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I prefer quality over speed here.
Getting the miniatures next year in good quality is way better than getting them in bad quality or only getting parts of them.
The best outcome of this would be when everyone gets their stuff in the good quality and Ninja Division learns from their shortcomings, so they can produce tons of even better minis and games in the future.
Finger pointing and punishments don't serve anybody.
Even releasing the files, especially prematurely, wouldn't help anyone but the most selfish people out there.
I mean come on, releasting files of your project to a circle as large as the backers here, you can release them to the public, all the same.
And i bet we would meet some super clever person trying to sell the prints of those files.
Also i daresay most people don't have access to a qualitative 3D Printer.
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I think Paizo's obligation is to do the best they can to ensure this Kickstarter is successful - and from what they've said, they are continuing to try and help make this KS into an eventual success, rather than an ultimate failure.
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I prefer quality over speed here.
Getting the miniatures next year in good quality is way better than getting them in bad quality or only getting parts of them.
The best outcome of this would be when everyone gets their stuff in the good quality and Ninja Division learns from their shortcomings, so they can produce tons of even better minis and games in the future.Finger pointing and punishments don't serve anybody.
Except that this has happened to ninja division THREE times already prior to the deal with paizo.
At what point do you conclude that Lucy is either the most inept ball holder ever OR that they're pulling the ball away on purpose?
The Finger pointing HAS served people. It's served other businesses and other customers who would have otherwise lost money in this. They've either not gone in on other kickstarters, or tossed ND off their projects.
It's served as a warning that no, you cannot just take the kickstarter and not deliver, change your name, and keep doing the same old thing.
It just hasn't served the people who've lost money and nothing will. There is no remotely viable mechanism for ninja division to get people these miniatures. They have already spent the money paying themselves and their rent: it's gone. No one is going to buy Ninja Division/Sodapop. It's just a big pile of debt and bad rep at this point. Unless their sculptor lives in a cave under the studio only accessable through a hatch they don't have anything unique they can offer.
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And at 2 1/2 weeks since customer service’s last post in spite of direct questions and non aggressive inquiries....I think we can safely say that they’ve abandoned us as well
Personally I’ll wait to reach that conclusion. Once they start deleting posts, locking this thread and banning users I’ll be more inclined to believe it. If Paizo were to reach a decision to wash their hands of this project it wouldn’t make sense to keep this thread open, nor to allow discussion to continue on their site.
It’s taking longer than I’d like (given Erik was discussing this with the executive team some weeks back) and I’m annoyed at the prioritisation given to communication here - but there’s a lot of room between the timeframe I’d like and abandonment.
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And at 2 1/2 weeks since customer service’s last post in spite of direct questions and non aggressive inquiries....I think we can safely say that they’ve abandoned us as well
I’m still here. Like before, there’s nothing I can say or any information I have that you don’t.
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Customer Service says they are here, they should be able to answer each and everyone of these questions.
Customer Service deals with us, not Ninja Division. Sara Marie only recently got to start sitting in on the meeting between them and Paizo.
Customer Service says they are here, they should be able to answer each and everyone of these questions.Customer Service deals with us, not Ninja Division. Sara Marie only recently got to start sitting in on the meeting between them and Paizo.My questions deal 100% with Customer Service dealing with their co-workers at Paizo. I would not expect them to work with or contact Ninja Division.
I was not aware that Sara Marie was sitting in on 'the meeting' between Ninja Division and Paizo. I certainly hope there has been more than one meeting and I look forward to Sara Marie providing a substantive update of what occurred at those meetings.
Sara Marie, how many meetings have you attended between Ninja Division and Paizo? Can you update us as to what occurred?
*dig dig dig*
Ah, my apologies. She got to sit in on one meeting.
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I don't have any information you don't also have. I am a ground level employee. I and my coworkers bring this thread up every day. We press our bosses about it. We are not privy to any legal information, we are not invited to any meetings with or about Ninja Division, we do not make any decisions regarding licensing nor are we consulted on them. We are not invited to executive meetings.
So, to answer your questions:
Yes. We ask about it every day. Sometimes I am more snide about it than I should be because I am frustrated. No information is given to us.
I have no idea what NDAs or legalities exist between Paizo and Ninja Division. I'm not given that kind of information.
I have no idea what Paizo may have done, is doing, or may do in the future regarding any NDAs or legalities with Ninja Division. I am not given that information.
I have inquired numerous times about whether any executive is going to make a statement. I have been told that yes, the Publisher intends to. I don't know why the Publisher has not made one yet.
Sometimes I am more snide about it than I should be because I am frustrated.
*snerk* I like you, you're my kind of person. I do this at work quite often for some of the shenanigans we have to deal with.
Frankly I think I go borderline insolent, but I'm such a calm and mellow person, the snark I use helps accentuate that the problem we're addressing has crossed some sort of line and feel it's being handled inadequately/not taken seriously.
