So, I just was flipping through my APG, when by coincidence I happened to read the entry for the cursed Ring of Truth:
"The wearer of this cursed ring is rendered unable to tell a deliberate lie, in either speech or writing. The wearer may simply omit the truth or choose not to communicate, but even then must succeed on a DC 20 Will saving throw to avoid answering a direct question truthfully."
How is this not the worst thing to fall into your players hands, ever ( unless you have a "Rod of World Domination" in your game ^^ )?
As soon as the afflicted PC in question is able to remove the ring via Remove Curse, you can forget about ever having a murder mystery in your game.
Burn them bad.
The first time they wrongfully execute a person who was magically (or otherwise) duped into believing they did the crime... :p
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the normal, un-cursed item "Candle of Truth" or the spell "Zone of Truth" or "Detect Thoughts" or "Seek Thoughts" etc, etc.
Burn them bad.
The first time they wrongfully execute a person who was magically (or otherwise) duped into believing they did the crime... :p
Read the description again... the wearer cannot lie. He can just shut up or try to talk around the topic and even that costs him a will save.
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the normal, un-cursed item "Candle of Truth" or the spell "Zone of Truth" or "Detect Thoughts" or "Seek Thoughts" etc, etc.
People get saves, there, to tell outright lies or so that the spells don't work at all.
Here they only get a save to be able to even shut up. Big difference.
Burn them bad.
The first time they wrongfully execute a person who was magically (or otherwise) duped into believing they did the crime... :p
Read the description again... the wearer cannot lie. He can just shut up or try to talk around the topic and even that costs him a will save.
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the normal, un-cursed item "Candle of Truth" or the spell "Zone of Truth" or "Detect Thoughts" or "Seek Thoughts" etc, etc.People get saves, there, to tell outright lies or so that the spells don't work at all.
Here they only get a save to be able to even shut up. Big difference.
But not a notable one because (a) it's a cursed item and (b) there is alot more crap you can do by the time you would end up with CL 9th items.
But not a notable one because (a) it's a cursed item and (b) there is alot more crap you can do by the time you would end up with CL 9th items.
My main point is that is not a useless cursed item but rather a very dangerous one. I can just see how a GM may spring this one on his players to see it backfire terribly.
Having it being cursed is easy to get around... it has a caster level of only nine, so getting it removed isn't a huge challenge. Afterwards, you are free to use it on whomever you choose.
And, uh, what exactly are the options to get the same effect this ring has? As I said, the other truth spells/items allow will saves to lie. This thing doesn't.
My point was, it's not going to be a cursed item that you yourself would have to introduce that is going to be the bane of any attempts at noir detective adventuers in a world of high magic.
That'd depend on the height of the Will save, wouldn't it? Eh, anyway, not an item I'd give to my players, even if it'd cause some initial discomfort for one.
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But not a notable one because (a) it's a cursed item and (b) there is alot more crap you can do by the time you would end up with CL 9th items.My main point is that is not a useless cursed item but rather a very dangerous one. I can just see how a GM may spring this one on his players to see it backfire terribly.
Having it being cursed is easy to get around... it has a caster level of only nine, so getting it removed isn't a huge challenge. Afterwards, you are free to use it on whomever you choose.
And, uh, what exactly are the options to get the same effect this ring has? As I said, the other truth spells/items allow will saves to lie. This thing doesn't.
I don't see it being a huge problem in your murder mystery games. So the party gets a hold of one of these. So what? They still have to get it onto the hand of whomever they want to question. Is the big bad villain just going to stick it on his finger? Of course not. They could try to physically force it on his finger, but unless the suspect is already imprisoned under some type of legal authority, then they are assaulting an "innocent" civilian, and there's always handy guards nearby. They can try gifting, coercion or trickery to get it onto the suspects finger. If they do succeed, then great, they can question him freely.
Afterwards, if he isn't the villain (or even if he is) how do they get the ring back? Its cursed and affecting the new wearer after all. Lots of hassle for a one time gimic
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That'd depend on the height of the Will save, wouldn't it?
You mean the one that's based on the character and can be raised, instead of the flat DC 20 on the item that can't be raised?
I mean, sure, you give it to a 1st level party, once they can get it off they can ruin some people's day. But the higher level you go, the less of a problem it is. A 15th level party would use it for pranks.
That'd depend on the height of the Will save, wouldn't it?You mean the one that's based on the character and can be raised, instead of the flat DC 20 on the item that can't be raised?
