Silas Stadatilas's page

Organized Play Member. 70 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Organized Play character.


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Glenn Elliott wrote:
Burro-crat wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:

Back to the topic at hand...

While I am unable to be more specific, we received an update this week that has made me more optimistic than I have been in quite some time that the light at the end of the tunnel will be coming into view for everyone soon.

If you had to guess, would you say within a month? Within a quarter?

We're really unable to say, both for legal reasons as Vic already mentioned, and because it's an unpredictable process.

When we say that we're doing everything we can to support Ninja Division and encourage them to fulfill their obligations to their Kickstarter backers, we do actually mean it. We just can't talk about it.

I gave you some time for peace and stayed out of this for a while, but I really have to ask, when you say you are doing "everything we can to support Ninja Division and encourage them to fulfill their obligation to their kickstarter backers, we do actually mean it."

What are you actually saying?

Seriously, in plain explain it to me like I'm five, what does that mean? Because, under the normal definition, word everything is all encompassing. Have you provided funds to Ninja Division to assist them in providing the product promised in the Paizo/Ninja Division Starfinder Masterclass Kickstarter? Have you filed a lawsuit against Ninja Division? Are you picketing their offices? (If they still have one.) If no, then you haven't done everything. So, am I wrong, or are we in agreement that your doing less than everything and you should have said, we are making efforts to encourage Ninja Division? What does everything mean in the context you are using it? What does 'doing everything' mean to you in this context?

Next, is there a Non-Disclosure Agreement or not? When your Chief Technical Officer says that they cannot talk in the "legally bound sense", I've asked repeatedly in this thread, assuming there is an NDA, has your company made any attempt to modify that agreement?

I've asked that question before and received no answer in what continues to be, in my perception, a pattern that Paizo will not answer any substantive question posed here, and will only give a reassuring platitude if pressed enough. To date, those platitudes have yet to yield any tangible results or any commitments of any time frame in which results could be expected.

As time passes, there is no change. Backers are still out their funds, Ninja Division and Paizo have gotten their funds. (You all refuse to answer if you have received the royalty from Ninja Division, but Ninja Division has stated that they provided a royalty in one of their updates that we've estimated that has provided Paizo with approximately 40k. Now would be a great time stated that you didn't receive any funds for this Kickstarter if you actually didn't. Again, salient question, that most likely will not be answered. Go ahead, give a direct and straight forward answer to this, surprise me.)

We are now more than two years out from the estimated delivery date for this Kickstarter.

Ninja Division hasn't provided an update on the Kickstarter page in over a month.

So, I have to ask, and this is the most important question here, what is Paizo willing to do to make it right for the backers of this Kickstarter as Ninja Division has surpassed the two year mark for failure and no one is willing or able to provide any detailed information to show that there will any fulfillment in the near future, or even ever?

(I gave you a break leading up to Paizo Con and a chance to have purported efforts bear fruit, as there has been no tangible results, I'm back.)

I am not a spokes person, I speak only for me. Never claimed to be their spokes person. Just one person asking questions.

EDIT: Rest of post deleted because it just didn't add to the discussion.

Also, I hope you don't mind if I add to your question, wouldn't the small arm weapon attack still provoke an attack of opportunity because of the use of the small arm in melee?

The only benefit seems to be a double attack as a standard action rather than a full, saving you a move and a swift, but it still provokes an attack of opportunity if done in melee range and not using WatersLethe's nice work around.

Seems a bit underpowered to me. . .

kadance wrote:
So, is everyone from the locked thread coming over here now?

Please don't.

Supposedly, from another message, the other Kickstarter Thread will be reopened after Paizo Con when they have more time. I've asked in the General Discussion thread how to get messages to the Execs and Officers and I've followed their advice on how to send a message that will get a response. If you would like, I'll PM you any response I get.

If you want to send a message or complaint yourself, that thread has directions.

While I am all for keeping pressure up on Paizo for their receipt and retention of a significant amount of funds from this Kickstarter, doing the same thread under a new name when Customer Service is telling you they can't handle it with their current workload and because officers and execs won't talk to them just doesn't seem fair at the moment.

Take Care and let me know if you want me to PM you that information.

Anguish wrote:
Asking louder and more frequently won't help.

Silence does not help either. As stated above, I've sent my e-mail and we'll see what, if anything, they do. I've been told that is the proper method if I want to try and accomplish anything.

If you want to discuss the other issues contained in your post, I can reply in PM.

captain yesterday wrote:

Yeah, I flagged that. You can't suggest or advocate violence against others, hypothetical or otherwise.

I used to work at a thrift store and was threatened to get beaten up because I wouldn't haggle over a coffee cup.

I WAS sympathetic, but not anymore.

Huh, I guess I was not clear, I did not suggest or advocate for violence, to clarify, there is a tendency for customer service to be put in front of a company to take the brunt of customer complaints and anguish while shielding those who are actually taking the actions or creating the policy. That is what I was taking issue with, is that clearer?

TomParker wrote:
Silas Stadatilas wrote:
The lack of communication with their own Customer Service is just strange and short sighted.
Sharing that information with Customer Service puts that team in a terrible position. They can then say they know, but can't tell you. Or they can lie and say they don't know. I'd never put one of my teams in that position.

Not sharing information with Customer Service, especially basic information, places Customer Service as a target for beatings instead of accomplishing anything. It would have been more honest and more transparent if the Customer service reps would have been instructed to say months ago that Paizo will not answer any questions about what occurred and their role in the failure rather than give the impression at least some questions would be answered. Selectively stating that some questions will not be answered in a thread gives the impression others will.

I would imagine you wouldn't put one of your team's in the situation I described and I would also imagine that if you told your customer service agents that an officer of your company is working on a statement, and let them post that publicly, that statement would not take more than two months to appear.

I'm not ready to make that final decision yet and, frankly, I've already sent the email Steve suggested. I figure I'll take advice here and see how it goes. It's a while before AA3 comes out anyways.

I appreciate your speculation and I have a good deal of knowledge and background in that area. I have suggested ways to deal with a non-disclosure agreement, but Customer Service says they don't know if one exists or not because they can't get their questions answered. The lack of communication with their own Customer Service is just strange and short sighted. Plus, Lawyers don't always recommend silence and silence is not always due to the suggestion of lawyers.

Personally, I am tired of speculating, and I don't like presuming.

I would like the statement that we were told is forthcoming and an answer to a yes or no question, so I asked. I'll either get an answer or silence. It's my time to waste, and I have the belief that continuing to ask questions has a much better chance of a positive resolution for backers than just going away in silence. Could be wrong, heck they may delete my account and all my posts tomorrow. They have the power here, I'm just one person asking questions.

