Miniatures Kickstarter Ninja Division


Third-Party Starfinder Products

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Steve Geddes wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:


What happened here looks a lot like fraud to me, because the money from the pledges should be bound to the actual project pledged for and not be redirected to different projects or used to fill empty coffers.
Even if KS don’t want to take any part in post-funding quality control, I wish they’d implement a requirement to include a budget in every project, together with mandatory monthly or quarterly reports to that budget after the fact.

Yes that would be a real good decision and probably also a great help to a lot of companies.

I really wonder with how bad of a management some companies can even exist.


Glenn Elliott wrote:

Sometimes silence means nothing more than there's nothing new to say.

We continue to do everything we can to help Ninja Division fulfill all of their commitments. They have now successfully shipped all of the Humble Bundle figures and the pre-painted sets that they started before the Kickstarter. In the end, both of those turned out great. If you can look at the pre-painted sets objectively, they're pretty amazing figures.

Ninja Division's Starfinder Masterclass Kickstarter has been trying and frustrating for everyone involved, and that includes Ninja Division. They're no happier about the way this has gone than you are, or we are. They're working diligently to correct manufacturing and shipping problems as fast as they can, and we're doing everything we can to help them. I wouldn't say that it has been a perfect storm, but while the issues that they've faced are fairly normal in the business it isn't normal to have them all happen on the same project.

We remain optimistic that Ninja Division will eventually be able to fulfill the Kickstarter, but we don't have a timeline for when that will happen. All we can do is continue to work with them, support them, and help them as much as we can.

As always, if you have questions about the Kickstarter, you should direct them to Ninja Division at either info@ninjadivision.com or starfinder@ninjadivision.com.

I feel really bad for all the people who backed this project without first looking up the glorious debacle that was the Robotech kickstarter.

This response by Glenn is almost verbatim from Kevin Siembieda's numerous excuses during that fiasco.

Y'all ain't never seeing any product and if the previous KS with Palladium is any example, at best you can expect for Paizo to try and fulfill what product you're owed with what product they already have (which most of you probably already have), but will charge you shipping and handling for them (an an ridiculous markup if they follow Palladium's example)


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I would like to see an official response from paizo in light of this new information that we aren't getting anything from a company they endorced. I mean I find it jacked I can find images online of them showing off all the models at cons but some how we are getting nothing for this deal...


Every day I check this forum and the Kickstarter page and every day I get angry and frustrate to the point where I'm tempted to go in and highjack every post on the Paizo forums using some creative wording that ties it into the Kickstarter.
Something along the lines of:

"Oh you want to discuss Pathfinder 2.0, well how about Starfinder miniatures 2.0 since 1.0 was such a bloody disaster"

But then I breath and relax a little and it passes...but it's getting harder and harder to contain myself.

Please Paizo...step up! Don't make me become Old Man Jinteki42.


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Yeah, I backed for quite a bit and then went all in during the pledge manager. Now I’m just sad and bummed. I’ve been a Paizo fan for years and when they were pushing out information about their partnership to make minis for Starfinder available that’s what really got me excited for the game. Now I’ve got maybe 10 minis and a hole in my bank account where $500 used to be.
It just makes me bummed.
I am interested in what Paizo has to say about it. I hope it isn’t just echoes of the same silence we’ve had from ND.


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I think their recent comment on the matter was the result of a message sent to them. If you're looking for a specific response, I suggest mailing press@paizo.com (which is their Public Relations email - seems appropriate) with a polite query clearly stating the facts and what information you'd like to know. For example, "this document to an Attorney General was posted in the Kickstarter thread on insert-date-here; was Paizo aware of the information it contains, and if not, does it change your expectation of whether or not Ninja Division will eventually be able to deliver the miniatures"?

(Remember, Paizo doesn't have much control of the situation here, and a polite/professional message will probably get a better response. Especially if you ask for a public statement in a specific place like this thread, rather than an email response. o wo It might be helpful to ask if they have any plans to impose stricter requirements on transparency from partners in the future.)


