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I wonder what ND's responses are when Paizo encourages them to communicate to their backers.
Does ND say they will or do they flat out tell Paizo that they have nothing to say.
I think its a pretty big assumption that ND is even responding to Paizo.
What could Paizo do to them?
Pull the license?
Then ND has an excuse to bail on the KS and stop trying to produce anything.
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I do think that Paizo has the responsibility to explain to some extent how they are selling the miniatures yet the Kickstarter backers are left in the cold. I understand this may be the best way for the Kickstarter to get funded, and there was certainly a different contract for Ninja Division (oh, how the name is so fitting) to deliver product to Paizo than the agreement around the Kickstarter, and blah blah blah--but Paizo's name is ALL OVER the Kickstarter page. Paizo has skin in this game. And Paizo hasn't spoken to this at all.
Maybe instead of allowing their name to be linked to the Kickstarter in such a prominent way, they should have done their due diligence on this company. Clearly, they didn't.
To me, the answer's simple: no Kickstarter fulfillment, no more Paizo purchases.
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I could be wrong but I believe that Paizo has on more than one occasion indicated they are in talks with ND and have encouraged ND to communicate to their backers.
Yes, Paizo has said that. But since there has still been zero communication from Ninja Division, this statement is essentially worthless. I'm still waiting for something of value to be said.
I like how they took over $450,000, delivered next to nothing, and all the community is getting back is vague statements. This is not a good image, contractual obligations be damned.
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I like how they took over $450,000, delivered next to nothing, and all the community is getting back is vague statements. This is not a good image, contractual obligations be damned.
Yes.
But try to keep in mind Paizo is undoubtedly incredibly aware of how bad of an image this is and is doing everything they can to resolve it.
The unfortunate fact is there may not be a whole lot they can do.
Oh, there's plenty they can do. It's just all of those actions would breach a contract we've not seen and cost Paizo more money than it would earn them good will.
Oh, there's plenty they can do. It's just all of those actions would breach a contract we've not seen and cost Paizo more money than it would earn them good will.
What exactly do you think they could do? It seems to be trying to get blood from an orange at this point.
Is there anything in the contract that prevents Paizo from releasing a copy of it?
Oh, there's plenty they can do. It's just all of those actions would breach a contract we've not seen and cost Paizo more money than it would earn them good will.
The problem is it could very well cost Paizo more money then they have available to fix this problem.
I strongly doubt they keep a cool half mil sitting unused in a bank somewhere they could throw at the problem with 0 expected return on the investment.
That's even assuming the could find a 4th manufacturer (2 turned them down, ND is third) that would be willing to take up the line.
Oh, there's plenty they can do. It's just all of those actions would breach a contract we've not seen and cost Paizo more money than it would earn them good will.What exactly do you think they could do? It seems to be trying to get blood from an orange at this point.
They can do a lot of things. They could give a proportional amount of store credit, they could be transparent about what lies Ninja Division told them, they could force Ninja Division to actually talk to the people that've paid their bills (you need results for the label of investor or customer to be appropriate).
Most of those things just risk incurring the wrath of a Ponzi racket who might be able to bluff their way into legal representation.
Considering Ninja Division aren't collectively competent enough to successfully log in to a website given 3 months time I find it unlikely, but they might manage to blunder their way into a lawyer.
...they could force Ninja Division to actually talk to the people that've paid their bills...How?
Force them into a game of Survivor?
Looking into how much detail I can go into about store operations regarding the question about minis available for sale.Just popping in to let you know this is still pending and has not been forgotten.
Have a good weekend!
Thank you.
Force them into a game of Survivor?...they could force Ninja Division to actually talk to the people that've paid their bills...How?
They could take the CEO/OWNER of companies of the major failed Kickstarter projects and as long as the one voted off each week ended up with a nice lengthy jail term I'd watch it :-)
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They could take the CEO/OWNER of companies of the major failed Kickstarter projects and as long as the one voted off each week ended up with a nice lengthy jail term I'd watch it :-)Force them into a game of Survivor?...they could force Ninja Division to actually talk to the people that've paid their bills...How?
Shark tank, literal edition
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But do they have frickin' lasers beams attached to their heads?
It's been 3 months since ND communicated with us. How's that 'encouraging' going?
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Actually, it is more like 4 months. And I bet Paizo would say it's going 'great'. Oh wait, Paizo isn't communicating either. At least not in any meaningful way. Posting that you have nothing to say doesn't count.
Sorry, I really hate to post anything negative, but this whole thing is pissing me off more and more the longer it goes on. And it certainly feels like neither Ninja Division nor Paizo gives a damn.