Plus, there is something to be said that if you do something inappropriate someone may call you out on it instead of just going away or ignoring it.

Thanks for taking the time to post, I appreciate it.

Take care

captain yesterday wrote:

One thing I know from living in Seattle is they're deliberate and put more thought and introspection into decisions.

But, once a decision is made, they're swift to implement it.

For example, when we first moved there we applied for jobs EVERYWHERE, didn't hear a thing for weeks, and if you asked about it they'd get super annoyed, but three weeks later you'd get a ton of calls.

So, don't worry if it takes awhile, life operates more casually there, you're not forgotten.

Thanks for that, in my work you can't wait to deal with problems or they get can get far worse. For me and in my perspective the amount of time this has been festering seems to have gone from deliberate introspection to avoidance of something that is messy and uncomfortable to deal with.

I'm about to do the email Steve suggested. Would you like for me to pm any response I receive?

Steve Geddes wrote:

They may delete it - don’t take it as disrespect to say there isn’t a lot of new information here, so leaving it up may not be viewed as helpful.

The reason I expect we’ll see a reopened thread to discuss the minis down the track is that I’ve seen many controversies over the years at Paizo (this one wouldn’t even make the top five, really). I’ve always found their processes fair - I’ve received lengthy and thorough replies (privately) when I’ve raised concerns and they always strive to be transparent and open to criticism/feedback.

Nonetheless, they have a preferred way of dealing with things and it has to be scalable - they definitely don’t want to set a precedent where if one is unhappy with a staff member’s decisions then the done thing is to go onto the message boards and thrash it out in public.

Of course, we’re all going to disagree with Paizo’s stance from time to time, but I find it useful to remember that they are running a business and hosting an online community. That brings obligations (perceived or otherwise) and a perspective that doesn’t always line up with what we as individuals are looking for.

It kinda scares me to ask, but can you PM me your top five? Just for my own curiosity, I'm not looking for new causes but I think this one is pretty bad on a behaviour level.

Have they told you anything on this? I know your out a sizable amount from this.

Don't worry about offending me, I appreciate you input and perspective.

Edit added the word 'worry'

Steve Geddes wrote:

I just figured you’d like to know. It’s quite likely this thread will be locked too (whereas you’ll get an answer via

I’d expect that if you want to “go up the chain” then following their preferred process for complaints is a far better avenue than a messageboard post.

All I can do is try. I'll give it a shot and send you a PM with any results.

I guess I like tilting at windmills.

I would find a certain amount of humor if they lock a thread asking how to contact executives about grievances. Judging from recent conduct I wouldn't be shocked if they decided to delete it instead.

Steve Geddes wrote:
Silas Stadatilas wrote:
I want to know why that post was deleted.
For what it’s worth, Paizo’s preferred process for discussing/challenging deletions of posts is to email

They often lock threads bringing up previously deleted posts (as 9 times out of 10 doing so results in the same issues coming up again).

I've tried contacting Sara Marie directly but to no avail, hence this thread as it is the actions of the Customer service manager that I'm taking issue with, I would like to go up th he chain. This is not a standard challenge. Frankly I am very disappointed with the Customer service manager.

Everything I'm questioning is in multiple posts that haven't been deleted, the only one that I'm questioning removal of was not in any way related to the reason given for the closing. Frankly that post, violation of FTC rules by Ninja Division, was more of a PSA than something that would spark debate or derision. It should not have been deleted. Plus that post is only Ninja Divisions liability, not Paizo.

Notice too, I've only gone into detail as it has been suggested that I don't have a reason to contact Paizo.

Frankly, I am no where near as optimistic as you are that the thread will be reopened and, as the saying goes, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

As you did not back the Kickstarter due to what you saw with ninja division/soda pop miniatures poor track record, when that was brought up in the forums the Paizo CCO/Publisher and COO both gave endorsements that Ninja could deliver. See the first couple of pages of the closed ninja division thread. So folks have stated that they only pledged because of those endorsements. As it would appear, based on a ninja division update that they were paying a percentage royalty, the more pledges the more money Paolo makes.

Plus that give some issues for Negligent Referral. I'm not going to get into that in any detail here.

I think three months ago now we were told in the thread that the CCO/Publisher was going to make a statement. I want to read that statement.

Finally, in closing the thread for aggressive behavior by others, they choose to delete a post I did detailing a Federal Trade Commission Regulation I believe Ninja Division is in violation of. The post included how to make a complaint. I would hope Paizo is more angry with ninja division than I am and I would hope that they take the stance that their partners should follow us federal regulations. I want to know why that post was deleted. The thread closing message was about fighting between posters. My post was in direct response to a question about what else could be done. I took that action as Paizo protecting ninja division at the expense of the backers and helping ninja division avoid liability under federal regulations. If you want I can recreate that thread here and include the CFR cite. It is the mail, internet, telephone order rule if you want to search yourself.

As each of those questions goes to Paizo's actions, I am asking Paizo. I also have one additional question, I'm not adding it here but it is easy to guess if you read the closed thread.

Edit fixed name of rule.

I'm careful with what companies I deal with. What they do to someone else they will do to me.

For example is it improper for a cis female to boycott chick fil a for their donations to anti LGBTQ groups if she is not a member of one of those groups? Why would you need to be personally injured to seek to redress a received wrong?

I hate the idea that folks are out almost half a million dollars, it looks like but can't confirm that forty thousand of that went to Paizo. The wrong doesn't need to be done to you to want that wrong to be redressed.

Plus, the removal of a post I made related to potential liability of Ninja Division pursuant to Federal Trade Commission regulations and how to make a complaint is very wrong in my opinion and I would like to discuss it. Hence my initial question for this thread.

Frankly, I hope we are both part of a solution.

CrystalSeas wrote:

I agree, being repeatedly disappointed hurts. The Kickstarter failure in particular has been a drawn-out affair.

I disagree that the Paizo (lack of) response has been because "they can't be bothered."

The launch of a game that may make or break this company (PF2) is intense, both emotionally and from a work-output standpoint. I can see why every bit of staff and executive attention has to be put into assuring its success.

If PF2 doesn't go well, there's going to be a lot more fallout than just disappointed fans. Staff will be laid off, and the company will need to, at very least, downsize drastically.

So I can understand that coping with the failures of some other company to meet expectations is not high on their priority list. The failure of Paizo would be far more disastrous.

I could agree with you if the time frame was days and maybe even weeks, but they are on to months.

I see your sentiment about the importance of 2e to this company and I agree with you to the extent that the success of 2e is going to be very important to Paizo's continued viability but I disagree with your conclusion. In my mind, the fact that 2e is coming is a reason to get this situation behind them by taking some kind of action one way or another. I think their silence in the form of any statement and their failure to give customer service the information that they need has caused this situation to fester and get worse. I agree that they probably don't want to deal with this and may see it as a distraction from their main work with 2e, but it is the distractions, when ignored, that may ultimately be what hurts a company.

