Miniatures Kickstarter Ninja Division


Third-Party Starfinder Products

451 to 500 of 1,139 << first < prev | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | next > last >>

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kroothawk wrote:
I think in US law, companies that sell products for about half a million dollar and then don't deliver anything, can be hold liable and sued for that. The kickstarter page lists ND and Paizo as the responsible companies till today. We the customers ask them if they intend to fullfill the contract, otherwise we are free to sue them. That's what the Better Business Bureau suggests. Customers are not helpless victims in US law, even if the liable companies refuse to communicate.

The difficulty here is the amount of the relative claim, even with all in pledges, is not generally worth the effort to sue for that amount individually. Especially considering where Ninja Division is located verses the backer. If your in another state, or even country, the cost litigation itself, even appearing without a lawyer, is not economically feasible considering the amount of potential recovery. The only way it would be economically feasible is if the litigation would be done as a class action. Then, of course, you have determine if there is something to recover to make the whole enterprise worthwhile.

Now, as for the posts along the lines of Kickstarter is supporting the artist, you can't do anything if they fail, well, I disagree and the more I read is completely wrong.

Delving further into the Kickstarter web page, under "What should creators do if they're having problems completing their project?" The last paragraph is interesting: "If the problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their project, creators need to find a resolution. Steps should include offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other actions to satisfy backers."

https://www.kickstarter.com/section4?ref=faq-basics_creatorproblems

Even better, they direct us to Section 4 of Kickstarter's term of use which contains the following gems: "When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers." (Please note, the phrase 'the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward' was bolded in the terms of use, I couldn't carry over the emphasis.)

The last sentence is enlightening: "The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers." (Note, I'm intentionally skipping the good faith/efforts portion because I do not see it as possible or applicable here considering the complaints about lack of communication.)

Further, the folks that did this Kickstarter did not list non-delivery in their 'Risks and challenges' rather they wrote: "Ninja Division Publishing is very experienced with the production and manufacturing of miniatures. However, there is always the possibility of delays in any project, including: Development Delays, Manufacturing Delays, Customs Delays, and Shipping Delays." If they were going to use that shield they should have included it in their risks.

Ok, lets look at what they promised, lets look at the lowest level pledge with a reward: "Pledge $100 or more ADVENTURE
With Adventure Pledge level get at least $250 worth of the Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures for only $100.

INCLUDES:
All 6 Legacy Race Heroes (KS Exclusives)
Space Goblin Gang (KS Exclusive)
Starfinder Candy & Cola (KS Exclusive)
Seelah the Paladin (KS Backers Only)
6 x Hero Slots
4 x Encounter Pack Slots
All Unlocked Freebies"

Again, the language is very direct, Pledge $100 an "get at least $250 worth of the Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures for only $100." They could have the statement: "Pledge $100 or more and we will continue our creative project to create Starfinder Miniatures, and, if we are successful, we will send up to $250 worth of Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures to you." The makers of this kickstarter gave commitment language rather than language to make a potential pledger aware that there was a risk that they would not receive the promised product for their pledge.

There is an actionable case here, and, if I'm wrong, please give me the links to show that.

Note, I did not pledge to this, I've funded one Kickstarter, Dungeon Roll, and just didn't see it as worth it after watching kickstarter drama on Boardgamegeek. (What does this mean for Up Front is interesting, and a few others are interesting to spectate.)

I just do not like to see other folks being mistreated. Right now I buy every hardcover that comes out for Starfinder as I like and want to support the game, but if Paizo continues to simply play lip service to their customers I will stop. What they do to one customer is what they will do to me.


I'm not entirely sure I agree with point 4 there. Paizo actually responded very quickly both times I emailed them and asked them specific questions about what was going on (and asked that they provide replies in this specific thread so other people could also see the answers from an official source).

For that matter, the original estimated date for delivery was May 2018... which wasn't actually that long ago in the kind of timelines these projects have. It's fairly normal for Kickstarter projects to be delayed for a bit, and as long as ND kept saying the right things, I'm not sure other major figures were too concerned over the next few months. Let's call it another four months before we really consider that something might be seriously wrong (anything before that is, frankly, likely to be dismissed - fairly or not, that's the way it goes). That puts us to about September 2018, or 4 months ago. Paizo made a statement here in this thread on November 9, a bit over a month afterwards. That's a bit of a delay, but I don't think I'd call that timeframe protracted, especially because they've been pretty responsive here ever since.