I mean, sure, you give it to a 1st level party, once they can get it off they can ruin some people's day. But the higher level you go, the less of a problem it is. A 15th level party would use it for pranks.
Uh, no? I think you read my post the wrong way. The height of the Will save is interesting for the other spells, Zone of Truth and the like.
This item only allows a Will save to just shut up or talk around the question, not tell falsehoods. That's quite a big difference, IMO.
Anyway, apparently nobody else is majorly bothered with this.
I don't see it being a huge problem in your murder mystery games. So the party gets a hold of one of these. So what? They still have to get it onto the hand of whomever they want to question. Is the big bad villain just going to stick it on his finger? Of course not. They could try to physically force it on his finger, but unless the suspect is already imprisoned under some type of legal authority, then they are assaulting an "innocent" civilian, and there's always handy guards nearby. They can try gifting, coercion or trickery to get it onto the suspects finger. If they do succeed, then great, they can question him freely.
Afterwards, if he isn't the villain (or even if he is) how do they get the ring back? Its cursed and affecting the new wearer after all. Lots of hassle for a one time gimic
How about a perfect way to interrogate prisoners? Actually, come to think of it, this item is a godsent for Paladins. No more need to check out the architecture while the other players do "interrogations". :p
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When I have the ability to read your thoughts while you're in a zone of truth, and can tell if you're lying that way? Again, one will save instead of two, with the caveat that it will always be a DC 20 instead of being based on my abilities.
No, I am not bothered by it. It's the same reason you don't run a mystery game at levels where divination spells can just give the party the answer.
When I have the ability to read your thoughts while you're in a zone of truth, and can tell if you're lying that way? Again, one will save instead of two, with the caveat that it will always be a DC 20 instead of being based on my abilities.
It's still two Will saves and if the target aces those, it can lie to your face all day long. This item prevents the target completely from doing even that.
No, I am not bothered by it. It's the same reason you don't run a mystery game at levels where divination spells can just give the party the answer.
Well, that's a whole another beast.
I still think it's absurd to assert a Ring of Truth is the more overpowered cursed item ever.
I think I see the disconnect. It's the fact that they have to make the save every time, instead of one time only, isn't it?
The main point bothering me is that the person on which this thing is used gets no Will save to simply lie. He can either shut up completely or try to talk around the asked topic ( which, I might say, is in execution quite difficult for me, without the players immediately catching on ) and even for those two actions the person being interrogated needs to make a DC 20 Will save... which many classes can't reliably do for the whole game.
Secondly, there is no limit on how often this works. No "after the first save you are immune for 24 hours" or the like. So, in essence, the party just needs to get this thing on someone they need answers from, ask him about two minutes to answer their direct question and they will have their answer.
Grantedly, the Candle of Truth works about just as well, because a one will crop up on the D20 at some time. But the DC 13 to the DC 20 Will save still makes one hell of a difference.
I agree it is a very powerful item.
One reason is you can just keep asking the same question over and over again until they either talk, or do not talk around the answer. Then at that point you know the truth. A la Austin Powers and the guy who could not stand to be asked something 3 times. In essence you would have to ask a question 20 times to statistically of them roll a 1 and you get the truth.
with casting zone of truth etc. you have to cast them. This use NO party resources. Wee!!! free truth!
Well the only resource you need to get remove curse it off the person you are interrogating, unless you plan to kill him anyways then kill and get ring back.
Evil acolyte lays bleeding at the foor of the shatter altar blood dripping out of his mouth as the PCs stand over him, "Tell us where the greater temple is now!"
"Evil god I worship is greater than you, cliche, cliche, I will never tell you blah blah."
Party states, "Man we will need to do research to find the truth, cast spells, maybe some communes or speak with dead. this is going to take time"
Introduce cursed ring. Party heals and ties up acolyte puts on ring, "Where is the greater temple." repeated 20 times.
Acolyte, "The entrance can be opened by X Y and Z"
Party says thanks, kills evil doer picks up ring. "Ok guys lets head to the greater temple."
A way to stop this abuse add the following to the item description.
When the curse is successfully lifted from the ring it vanishes and randomly appears on another plane.
or
When the curse is successfully lifed from the ring it crumbles into dust and is forver destroyed.
I mostly agree that anything that lets me determine if people are lying is bad for the game. I'd ban it all. But I'm a really big banner of things, so my opinion is pretty extreme.
I do like the idea of a nasty NPC using knowledge that the PCs have such a ring to dupe some innocent into *believing* he or she is guilty. Interesting idea.