Thank you for your input and I've appreciated it even though we disagree in some ways.

I appreciate your prospective, it just hurts to continue to get silence when there have been repeated assurances that Paizo's officers and Executives care over the span of months and they still can't be bothered. It's especially distressing when customer service posted over two months ago that a statement would be forthcoming.

I just hate when a company repeatedly tells you that they care but can't make you a priority. I guess that every act and activity they have undertaken for the last few months have been more important than addressing this Kickstarter.

The problem is that the main one I want a response from is the CCO/Publisher and that customer service has told us a couple of times that the Publisher is going to make a statement going back to February. I can't find an email for him on the contact us page and he hasn't replied to a private message. Is there another e-mail list that includes the Publisher? I figure he is the best to contact because he supposedly had a statement ready before the GAMA trade show.

Zeadkiel wrote:

Hello all,

I don't wanna start again the discussion about the Miniatures Kickstarter of Ninja Division I think everything has been said we will all wait to see what will happen. But the result is that we have a nice idea of game pushed out by Paizo named Starfinder and we can't find miniature right now to play with it. I'm really not a fan of the pawns and don't want to invest in other close but not official miniature that can fit.. I'm sure I'm not the only one thinking like that (especially if I check the backers number into the Ninja Division kickstarter). This kickstarter mess is creating a shadow over a great potential Starfinder game and definately don't help on his popularity.

So my question is, considering we have multiple person interested to invest in starfinder miniatures, do it's possible for Paizo to start his own line of starfinder miniatures or start a new partnership with an other miniature company to finally be able to offer something strong and official for the Starfinder players and masters ?



The only information actually give to customers by a Paizo Exec in the Kickstarter thread was that Ninja Division did not have an exclusive license. They could start a new line with a new complaint tomorrow. My concern is what the reaction will be as there is still a ton of questions outstanding to Paizo about that Kickstarter and the Executives of Paizo seem to think it is ok to leave customer service high and dry without information and to take actions that they were told would be disrespectful to their customers.

Numerous Paizo customers have been trying for months to get answers to a number of questions about Ninja Divisions failed Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures Kickstarter. We have been told by customer service that they cannot answer questions because executives will not give them answers. How can I get Paizos officers a d executives to respond to questions by customers or to give answers to their own customer services employees? We've been promised a statement from the Publisher for over two months now and nothing has been produced.

Burro-crat wrote:
thecursor wrote:

*pokes in head*

Yup, still a garbage fire. *reads it over* And now they're openly saying mean stuff to the Paizo Employees, as if they have your money in their back pocket.

They don't and you're not helping your case.

No, it's this type of trollish behavior from the apologists that doesn't help. You note that it's "still a garbage fire," but you're pouring gasoline on it.

And being mean? Silas thanked Diego Valdez. I would like to thank him, too. I think people have been generally courteous to Sara Marie, too. I appreciate her efforts as well. I don't fault the Customer Service folks; rather, I am sympathetic to them.

Heck, I think if Sabirwolf met Diego at a convention, Sabirwolf would buy Diego a beer.

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Diego Valdez wrote:

I don't have any information you don't also have. I am a ground level employee. I and my coworkers bring this thread up every day. We press our bosses about it. We are not privy to any legal information, we are not invited to any meetings with or about Ninja Division, we do not make any decisions regarding licensing nor are we consulted on them. We are not invited to executive meetings.

So, to answer your questions:

Yes. We ask about it every day. Sometimes I am more snide about it than I should be because I am frustrated. No information is given to us.

I have no idea what NDAs or legalities exist between Paizo and Ninja Division. I'm not given that kind of information.

I have no idea what Paizo may have done, is doing, or may do in the future regarding any NDAs or legalities with Ninja Division. I am not given that information.

I have inquired numerous times about whether any executive is going to make a statement. I have been told that yes, the Publisher intends to. I don't know why the Publisher has not made one yet.

Dear Mr. Valdez,

Thank you for actually taking the time to respond to my questions and share with readers of this thread your obvious frustration for what is occurring and the continuing inability to obtain the information and support you need from the Officers and Executives of Paizo to address the concerns raised in this thread. I appreciate your time, and sincerely hope you do not receive any blowback from your response.

I am saddened to learn that, despite your best efforts and those of your co-workers, that the Officers and Executives of Paizo are unwilling to take the time necessary to properly address this situation or a multitude of questions raised in this thread. Their choice to not give you and your co-workers the information and tools you need to do you job and fulfill your responsibilities is maddening to us and must be exceedingly frustrating for you.

To the extent that I have added to your frustration and difficulties, I apologize. I appreciate you giving us more detail as to the efforts and frustrations you and your co-workers are enduring related to this issue. Please understand, it is my intention to continue to press this issue as I believe that the backers of this Kickstarter are being mistreated and the Paizo bears a level of culpability for that mistreatment. (Feel free to look at my earlier posts related to Negligent Referral, the difficulties for Paizo related to how the Kickstarter was listed, and the ability to sue a Kickstarter creator. I'm not going to rehash them here.)

Frankly, I find it unconscionable for Paizo to make money on this Kickstarter when the Kickstarter failed to deliver the majority of promised goods and the majority of what was delivered was not of the quality that was promised and I believe that Paizo knew or should have known of Ninja Division's record with kickstarters and poor financial condition when embarking on this Kickstarter campaign and assuring, in this thread mind you, that the Ninja Division would be successful.

Unfortunately, it seems that the only way to get any forward momentum on this issue is continue to ask and bring up this topic until the Officers and Executives Paizo finally and fully addresses it. While I understand that this is not an easy issue that lends itself to a quick answer, this thread has been going for months. There has been more than sufficient time for a response to be formulated or to better provide you and your co-workers the tools that you need to do your jobs.

You will notice that there is a recurring theme with many of the posts of those pushing Paizo for a resolution to this matter, we have a genuine hope, belief and expectation that Paizo will do the right thing by the Kickstarter backers. We have no expectation that Paizo can deliver on what was pledged and paid for, but Paizo can certainly do something to benefit the backers of this Kickstarter. We have observed Paizo do the right thing in the past to their detriment, and that is the kind of company that we want to do business with.

Please continue to try with your employers to get them to understand that their continued inaction is only making this situation worse, and please forgive us as we continue to push Paizo to give us actual substantive replies and to do the right thing.

Thanks again and good luck!

