Miniatures Kickstarter Ninja Division


Third-Party Starfinder Products

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I too went all in. I received two small packages, probably the 1st & 2nd waves. Now I am worried that $400 is bye bye. Paypal nor Kickstarter will even condsider refunds since it goes beyond their timelines to report violations. I am hopeful that Paizo can remedy this, it would be a shame to tarnish the work that went into Starfinder from Ninja Division.


Stormforge wrote:
I too went all in. I received two small packages, probably the 1st & 2nd waves. Now I am worried that $400 is bye bye. Paypal nor Kickstarter will even condsider refunds since it goes beyond their timelines to report violations. I am hopeful that Paizo can remedy this, it would be a shame to tarnish the work that went into Starfinder from Ninja Division.

You got TWO entire packages!? I'm guessing you got the same dozen the smattering of people got, just in 2 boxes.

It does seem as if ND have figured the "string them along till they have no recourse" strategy pretty down. If only that were a legitimate business move and not scumbag tactics.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
James Todd wrote:

I'm trying to recall the timeline, but as far as I can tell Paizo would have to be negligent or willfully blind to have done this.

SDE:L was...a year? ...late when they started this. Simple vetting of this partner would have shown issues in pretty much ALL recent KS projects from ND, and in fact in SDE you can see clear misstatements/lies about the state of the project.

I, and many others raised red flags for Paizo before the kickstarter ended.

Paizo made a statement that they had full confidence in Ninja Division to fulfill the pledges.

Paizo made the statement that they believed a shady company over the word of their long time customers.

Paizo needs to make this right.

I am just glad I was only in for a little over 100. I knew the risk was there. Warned others that the risk was there, but I also wanted access to the miniatures.

Paizo told me to have confidence it would be fulfilled. I told everyone backing to only pledge what they were willing to donate.

Got about 20, maybe 25 worth of miniatures. So here's hoping I get the other 75, but at this point it is likely a donation to a previous kickstarter.

Unless Paizo can make this right.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I'm not surprised. When you get your Ninja Division miniatures, they're usually very nice (assuming they're in one piece, I suppose!) so I went in with some friends for a small amount. We knew the risks. I can afford to take my loss, and honestly, 4 minis for $50 isn't the worst deal ever. At least I'm not into miniature wargaming!

The apparent failure of the KS's still disappointing, of course. I've backed a fair number of kickstarters (looks like 177 to date--you've got me beat by only a few, TOZ!) and this'll be failure either 3, 4, or 5, depending on how you count partial deliveries and companies that need a second kickstarter to deliver the goods.

It looked like they'd made some pretty good progress on the digital sculpts, though. Maybe someone can pick up rights to the files, work with Paizo on a license, and work with the manufacturer Ninja Division contracted with to get some of the minis out the door and into the marketplace. Not that the backers should expect to get minis fulfilled by a new company, should this happen (and with the license challenges, I bet it's a long shot), but at least some of the renders we saw could be made real and purchasable that way.


Terminalmancer wrote:


It looked like they'd made some pretty good progress on the digital sculpts, though. Maybe someone can pick up rights to the files, work with Paizo on a license, and work with the manufacturer Ninja Division contracted with to get some of the minis out the door and into the marketplace. Not that the backers should expect to get minis fulfilled by a new company, should this happen (and with the license challenges, I bet it's a long shot), but at least some of the renders we saw could be made real and purchasable that way.

If you honestly believe that they even have that completed, I have some beachfront property in Arizona to sell you.

I'll believe it when they post ALL their sculpts publically.


They did that a long time ago on the pledge manager

https://www.gameontabletop.com/crowdfunding-91.html

The sculpts were the only thing they actually did


Apparently some random guy on the KS "just received" more minis, and is asking everybody to be nice to ND. Suuuuuure...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Probably from the "first wave", just took that long to arrive.

Also sending out further minis to random people without any communication overall is just as bad as long not everyone receives what they backed for.