Could things have been done better? Probably. Should future licensing agreements include clauses for things like backer communication and the ability to check and verify financial stability? I think so. But it's not like Paizo has been particularly mute in ND's defense or hesitant to address the issue when directly and specifically asked about it.

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

3 people marked this as a favorite.

With regards to the questions about why there are some of the Starfinder Iconic miniatures in retail:

The miniatures we have listed on our site were planned and announced prior to the Kickstarter launch. While the sculpts used to create the minis you see for sale on the site are the same sculpts as the minis that are part of the kickstarter rewards, they are not the same product. I was fairly confused with the nuances of this so Glenn helped explain to me that while the Iconic Hero sculpts are the same in the 1. pre-paints for retail, 2. the unpainted single-pack blisters for retail, and 3. the kickstarter rewards, they are actually three separate product groups. Our understanding is that the manufacturing of these groups were not all done at the same factory and they were on different production and distribution cycles, and that minis we received for retail, were not from the same production process as the minis intended for kickstarter fulfillment, which is why these ones are on sale on our site while some backers have not received their kickstarter rewards. Its been interesting to try to quickly wrap my brain around some pretty complex business and manufacturing logistics and then translate and condense it to a digestible paragraph so I hope this has helped with communicating some of the issues involved.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Huh, that's interesting - I definitely didn't know that.

Do you know if any money from the Kickstarter went towards the product group(s?) you have in the store, or whether that was entirely separate?

Dataphiles

I am seriously torn between hoping beyond hope that we will eventually get the miniatures we paid for, and more realistically holding ND management legally accountable for their financial actions. The more I see of saying/not saying things without any noticeable progress the more I move towards taking legal action which would surely kill the dream of getting the minis. I have held off moving that direction because Paizo was at least commenting to us, but if you review not much has really been said or any movement seen by the backers.

Liberty's Edge

Nazrath wrote:
I am seriously torn between hoping beyond hope that we will eventually get the miniatures we paid for, and more realistically holding ND management legally accountable for their financial actions. The more I see of saying/not saying things without any noticeable progress the more I move towards taking legal action which would surely kill the dream of getting the minis. I have held off moving that direction because Paizo was at least commenting to us, but if you review not much has really been said or any movement seen by the backers.

I'm not trying to be disruptive or abusive but....

Talking about "legal action" is a waste of breath, I would bet my hat that even with the best lawyer money can buy in your pocket you'd still get laughed out to the courtroom... Kickstarter as a platform explicitly lays out that you have NO legal recourse to go after KS or ND in this manner.

As has been said MANY times here and in other places, you were giving them money to support their project regardless of the final outcome, and talking about legal threats on here only makes you look ignorant of the ToS you signed once when making your KS Account as well as the more specific one you agreed to when buying into the ND Kickstarter.

I TOTALLY understand your frustration but even an armchair lawyer would tell you that you'd be wasting your own emotional investment and money trying to pursue this.

If however ND DID ship something to you and it turned out to be a hazardous/illegal product that endangers your safety instead of the Minis then MAYBE you'd have a leg to stand on but otherwise...


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Sara Marie wrote:
Our understanding is that the manufacturing of these groups were not all done at the same factory and they were on different production and distribution cycles, and that minis we received for retail, were not from the same production process as the minis intended for kickstarter fulfillment, which is why these ones are on sale on our site while some backers have not received their kickstarter rewards.

1.) So you have no proof that any of the kickstarter money collected in your name went into the kickstarter?

2.) Don't you think that "some backers have not received their kickstarter rewards" is an inappropriate understatement, when the majority have not received anything and any fullfillment is at best unconfirmed and even then far from complete?

I assume nobody here has a problem with delays in delivery, but we don't like scams. And if indeed no (or less than 10%) money collected was used for fullfilling the kickstarter, even liberal interpretation of kickstarter ToS might see no "intention to fullfill the kickstarter obligations". Paizo can ask ND how many of the 2294 backers received anything or everything.

Edit:
Just found this relevant thread on "Beasts of War":
https://www.beastsofwar.com/forums/topic/ks-ninja-division-soda-pop-out-of- money-for-super-dungeon-explore-legends/

Some highlights: ND made 5 kickstarters and has yet to complete one of them. ND got sued for not fullfilling a 2015 kickstarter (6000 backers, 1.29 Mio $), so there are ways. They had to admit that they are out of money since 2017 and are trying to sell the company. So they were long out of money before starting this kickstarter. No wonder they were so eager to do this kickstarter. Intersting to know if Paizo has been aware of this situation.