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Silas Stadatilas wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Silas Stadatilas wrote:
Customer Service says they are here, they should be able to answer each and everyone of these questions.
Customer Service deals with us, not Ninja Division. Sara Marie only recently got to start sitting in on the meeting between them and Paizo.

My questions deal 100% with Customer Service dealing with their co-workers at Paizo. I would not expect them to work with or contact Ninja Division.

I was not aware that Sara Marie was sitting in on 'the meeting' between Ninja Division and Paizo. I certainly hope there has been more than one meeting and I look forward to Sara Marie providing a substantive update of what occurred at those meetings.

Sara Marie, how many meetings have you attended between Ninja Division and Paizo? Can you update us as to what occurred?

*dig dig dig*

Ah, my apologies. She got to sit in on one meeting.

No problem. Looking at her message of January 11th, she only sat in on a regular Paizo licensing meeting where the Kickstarter and Ninja Division was discussed not a meeting between Paizo and Ninja Division.

In the message directly below Sara Marie said: "We are in active and ongoing communication with Ninja Division." I'm curious if they are still in active and ongoing communications with Ninja Division and what progress they have made, if any, in the last three months.

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Silas Stadatilas wrote:
Customer Service says they are here, they should be able to answer each and everyone of these questions.
Customer Service deals with us, not Ninja Division. Sara Marie only recently got to start sitting in on the meeting between them and Paizo.

My questions deal 100% with Customer Service dealing with their co-workers at Paizo. I would not expect them to work with or contact Ninja Division.

I was not aware that Sara Marie was sitting in on 'the meeting' between Ninja Division and Paizo. I certainly hope there has been more than one meeting and I look forward to Sara Marie providing a substantive update of what occurred at those meetings.

Sara Marie, how many meetings have you attended between Ninja Division and Paizo? Can you update us as to what occurred?

On March 22nd:

Diego Valdez wrote:
As I mentioned in my previous post, customer service does not have the power to say anything beyond what Sara has posted. Which you just said you don't want to hear. Likewise, as I mentioned above, we have been making sure this thread stays visible to the company higher ups. Despite your assumption of 10 minutes, you have no idea how much time and energy myself or my colleagues have put into doing so.

My post immediately above this is explicitly asking you to detail what efforts Customer Service has made and is making that you allude to in the last sentence of your post above from March 22nd. As I have no idea how much time and energy you or your colleges have put into brining this matter to the company higher ups or bringing resolution, I would like for you to let us know.

Diego Valdez wrote:
Robert Gooding wrote:
And at 2 1/2 weeks since customer service’s last post in spite of direct questions and non aggressive inquiries....I think we can safely say that they’ve abandoned us as well
I’m still here. Like before, there’s nothing I can say or any information I have that you don’t.

Have you, or any other member of Customer Service, made any attempts to acquire information related to the Starfinder Masterclass Kickstarter that we do not have?

If yes, describe what attempts were made, by who, who to, when were those attempts made, and what information was gathered?

If no, why not?

Is a Non-Disclosure Agreement preventing Customer Service or Piazo from sharing information in this thread?

Has Paizo made any attempt to modify the Non-Disclosure Agreement?

Has anyone from Customer Service been able to communicate with the CCO/Publisher since GAMA ended on March 15th to determine when he would be making a statement to this thread about the Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures Kickstarter as we were told by the head of Customer Service that the CCO/Publisher was prepared to make in early March but did not want to do so when he was about to leave the office for GAMA?

If yes, what are the results of those communications?

If Customer Service has been unable to communicate with the CCO/Publisher about this statement, what is the hold up? Is it a failure of Customer Service? Is it a refusal of the CCO/Publisher to communicate or work with Customer Service?

Customer Service says they are here, they should be able to answer each and everyone of these questions.

Summersnow wrote:
Robert Gooding wrote:
This is an open call for paizo to comment on ownership of the production files and if or why they cannot release them to backers

Keep in mind from Paizo's point of view based on earlier comments they have no legal responsibility to the backers. The kickstarter was done by Ninja Division under license, not by Paizo.

They have hinted that they may take that approach, have they come out and said it in a post? Some of the apologist have but has Paizo said this is their official position?

Heck, if that is true then I would be curious to know if they think they have any obligation what so ever to backers. If Paizo takes the position that they can make money on this kickstarter and have no obligation when the kickstarter failed then I know my opinion of them as a company is going to take a massive hit.

Garretmander wrote:
This is why it's important to label your spell gems. If you don't you won't be able to tell which one you just drew from your pack! /s

That's kind of the point, it seems a little crazy that you can build magic items and disarm magical traps with the Mysticism skill but cannot identify even the most common of magic items UNLESS you can also cast detect magic on the item. Not Identify, but detect magic is required.

So, according to Ninja, Paizo owns the model files not Ninja. So, Paizo could release the files. . .

Ninja is at it again. As usual, presented without comment.

Here is a direct url to Ninja's comments on the Kickstarter:

As usual, you might want to read them in context with the other base comments.

Ninja Division wrote:

I always like Hawaiian punch.

Apr 2 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

Ya, one of the biggest selling factors was a special mold and release technique and tech they pioneered to get good quality at a decreased part count - primarily so that you guys weren't stuck putting minis together and could basically base them and use them out of the box. It was reason enough to go with them, and both companies gave a good effort to work on solutions and make great things. We worked through some early Quality concerns, and were happy with recent delivery, and have every reason to believe that the held stock now, as we have samples of most of them, is of the quality that they are known for, and will be great minis once they are on their way.

Apr 2 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

Ya... nothing destroyed yet. We are working on getting them out of hock, and we are on good grounds in our discussions while we work out a solution. There is not value in destroying these miniatures, they are a priority to recover and distribute and are valuable to both entities.

Apr 2 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

We cannot. Paizo ultimately owns the files.

Apr 2 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

@ Keith - this is not feelings, this is just how we are going to monitor these discussions. We are here communicating and trying to answer questions. We are working on securing resources to get these minis going pronto - and until i have signed production contracts, Ill keep you up to date with as much as I can. I didnt say we wouldnt take your slings and arrows, but as the folks here say - we are working to get this done, try to be constructive, because everyone who reads after these comments is either learning how to deal with frustrations poorly, or constructively. And that long tail effect might not make this immediate situation better, but might make another kickstarter project a great place to explore and communicate with creators.

Apr 2 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

lord i hope not

Apr 2 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

Working off the Archives because I don't have my hard cover CRB with me (plus easier to cut and paste)

Am I correct via rules as written with the following statement:

You are able to use the Mysticism skill to create a magic item, disarm a magical trap, or identify a spell being cast BUT you cannot identify a magic item using your mysticism skill unless you also cast a detect magic spell on the item you wish to identify.