I was interested in some other ND products, but right now i'm refraining from buying anything in that direction.
This no communication thing really is worst.
If they made mistakes, at least communicate it and admitt it.

I had some very good other kickstarters where there were problems with production, but they directly told everything with total transparancy and once they had a new timeline communicated that and stuck to it.
Everybody was fine there.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Hayato Ken wrote:

This no communication thing really is worst.

If they made mistakes, at least communicate it and admitt it.

I had some very good other kickstarters where there were problems with production, but they directly told everything with total transparancy and once they had a new timeline communicated that and stuck to it.
Everybody was fine there.

Absolutely. Even when they had someone posting semi regularly, he used to claim to be holding back until he was absolutely sure of the accuracy of the information he was providing - which nearly always turned out to be wrong anyhow.

An update saying nothing has changed (or regular updates about unexpected delays) is far, far preferable to radio silence.


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And the radio silence continues from Ninja, I can only presume it has gone belly up and we'll all have to mark it up as a "learning" experience (ie. steer well clear of any Kickstarters in future) :-(


I read a few things that caught my attention that the company ND/Sodapop uses to actually produce their miniatures has stopped producing for ND/Sodapop due to non-payment. This info is posted in the KS comments as well as on a few gaming sites.


I doubt I will ever see a miniature from this kickstarter. It is a shame, but it is what it is.


Steve Geddes wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:

This no communication thing really is worst.

If they made mistakes, at least communicate it and admitt it.

I had some very good other kickstarters where there were problems with production, but they directly told everything with total transparancy and once they had a new timeline communicated that and stuck to it.
Everybody was fine there.

Absolutely. Even when they had someone posting semi regularly, he used to claim to be holding back until he was absolutely sure of the accuracy of the information he was providing - which nearly always turned out to be wrong anyhow.

An update saying nothing has changed (or regular updates about unexpected delays) is far, far preferable to radio silence.

Its interesting you say this but I have noticed in the past the more Creators use the "waiting to provide accurate information" as the excuse for lack of communication the LESS accurate the rare bits of information they post are.


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Mm. My advice to new creators has always been "set a schedule of regular updates - typically every 2-4 weeks, except maybe on projects with a short duration until fulfillment because most of the work is done - and stick to it no matter what". I just kind of assume delays are going to happen, and regular communication tends to keep backers happy while the problems get fixed, thereby making it much more likely the creator's next project will also be successful because people are more willing to invest again.

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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Just checking in. I don't have any news that I can share at this time.


is there any news you can't share though? :P

Dataphiles

I feel like I want to mention my own reasons for backing, as I've seen a fair few comments which have said people who backed didn't do research, as Ninja Division were obviously "shady"

Around the time of the kickstarter, I had received my backer rewards for another Ninja Division project, specifically the Rail Raiders Infinite board game.

Now, here are some images from the time when i got them Imgur Gallery

(Please excuse my painting skills, I hadn't painted for about 10 years before these)

Now, other than one model having a bent gun, I was very much impressed by these. They were plastic and shorter than you might see elsewhere, but I ended up using these models for starfinder and other scifi RPGs.

Now, Ninja Division did not do a great job of the kickstarter. They were around 52 weeks late from the estimate, but it did finally arrive and was appreciated. I predicted a similar level of things to go wrong, and maybe around this time I'd be receiving the first package (as a UK backer).

I'm not saying I approve of how they are apparently doing their business, and I do hope that someone is able to step in, buy out Ninja Division's debt and finish the obligations to the backers, but I would like to point out that they have successfully delivered in the past.


Rail Raiders...

Wasn't that the kickstarter that ND was selling at cons and even in retail before fulfilling all the pledges?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
RustyHarlequin wrote:
And the radio silence continues from Ninja, I can only presume it has gone belly up and we'll all have to mark it up as a "learning" experience (ie. steer well clear of any Kickstarters in future) :-(

I'd recommend that only for Ninja Division. This was my first Kickstarter outside of Reaper. I got my Reaper Bones orders within a couple of months of expected shipping. I was intending on using Space Mouselings and the Bones Chronoscope KS set as supplemental miniatures for my Starfinder games, but it has been the other way around with the few ND minis that have actually shipped.