Rednal wrote:

I think their recent comment on the matter was the result of a message sent to them. If you're looking for a specific response, I suggest mailing press@paizo.com (which is their Public Relations email - seems appropriate) with a polite query clearly stating the facts and what information you'd like to know. For example, "this document to an Attorney General was posted in the Kickstarter thread on insert-date-here; was Paizo aware of the information it contains, and if not, does it change your expectation of whether or not Ninja Division will eventually be able to deliver the miniatures"?

(Remember, Paizo doesn't have much control of the situation here, and a polite/professional message will probably get a better response. Especially if you ask for a public statement in a specific place like this thread, rather than an email response. o wo It might be helpful to ask if they have any plans to impose stricter requirements on transparency from partners in the future.)

Good call! I’ll get to that. If nothing else, I do appreciate the company in commiseration from all of you.


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My understanding is that Paizo hasn't been paid yet, and I can't imagine they're any happier about the situation than we are. After all, branding is important, and they don't want to make players upset. They want you to enjoy their game. They may also know more than we do - they're professionals, and if they still think Ninja Division will eventually be able to deliver the mini's, they probably have a reason to think that.

...Which doesn't help players who hoped to be using these minis a long time ago, of course, but I understand why Paizo might try to do whatever they can to try and get the best possible resolution here (even if that resolution isn't as ideal as they, or the KS backers, want).

In other words, I think Paizo is also a victim here, and I'm not sure what - if anything - they could have done differently with the knowledge they had at the time. If anyone does send a message, aside from being polite, perhaps it would be worth asking what other people can do to help? There may not be anything, but I do think being nice will get everyone a lot further.

(Note: I'm not a KS backer here, I'm just an interested outsider.)


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I must say that I am very disappointed at how Paizo is handling this fiasco with ninja division and their kickstarter project for the miniatures. I would never have put my money into this project if it weren’t for Paizo assuring us that it is worth backing. Even when you look at the kickstarter page Paizo has their name and logo all over it right there next to ninja division. The fact that things seem to be going belly up with this project and Paizo has nothing to say about it. The right thing for Paizo to do would be to step up and offer something as a sign of good faith and appreciation to their customers. This entire thing seems rather fraudulent to me at least. The fact that funds were secured under false pretenses to cover past expenses with no intention to follow through. I truly do feel bad that the owners of ninja division are going through such hardships, as a fellow business owner I feel for them, however, in my opinion it is unethical what they did and since they are not able to follow through on their commitment then as their partner in this endeavor I believe it should fall on Paizo to make it right to the people who have invested. It is the ethically responsible thing to do.


There's most likely legal stuff going at this point which they can't really go blabbing about on random forum threads about, which is difficult since it'll most likely involve collecting the money (which doesn't exist anymore), minis (which aren't being made), damages (again with the whole no money thing), etc.

As for what Paizo can do, since ND was outsourcing the production of the minis to Archron (if I understand their involvement correctly) they could work together after this to complete fulfillment. Once the "middle man" has been properly excised.


All-in backer here. I saw that ND had some issues in the past, but I pledged based on Paizo's involvement and Paizo's assurance that this Kickstarter was on the level. I understand that Paizo is in a bad situation because of what ND did and they're most likely a victim along with the rest of us. What bothers me is that there's no word (that I've seen at least, and please correct me if I'm wrong) from Paizo saying this. Or, saying that they're working with ND or their lawyers or Archron to cut out ND and fulfill these orders. It just makes me very disappointed in Paizo and a lot less likely to order their products in the future.


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Sandoz wrote:
Or, saying that they're working with ND or their lawyers or Archron to cut out ND and fulfill these orders.

If they are doing that then they definitely can't talk about it.

Something something legal something something lawyers...


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Ninja Division Facebook wrote:
Hi xy ! Thank you for contacting us. We cannot respond directly through Facebook, so please contact us at info@sodapopminiatures.com. Thank you!

Nice. Anyone received an answer from that mail adress at some point?