Though Dust of Sneezing and Choking is far more powerful, and the best offensive cursed item! I always hope to find one before we trigger it to use as a hurled weapon in a clay jug. hahahaha
This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20-foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 3d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. Those who succeed on this saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds.
That's right auto stun in 20' spread for 5d4 round NO SAVE!
ahhh and back in 3.5 it had a gp value of 2,400 gold... how cheap for a creature pwner!
I still think it's absurd to assert a Ring of Truth is the more overpowered cursed item ever.
Off the cuff I cannot think of one which has a similar potential to disrupt a campaign.
I still think it's absurd to assert a Ring of Truth is the more overpowered cursed item ever.It's not that it is overpowered, it just ruins certain plots. Although I always thought you had to remove the curse to remove the item, making it so the curse cannot be used again.
That'd be a neat solution, although I always understood it that a Remove Curse only supresses the curse on an item, so that it can be safely removed.
Dust of sneezing and choking is far more powerful.
CR 20 creature that is not immune to posion and stunning is shut down for 5d4 round oh and if it fails the fort save loses 3d6 con.
Oh wait in a 20' spread.
Just wear a necklace of adaptation, run into the sea of badguys pop your dust and have the rogue do clean up.
A way to stop this abuse add the following to the item description.
When the curse is successfully lifted from the ring it vanishes and randomly appears on another plane.
or
When the curse is successfully lifed from the ring it crumbles into dust and is forver destroyed.
This "abuse" is imaginary and can be applied to every single cursed item. Do you people think you are the first people who thought of "cursed item as an offensive tactic" before?
Dust of sneezing and choking is far more powerful.
CR 20 creature that is not immune to posion and stunning is shut down for 5d4 round oh and if it fails the fort save loses 3d6 con.
Oh wait in a 20' spread.
Just wear a necklace of adaptation, run into the sea of badguys pop your dust and have the rogue do clean up.
Yeah, I see that. The only thing is that you normally cannot get your hands reliably on cursed items and the Dust of Sneezing is used up during use.
... Do you people think you are the first people who thought of "cursed item as an offensive tactic" before?
Uhmmm no.
Never claimed to either. I read a post and was replying.
I was putting my two cents in.
I still think it's absurd to assert a Ring of Truth is the more overpowered cursed item ever.Off the cuff I cannot think of one which has a similar potential to disrupt a campaign.
1) I have pointed out MULTIPLE REASONS why Ring of Truth does not disrupt anything.
2) What about the Helm of Opposite Alignment? Medallion of Thought Projection? Robe of Powerlessness?
Yeah, I see that. The only thing is that you normally cannot get your hands reliably on cursed items and the Dust of Sneezing is used up during use.Dust of sneezing and choking is far more powerful.
CR 20 creature that is not immune to posion and stunning is shut down for 5d4 round oh and if it fails the fort save loses 3d6 con.
Oh wait in a 20' spread.
Just wear a necklace of adaptation, run into the sea of badguys pop your dust and have the rogue do clean up.
This entire thread is based on your supposition that you can find a cursed ring and convince some one to wear it in a very specific type of campaign
Any GM who puts this in their game and then follows up with a series of murder mystery adventures deserves what's coming to him.
In any case, this isn't overpowered. Many posters have already given more traditional methods of getting the truth out of suspects.
What's more, it is hardly the most overpowered cursed item ever. That epic level great wyrm gold dragon that has been terrorizing your country lately? Throw some dust of choking and sneezing in his face and you'll have an average of 12 rounds to battle him COMPLETELY UNOPPOSED. No attack roll. No save. No SR. Just the stunned condition for 5d4 rounds FOR A MERE 1,800gp.
That tyrant whose been making your people's lives hell? Suck up to him. Then give him a necklace of strangulation as a gift. Provided it gets around his neck, he's screwed. There s no way to get it off unless he has someone available to cast limited wish or wish. By the time they can get someone to him to cast it, he's likely already dead. Automatic 1d6 damage per round with no attack, no save, no SR, no way to remove it short of high level spells.
And you think the ring of Truth is broken when used by players? Many cursed items aren't balanced at all when used offensively.
Though Dust of Sneezing and Choking is far more powerful, and the best offensive cursed item!...
That's right auto stun in 20' spread for 5d4 round NO SAVE!
This is the most powerful cursed item. It's pretty much an auto-kill against any creature that breathes.
1) I have pointed out MULTIPLE REASONS why Ring of Truth does not disrupt anything.I still think it's absurd to assert a Ring of Truth is the more overpowered cursed item ever.Off the cuff I cannot think of one which has a similar potential to disrupt a campaign.