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There needs to be an official statement from Paizo regarding this issue. Occasional comments in this thread, while better then nothing, aren't enough. If Ninja Division won't communicate, then Paizo needs to step up and do so. Whether Paizo recognizes it or not, they put their reputation on the line when signing with Ninja Division.
Personally I've stopped all Starfinder spending. I'll be completely done with Paizo until the Starfinder KS is resolved in a satisfactory way.
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Or, it could be that Paizo is very cognizant that anything that comes from a Paizo employee and is posted on this board could be actionable in court. I know everyone wants transparency here, but all it takes is for someone to pop in here and say "Ninja Division did XYZ," and then they could have a lawsuit on their hands from ND.
Plus, it looks bad for other people they could do business with in the future. If they set the example with this by airing ND's dirty laundry, then other companies might look at that and decide against partnering with Paizo. That's bad as well.
I get that everyone's super upset with how this has turned out. I suspect that Paizo is as well. They're just far more limited in what they can say than you or I.
Or, it could be that Paizo is very cognizant that anything that comes from a Paizo employee and is posted on this board could be actionable in court. I know everyone wants transparency here, but all it takes is for someone to pop in here and say "Ninja Division did XYZ," and then they could have a lawsuit on their hands from ND.
Plus, it looks bad for other people they could do business with in the future. If they set the example with this by airing ND's dirty laundry, then other companies might look at that and decide against partnering with Paizo. That's bad as well.
I get that everyone's super upset with how this has turned out. I suspect that Paizo is as well. They're just far more limited in what they can say than you or I.
I don't think ND is competent enough to even find a lawyer on their own.
I understand this may be the best way for the Kickstarter to get funded, ...
The kickstarter IS funded with almost half a million dollars, ND just stole the money to finance other things, while pretending that the money went to Paizo.
I don't think ND is competent enough to even find a lawyer on their own.
... or pay him ;)
Also: Some people filed a complain at the Better Business Bureau (whatever that is exactly). According to a comment on kickstarter, they answered the following:
This message is in regard to your complaint submitted on 12/31/2018 against Ninja Division Publishing LLC. Your complaint was assigned ID xxxxxxx.
BBB is a non-profit, non-governmental organization which promotes business self-regulation. Although BBB encourages a company to respond to a complaint we bring to its attention, we can not require it to do so.
BBB contacted the above referenced company on multiple occasions regarding your complaint. To date, we have not received a reply; therefore, BBB is obligated to close your complaint as a "no response," which will be reported to the public for the next three years.
If the company responded to you directly due to BBB intervention, we ask that you notify us immediately so we may record an accurate disposition of your case. In the event your complaint remains unaddressed, we suggest you consider writing to the State Attorney General's Office or the Department of Consumer Protection, We also suggest you consider pursuing legal means.
BBB regrets that we were unable to assist you further and wishes you the best in your future efforts in resolving this matter.
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Posting that you have nothing to say doesn't count.
Ah, I guess Sara Marie can go back to useful things her workload requires then rather than responding in with updates after being badgered about it constantly.
But: Couldn't Paizo somehow obtain documentation from backers of their investment,Possibly? Might be legal issues there.
and somehow sell them products from their line that they DO have in stock at COST until the discount=pledge+backerkit?That assumes they have enough minis to cover this, and Paizo has prepainted while the KS was for the unpainted if I recall correctly.
No one gets a delightful result, but this has the added benefit that should this go to court, Paizo could attempt to recover the lost margins.
ND has no money, so there's nothing to recover.
Quick one: Part of the "not delightful" bit is the products might not be minis, and might not even be SF items
ND may have assets.
Of which are probably not actually useful to Paizo. Plans/sculpts to other games is the only thing that immediately comes to mind.
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Ah, I guess Sara Marie can go back to useful things her workload requires then rather than responding in with updates after being badgered about it constantly.
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Sara Marie means well and it's better than nothing, but her posts are essentially lip service. I see little difference between her posts and the handful of posts from Scott from Ninja Division on the Kickstarter page before he left. The posts are a transparent attempt to placate the masses with false hope and zero information. I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees this. An official statement from Paizo with substantial information is long overdue.
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Ah, I guess Sara Marie can go back to useful things her workload requires then rather than responding in with updates after being badgered about it constantly.Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Sara Marie means well and it's better than nothing, but her posts are essentially lip service. I see little difference between her posts and the handful of posts from Scott from Ninja Division on the Kickstarter page before he left. The posts are a transparent attempt to placate the masses with false hope and zero information. I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees this. An official statement from Paizo with substantial information is long overdue.