Dataphiles

Hayato Ken wrote:

This looks like real bad news.

So they took on new appointments with empty coffers due to blatant mismanagement? Might go out of business and all the pledges are gone?

That would really stink big time.
I don't believe doing a KS is like a possible investment.
What happened here looks a lot like fraud to me, because the money from the pledges should be bound to the actual project pledged for and not be redirected to different projects or used to fill empty coffers.

I don’t consider this a ‘failed’ Kickstarter. The money was raised & collected, sculpts done & a manufacturer lined up to produce. As for being an investment, look up Ponzi Scheme & what happened to Bernard Madoff.

Kickstarter states in their terms in starting a Kickstarter that the person/company are responsible for the finances & can have legal action taken against them by the backers if they do not deliver.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Rednal wrote:
In other words, I think Paizo is also a victim here, and I'm not sure what - if anything - they could have done differently with the knowledge they had at the time.

A good number of people pointed out when the kickstarter was gathering funds that Ninja Division had a terrible track record of fulfilling on time, and had unfilfilled kickstarters. Heck, the first page of this very thread shows people pointing out problems with Ninja Division.

"Ninja Division couldn´t hold the initial date for the unpainted AND painted Starfinder miniatures and has no current release date for them."

"You should seriously reconsider."

"Buyer beware is all I'm seeing from the comments on this KS project."

And more, and more. And Paizo said that they had trust with Ninja Division and believed things would go well.


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Nazrath wrote:


Kickstarter states in their terms in starting a Kickstarter that the person/company are responsible for the finances & can have legal action taken against them by the backers if they do not deliver.

Legal definitions aside its a )(#*#$$ move (in the technical sense) to be involved in a business model where they take the money they do and then don't provide ANY kind of re assurance, including something as simple as not allowing a company with a proven track record of not completing kickstarter projects to keep making money on kickstarter projects.


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Hi

I am a French all in (super)backer... l went all in in the backerkit...
Well l , like many , feel cheated here... if l knew ninja division was at the origin of battle tech fiasco , l would never have backed neither went all in.... That is my confidence in Paizo that made me back...
l really think that Paizo is also a victim here and l would not like all this to go too far as l really like their products .... but having a 500$ hole in my bank account will sadly chill me a lot from any further investment ...
:(
I seriously hope things will sort out
SombreroDeLaNuit

Ps: if rumors are true about Ninja Division s Ponzi scheme , l seriously hope that American backers can organize and sue them... l think honestly that they should think about what they did for a short time... in jail.... No hope that overseas backers can do anything.... we are not citizen of the empire... ( and from now on l will stop backing non European projects)


I am sincerely hoping that Paizo will eventually step in and do the right thing. I hope that there will at least be some communication from ninja division or Paizo after the holidays settle. $500 is certainly not the end of the world however it isn’t something to toss away either. As a small business owner I realize that sometimes you need to take a bit of a financial hit to keep customer loyalty, Paizo should be smart enough to realize this especially with a slew of books to be released for pathfinder 2. I can personally say that I will not purchase a single thing from them moving forward if they let this happen to their customers.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

I don't really understand what people think Paizo should be doing.

I don't have any special insight into the process, but I'd expect the copyright on the scuplts to be owned by Ninja Division - Paizo wouldn't legally be allowed to "cut out the middle man" and just have the sculpts made. If ND go broke (which seems pretty much inevitable from the little bit of information I have) there's no way those will be made available without substantial costs. Presumably ownership of them will end up with ND's creditors (and no doubt enter a lawyers' picnic, given there's probably Paizo right-of-review in the licensing agreement with ND).

I doubt they earned much money from the licensing deal. Their support for the kickstarter was clearly worth something in convincing people to pledge, but not the entire amount. What should they do? Determine some "marketing value" of their own blog and forum posts in some way and credit people that? If so, it's likely to be something trivial compared to a several hundred dollar pledge.