Therefore, rules as written, my character may be able to create the item that is sitting in front of them, may have made one, can identify the spell like ability to can shoot out, and even disarm a magical trap giving that effect, but can't recognize a wand of magic missiles if it was sitting in front of them no matter what their Mysticism skill is.

I understand not wanting to remove or make detect magic undesireable, but it seems a little counter intuitive to me that you can locate a magical trap with perception and disarm it with mysticism all without the benefit of detect magic (the detect magic spell even states that there are was to ward traps against detection through use of that spell) but you can't identify a common magic item no matter how good your mysticism skill is.

Am I getting something wrong? Am I missing something?

The reason I think this:

Description of Mysticism skill: (Copied and Pasted from Archive)

Craft Magic Item
If you have enough ranks in Mysticism, you can create magic items. See page 235 for the crafting rules.

Disable Magic Device
You can use Mysticism to disable a magical trap or other magical item. This functions as the disable device task of the Engineering skill, and the DC of the check is based on the trap itself. You can’t take 20 on a Mysticism check to disable a magic device.

Identify a Spell Being Cast
If you can clearly observe a spell being cast, you can use Mysticism to identify the spell. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + 5 × the level of the spell being cast. This does not require an action. You can’t take 10 or 20 on a Mysticism check to identify a spell.

Identify Magic Item
As part of the action to cast detect magic, you can use Mysticism to identify the properties and command words of magic items. The DC of this check is equal to 15 + 1-1/2 × the item level. You can usually attempt a Mysticism check to identify a magic item only once per 24-hour period; further attempts within that period fail. However, casting an identify spell allows you to attempt a second check in the same 24-hour period and grants you a +10 insight bonus to the check. If you have the time, you can take 20 to attempt another check to identify a magic item in the same 24-hour period, but only if you can perform research, such as with access to an information network or downloaded data set.

Detect Magic
You detect all magic spells, effects, items, and objects (including those on or affecting creatures you can see), as well as hybrid items, in the area. You can’t detect magical traps in this way, as they are created with additional magic that wards them from this common spell. Each round you concentrate on the same area, you can determine if one magic source you detect is from a spell, magic item, or other effect, and the caster level (or item level) of the effect. You can’t determine if there are magic sources in areas you can’t see, or if there was a magic source in an area at one time but that has since expired.

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Ninja Division posted again, presented without comment.

You can see the posts at the kickstarter page here. You can go through the comments to read them in context if you would like.

Ninja Division wrote:

No one asked you to be silent. We kindly requested that you direct your comments to us, harassment directed at partners is just that, harassment. -Ninja John

Mar 30 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

Further insinuation that there is illegal activity here will continue to be reported as spam until removed, whether it's the comment or the backer.

Mar 29 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

@everyone - Clarity regarding pre-painted and masterclass Two different products: We sold thousands of prepainted sets into the US markets, retailers have had access to them since they launched. That is a completely separate line of business from the prospective Kickstarter resin line we are working to fulfill.

Mar 29 2019 on #48: from the project Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

@ Thank you Stephen - our previous year was one of shifting sands, and we were silent with hopes of solutions that never came - I am sorry both from Ninja and from myself. I am not giving up.

Mar 29 2019 on #48: from the project Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

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Ninja Division posted on the kickstarter page an update and comments. Copied and pasted without comment.

You can find the update here or copied and pasted below: tures/posts/2460060

NinjaDivision wrote:

Status updates - Ahoy Starfinders!

Posted by Ninja Division Publishing (Creator)



Greetings backers,

After a rocky start to the year, we are currently exploring new opportunities to move the Starfinder Miniatures Kickstarter forward. We don’t have any major announcements to make on that front, but want to give you visibility on what we’re working on:

• Financing: We are working with investment groups to find the right financial partners to fulfill our obligations and move Ninja Division forward. We have several options for moving the resin line forward and hope to be able to reveal more details as our plans finalize.
• Manufacturing: We are in discussions with other resin manufacturers to make the transition more affordable and attractive for investors.
• Logistics: We are looking into more economical shipping methods to help cut costs of fulfillment. More US based manufacturing will be a significant help on that front.
• Promotions: We are working toward releasing premium products from our other product lines to put profits towards manageable bites of outstanding Kickstarter content. These special minis and offers for fans of our other games will generate revenue and allow us to begin moving forward.

Our online absence has led to a lot of speculation and attacks on our partners in this process. Paizo entered into a contract in good faith and worked closely with us to ensure the quality and depth of the Starfinder universe was captured in miniature form by our amazing sculpting and creative team. Ninja Division licensed the rights to the miniatures; this was not a joint business operation but a license to develop minis.

We are working doggedly to return to operations and manufacturing to fulfill your pledges. We very much understand how justifiably upset the community is, and we want to ask that you do not take it out on our partners, we own this, the fault lies with Ninja Division alone, until this product is delivered. We remain dedicated to deliver these miniatures as soon as possible. Our missteps were tragic and unplanned, as we have desired from the beginning to bring you the best possible miniatures and will continue to work toward that end.

If you have questions to these or any other matters, please reach out to us at We are unfortunately responding slowly, but we are responding. Or more directly, we will be engaging again on this Kickstarter page to try and keep you guys apprised of solutions and status, even if its only that we are still working on it.


The Ninja Division Team

You can find the comments Ninja Division made to other posters here:

Or, I also copied and pasted below.

You may wish to refer to the comment they are responding to for context.

NinjaDivision wrote:

Hey guys, @Josh/Chris - understanding our license and products: The pre-painted ranges were our first license with Paizo, and we produced a short run of promotional resins for players after those designs were initiated. This was a slow process, but a start in our relationship - the Masterclass Kickstarter was a follow-on project, as the time it took to get pre-paints to market meant that you guys would be playing with a handful of prepaints - when a full range is what the product needed. We are hobbyists, and wanted that full world to be at your fingertips and not drip/drop into your hands. We had every indication that this would be successful, and for the health of our business, and for future partnerships, we wanted to work closer with Paizo, as they have the same passion for products. The snowballing effects of our situation made this perilous after the fact, we did not enter in to contracts with any foreknowledge of imminent failure or "betting". The KS, if failed, would not go forward, and it would be back to business, it was a success, and we proceeded with all haste - I make the minis with my studio around here - so I was full bore with everything, concepts, minis, sculpting, printing, approvals, engineering, you name it - During the 2+ years we had been working with Paizo to make all these products, and as we have discussed in our releases - and as our other projects were getting long in the tooth in terms of scope and cost - the snowball started, key sales and projections were not met, and a lack of those other projects' making it to market failed to raise and maintain the huge catalog of supplements revenues that we had, appropriately, been applying to our forecasts. This is how a business operates, and those flows were unceremoniously interrupted across our whole organization, and that is when we slowed to a crawl to seek investment to cover the gaps to keep things rolling. This is literally the complete story - this is where we are today, restructuring and stoking the engines to move products out. To imagine a bunch of sneaky shadow projects and not taking care of you guys to enrich ourselves, its simply not true, It is a sad day that all our troubles came to a point at once, and it affects all of our fans and followers, this is a huge challenge, but we are not giving up. For EU backers, We have been refining our fulfillment process to get you guys, and other regions served as near simultaneous as we can, all this product will be boxed and packed out from the US going forward (to current planning) and we will have a great control over things. We are spread thin - but even short staffed, when this is going, we will ship in complete waves, get them out in groups, servicing the regions that are typically the hardest/longest to get things to first, and as they are smaller amounts of orders overall, the most easy to get to 100%. US backers, will likely be its own animal to start packing when this is all going on - but Ill provide a clearer picture when we are at that stage Like I said, we are super spread thin but I will check in more regularly, and to the best of my ability Best, Ninja John