Sara Marie's posts are the result of previous requests from backers, myself included, for SOME contact, even if its nothing more then "we are working on it but can't say anything" to at least let backers know they haven't been forgotten or ignored.
I realize everyone would like this wrapped up and resolved with the snap of a finger, like things are in a tv show, but that's not going to happen.
You have a license holder who's 3rd part licensee is broke and can't finish a project and who has closed off all communication with backers.
This means lawyers and the courts will be involved which most likely means a MINIMUM of 6 months to a year before a resolution, most likely one unsatisfactory to backers.
If Paizo can somehow spend a month or two of "sorry, we're working on it but can't say anything" and negotiate a resolution without the courts it will most likely be far better then what backers can expect from the court.
This is also why, if KS is never going to require it, big companies should be required to secure some form of underwriting/insurance that fires upon failure to make backers whole.
Kickstarter should carry the insurance as part of the % they take from creators to cover EVERY project, not just big companies.
I think if each individual kickstarter creator had to carry it many of them wouldn't be able to get it and backers would lose out on a lot of great, but small, kickstarters.
I think in US law, companies that sell products for about half a million dollar and then don't deliver anything, can be hold liable and sued for that. The kickstarter page lists ND and Paizo as the responsible companies till today. We the customers ask them if they intend to fullfill the contract, otherwise we are free to sue them. That's what the Better Business Bureau suggests. Customers are not helpless victims in US law, even if the liable companies refuse to communicate.
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I think in US law, companies that sell products for about half a million dollarI'd want to be more precise and informed before I start throwing something like this around.
and then don't deliver anything,That's the thing, they have delivered some things. Some.
We the customers ask them if they intend to fullfill the contract, otherwise we are free to sue them.Paizo has repeatedly stated they are doing everything they can to get this right by us.
Customers are not helpless victims in US law, even if the liable companies refuse to communicate.
ND isn't but Paizo has been in constant communication with us.
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The Kickstarter backers and GameOnTabletop late pledges are not customers of Paizo nor Ninja Division. We freely gave our money, not for a product, but to assist a company in developing a product. That is the fundamental basis of Kickstarter.
So our relationship to ND is not one of customer-retailer, but rather closer to patron-artist. As far as the failed Kickstarter goes, Paizo slapped their name all over it but they have no legal obligation or business connection to us at all. It's simply marketing.
So because an artist failed in their artistic endeavor, that makes them liable to suit from those that patronized them? That seems an unfair precedent to set.
We knew upfront that this money was effectively lost the moment we spent it. There's a whole section of every Kickstarter description devoted to potential risks, so we can't say we weren't aware what we signed up for.
And again, there is no contractual obligation for ND to provide us a product. Now, if it came out that they defrauded everyone with 0 intention of delivering anything, just to take the money and run, then maybe we'd be able to go after them in court. But that's a really high bar to clear. And the fact that some people did receive miniatures (however few) shows they at least attempted to do what they said they would. They just failed.
Does it suck? Yes. Do I wish someone else would have taken the license and made SF minis? Absolutely. But to keep blaming Paizo or demanding some recompense for mistakes we made is pointless. I know I'll take a hard pass on anything associated with Ninja Division or the people who work(ed) there in the future. Lesson learned. Let's move on. I've got Infinity miniatures to paint!
Edit: I really appreciate that Sara Marie and Paizo in general are not giving up on this and continuing to work behind the scenes. But I'm honestly treating anything we might get in the future as a surprise bonus. ND failed us and trying to punish them now is pointless.
I think in US law, companies that sell products for about half a million dollar and then don't deliver anything, can be hold liable and sued for that. The kickstarter page lists ND and Paizo as the responsible companies till today. We the customers ask them if they intend to fullfill the contract, otherwise we are free to sue them. That's what the Better Business Bureau suggests. Customers are not helpless victims in US law, even if the liable companies refuse to communicate.
Kickstarters entire schtick is that you're not buying a product, or even pre purchasing a product, you're investing in a venture that may or may not succeed.
That makes when you can get a refund murky. At one end of the spectrum if a meteorite strikes the warehouse full of your merch you're legitimately SOL. At the other end of the spectrum I don't think the kickstarter guy can just decide that the best way to do the project is from their new mansion in tahiti as that amounts to theft. Anything short of that and I don't think it's clear what the legal solution is. Most of the money went to a warehouse and staff which are arguably both necessary for the completion of the kickstarter
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The Kickstarter backers and GameOnTabletop late pledges are not customers of Paizo nor Ninja Division. We freely gave our money, not for a product, but to assist a company in developing a product. That is the fundamental basis of Kickstarter.
