talent called Penetrating Blast that lets you reduce enemy resistance by an amount equal to your caster level, or double your caster level if you spend a spell point. It also lets you treat energy immunity as energy resistance 40 for this purpose. But it only works for Destructive Blast, IIRC.

Mageknight has a mystic combat called Mark of Pain that reduces enemy DR and energy resistance by an amount equal to their level after they've marked a target. But this requires 7 levels of Mageknight.

I believe that there is also a totem that reduces enemy DR, energy resistance and even spell resistance by an amount equal to caster level...but it only applies to outsiders who are not on their home plane.

Outside of those examples, I dunno many examples that are available to you outside of mythic. Course, if City of 7 Seraphs is allowed, you might be able to enter the High Aspirant prestige class for some limited access to mythic stuff. Course, that depends on GM fiat.


Koro took the Radiant Dawn Discipline, so he also has access to healing if need be. Between Lifeburst Strike and Shatter Spell, he should be able to cover most conditions, with the exception of stuff like ability damage or drain, I think. He also has an Alchemy Salve to heal hit point damage, but it should be rarely used since he has a lot of damage mitigation (DR/- + Resilient Momentum) as well as threat management (i.e. Guardian Challenge).

As for the Infiltrator stuff he gained, Gloves of the Master Thief [Veil] lets him disarm traps (including magic traps) with a rather significant bonus. If he's using the Trickster Path for the Living Legend, he can stealth anywhere, even while observed. Furthermore, the psibertech Decevier's Prosthesis lets him change his appearance at will, as per minor metamorphosis. Lastly, Spectacles of the Shiekh allows him to always know whenever someone attempts to observe either him or a person within 30 ft of him via divination.


Yeah, Koro has access to a lot of different systems, which is why I gave him a minor artifact that can help mix things a little bit better without being ludicrously overpowered. Really, it won't even see much use until later levels, heh. (I'm actually worried it might be a bit underpowered, given that essence burn recovers by one per minute, but psionic power points don't recover at all until the next day).

At any rate, I've altered the character to level 10. As it turns out, Koro got access to some pretty sweet abilities that make him really good at infiltration now, as well. He's even got some decent counter-infiltration stuff going on, too.

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