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*pokes in head*
Yup, still a garbage fire. *reads it over* And now they're openly saying mean stuff to the Paizo Employees, as if they have your money in their back pocket.
They don't and you're not helping your case.
*pokes in head*
Yup, still a garbage fire. *reads it over* And now they're openly saying mean stuff to the Paizo Employees, as if they have your money in their back pocket.
They don't and you're not helping your case.
No, it's this type of trollish behavior from the apologists that doesn't help. You note that it's "still a garbage fire," but you're pouring gasoline on it.
And being mean? Silas thanked Diego Valdez. I would like to thank him, too. I think people have been generally courteous to Sara Marie, too. I appreciate her efforts as well. I don't fault the Customer Service folks; rather, I am sympathetic to them.
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No, it's this type of trollish behavior from the apologists that doesn't help.*sigh*
And being mean? Silas thanked Diego Valdez. I would like to thank him, too. I think people have been generally courteous to Sara Marie, too.
I'd read the whole thread.
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I apologize for missing your questions Robert. My answers are going to unfortunately be very similar to the ones I had for Silas.
I don't know who owns the sculpts. That is licensing information that I am not privy to and not given.
Likewise, I am not invited to the licensing meetings and don't know what options may be available or being considered.
No, it's this type of trollish behavior from the apologists that doesn't help.*sigh*And being mean? Silas thanked Diego Valdez. I would like to thank him, too. I think people have been generally courteous to Sara Marie, too.I'd read the whole thread.
I have, obviously, as I have posted occasionally over the past 3 months. But, by all means, continue to pour gas.
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So, I want to address the back and forth that has just recently started. I am not putting this in mod quotes, and I considered posting on an alias to express that I was doing it as an individual and not as a representative of Paizo. Folks could click it and know who I was but I decided it was best not to do that.
Our team in customer service is made up of people who have made careers out of service industry. I had my first job as a courtesy clerk/cashier at my towns local grocery store when I was 14. I'll be turning 38 this year. People who have been in service industry for as long as my coworkers and myself have been tend to be people who want to help. From the time I have spent with my coworkers I can tell you that their reaction to just about anything is to try to find a way to help the customer. This situation is not different in that. It can be very difficult to for us to find ourselves in a situation where despite our efforts we cannot. For my part, I admit that I did take a lot of the no one at Paizo cares comments pretty personally. I shouldn't have, but I did. My first post in this thread is a lot more defensive than it should have been and I regret that. As an individual with feelings I appreciate the folks who came to my and Sara's defense.
But.
It is important for both myself and those folks to remember the situation the other posters are in. I can't even imagine having given as much as $400. That is a LOT of money. For some people it likely represents as good chunk of saved up luxury budget, and even for those who have more ready access to it it is still a sizable chunk of money. There is reasonable and justified anger over this. When someone like Sara or myself come into a thread like this we may be the only representatives of the company folks are able to directly interact with. While I don't think anyone likes being the focus for even justified anger I don't have any interest in shutting down anyone's feelings and I think it is fair for people to express them. I have a scar on my thumb where a customer at one of my previous jobs stabbed me with a screwdriver. We're not anywhere close to that here. Not even close. In something like this what it represents is that I understand what people are feeling and if anyone needs to explode or lash out a little I understand that too. If it's going to help, I can take it (unless it involves stabbing me, please don't do that). So, while I appreciate the defense of me, I hope we can all try to be supportive of everyone who participated in this kickstarter as well.
For all of us, lets try to remember that the rules of the forum still apply to this thread. I think all of us in customer service would rather not have to moderate this thread for a variety of reasons.
Lastly, I would like to say thank you for your post, Silas. I understand where you are coming from and I think my feelings on this may mirror yours in many ways.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Everyone,
Before I say anything else I want to say that I’m sorry my absence here has contributed to furthering anyone’s frustration and ill will.
Many of you have expressed that it was my vouching for Ninja Division in the early days of this project that pushed you over the line to make a pledge. If that’s the case with your decision to back, I also apologize to you. I certainly had much higher expectations that have not been met. I was very impressed with Ninja Division’s sculpting abilities and design expertise, and at the time we partnered with them they gave me reason to believe that the various setbacks they had encountered up to that point were unique and in the process of being handled. That gave me faith in them that they have not backed up with action, and I understand your frustration—and share it.
I actually drafted a statement a few weeks ago, around the time that mention of such a thing began to appear in this space. The message was emotional and visceral and very critical of Ninja Division’s failures. Many of you would have identified with its sentiment, I am sure. I ultimately decided to hold off on posting it when I heard that I’d have a chance to meet with Ninja Division at the GAMA Trade show. Rather than excoriate them in public, I wanted to get a chance to look them in the face and share my feelings (and many of yours) in person, to get a better sense of exactly where they were at and how likely they were to get everyone what they paid for.