Only because you find no problem with it doesn't mean no others can. And you cannot think of a way how this can disrupt a campaign? Really?
Example a.) The players are not supposed to find out that a certain NPC is a villain. Problem: The grab a henchman of the "mysterious organization doing bad things" off the street and put the Ring of Truth on him. At this point, the GM is either forced to make henchman ignorant of whom his boss is or let him tell the truth. Which results in the GM having to chuck two sessions worth of work.
This, btw., is exactly what would happen in such a situation with one of the AP's Paizo published. Actually, it would happen at the very least three times in that AP.
2) What about the Helm of Opposite Alignment? Medallion of Thought Projection? Robe of Powerlessness?
I guess the Helm would be the only thing which comes remotely true to being a 100% functional truth serum. Oh, only that the helm allows a DC 15 Will save. Right.
This is the most powerful cursed item. It's pretty much an auto-kill against any creature that breathes.
Throw some dust of choking and sneezing in his face and you'll have an average of 12 rounds to battle him COMPLETELY UNOPPOSED. No attack roll. No save. No SR. Just the stunned condition for 5d4 rounds FOR A MERE 1,800gp.
Right, I already said the dust is more powerful. Yet, it is a one-use item and as far as game mechanics go, you can't easily get it again.
And, yes, I know that the Ring of Truth is also not obtainable by going to the magic item shop. But if you "give out" only one time a cursed item, the Ring has much more devastating long-time consequences.
Any GM who puts this in their game and then follows up with a series of murder mystery adventures deserves what's coming to him.
It's also great for interrogating prisoners about where the treasure chamber is. Pretty ideal for Paladins, to be sure.
Only because you find no problem with it doesn't mean no others can. And you cannot think of a way how this can disrupt a campaign? Really?
I can think of no way this disrupts a campaign above and beyond the myriad of level 0 through 9 divination spells
Example a.) The players are not supposed to find out that a certain NPC is a villain. Problem: The grab a henchman of the "mysterious organization doing bad things" off the street and put the Ring of Truth on him. At this point, the GM is either forced to make henchman ignorant of whom his boss is or let him tell the truth. Which results in the GM having to chuck two sessions worth of work.
Candle of Truth, Zone of Truth, Detect Thoughts, Seek Thoughts, magic items there related, following the henchman through means both mundane and magical
Two rules of DMing
1) Any puzzle or adventure that could be easily solved by magic is a bad puzzle or adventure.
2) No matter how ridiculous or unlikely you make a solution to a puzzle, the players will always come up with one even more absurd.
This, btw., is exactly what would happen in such a situation with one of the AP's Paizo published. Actually, it would happen at the very least three times in that AP.
Please elaborate upon how and where the PCs obtained a cursed Ring of Truth in an AP?
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I think that this becomes more of a failure of GM rather than a failure of item. If you are running a mystery game, why would you place this cursed item in the game?
If you are running a desert game where part of the parties job is to find water for a town, do you allow them to easily find a decanter of endless water, or do they quest for it?
Also, do you have any problems with the Confess Spell?
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration 1 round
Saving Throw Will partial; see text; Spell Resistance yes
You ask the target creature a single question. On the subject's next action, it must answer truthfully in the same language as the question or take 1d6 points of damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d6) and be sickened for 2d4 rounds. A successful Will save negates the sickening effect and halves the damage. A creature that is unable to answer still takes damage.
They either have to answer truthfully or eat damage (even on a successful save). Failure to answer is just like telling a lie for this spell. Heck gagging them so that they cannot answer counts as a lie even.
I can think of no way this disrupts a campaign above and beyond the myriad of level 0 through 9 divination spells
Those spells work mechanically different. The Candle of Truth would probably work the same way due to statistics ( at some point, a one will come up on that D20 ), yet it is a one-use item.
Two rules of DMing
1) Any puzzle or adventure that could be easily solved by magic is a bad puzzle or adventure.
2) No matter how ridiculous or unlikely you make a solution to a puzzle, the players will always come up with one even more absurd.
Sure, the ideal solution is to not have this item appear in your campaign. That's why I was writing this thread, to warn GM's that it would have bad consequences to introduce it.
But in case that someone makes that mistake? That person can probably forget about ever having a secret hide-out remain secret, as long as there are henchman which can be taken captive ( and which are not incredibly ignorant of everything in a villains organization ).
Please elaborate upon how and where the PCs obtained a cursed Ring of Truth in an AP?