ND took $450k to complete the project (plus whatever was pledged after the campaign had ended). I have less and less confidence that they would have been able to complete it with those funds, but taking that as an estimate of costs, do people really think Paizo should just foot the bill? (It'd be a $300k PR exercise at least, presuming there's some profit and licensing/kickstarter fees included in ND's take which don't need to be factored in).


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As far as I can tell, the best-case scenario is that ND convinces an outside investor that their set of products is valuable enough even with their cost overruns to be worth supporting. They get enough money to fulfill all obligations and get going again, and with renewed income, return to financial stability and put all this behind them.

Worst-case scenario is... pretty much anything else? I'm not sure they can deliver what they owe without outside funding.


So,

Best-case scenario: ND gets more money

Worst-case scenario: ND gets more money

(obviously the actual worse-case is no one gets any more minis of course)


Steve- it was actually over $750k that they took in with the late pledge through game on tabletop. I do not speculate that Paizo should pick up the entire production bill but a good faith to the backers would in my opinion be a smart business idea. Obviously this wouldn’t even be a possibility until the project is officially dead which has not happened as of yet. If Paizo took a hit on the financials by sending the backers the sets of the preprinted miniatures that they are selling that would go a very long way towards fixing the issue. It would cost them a pretty penny and they would also have to go through the process of getting the list of backers but in my opinion it would be worth it. They would obviously need to weigh out their cost on the product vs. how much future sales they estimate they will lose but I believe the math would be in their favor.


In my opinion it is not at all likely that an outside company will invest the kind of money that they would need to to purchase ND and its intellectual properties as well as absorb the costs of production. I do not predict anything will come from this as far as a resolution the backers will be happy with. However I personally would love someone to prove me wrong!


Vouching for your proverbial brother in law who's business propositions have always gone sideways with "no no no we're in this too and we have you covered" doesn't put you under any legal obligation, but the moral obligation and customers ideas of fairness are different.

I don't think paizo could cover the bill even as PDFs but something like that is what I suspect people are after.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Jimmyshap wrote:
In my opinion it is not at all likely that an outside company will invest the kind of money that they would need to to purchase ND and its intellectual properties as well as absorb the costs of production. I do not predict anything will come from this as far as a resolution the backers will be happy with. However I personally would love someone to prove me wrong!

Yeah, if one were in the position to be able to do it, it’d probably make more sense to let ND fail, then swoop in and buy the IP that might be feasible to resurrect. That way you’re not on the hook for EVERY stuffup. Just the ones you think might be salvageable.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Jimmyshap wrote:
Steve- it was actually over $750k that they took in with the late pledge through game on tabletop. I do not speculate that Paizo should pick up the entire production bill but a good faith to the backers would in my opinion be a smart business idea. Obviously this wouldn’t even be a possibility until the project is officially dead which has not happened as of yet. If Paizo took a hit on the financials by sending the backers the sets of the preprinted miniatures that they are selling that would go a very long way towards fixing the issue. It would cost them a pretty penny and they would also have to go through the process of getting the list of backers but in my opinion it would be worth it. They would obviously need to weigh out their cost on the product vs. how much future sales they estimate they will lose but I believe the math would be in their favor.

Cheers, I didn’t realise the late pledges were worth nearly as much as those raised during the project.

In terms of the prepainted minis, Paizo would need to buy them from ND (no way they’ve got stock on hand to cover every backer). And if they wait for ND to fail, that’s not going to be an option. Ultimately, I think any like-for-like form of compensation is going to need ND to come out the other side in tact and I really don’t see that happening.

Don’t get me wrong - I’m not blind to the issue (I had chosen not to back until Paizo posted that they had confidence in ND’s ability to deliver. I can understand people being sour on Paizo for that reason). I just don’t really see any way out for Paizo - I think they’ve been screwed over too by becoming involved in this project.

At best, I could imagine Paizo giving gift certificates as compensation. But it wouldn’t match the amounts backers pledged and would no doubt annoy a whole bunch anyway (as we pledged for Starfinder minis, not for the opportunity to shop at Paizo.com).