Edit2:
Another relevant thread:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2095446/further-confirmation-soda-pop-ninj a-division-issue
Highlight: Archon Studio/Prodos stopped manufacturing for ND in November because of non-payments. Same Prodos that didn't fullfil AvP kickstarter, so a shady company themselves. Maybe someone finds newer Archon statements.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Themetricsystem wrote:
Nazrath wrote:
I am seriously torn between hoping beyond hope that we will eventually get the miniatures we paid for, and more realistically holding ND management legally accountable for their financial actions. The more I see of saying/not saying things without any noticeable progress the more I move towards taking legal action which would surely kill the dream of getting the minis. I have held off moving that direction because Paizo was at least commenting to us, but if you review not much has really been said or any movement seen by the backers.

I'm not trying to be disruptive or abusive but....

Talking about "legal action" is a waste of breath, I would bet my hat that even with the best lawyer money can buy in your pocket you'd still get laughed out to the courtroom... Kickstarter as a platform explicitly lays out that you have NO legal recourse to go after KS or ND in this manner.

As has been said MANY times here and in other places, you were giving them money to support their project regardless of the final outcome, and talking about legal threats on here only makes you look ignorant of the ToS you signed once when making your KS Account as well as the more specific one you agreed to when buying into the ND Kickstarter.

I TOTALLY understand your frustration but even an armchair lawyer would tell you that you'd be wasting your own emotional investment and money trying to pursue this.

If however ND DID ship something to you and it turned out to be a hazardous/illegal product that endangers your safety instead of the Minis then MAYBE you'd have a leg to stand on but otherwise...

Where are you getting this idea? At the top of this page I posted clear information from kickstarers page about liability of creators. kickstater says creators can be sued in their terms of service that I linked to above. If I'm wrong, post quotes and links to how I'm wrong. Otherwise, if someone lives close to where ninja division is incorporated by all means small claims could be fun and worth it.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

If you think trying to sue someone is "fun" you spend way too much time online jockeying around words to sound smart and interesting.

But if you want to waste your time and money trying to pursue this by all means try your best but just know every real (Not hypothetical or fantastical) "legal threat" you can try to make against them is only going to slow down the fulfillment even further.

I just hope you're a lawyer yourself because otherwise good luck finding someone to actually help make this happen instead of just taking your money for filing paperwork that wont go anywhere at all.

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

11 people marked this as a favorite.
Kroothawk wrote:
Don't you think that "some backers have not received their kickstarter rewards" is an inappropriate understatement, when the majority have not received anything and any fullfillment is at best unconfirmed and even then far from complete?

My involvement with this is that people who are within my forum community & my customers, some of whom I have known for almost a decade, are experiencing issues with this kickstarter. I am working to ensure that even if there is no new information I can provide, my community can see they have not been forgotten and know that there is someone whose involvement is as an advocate.

Because that is the extent of my role here, I am very careful with what words I use. My lack of involvement with licensing details means I have limited knowledge regarding the business aspects of this situation. If something I communicate seems like an understatement, it's because I am choosing my words to match my level of knowledge that I am certain, to the best of my ability, is factual. I have a professional responsibility to ensure that what I say here is as accurate as I can be. I treat this responsibility very seriously.

I understand your concerns that "some" is an understatement. From my perspective, I know that there are X number of backers who have not received items (based on the evidence of this thread), but since I do not have data on what percentages or quantities that X might be, I cannot be more precise as "some" while also being certain I am remaining factual.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Themetricsystem wrote:

If you think trying to sue someone is "fun" you spend way too much time online jockeying around words to sound smart and interesting.

But if you want to waste your time and money trying to pursue this by all means try your best but just know every real (Not hypothetical or fantastical) "legal threat" you can try to make against them is only going to slow down the fulfillment even further.

I just hope you're a lawyer yourself because otherwise good luck finding someone to actually help make this happen instead of just taking your money for filing paperwork that wont go anywhere at all.

Well, so I guess you couldn't find anything to back up your earlier post because you have made no attempt to back up those statements.

Plus, I suggested small claims court which, in Florida and I can only speak of Florida, has simplified forms and a small filing fee. Small claims cases are made to be done by non-lawyers. I agree it's not worth paying a lawyer to draft this for you, but there are a ton of gamers that happen to be lawyers and may be willing to help.

It only makes sense to do a small claims case if your in the same jurisdiction as the creator your going against. I don't know where the creators are incorporated for this one.