Mar 27 2019 on #48: from the project Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

Hey all, we are here and kicking - YES we were at a trade show working to secure a future for getting you these minis. We paid out of pocket to attend to business and to our obligations to move things along. Grousing here is pointless. But yes, we are here, spread super thin, and working to get things going. The update covers our current status.

Mar 26 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

Hey guys, So a couple of quick answers. @Josh We are back to a healthy discussion with Aarchon about solutions, and working to that ends to liberate the minis (paid of course) and get an assessment of status of molds etc so that if runs were short, we can pay the additional manufacturing. @Brian - you are totally right, I eat crow on this daily, and the decision was a defensive posture while we were in a super tight and fluid situation. That instability makes us liars every time we tried to update you, we are firming up that ground to be able to confidently re-engage and move this beast forward @Chris - we'll take it all, and I am here letting you know we are not dodging out and working to get this in your hands.

Mar 26 2019 on #48: from the project Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

ForeverQueen wrote:
Sorry the link didn't work, that is what I was referencing, yea.

Not a problem, I appreciate you posting it. With that information we can ask questions like: "When you saw Ninja Division at GAMA, did you drag them into the Piazo booth and make them talk?"

ForeverQueen wrote:

Not sure if anyone has posted anything in reference to this, but it appears they still have enough money to go to a gaming convention for a week in Reno, NV. e-legends/posts/2458440?fbclid=IwAR2WRfxmCglxgf5nj5HnFO314PNc_s-vqiPvijlnfH rSmJmYFGb98T0_ejE

The link didn't work for me, but I went to the comments section of Super Dungeon Explore Legends kickstarter and found this comment:

Soda Pop Miniatures wrote:

Hi guys,

Sorry for the silence,

Yes, we were at GAMA, our focus was not on spending money on product presentations, well, frankly, because without moving these KSs along, we dont have anything to promote - but it was all business and searching for partners to help us move things along.

There was progress, and steps towards formulating more attractive solutions to people investing in our success, with all eyes on making sure EVERYONE here is getting taking care of - or no deal.

GAMA, the same Gaming Industry Conference Paizo attended and we were told the Paizo CCO/Publisher attended. I wonder if Ninja Division and Paizo found any time to talk, share, and discuss this kickstarter. I wonder what was said. . . .

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Opsylum wrote:

Do we have any reason to believe there are any controversial secrets going around? I mean, apart from what’s just recently happened, Paizo’s generally had an unblemished record going back to the time they were founded - like, 17 years ago. Correct me if I’m wrong. The company may have had a few people leave since then, but more or less the same people running it then are still running it now. Over the short time I’ve been buying from them, I’ve already seen them take losses to do right by their customers several times, most significantly with the Starfinder binding issue. The idea that they’re trying to cover something up for selfish reasons just seems...really out of character. Given their stellar record of more than a decade and a half, couldn’t they get some kind of benefit of the doubt? Looking at everything that’s happened since this fiasco started, I kind of get the feeling Paizo was duped into helping a friend, and have since found themselves in over their heads in a completely unprecedented nightmare scenario, where they have no idea what to do or how to approach it, beyond trying to salvage as much from the Kickstarter for their customers as they can.

Not to diminish anyone’s completely justified grievances. This whole thing has been, just, terrible. I really hope Erik finishes his response soon so we can have Paizo’s formal position. This situation just seems really unprecedented to me, and a lot of the speculation out of character for Paizo. Any one of these people probably could have found better paying jobs in video game design (or even WotC) - and some have -but the people who are working here really strike me as people doing what they love, and doing it for the fans.

My read on this situation is that Paizo's role is more negligent than nefarious. I believe that Paizo wanted to have miniatures for this game near release, they were having difficulty finding a manufacturer that was interested and along came Ninja Division who swore that they could do it. Ninja Division had made some great minis before, they said they could do it, everyone wants them, lets do it. When folks correctly pointed out that Ninja Division had a poor record for kickstarters, we had the COO and CCO/Publisher double down on this forum and state what I think they truly believed, they thought that Ninja Division could do what they promised. I think they saw what they wanted to be true rather than looking at the writing on the wall of Ninja Divisions past and ongoing failures. In doing so, Paizo used the goodwill that it has created with its fans and created more sales by giving assurances that they thought Ninja Division could do it. Unfortunately, this lead to more people spending their funds with this kickstarter. It is my current hope and belief that that Paizo vouched for this Kickstarter out of misguided belief of Ninja Division's ability to do what they promised rather than a desire to increase Paizo's take from it's share of the kickstarter.

At this point, you cannot dispute that delivery is very overdue, that Ninja Division has announced that they are broke, and that Ninja Division has announced they are seeking an Angel Investor. We also know that in Ninja Division's announcement of a month ago, they listed that a little over 6% of the funds for this kickstarter went for licensing fees, ie. went to Paizo. In this forum, we have estimated that this equates to approximately forty thousand dollars. I have, repeatedly, asked for Paizo to confirm this, but they have ignored this request or outright refused to confirm or deny they have been paid.

This forum, in my opinion, has been extraordinarily kind considering the situation. The amount of money that many of the backers are out is not an insignificant sum and, frankly, people do not like to feel that they have been cheated or that they can no longer trust a company that they once trusted. Your earlier post talks of Paizo taking actions to the benefit of their customers to their own detriment. This time and situation should be no different. I've suggested at least twice now that Paizo use all the funds it received from this kickstarter to do something for the backers. Paizo can't create the miniatures that the backers are due, but they could do something. Forty Thousand dollars spread between less than 4 thousand people can do something nice. To me, what Paizo does with the funds it received from this kickstarter tells me a lot about what this company is and what it stands for. (If they did not receive any funds as part of this, well, they need to say it. Personally, if they weren't paid, I firmly believe that they would have told us that by now.)