I'd happily agree to a voucher for half my pledge amount and just be done with it. Yeah, I'd still have basically thrown $200 in a paper shredder, but at least I'd have gotten something out of it.

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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Removed a post and replies. Do not advocate abusing the review function of a website on our forums.


Sara Marie wrote:
Removed a post and replies. Do not advocate abusing the review function of a website on our forums.

So you can remove posts you don’t like but not comment or draw attention to people who can comment on these issues?


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In general, I believe the community support staff aren't keen on anything that involves breaking anyone's terms of service. o wo Which seems fair to me. If you have a question about the way the forum is moderated, I think they prefer direct emails.

Speaking of fairness... I don't know if Paizo plans to do anything if ND falls through completely (I suspect they won't act one way or the other until there's a definitive conclusion to things), but perhaps providing backers some digital products would help? They can't just give people $450k of mini's because Ninja Division failed in its business obligations, but digital products are easier to provide.


I believe the deleted post in question was mine and it was pointed out to me that I may have breached some rules. I was looking into it to see if I had and was planning on deleting my post, so I am not offended with the action to delete.

As part of that original post I had indicated I was going to email companies over my dissatisfaction with their decision to enter into partnership with ND despite all the evidence that this was a terrible idea. I don't believe that crosses any lines, so I am reiterating this and to say I have sent those emails to various companies voicing my concern and advising that I will not support any of their products that are associated with ND moving forward.

This is not a complete boycott of the companies as a whole, at least not yet.

As for Paizo, I see no point in emailing as these forums should be sufficient.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Jinteki42 wrote:

I believe the deleted post in question was mine and it was pointed out to me that I may have breached some rules. I was looking into it to see if I had and was planning on deleting my post, so I am not offended with the action to delete.

As part of that original post I had indicated I was going to email companies over my dissatisfaction with their decision to enter into partnership with ND despite all the evidence that this was a terrible idea. I don't believe that crosses any lines, so I am reiterating this and to say I have sent those emails to various companies voicing my concern and advising that I will not support any of their products that are associated with ND moving forward.

This is not a complete boycott of the companies as a whole, at least not yet.

As for Paizo, I see no point in emailing as these forums should be sufficient.

I haven't gone as far as emailing companies, but I'm certainly not going to back anything Ninja Division are involved in.

Quite apart from projects with prolonged development delays, if they can't pay their bills for projects actually completed (as per the Archon comments floating around) they're in serious trouble.


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I was waiting for the miniatures before I began to play Starfinder. I believe the kickstarter mentioned a May 2018 delivery. So I still have not yet played the game. Now with this failure I really feel like I have lost my taste to play it. Combined with 2E and I feel like I am just at the end of my relationship with Paizo which is a shame as I really enjoyed them for years. It makes me feel sad.


Briit wrote:

I was waiting for the miniatures before I began to play Starfinder. I believe the kickstarter mentioned a May 2018 delivery. So I still have not yet played the game. Now with this failure I really feel like I have lost my taste to play it. Combined with 2E and I feel like I am just at the end of my relationship with Paizo which is a shame as I really enjoyed them for years. It makes me feel sad.

Just go play some starfinder. I wasn't entirely sold on the system but the SFS scenarios are an absolute hoot. If you need some sci fi minis and there's nothing else on the market just grab some sculpy and go to down, you can make something good enough.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Briit wrote:
I was waiting for the miniatures before I began to play Starfinder. I believe the kickstarter mentioned a May 2018 delivery. So I still have not yet played the game. Now with this failure I really feel like I have lost my taste to play it. Combined with 2E and I feel like I am just at the end of my relationship with Paizo which is a shame as I really enjoyed them for years. It makes me feel sad.

Sorry to hear that. Fortunately, there are plenty of other options for minis. There are pawns, and check out Reaper's Chronoscope line of minis. Don't let ND ruin the fun.