If a small claims case would interfere with fulfillment than this company isn't healthy enough to fulfill their obligations anyways.

Liberty's Edge

Silas Stadatilas wrote:
Well, so I guess you couldn't find anything to back up your earlier post because you have made no attempt to back up those statements.

First, you already read the ToS so you should KNOW the risks. Listen I'm not trying to ruffle your feathers here but it's obvious to me that you haven't even googled the issue as there are dozens of articles from Quora, Yahoo Answers, Kickstarter themselves, hell even the Daily Dot has articles explaining why you should almost never expect your KS rewards by the time they quote fulfillment based on statistical analysis of KS projects that were funded.

I'll make it easy for you.

It's also apparent you haven't done your research if you don't know where they're incorporated since it's been brought up multiple times in this thread alone.

I'm not trying to defend ND as it is obvious fact that they have repeatedly bit off more than they can chew, but the fact it they HAVE shipped at least the start of this line to some backers, and from what I can tell they remain committed to finishing the KS even if it bankrupts them entirely. To me that shows a good-faith effort to get this thing done, and endless whinning on the internet, harrasment by angry anonymous supposed backers, and fuel being poured on top of it all has (IMO) rightly forced them to stay tight lipped about the problems because if you look at how they've been treated like fraudsters you'll see there is no pleasing some people. I've backed a handful of KS projects, and each one of them had problems and only one of which arrived on time so honestly it's par for the course.. besides they're not even a year late on their commitment to this project yet and while that's not ideal for people who look at the platform like some kind of way to pre-order a product that's on them for not being able to use their reading comprehension or look into their history of different projects.

To me, the fact that they have production lines for these rewards already pushing out miniatures to some backers, and that Paizo hasn't publicly disavowed them is proof enough that progress is being made on the back-end. That's all they need to do, but feel free to keep firing shots over the wall blindly in your indignation that you feel like you were taken for a ride, nothing I or anyone else can say will assuage your anger.

Lastly, if you don't think that leveraging a lawsuit against a company is disruptive to their operation I highly doubt you know the first thing about how small these industry companies REALLY are and how threadbare their resources have to be to commit to a KS in the first place.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Once again, we have moved the goal posts. We have gone from you can't use to you can't use a kickstarter for being late. So, can we agree that you can use a kickstarter creator for non-delivery? I say yes. Prove me wrong, don't change the topic.

Although complaints to the auditor General may be a good course of action.

As for a small claims case disrupting a company, you have got to be kidding me. If your company can't defend against a less than one thousand dollar lawsuit (or doesn't have the common sense to settle quickly the damages in the suit would be the pledge amount) than it should not be in business. I would be shocked if you have been involved in more litigation than I have.

I am very much looking forward to the answer to my prior question in this thread, has paizo received money for the license for this kickstarter and the answer to GM Rednal's question about kickstarter funds going to other products.


Silas Stadatilas wrote:

Once again, we have moved the goal posts. We have gone from you can't use to you can't use a kickstarter for being late. So, can we agree that you can use a kickstarter creator for non-delivery? I say yes. Prove me wrong, don't change the topic.

For clarification, did you mean "sue?" Because reading this, I'm not sure what you mean by "use."


1 person marked this as a favorite.

As i was reminiscing about the money i lost on both starfinder minis and Super dungeon explore i found this on youtube from Know Direction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNve1zSQYrw

i believe this person was also the person who started "pathfinder Dice Arena", and was part of "Robotech Tactics" and several other not performing ventures.

Its a good watch, and was one of the reasons i backed.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Should the Kickstarter minis be delivered at some point this year, or next year, or maybe even the year after, i would still be satisfied.
Indeed i would prefer greater quality over faster fulfillment.

The lack of communication and uncertainty overall here is undesirable and unpleasant though.


Themetricsystem wrote:
Nazrath wrote:
I am seriously torn between hoping beyond hope that we will eventually get the miniatures we paid for, and more realistically holding ND management legally accountable for their financial actions. The more I see of saying/not saying things without any noticeable progress the more I move towards taking legal action which would surely kill the dream of getting the minis. I have held off moving that direction because Paizo was at least commenting to us, but if you review not much has really been said or any movement seen by the backers.

I'm not trying to be disruptive or abusive but....

Talking about "legal action" is a waste of breath, I would bet my hat that even with the best lawyer money can buy in your pocket you'd still get laughed out to the courtroom... Kickstarter as a platform explicitly lays out that you have NO legal recourse to go after KS or ND in this manner.