Now, what about something that will cost Paizo nothing monetarily, but will matter. An apology. There is value to people to hear that someone will admit that what they did was wrong, and that they feel bad for the damage that their actions helped cause. Not having your customer service folks, but the CCO/Publisher and COO for that matter, both need to make a good, detailed and heartfelt apology for their role in this failed kickstarter. Folks on here have been practically begging for one, and they just get put off. At some point, when your told some other project is keeping folks busy, you can not help but feel hurt and that they really don't care. The repeated statements that the Executives 'care' rings hollow when there is no action. Not even an apology when its really clear that things have gone wrong here.

Its Paizo's very history that makes us expect better. The company that I think Paizo is would take every reasonable action to do something to make the situation a little more right for the backers. They may be doing something, and I hope they are, but their silence on the issue doesn't help. If Paizo is the company I think it is, it will use the proceeds that it received from this Kickstarter to do something for the backers. If Paizo takes the position that this was Ninja Division's kickstarter and they have no obligation to the backers, than Paizo is not the company that I thought it was and, I think it is fair to say, that you think it is.

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Sara Marie wrote:

A lack of executive commentary in this thread is not an indication of a lack of empathy, care, or knowledge of how people feel about this. We are all keenly aware of how Ninja Division’s Kickstarter has affected our fans as well as the Starfinder brand.

However much everyone involved with this Kickstarter wants there to be simple, straightforward solutions, even discussing details publicly is complex. I am so sorry to the community who is seeking answers right now that this is the case, but however much we'd love to be frank and open with details, this is exponentially more complicated than zipping off a forum post.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you, again. Over three weeks ago we were told that the CCO/Publisher was working on a statement that would be provided to us 'soon'. After almost two weeks had gone by from that point, I posted two hours early, I asked when I could expect a post. You replied that the CCO/Publisher wanted to hold off because of the GAMA Trade Show was over. To paraphrase, you stated that he did not want to drop a post and then disappear. GAMA ended March 15th. I asked when it would be appropriate to again bring up that we had not received a response. You told us that you would provide us an update on Monday, March 18th. You provided us an update that you could provide no concrete update.

Every time you deal with customer service now you will be told how much they care about you. They will tell you how important you are. Inevitably, after all of these reassurances, you continue to have the same problems because they tell you they care about you but they never deliver results. Please don't tell me how much Paizo's Executives care about me or the victims of this Kickstarter, because the impression that your giving is that they care very little. (Caring has levels like everything else, you can care very little or you can care about something deeply. Both are statements that you 'care', the problem is when you don't quantify how much they care and they take no actions to show how much they care.) They clearly do not care enough to take the time to post a cohesive statement on this forum.

Ah, next your going to say they can't because of the Non Disclosure Agreement (NDA). First of all, assuming one exists, can Paizo tell us with a straight face that they are concerned that Ninja Division, a company that repeatedly tells us they are broke, are really going to sue them for breach of contract? Seriously? Also, if the NDA was really something holding them back, has Paizo sought to modify it? A first year law student will tell you that parties have a duty to mitigate damages. Paizo is being damaged due to Ninja Divisions failure to provide the product it contracted to provide in this Kickstarter. It would not be difficult to enter a modification or voiding parts or all of an NDA. Hey Paizo, have you tried? If your customers and those who have been harmed by this kickstarter are so important have you even tried to modify the NDA so you can be open and transparent? Or, just throwing this out there, is the existence of an NDA a convenient excuse for not answering uncomfortable questions, such as did you vouch for a the ability of a financially insolvent company to deliver on a kickstarter so that company could raise almost a half a million dollars while your company got a little over a 6 percent cut?

A poster sugguested we post specific questions for Paizo to answer as a way to help. We have been, and many remained unanswered or unadressed. I am still waiting to hear if Paizo has indeed received the approximately forty thousand dollars from Ninja Division for the license in this Kickstarter, and if they think it is appropriate to reatin those funds considering that fulfillment has been exceedingly poor and will likely never be completed?

I've given numerous suggestions to Paizo in this thread, I want them to succeed. Unfortunately, months have gone by and the only new information has come from outside sources (a poor Ninja Division post that allowed us to extrapolate royalties to Paizo) and now we are getting rumors that the company that actually produced the minitures but was never paid for them is going to destroy the stock rather than continue to store the minitures as they continue to incur storage costs and taxes at the end of the month. If that rumor is true, there is even less of a chance for this kickstarter to ever be resolved. Information isn't coming from Paizo. Customer Service may say they are our advocates, but, like the Executives, they are showing no results. All of our information is coming from other sources. Again, Customer Service tells me that they care, but, when push comes to shove, the company matters more to Customer Service that I do, or the backers of this Kickstarter do.

So, is Paizo simply providing a forum, or does Paizo care enough to provide actual information? Does Paizo care enough about the backers to divest itself from the proceeds that it received from the kickstarter? Does Paizo care enough about the backers of this Kickstarter, people the COO and CCO/Publisher assured that Ninja Division would be successful in following through with their Kickstarter promises, to take concrete steps to make things even partially right? Does Paizo care enough to actually sit down, spend a few hours, and put together a comprehensive response and appology to the victims of this kickstarter?

Please stop telling me you care, and do something that shows me that you care.

I like this game, and in general, your products. Please stop shooting yourselves in the foot, pull off the bandaid, admit you made a mistake dealing with Ninja, use that 40k and make some kind of appology gift for the backers, and move on.

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Sara Marie wrote:
He was trying to get it posted before GAMA Trade Show, but he didn't want to drop it in the thread and then immediately be out of the office/unavailable. As Steve noted, I know he's been working on it, but I don't know when it's going to be posted.

As GAMA ends this Friday, how long do you feel it is reasonable to wait for a post before I ask again?

From Wednesday February 27, 2019, at 4:57 p.m.

Sara Marie wrote:

Erik has been wanting to post in this thread and he's been trying to formulate some thoughts. I have been hesitant to say this as I know that as soon as I say that, there will likely be expectations raised that may or may not be met and I try to be exceedingly conservative when it comes to things that might affect people's expectations. Particularly because I have not been sure if or when a post might come to fruition or what it will end up saying.

With the above in mind, I want to let you know that Erik has been working on putting some of his thoughts into words, and will post them soon. I'm not sure when he might be able to post anything. I know other execs are working with him to ensure what he says conveys the message he intends and I do not know how long that will take.

-Sara Marie

In a little less than three hours it will be two weeks since the excerpt of message above was posted.

More than two weeks is not soon.

Is Erik going to post or is this another vague promise we have to wait on?