(On the plus side, players seem to enjoy seeing repurposed X-Wing minis for ship combat instead of the eight that we're waiting on.)


I’ve been burned too many times. This will be the last Kickstarter I support. Too bad, I expected more from a Paizo-endorsed product.


kadance wrote:

Rail Raiders...

Wasn't that the kickstarter that ND was selling at cons and even in retail before fulfilling all the pledges?

Wait, people from ND actually show up at cons trying to sell stuff after these debacles? I might have to go to one just to give them a piece of my mind...


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Sinvel Menter wrote:
kadance wrote:

Rail Raiders...

Wasn't that the kickstarter that ND was selling at cons and even in retail before fulfilling all the pledges?

Wait, people from ND actually show up at cons trying to sell stuff after these debacles? I might have to go to one just to give them a piece of my mind...

They are most likely merchant intermediaries that have 0% input/knowledge on how things are being handled (cause I highly doubt the head(s) of ND are out in public like that). Giving them “a piece of your mind” would be just as an effective as giving the cashier at McDonalds “a piece of your mind” over the food they’re selling.


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This would have been a completely different experience if Paizo had been able to license Starfinder to WizKids or Reaper. I just hope this wasn't a case of Paizo having unrealistic expectations. Then, not hearing what they wanted from their old Pathfinder mini partners, picked Ninja Division because they told Paizo everything they wanted to hear.

That's what Ninja Division does to their backers, after all.


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If I understand and remember correctly, the first companies Paizo approached didn't have room in their schedule for the expected/preferred timeline, so Paizo moved on. ...Clearly, the actual timeline isn't the timeline Paizo was hoping for, either, but I don't think Paizo had unrealistic expectations about what it would take to get this done. They're not exactly new to the figurine business.


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I gather Ninja Division is a very good at presentation and salesmanship, not so much at production.

I have no doubt Paizo thought they were taking the necessary precautions and were as blindsided by ND as everyone else.

I also have no doubt they are hurting as much as the backers are over this, but, as business people and professionals in partnership with ND, do not have the luxury to vent as we do, no matter how much they might want to.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The thing is, i have some minis from ND from the humble bundle, some other ND/sodapop minis and some of their games with minis.
They are all very good.

Which is why i really don't understand this misery.


Hayato Ken wrote:

The thing is, i have some minis from ND from the humble bundle, some other ND/sodapop minis and some of their games with minis.

They are all very good.

Which is why i really don't understand this misery.

You don't understand this misery? You don't think people being shafted out of hundreds of dollars is a reason for people to complain? ND are straight up crooks. They've cut off all communication. Nothing since September.

Grand Lodge

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Hayato does not understand the misery given that ND has produced very good minis, so their failure to do the same for this one is baffling. They are capable of delivering, so why are they inflicting such misery?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yes TOZ rephrased what i meant.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Hayato does not understand the misery given that ND has produced very good minis, so their failure to do the same for this one is baffling. They are capable of delivering, so why are they inflicting such misery?

Reading this in Mojo Jojo’s voice makes it all the better.


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And now I'm in the situation that, even if by some miracle I got my all-in pledge, I no longer want it.

The window in which I could have started a Starfinder campaign with my group has passed.

Frankly, I'm now so soured on a whole system for which I was originally really enthusiastic that I wouldn't run a campaign even if the opportunity arose.


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MadMattUK wrote:

And now I'm in the situation that, even if by some miracle I got my all-in pledge, I no longer want it.

The window in which I could have started a Starfinder campaign with my group has passed.

Frankly, I'm now so soured on a whole system for which I was originally really enthusiastic that I wouldn't run a campaign even if the opportunity arose.