I'm not sure where you are getting the last part from.

The last KS ToS I read clearly indicate that KS itself is a 3rd part to the agreement between backer and creator and has no liability. You could sue them if you want, but you'd be wasting your time & money.

The ToS DOES make it clear that the "contract" between creator and backer is between the creator and backer and does not in any way I see exempt the creator from legal liability for failure to perform and deliver rewards.

I do believe in fact that while KS makes it clear they will not participate in any legal action, on either side, backers are welcome to use the ToS as part of a legal action against the creator.

Now, I agree suing ND would be pointless, they are pretty much broke, suing broke people doesn't usually end well, but if someone has them time & money to waste I don;t see anything legally preventing them from doing so.


Nieroshai wrote:
Silas Stadatilas wrote:

Once again, we have moved the goal posts. We have gone from you can't use to you can't use a kickstarter for being late. So, can we agree that you can use a kickstarter creator for non-delivery? I say yes. Prove me wrong, don't change the topic.

For clarification, did you mean "sue?" Because reading this, I'm not sure what you mean by "use."

Your correct, sorry. I was using a tablet and correcting the strange changes it made for kickstarter but I didn't catch the change of sue to use. Thanks.

Dataphiles

Themetricsystem wrote:
Nazrath wrote:
I am seriously torn between hoping beyond hope that we will eventually get the miniatures we paid for, and more realistically holding ND management legally accountable for their financial actions. The more I see of saying/not saying things without any noticeable progress the more I move towards taking legal action which would surely kill the dream of getting the minis. I have held off moving that direction because Paizo was at least commenting to us, but if you review not much has really been said or any movement seen by the backers.

I'm not trying to be disruptive or abusive but....

Talking about "legal action" is a waste of breath, I would bet my hat that even with the best lawyer money can buy in your pocket you'd still get laughed out to the courtroom... Kickstarter as a platform explicitly lays out that you have NO legal recourse to go after KS or ND in this manner.

As has been said MANY times here and in other places, you were giving them money to support their project regardless of the final outcome, and talking about legal threats on here only makes you look ignorant of the ToS you signed once when making your KS Account as well as the more specific one you agreed to when buying into the ND Kickstarter.

I TOTALLY understand your frustration but even an armchair lawyer would tell you that you'd be wasting your own emotional investment and money trying to pursue this.

If however ND DID ship something to you and it turned out to be a hazardous/illegal product that endangers your safety instead of the Minis then MAYBE you'd have a leg to stand on but otherwise...

To clarify, I am not talking about a lawsuit against a broke company. At this point I don’t see my money coming back. I am talking about holding ND management accountable for possible criminal actions with Idaho. Which, as said, would surely squash any hope of this Kickstarter ever completing.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
noms blank space from Krooths link

I just want to say that I clicked this link, and now my Kickstarter is all in German, and I can't find the language button so ich hasse dich (-.-)

EDIT: Nevermind, I found it.


Try this instead.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I just want to ask can we all stop, take a deep breath, and step away for a bit?

I've been going through the latest posts, and while I'm just as eager as many of you are to hear SOME news about this, us attacking each other, playing arm chair lawyers, and performing other assorted shenanigans isn't going to get any of us anywhere.

Paizo, through Sara Marie, is keeping us informed as best as they are able. I'm sure they need to tread carefully due to legal ramifications as some have suggested, and they don't want to mislead us by spilling any and every breadcrumb they are able to get a hold of just to appease our craving for info. If we're all patient, this situation will eventually be resolved (hopefully to a happy end). Though it doesn't seem like much, this is, frankly, far more info than Ninja Division has given us, and given ND's track record for communicating, I wouldn't be surprised if they're not doing much talking to Paizo either.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Sabirwolf wrote:

I just want to ask can we all stop, take a deep breath, and step away for a bit?

I've been going through the latest posts, and while I'm just as eager as many of you are to hear SOME news about this, us attacking each other, playing arm chair lawyers, and performing other assorted shenanigans isn't going to get any of us anywhere.

Paizo, through Sara Marie, is keeping us informed as best as they are able. I'm sure they need to tread carefully due to legal ramifications as some have suggested, and they don't want to mislead us by spilling any and every breadcrumb they are able to get a hold of just to appease our craving for info. If we're all patient, this situation will eventually be resolved (hopefully to a happy end). Though it doesn't seem like much, this is, frankly, far more info than Ninja Division has given us, and given ND's track record for communicating, I wouldn't be surprised if they're not doing much talking to Paizo either.