So our relationship to ND is not one of customer-retailer, but rather closer to patron-artist. As far as the failed Kickstarter goes, Paizo slapped their name all over it but they have no legal obligation or business connection to us at all. It's simply marketing.
By entering into a licensing agreement with ND and by allowing the use of Paizo's name, Paizo absolutely has skin in this game. It may not be in the narrowest legal sense (which is probably moot, since ND is broke), but to think Paizo has no responsibility here is an overly academic position.
So because an artist failed in their artistic endeavor, that makes them liable to suit from those that patronized them? That seems an unfair precedent to set.
You are making an illogical leap here. You went from saying in the binary designation of "customer-retailer [relationship]" or "patron-artist [relationship]" (the binary designation is debatable, but let's go with it), our relationship to ND is more of a patron to an artist--to that holding an "artist" liable would be an unfair precedent to set. First, if you contracted with an artist for some sum of money to be exchanged for a fairly specific work of art--and the details of that art, as well as mockup, were well documented before the exchange of money--and all that artist produced is a very small part of that work of art, you would have legal standing. That doesn't mean it's prudent to sue, but "doing art" doesn't absolve responsibility of the artist.
Furthermore, ND is not an artist. Backers did not ask them to produce something of some indeterminate or nebulous quality. ND said they would create a very tangible, understandable, generally ordinary product (albeit for a particular piece of intellectual property). Outside of the specific look of Starfinder, we all understand what minatures are, generally how they're made, and we knew exactly how many ND said they would produce--and which ones--based on the money provided. That they asked for money up front to deliver a very explicit, specific product implies an unwritten contractual obligation to the people who provided money. That the commercial transaction did not occur in a more traditional medium does not make it less of a commercial transaction.
We knew upfront that this money was effectively lost the moment we spent it. There's a whole section of every Kickstarter description devoted to potential risks, so we can't say we weren't aware what we signed up for.
This is a pretty acrobatic apology. Yes, we all know there's risk when we engage in a Kickstarter. However, folks that funded it DID expect it was likely they would get a product. To suggest otherwise is silly. Moreover, that Paizo's name was allowed to be used all over this Kickstarter provided additional "reasonable assurance" that the Kickstarter would at least largely be fulfilled. Therein lies the skin in the game.
And again, there is no contractual obligation for ND to provide us a product. Now, if it came out that they defrauded everyone with 0 intention of delivering anything, just to take the money and run, then maybe we'd be able to go after them in court. But that's a really high bar to clear. And the fact that some people did receive miniatures (however few) shows they at least attempted to do what they said they would. They just failed.
The absence of a written contract does not mean there is no contractual obligation, just like the presence of a written contract does not mean that the written contract is full-proof. Again, you're posing a very binary view of things (complete, outright fraud v. earnest but failed management of a project), which is particularly problematic since it's likely neither one of those options encapsulates ND's intentions. Producing a fraction of the product promised does not mean ND earnestly tried to fulfill their obligations as presented in the Kickstarter campaign. I, as many others think, suspect ND was raising funds to pay off moneys owed to others, hoping they would catch lightning in a bottle and make themselves and everyone whole. Those don't equate to earnest intentions of fully fulfilling the Kickstarter campaign.
Does it suck? Yes. Do I wish someone else would have taken the license and made SF minis? Absolutely. But to keep blaming Paizo or demanding some recompense for mistakes we made is pointless. I know I'll take a hard pass on anything associated with Ninja Division or the people who work(ed) there in the future. Lesson learned. Let's move on. I've got Infinity miniatures to paint!
Edit: I really appreciate that Sara Marie and Paizo in general are not giving up on this and continuing to work behind the scenes. But I'm honestly treating anything we might get in the future as a surprise bonus. ND failed us and trying to punish them now is pointless.
Suggesting that Paizo is either "completely" or "not at all" responsible is disingenuous. I don't think any of the critics are saying they're completely responsible; we are saying that Paizo has skin in this game, and they know it. Even if no legal action occurs--and I expect no legal action to occur--this is a bad look for Paizo given that they (1) engaged in a license with what is in their business a known bad operator, (2) allowed free and generous use of their name in the solicitation of funds, (3) are profiting from the same product, albeit through a different legal mechanism, by selling the exact, same minis on their website (no one can convince me that the funding ND acquired from Kickstarter and any funding ND acquired from Paizo for developing those same minis can be properly segregated), and (4) didn't address this issue publicly until there was a robust and protracted outcry from customers.
Fully absolve all you want. Many won't, and they are justified in doing so.