I can tell you that at GAMA Trade Show I looked these guys in the eyes and confronted them in person about their ability to live up to their commitments to us and to their backers. They have suffered a tremendous number of setbacks and blows over the last couple of years (many of them self-inflicted, to be sure). I left the conversation confident that they have plans in place to get the funding necessary to live up to their commitments to us and to their backers, but I cannot say with confidence whether those plans will be successful.
I can say that both John and Deke struck me as deeply committed to finding a way to make this work. They want desperately to fulfill this project, and I am convinced that they are working hard to make that happen. Is desire and gumption enough to get them over the finish line? That I confess I do not know. All I know is that the will is there.
Ninja Division has made a commitment to fulfill this Kickstarter. We want to continue to give them the opportunity to live up to that commitment. I can certainly understand (and to some degree share) any skepticism regarding their ability to deliver after so many setbacks. They are trying, and there is enough reason for optimism that we don’t feel the right choice is to cancel the project outright.
We want you to get your miniatures. Heck, I want my miniatures, too. I left GAMA without a clear road map or timetable as to when Ninja will be able to arrange the necessary financing to move forward with the line (beyond “as soon as possible”), but I absolutely believe these guys are working actively to solve this problem, even if a potential solution is likely to occur much, much, much later than any of us would have preferred.
We will keep you updated on future developments as they become available to us. Again, I’m sorry for not taking a more active role in this thread. I will do my best to check in more frequently in the future, and hope to have better news to convey as we move forward.
Please know that we are actively monitoring the situation with Ninja Division’s business developments as well as the posts on this thread. We may not always respond in a timely manner (and I have done an especially bad job of this on this topic), but we DO hear you are we continue to work toward a better solution for everybody.
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I didn't back the Kickstarter and I have no particular stake in its outcome - but as someone watching from the outside, I'd also like to thank you for taking the time to make a statement. I'm sure this isn't the situation anyone wanted, but I still hope that ultimately, people get what they paid for.
Thanks for the comment, Erik. I must admit I don't share your optimism regarding this project, although you're clearly much closer to the action than I am, so hopefully I'm wrong. My experience is that the longer a business venture runs while "looking for financial support" the less and less likely it is that anything will come of it. Fingers crossed there is some viable way out for them.
I would like to comment on the following, but want to be clear that I don't feel I'm owed an answer. For me, the lingering ill-feeling/confusion stems from the support Paizo expressed in Ninja Division's ability to deliver the project. I backed this project on launch, then read lots of online stuff about how terrible ND were at delivery and pulled out. I never had any worry that the minis wouldn't be great quality. I chose to back the project again after reading the comments from you early on in this thread.
I didn't take it as any kind of guarantee, but it does put me in the category you refer to below:
Many of you have expressed that it was my vouching for Ninja Division in the early days of this project that pushed you over the line to make a pledge. If that’s the case with your decision to back, I also apologize to you. I certainly had much higher expectations that have not been met. I was very impressed with Ninja Division’s sculpting abilities and design expertise, and at the time we partnered with them they gave me reason to believe that the various setbacks they had encountered up to that point were unique and in the process of being handled. That gave me faith in them that they have not backed up with action, and I understand your frustration—and share it.
The lingering doubt this has left me with has made me question whether to back similar projects that have since come up. I'm still supporting Paizo, obviously but on licensed products (the prime example being the Seoni statues Dynamite produced) my support was considerably more tepid than it has been in the past.
For me, it would be useful to know how you'd now judge your assurances based on discussions with Ninja Division - the outcome obviously isn't how you'd have liked it, but I more mean whether you think your confidence was warranted and things just got unlucky or whether you should really have known better.
With regard to the bolded part above - do you think you were misled by them (albeit that may well have been naivety on their part, not maliciousness) or do you think you just heard what you wanted to hear and didn't really listen to danger signs you should probably have picked up on?
Again - I don't feel I'm owed an answer to that, but it would help me sort through where things stand and how it all happened the way it did. From my perspective, this is one small blip in twelve years of great interactions with Paizo and associated companies. I don't want to blow it out of proportion - if you never said anything about it, it wouldn't stop me from continuing to support the company. Nonetheless, even small events can feel lousy and I'd appreciate any light you'd be willing to shed on that.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Let me clarify. For a long while, long after I posed that I had faith in them, they were doing the right things. Their prepainted minis came along slower than I wanted, but when they delivered they were overall pretty darn good, and I was pleased with the production and approvals process.
Their sculpts all came in good to great, as expected. ND was very professional at all steps of the early parts of the process. So even well into the relationship I felt like they had things on track.
Should I have been more cautious, less trusting? Yeah, probably.
Am I now? Yeah, certainly.
If it helps, I don't really trust anyone anymore, for pretty much any reason.
Sorry for (the vast majority of) my vitriol.