I was using that as an example of possible situations where this item would cause problems for a GM and not as a pointer to specific AP.
Also, do you have any problems with the Confess Spell?
** spoiler omitted **
They either have to answer truthfully or eat damage (even on a successful save). Failure to answer is just like telling a lie for this spell. Heck gagging them so that they cannot answer counts as a lie even.
Seeing as this would probably count as torture and I'd slap a good-aligned Inquisitor with an alignment penalty, no, I got no problem with that spell. It still allows the wearer to just shut up and take the pain, which is a good way for a GM to play cult fanatics.
Sure, the ideal solution is to not have this item appear in your campaign. That's why I was writing this thread, to warn GM's that it would have bad consequences to introduce it.
But in case that someone makes that mistake? That person can probably forget about ever having a secret hide-out remain secret, as long as there are henchman which can be taken captive ( and which are not incredibly ignorant of everything in a villains organization ).
I have to assume at this point that you are just refusing to acknowledge that a myriad other spells, magic items, and mundane means can elicit from other characters the truth or any information the character using them wants.
I was using that as an example of possible situations where this item would cause problems for a GM and not as a pointer to specific AP.
Then your example was inapplicable.
And since I don't plan on argueing about super nitty-gritty example cases, here's my scenario in which I'd see this item getting to be a problem:
1.) Careless GM introduces this item as a joke item/to have a scene where a PC has to betray his party.
2.) The Ring of Truth gets into the hands of the party, after the villain using it has been vanquished.
3.) The players begin to use the ring as a tool to get 100% sure confessions out of opponents, be it for a murder mystery or for getting vital information out of henchmen. They may even use it on a captured villain to get his masterplan from him.
4.) The GM loses several avenues of storytelling. No more secret hide-outs, no more hidden treasure-chambers, no more villains hiding as honest businessmen.
Yeah, grantedly, that will probably not happen to experienced GM's. It sure as hell won't happen to me. But I've known GM's who didn't have that experience or didn't want to take away a nice item from their group once they had it.
The Ring of Truth has the potential to be very game-disrupting for inexperienced GM's, who fail to grasp the power over the plot they are giving their players with this. That's all I wanted to point out.
Never used cursed items in my game. Except as plot devices. The murderous berserker killing women on the edges of civilization is really a former guard for the town, transformed by a cursed sword that forces him into a rage that changes his entire being. Players were level one. They removed the curse in the only way the guard knew how.
Cutting his hand off while he held the sword.
Yes, the Ring of Truth has the theoretical potential to ruin a bunch of poorly thought out or can't-see-the-forest-for-the-trees plots of hapless DMs. Just like all other Divination, Charm, Compulsion spell and spell effects.
Not the vibe I got in your original post about 'most overpowered item' and all.
The Ring of Truth has the potential to be very game-disrupting for inexperienced GM's, who fail to grasp the power over the plot they are giving their players with this. That's all I wanted to point out.
Yeah, I got talked down from that. I guess my initial reaction was more of the kind of "OMG, really?!?". :p
But, still, not an item I'd ever allow in my campaign. Hell, I will cross my fingers nobody of my players even accidentally reads about, otherwise I'll have to slap down my resident "powergamer who cannot shut up and gets pouty when I tell him no". ^^
If the secret head of the "organization of doing really bad things" lets every low-level lackey in on his secret identity, you don't need a Ring of Truth to find this out. A bottle of wine will do as well, or just one minute talking to the town gossip.
Murder mysteries are dicey in any fantasy setting because magic can solve most anything. Speak with Dead and Raise Dead both let you talk to the victim, Speak with Plant and Stone Tell give you impartial witnesses, Speak With Animal and Charm Animal gives you an amazing spy network, and you can get even fancier by casting on Awaken on a rat or housecat.
The Ring of Truth? Yes, it's cheap and useful, but not foolproof. Speak with Plant and Stone Tell, OTOH, are foolproof, and if the law accepts the testimony of a potted palm or a cobblestone?
The only way to keep murder mysteries like this going is to limit the magical power available, including such things as the Ring of Truth.
There's also the possibility that, since cursed items result from failed enchantments, throwing Remove Curse on them debugs them, turning them back into whatever item they were supposed to be.
Wait I thought Dust of Sneezing and Choking was supposed to be the most overpowered cursed item ;)
Even if they get it on my finger. It's still my word against their's. I can claim the ring is magically enchanted to force someone
Truth
to confess to a crime they never commited and the PC's are trying to frame me.
Lie. Can't do that.