I respectfully disagree with the idea of stepping away. No offence to Sara and Paizo in general, but I feel (at least in my opinion) that their efforts to keep us updated is due to the traction this post was getting.

I agree we are starting to get a little heated amongst ourselves at that's not going to help but let's keep the heat on I say. This includes all sources of touch points, such as Facebook or Twitter. Keep reminding Paizo that this is damaging their brand and ensure they keep the foot on the neck that is ND.


I'll step away when I in some way have back the chunk of blood, sweat, and tears I handed to ND at Paizo's recommendation.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Hmmm... perhaps the FTC is the avenue to pursue this through?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Hi all in backer from the UK here, I even backed the additional dragon from the pledge manager, I even convinced a handful of my current players to join me in backing.

To this date I've received nothing from the Kickstater, although I did receive my Worldscape minis and was impressed with the quality.

I'd like to thank Sara Marie for taking the time to give us the information she's can. I'm mainly posting so I can keep track of the thread.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Again, most of us knew that ninja division was untrustworthy, it was because of Eric Mona's direct message to us that we could trust ND, that we climbed on board. Its his fault me (and my players) are out near 500$. When HE addresses this I will cease and desist with the accusations and blame. Until then me and my store will not be messing with any paizo merch. Thanks to sara for tyring to placate us but its not actually anything more than "calm down we are on it".....do you know what happens when I tell my wife that, yea I think you do.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

She's giving constant updates of "we're working on it" because that's explicitly what was demanded.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

There are many silent investors that are choosing to exercise patience in this situation. It has not been stated that we will not receive our miniatures by anyone with the authority to declare such, so I will remain calm and encourage others to do their best to do the same.

I just wanted to say thank you to Sara Marie and for whoever is in contact with ND. I'm sure that you are working in our best interests. Please continue giving updates whenever you can. Some of us even appreciate the "We're working on it" responses even though others seem agitated. Thanks again.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'd like to reiterate that if anyone is dissatisfied with the information Paizo has given, please remember to ask a specific question (or questions, if you have more than one). It's very difficult for them to provide the information you'd like to have if they don't know what, exactly, you want. o wo/ For example, questions like "Has Ninja Division provided you with a timeline of when they expect to be able to fulfill all of their obligations to backers, and if so, can you tell us what it is?" are good to ask since pretty much any actual response can provide us with a more complete understanding of the situation.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Yes, I'm sorry, I let my emotions get the better of me sometimes. As a young store in a remote area our customers, outside a select few are fairly far between. As so we have to watch what we spend our money on very closely. For the last 10 years (which predates my games store by 8 years or so) I've religiously supported paizo, to me this was the dnd company I had been waiting years for (a company of gamers making games for gamers was often my pitch). So yes when they first launched Starfinder I hopped on board, and pitched it to my customers with fervor. Even going so far as to borrow the money for the Kickstarter, now I'm basically being told to sit calmly and see what happens, well my patience is wearing thin. Where is the guy who told me to trust them, nothing against you sara but you aren't the one who staked Paizos company name on these (ill say it) thieves now I would like to hear from that guy and what he thinks of ND now. Granted it wont solve any of the issues, I'm still gonna be out money I cant spare but an apology from the man who is responsible would be nice.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Has Ninja Division provided Paizo with a timeline of when they expect to be able to fulfill all of their obligations to backers, and if so, can you tell us what it is?

Has Ninja Division provided Paizo an explanation for going completely radio silent to their backers for 3 months now, and if so, can you tell us what it is?

Did Paizo approach Ninja Division for this project, or did Ninja Division approach Paizo?

Does Paizo have a plan in place for Ninja Division completely failing to deliver on anything from here on out, and if so, can you tell us what it is?

How much of the $500k that this kickstarter pulled in did Paizo receive for their licensing?

Why does the contract Paizo has with Ninja Division have stringent measures in place regarding disclosure of information, but nothing at all in place regarding one party in the contract doing their very best performance of "Fleeing the Country With the Money in D Major"?


Just one quick point here: The Kickstarter ToS document is a house of cards waiting for one or more Attorneys General to pounce...and pounce they should.

There is not a great deal of legal strength to a document that essentially says "You give us money, we will give most of it to this other party, but we have decided we hold no responsibility for giving you anything, and even though our site has many frauds and thieves, we declare that our hands are washed of it all once payment is processed"

If I give consideration, then the other party(ies) must also provide some consideration or it's not an agreement. I can't tell you I'll paint your house and be off the hook just because I asked you to sign an agreement that says I might not paint your house. Consideration is the critical term here.