Yeah, I don't think that Paizo acknowledge that type of experience enough publicly or recognize the long term significance for the game that it has. Let's go over the early adopter (the most loyal type of customer) experience for the game if you went all in. You got a book that fell apart almost instantly (admittedly they fixed that after the fact but it could take months and reports now show some replacement books suffer a similar if delayed problem) and at best got a dozen of the miniatures out of over a hundred funded with people reporting that even that tiny fraction were frequently of dubious quality. Have there been bright spots? Sure, the adventure paths and the boxed sets are popular quality products but it doesn't negate that the core experience has been deeply flawed.

I don't believe that Paizo are in any position to force Ninja Division's hand so I don't expect that but I do expect a public acknowledgement of just how much of a bad situation it really is as opposed to just taking a just hope and wait and see approach publicly. I'd also hope to see in the case of a failed crowdfunding venture like this to see what they did to ensure its success in the first place knowing that ND had a long history of at best delayed projects and what their plan is going forward. It's one thing if a company's joint venture with another takes a nose dive as I don't think customers deserve any "insider" knowledge if their own money wasn't wasted but it's another when that initial capital is put up by the end customers and they're the ones left with little to no product to show for such a sizable monetary input. YMMV.

I can't speak for anyone here but myself but I backed the Robotech Tactics kickstarter by Ninja Division and Palladium and that failed spectacularly. For four years, the owners of that IP did the same thing that Paizo is doing now publicly despite the obvious serious problems with fulfillment and I can guarantee you that I'll never buy another Robotech product until they lose the Macross license. They chose a temporary single licensee over thousands of their own customers and let the former screw over the latter. I just hope that Paizo doesn't burn bridges with those types of customers by their own public (in)action.


"We have complete faith in Ninja Division - Soda Pop to follow through with their promises in the Kickstarter or we would not have partnered with them."

And how did that work out there Jeff Alvarez, COO?

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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Just wanted to check in and let you know that with the holidays, I do not foresee being able to check in with our Licensing Manager or Execs for news until after the new year. I will follow up with them & this thread on Monday, January 8th, 2019.

Liberty's Edge

Can I ask what are they doing in this process? Are they calling them, writing regular emails or something along those lines?

The Exchange

Just adding my name to the long list of people burned by this Kickstarter. After having bought in at the 100 USD Adventure level and spending almost that again on backerkit add ons I have to date received 4 miniatures, a pittance of what I am owed. Additionally I had also bought the humble bundle containing miniatures from them which I did receive in the end albeit 3 months late and with Tarzan having a different mold than originally advertised


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Sara Marie wrote:
Just wanted to check in and let you know that with the holidays, I do not foresee being able to check in with our Licensing Manager or Execs for news until after the new year. I will follow up with them & this thread on Monday, January 8th, 2019.

I appreciate you checking in even if you don't have any information. Given that it has been almost exactly 3 months since Ninja Division bothered to update your customers on this project, I sincerely hope that you'll have concrete information and possibly a plan of action regarding how to proceed after January 8th. I don't expect good news nor any miracles from Paizo but rather just something more definitive to go on than a generic statement about patience and hope. Ninja Division is burning your bridges with your customers as this isn't a typical retail situation where the only thing for players to worry about is a delay in an upcoming product; a half million dollars of your customers' money already spent on your brand is at stake.


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The fact that a small handful of minis seem to have spurted out into random backers like the last bit of condiment spraying from an empty condiment bottle has me a little confused. You'd think they'd be trying to spin it as their comeback or at the very least mentioning it in any way...


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technarken wrote:
The fact that a small handful of minis seem to have spurted out into random backers like the last bit of condiment spraying from an empty condiment bottle has me a little confused. You'd think they'd be trying to spin it as their comeback or at the very least mentioning it in any way...

The cynic in me says it’s a strategy to legally claim they haven’t yet fallen foul of the Kickstarter terms of service:

“It’s delayed sure, but we’re still in the fulfilment stage. Honest!”

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
technarken wrote:
The fact that a small handful of minis seem to have spurted out into random backers like the last bit of condiment spraying from an empty condiment bottle has me a little confused. You'd think they'd be trying to spin it as their comeback or at the very least mentioning it in any way...