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I'm with Briit, I did research on ND and would never have backed one of their projects except that paizo ensured all was well. Now I'm out over 400$ in minis not to mention the books I've bought. I'm also a store owner who typically pushes paizo products, im telling you now that has stoped. I will no longer buy, sell, or play their games. I'm irate with anger at a company I previously adored, gamers making games for gamers my ass. And no communication on top of everything else. I haven't stepped up to DND 5e yet because I felt pathfinder was as near to perfect as I'd get, guess its back to the Forgotten Realms for this long time GM. Peace out paizo.


David Holcomb wrote:
And no communication on top of everything else.

*previous page on this thread*


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's incredibly frustrating to see the money we've put into this project just wiped away. As a US "All In" backer I still haven't received a single item from the KS. While I understand it's not Paizo's fault, they did attach their name to this, and they're now associated with an incredibly bad experience. It's enough to sour me on the game as a whole. It truly sucks that the actions of a third party will likely have significant impact on the Starfinder system as a whole.


Maybe Paizo can't say anything due to legal reasons, their lawyers might be on the move as we speak.


Just got a response back from ND:

I wrote:
It's been over 5 weeks since we've heard from anyone at the company. We've managed to piece together a lot of information from the Relic Knights forum, Archon's statements, and your response to the Idaho Attorney General's office, but we'd still like to hear it from the horse's mouth.
John Cadice wrote:

Give us just a bit longer -

This has been a long process. But I wont have anything to share just yet.
We are working to get information out asap


Briit wrote:

I was waiting for the miniatures before I began to play Starfinder. I believe the kickstarter mentioned a May 2018 delivery. So I still have not yet played the game. Now with this failure I really feel like I have lost my taste to play it. Combined with 2E and I feel like I am just at the end of my relationship with Paizo which is a shame as I really enjoyed them for years. It makes me feel sad.

This.

At this point I have more of an incentive to try other systems then Pathfinder 2.0 and Starfinder is a dead system to me, because of the incredibly poor choices Paizo has made with the 2 most important 3rd party vendors for the system.

Its a shame because Starfinder looked like a pretty cool system.

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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Hi folks, I’ve been keeping up with this thread and I understand that you are upset regarding the Ninja Division Kickstarter. I’ve been speaking with our licensing manager and our executive team to determine what I can say so that you do not continue to feel ignored or discounted. As I am not involved in licensing, I felt it was important that I not comment here before I understood relevant information. I realize this approach has made it appear to many of you that no one at Paizo was listening or pay attention to the issues raised in this thread and I am sorry for not letting you know earlier that I was pursuing this internally.

Paizo has not made additional posts or comments since Glenn’s post on Nov 9th because we did not have more information to provide and that is still the case. Paizo remains in communication with Ninja Division and we continue to encourage them to communicate with Starfinder kickstarter backers as soon as possible.

Should we receive additional information regarding the Starfinder miniatures kickstarter that we are able to share, we will post it in this thread so that all interested persons can review the information and keep up-to-date on any developments.

This thread is open for folks to leave feedback, but it does still need to follow our community guidelines. Questions about the Kickstarter should be directed to Ninja Division (info <at> ninjadivision.com).

~sara marie

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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I will continue to follow this thread and check in regardless of whether or not we have updates.


Sara Marie wrote:
I will continue to follow this thread and check in regardless of whether or not we have updates.

Thank you! That means a lot to me. Just knowing someone is looking into it, and feeling heard, feels much better than the alternative :P


A huge thank you, and a quiet shameful im sorry. I did miss glenn's post until pointed at by Rysky (thanks for that). I love Paizo-as a small business owner who struggles to keep a game store open far from civilation the loss of the money is a pretty big deal but more importantly representation by the company ive backed with blood, sweat, and tears (literally) means the most. I know Paizo may have been duped by the amazing early skulps the same as the rest of us, I just want to know they are still in our corner (as they have always been). Again sorry GM Dave


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Sara Marie wrote:

Hi folks, I’ve been keeping up with this thread and I understand that you are upset regarding the Ninja Division Kickstarter. I’ve been speaking with our licensing manager and our executive team to determine what I can say so that you do not continue to feel ignored or discounted. As I am not involved in licensing, I felt it was important that I not comment here before I understood relevant information. I realize this approach has made it appear to many of you that no one at Paizo was listening or pay attention to the issues raised in this thread and I am sorry for not letting you know earlier that I was pursuing this internally.