While I will agree that it would be hard and somewhat expensive for individuals to sue, this definitely has the potential for AG action or potentially class action, and even if ND has folded Piazo and Kickstarter could definitely be named, in large part because the strength of the Paizo brand was deliberately leveraged to vouch for ND.


Erik Mona contemplating the ethical consequences of his Ninja Division endorsement (artist depiction, 2017)

Ninja Division kickstarter supporters arguing the legal merits of their complaints (artist depiction, 2019)

I kid, of course. I'm sure Paizo regrets you not getting your stuff, but maybe not enough that they'd have preferred to not make the endorsement and not have any miniatures come to market for their new game. And as an interested bystander I understand the frustration of those who threw their money on a fire and don't want to ever buy another Starfinder product as a result, but not enough to join in your boycott. Alas, as I don't care for miniatures I can't even benefit from your act of unwilling altruism by buying some.

I do think this thread serves a useful purpose as group therapy and maybe some minor pressure for Paizo to take actual action. I certainly appreciate that they've kept it around and engaged as much as they have. I'm not sure it's healthy, however, to get more angry as time goes on or entertain legal fantasies.


Couple of comments on previous posts:

Amano - You're right, now one has stated you won't get your miniatures. Creators of failed kickstarters don't admit there failures, that would hinder there ability to run more kickstarters. I think its far more telling that no one is saying you WILL get your mini's or presenting any sort of plan or timeline for that to happen despite pressure from backers to do so.

James Todd - Project creators have run afoul of AG's and been sued before, but NONE of that has ever gone back on Kickstarter. The ToS and "contract" you agree to when you sign up to use there site forces you to agree they are held harmless if a project fails.

technarken - all questions I think we'd like to see answered, none of which I expect to be answered.


GM Rednal said we needed to ask questions. I think I've encompassed quite a bit of what I'd like to know in a couple questions.


Yup! Specific questions are always better. And then we have to wait for someone to see them, decide which to answer, actually get answers, and have the opportunity to post with all of their other daily duties. That can take a few days. XD


1 person marked this as a favorite.

To clarify one bit. I did not back the SF KS, but I backed ND work in the past.

When Paizo actually tried to reassure people about ND, some people reacted by trusting ND due to Paizo's endorsement. I went the other way, and stopped trusting Paizo (or at least their judgement) I haven't bought Paizo stuff since, and that is why I'm watching this - their reaction will have a lot of impact on whether or not I return to being a loyal Paizo customer.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Im in the same boat as you. I've been a loyal Paizo subscriber for years and years. However them completely disregarding their customer base warnings about ND makes me wonder if they are still the good company that I have been supporting.

Really want to see what the powers that be have to say after they ignored the warnings that the people who fund their paychecks gave them.


I have a question that's loosely related to the ND/Kickstarter:

Iconic Heroes, Pact Worlds Fleet, and Corpse Fleet came to prepainted minis form with seemingly the same sculpts, but ahead of and separate from the Kickstarter peeps. Is there and chance/hope of a Vesk fleet set (prepainted or otherwise) coming out in the future?

Vesk fleet


Jinteki42 wrote:

I wonder what ND's responses are when Paizo encourages them to communicate to their backers.

Does ND say they will or do they flat out tell Paizo that they have nothing to say.

As there has been a request for us to ask specfic questions in order to get answers, I went back to look to see why this question was not answered from my post on Jan 23rd.

However, it appears I did not post it in the form of a question so let me do that now.

What is ND's response when Paizo encourages them to communicate to their backers?


I think the real question is Is there someone alive in ND office to answer questions?
Are ND employees willing to work for nothing?
I think the only people involved now are the five partners and I am pretty sure that they are either working elsewhere as Kai Nesbit to "ensure" a living or are profiting from their ill-gotten goods (but I rather think they are incompetent than real crooks... what l am pretty sure also is that they paid wages first...)
So my real question is why really did Paizo support them?
Is there anything related to the Pathfinder dice game abort ? Did Paizo owe them something after this decision? Were they friends?...(which businesswise would be bad but l could begin to understand and forgive Paizo)
I guess Sara Marie will never answer to these questions however....