I really feel bad that I have gotten 10 mini's from ND because so many of you have gotten nothing. I am just wondering where Paizo will try next to get miniatures for starfinder made?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

My guess is that they'll renegotiate with WizKids and/or Reaper, and start getting a line together. Heck, as far as we know, that might be already happening, and Paizo is just getting their uplifted ducks in a row before announcing anything.


Misroi wrote:
My guess is that they'll renegotiate with WizKids and/or Reaper, and start getting a line together. Heck, as far as we know, that might be already happening, and Paizo is just getting their uplifted ducks in a row before announcing anything.

I can't wait to not buy any until I get something from what money I've already put in

Shadow Lodge

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Weird flex but okay.

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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J-Bone wrote:

Can I ask what are they doing in this process? Are they calling them, writing regular emails or something along those lines?

Unfortunately, I'm not able to disclose any details.


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So, you're saying there are details...


Stormforge wrote:
I too went all in. I received two small packages, probably the 1st & 2nd waves. Now I am worried that $400 is bye bye. Paypal nor Kickstarter will even condsider refunds since it goes beyond their timelines to report violations. I am hopeful that Paizo can remedy this, it would be a shame to tarnish the work that went into Starfinder from Ninja Division.

Ditto on the got 2 packages thing. I think each package was MAYBE 4 minis, and they didn't even match up with the minis I was SUPPOSED to get (and one of them had an invoice for I think 10 minis, but I only got 4.

I went for the Campaign pledge ($180) and also tried to get one of the dragons, but it wouldn't let me, and there were some seriously wonky communications with ND. I can't even complain on the Kickstarter because I came in as a late pledge, and my Kickstarter account doesn't recognize that I'm a backer (I guess I'm some sort of 'under the table' backer, which makes me even more nervous).

I keep checking back on the campaign page and checking the comments, but it's looking kind of grim. I've almost given up hope honestly.

I DID buy the prepainted Corpse Fleet and Iconic Heroes packs from my local game store when they got them in for my Dead Suns campaign, but I'm afraid that I'll never see my beloved Vesk fleet or space goblins :(


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TOZ wrote:
Weird flex but okay.

Put another way: I'm not buying Paizo products until either Ninja Division delivers, Paizo makes good on ND's scammery somehow, or I borrow enough friends' copies of newer Paizo material to equal $400.


Sabirwolf wrote:
Stormforge wrote:
I too went all in. I received two small packages, probably the 1st & 2nd waves. Now I am worried that $400 is bye bye. Paypal nor Kickstarter will even condsider refunds since it goes beyond their timelines to report violations. I am hopeful that Paizo can remedy this, it would be a shame to tarnish the work that went into Starfinder from Ninja Division.

Ditto on the got 2 packages thing. I think each package was MAYBE 4 minis, and they didn't even match up with the minis I was SUPPOSED to get (and one of them had an invoice for I think 10 minis, but I only got 4.

I went for the Campaign pledge ($180) and also tried to get one of the dragons, but it wouldn't let me, and there were some seriously wonky communications with ND. I can't even complain on the Kickstarter because I came in as a late pledge, and my Kickstarter account doesn't recognize that I'm a backer (I guess I'm some sort of 'under the table' backer, which makes me even more nervous).

I keep checking back on the campaign page and checking the comments, but it's looking kind of grim. I've almost given up hope honestly.

I DID buy the prepainted Corpse Fleet and Iconic Heroes packs from my local game store when they got them in for my Dead Suns campaign, but I'm afraid that I'll never see my beloved Vesk fleet or space goblins :(

You are indeed an under the table backer. Ninja Division is already recorded as omitting people like you (from their previous crowdfunding campaigns) when speaking to an Attorney General.

I'd say you have even less chance of getting anything than we do.

Grand Lodge

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technarken wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Weird flex but okay.
Put another way: I'm not buying Paizo products until either Ninja Division delivers, Paizo makes good on ND's scammery somehow, or I borrow enough friends' copies of newer Paizo material to equal $400.

Good luck.

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