Paizo has not made additional posts or comments since Glenn’s post on Nov 9th because we did not have more information to provide and that is still the case. Paizo remains in communication with Ninja Division and we continue to encourage them to communicate with Starfinder kickstarter backers as soon as possible.

Should we receive additional information regarding the Starfinder miniatures kickstarter that we are able to share, we will post it in this thread so that all interested persons can review the information and keep up-to-date on any developments.

This thread is open for folks to leave feedback, but it does still need to follow our community guidelines. Questions about the Kickstarter should be directed to Ninja Division (info <at> ninjadivision.com).

~sara marie

Hi Sara

Thanks for dropping in, I really appreciate Paizo listening even if it isn't going to make a lot of difference to the outcome. I don't know if this is an appropriate comment or not, so please feel free to delete it without explanation if so (I'll flag it, just in case):

One of the things I've asked Ninja Division to do is to make clear statements about timelines, even if they are way, way in the future and well outside the original goal. They have a habit of saying things like: "We're diligently continuing with wave one!" or "Shipping is continuing apace! Here's some photos!" but comments like that really don't mean anything. (Same with "updates" about what they're about to do - given their failures to meet previous undertakings, what matters to backers is what has actually happened).

If it were possible for Paizo to also push them into revising their style of communication, I think it would be very helpful. Continuing to reference the "Waves" structure they had envisioned at the beginning is clearly a lost cause - they've missed all of their previously set deadlines and just pretending that things are continuing as planned is part of why I am very frustrated as a fan.

For my part, at least, I would much rather they be honest and open about where they're at and say something like:

"We're seeking funding in 2019 and will likely not resume shipping until early in 2020 - we estimate that's going to take eighteen months and we'll break it into six stages of three months each."

Followed by fortnightly updates during each stage along the lines of:

"Stage One: we've shipped 20/892 domestic orders and 3/190 international ones" (or whatever)

I have little hope Ninja Division will remain in business for much longer, however if this project is going to continue at all, I think that sort of timeline is a much more feasible one, but my main gripe is that they continue to refer to things as initially planned (wave one has barely begun, for example yet is supposed to have long since concluded). They also delay updates "until they have information" but then post plans rather than status updates of where they are.

I appreciate the kickstarter/email is the correct avenue for raising this sort of thing with them and I have tried that (with no reply). I think it would carry more weight from you (presuming it's feedback you agree with).


We knew you've been following this thread based on the deletions when people say things you consider out of line :-p

In regards to Paizo's effort on backers behalf, I suspect most would prefer you were encouraging ND to finish the kickstarter more so then encouraging them to communicate better with backers on how badly hosed there getting :-p

I think what most would like, and I understand this isn't information you are privy to at the moment, is what is Paizo doing and what can Paizo do on behalf of backers to get them the minis, beside asking them to communicate better?

Right now I believe the impression is you can and are doing nothing.

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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Just to be clear, only 3 posts in this thread have been removed. One because it called a Paizo employee a blatant liar and two because it involved advocating intentionally mucking around with another website. I'm fairly sure your :p means you knew that already, but I wanted to make that clear for anyone else reading this thread, whether or not we like a post is not a factor in our moderation.

Summersnow wrote:
I suspect most would prefer you were encouraging ND to finish the kickstarter more so then encouraging them to communicate better...

We are doing both.

Summersnow wrote:

I think what most would like, and I understand this isn't information you are privy to at the moment, is what is Paizo doing and what can Paizo do on behalf of backers to get them the minis, beside asking them to communicate better?

Right now I believe the impression is you can and are doing nothing.

I understand why the impression is that way and I understand why Paizo doesn't have any new information to give at this point. Knowing I'm paying attention to this may or may not ease the hurt for some folks, but for those that it might help, I'm here.

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