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Some of my questions:
1.) How much money of the 450.000+ $ raised did they actually use for this kickstarter fullfillment? None? Some?
2.) Where did the money actually go?
3.) Will ND ever again communicate with kickstarter backers?
4.) What are the chances that they fullfill the kickstarter obligations?
5.) How does Paizo see its responsibility/liability in the kickstarter, that officially was made mainly by them (see current "About Us" section of kickstarter page)?
6.) Does Eric Mona still stand to his post here:

Quote:
We are aware of some of the issues with some of the earlier campaigns, but we are confident in the work that Ninja Division has shown us so far, in the Starfinder miniatures they have already produced and sold at Gen Con, and in their ability to deliver this project in the timeframe they have promised.

Just to compare: A successfull kickstarter for a 16+ miniature Bloodbowl team usually gets arouns 20.000 $. So ND got the money equivalent for 23 Bloodbowl teams, not including the money from the Game On Tabletop fundraiser (BTW how much was that?):

https://www.gameontabletop.com/crowdfunding-91.html


Another $190,000 in late pledges, according to GameOn


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Found on the internet:

Christopher Birkenhagen
Director of Sales at Ninja Division Publishing LLC
Location:
5311 N. Glenwood St., Garden City, Idaho, United States
Company:
Ninja Division Publishing LLC
HQ Phone:
(208) 286-4135

Then googled using google map... This is now...

Industrial Storage Systems Inc
5311 N Glenwood St, Boise, ID 83714, États-Unis
MP39+FM Garden City, Idaho, États-Unis
iss-solutions.com
+1 208-376-1111

If this is true, now you can understand what hope there is left of getting anything...

So my question is now: DOES NINJA DIVISION STILL EXIST, OR IS PAIZO MAKING FOOL OF OURSELVES? ... for instance by hiding these very truth ...

PS: I will try to call these numbers but it may be easier for US backers...


Ninja Division is likely renting the building , so the owner would be the person the map shows (as they're longer term than a renter)

Liberty's Edge

SombreroDeLaNuit wrote:

Found on the internet:

Christopher Birkenhagen
Director of Sales at Ninja Division Publishing LLC
Location:
5311 N. Glenwood St., Garden City, Idaho, United States
Company:
Ninja Division Publishing LLC
HQ Phone:
(208) 286-4135

Then googled using google map... This is now...

Industrial Storage Systems Inc
5311 N Glenwood St, Boise, ID 83714, États-Unis
MP39+FM Garden City, Idaho, États-Unis
iss-solutions.com
+1 208-376-1111

If this is true, now you can understand what hope there is left of getting anything...

So my question is now: DOES NINJA DIVISION STILL EXIST, OR IS PAIZO MAKING FOOL OF OURSELVES? ... for instance by hiding these very truth ...

Yup... another nail in the coffin. Bye Bye $400...


SombreroDeLaNuit wrote:

Found on the internet:

Christopher Birkenhagen
Director of Sales at Ninja Division Publishing LLC
Location:
5311 N. Glenwood St., Garden City, Idaho, United States
Company:
Ninja Division Publishing LLC
HQ Phone:
(208) 286-4135

Then googled using google map... This is now...

Industrial Storage Systems Inc
5311 N Glenwood St, Boise, ID 83714, États-Unis
MP39+FM Garden City, Idaho, États-Unis
iss-solutions.com
+1 208-376-1111

If this is true, now you can understand what hope there is left of getting anything...

So my question is now: DOES NINJA DIVISION STILL EXIST, OR IS PAIZO MAKING FOOL OF OURSELVES? ... for instance by hiding these very truth ...

PS: I will try to call these numbers but it may be easier for US backers...

I called the two numbers here...

The second number, for ISS Solutions, just rings and rings and rings. The website seems pretty amateurish and advertises contracting/renovation services. My guess is that it was the office for a [very] small business unrelated to ND, and that, like others said, the address is for a facility that rents out space.

The first number does not belong to ND or to Christopher Birkenhagen; rather, it belongs to a very established company that sells laboratory and research materials and supplies, called MilliporeSigma. Maybe ND released that number and MilliporeSigma picked it up to have a local number for sales. That's definitely possible.

Another possibility is less comforting, however. One would hope ND didn't knowingly list that phone number on their business filings when it actually belongs to someone else, because, well, that actually would be fraud.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Damning news

Just gonna leave this here...


For what it's worth, Kai Nesbit is now the Director of Business Development for Jasco Games out of Las Vegas. He does not appear to officially be affiliated with Shinobi 7 anymore.

451 to 500 of 1,139 << first < prev | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Starfinder / Third-Party Starfinder Products / Miniatures Kickstarter Ninja Division All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.