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Ninja Division is quoting on the Kickstarter page again. Here are their comments. You can search to find them to view in context here: [URL:]

Ninja Division wrote:

Meigeall - yes indeed, we have run out of capital to advance production. But tooling of molds and revisiting design was a contributing element to delays and cost overruns in ferreting our and working with a new manufacturing process.

Mar 4 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

No scams Michael, just horridly unfortunate circumstances of our own making. We are working continuously to fix them.

Mar 4 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

This snowball was a mix of costs, timing, and failure of some key business falling through to sap our resources. We went off the rails, lined up help, and then got that horse shot out from under us before the end of last year - so we pick up and are at it again. There are tools to get this on rails, and we have secured support to help us get there. We will show you advancement as soon as I have news.

Mar 4 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

Greetings folks, We continue to work on solutions to carry the project forward. Many of you have been expressing the core of the argument and justified anger towards our massively delayed project. It is HUGELY and HORRIDLY regrettable to be in our position, not one we place any blame externally for, and take firmly on our shoulders to fix. As stated in the doc, we are ACTIVELY working on solutions with manufacturers in question, and new tools to move the ball along. Things have grown warmer and more positive, and as it is said, I am firmly in the camp of "show you" not "tell you" We will provide updates at things get more concrete, until then, though extremely spread thin, I will be dropping in to check on things here and answer what questions I can.

Mar 4 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

Greetings folks, We continue to work on solutions to carry the project forward. Thank you Mr Clark for expressing the core of the argument and justified anger towards our massively delayed project. It is HUGELY and HORRIDLY regrettable to be in our position, not one we place any blame externally for, and take firmly on our shoulders to fix. As stated in the doc, we are ACTIVELY working on solutions with manufacturers in question, and new tools to move the ball along. Things have grown warmer and more positive, and as it is said, I am firmly in the camp of "show you" not "tell you" We will provide updates at things get more concrete, until then, though extremely spread thin, I will be dropping in to check on things here and answer what questions I can.

Mar 4 2019 on #47: from the project Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

Ninja has been commenting again. Cut and pasted from Ninja Division Publishing comments page on their Kickstarter profile. You can find them in context if you search through the comments to the Kickstarter itself. tures/comments

Ninja Division Publishing wrote:

Quite simply - you start your KS with a budget in mind. The scope of what you create or convince yourself you can deliver grows during the campaign, and if there is any variance, additional carry costs, additional time beyond planning, it all draws money from that reserve, and all the while ,if there is no actual product coming to market, you begin to bleed away at the companies other incomes. Should any of your expected sales get hit, a product get delivered late, or any other reason not well received by an audience, your expected funds do not come in and now your expected revenues are not meeting your funding needs for basic operations over and above your KS funding. Long story short - if SDE (our largest KS) delivered within 6 months of our promised delivery, we would have MILLIONS in revenue on the open market starting to keep the process liquid and meeting all our needs - we have stated our delay reasons, and the host of economy, bad decisions, and product reception has put us in a snowball effect that is needfully concerning and delaying everyones work.

Feb 28 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

I am well aware that the void has created speculation, but when as an operation you lose your bearings and need to circle wagons to get your direction again, there is nothing to tell that doesnt continue to poke and inflame. We are here, and we are still working to get this done right. What is the point of a string along? Like... really? I won't speak to Archon, but I can speak to bringing our team together and realizing that we can't just sit idly by and let this void continue. Our comms are open and honest, and allowing visibility in the areas that have been asked of us, the information and progress we make in the next months will start to define our timelines for getting this stuff moving again.

Feb 28 2019 on Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

Greetings, We will continue to update as things progress, it will be slow, but nothing has stopped here. Our primary focus is on securing the removal of blocks on our production and securing the additional funding needed to move things along - Calling for us to go to jail seems... really out of sorts with a desire to see this product delivered. We are thankful for all the support and PMs from backers patiently waiting, we are very sorry for this horrid delay, and are working with all expediency to see a solution

Feb 28 2019 on #47: from the project Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures

Submitted without further comment.

Personally, I just bought some craft store small colored fluff balls and glued them to bases.

Summersnow wrote:


The big issue with ND's kickstarter is that Paizo let it be ND's kickstarter, which meant ND was paid up front and got to spend the $$$ on whatever they wanted.

I don't think any of your precautions would have helped with that.

I suspect using all of the licensee disclaimers as you suggest would have just backfired as people would have backed anyways when Paizo came out in support of ND the way they did and Paizo using that language to tell everyone its all on ND would have likely just made backers even angrier and feeling like Paizo always planned to let ND scam them and then use the language as a cop out.

The money should have gone to Paizo who would then pay Archon up front and ND getting performance based pay, they design X # of mini's and they get paid X $$$.

The fact that ND most likely wouldn't have worked under those arrangements as they wouldn't have been able to use the money to finance other projects at Paizo & the Starfinder backers expense would have been the final clue Paizo needed to realize this was really nothing more then a scam pulled on them and the backers by ND.

I agree with your comment, the difficulty is that I doubt Paizo would want to be a project manager, especially at the royalty rate they were receiving. At that level of involvement, Paizo would be better off just starting a miniatures division maybe paying Ninja Division for some sculpting and a consulting fee (hire Archon instead would have been a good suggestion).

Taking the prior COO and CCO/Publisher posts in the best possible light, I think Paizo was mislead by Ninja Division about Ninja Divisions current health and ability to produce. Too much good faith was created by the production of a small batch of Minis that were sold/exhibited at Gen Con that significant red flags were dismissed or outright ignored. I think Ninja Division told Paizo what they wanted to hear, that there could be miniatures for Starfinder, something that would make fans happy, and Paizo would make some money without much effort. I think Paizo was too trusting, especially in light of events that were occurring with Ninja Division, and only heard and saw what they wanted to hear. I do not think Paizo had the capacity to manage the project, wanted to manage the project, nor would it be economically feasible for Paizo at the royalty rate.

Everything I suggested is backwards looking at problems I perceive from this Kickstarter and how to keep them from happening again.

The third one I suggested may have helped, the review of books or required capital, some companies may not be willing to do this, but it is not unusual to have a showing of financial health before some companies will do business with others. In this case, I am curious if Ninja Division had any working capital at the time of the Kickstarter, let alone sufficient working capital to see it through for a few months. It is my guess that Ninja Division was already dead in the water at the start of this kickstarter and did not have sufficient resources to realistically perform despite the infusion of funds from this. If I am correct and Paizo would have known of Ninja Divisions lack of financial health, they probably would not have gone through with the license. (I am assuming Paizo was mislead by Ninja Division on their financial health and ability to preform as a going concern.)

This also becomes a bigger question with the issuance of a license because there is going to be a term for that license. Paizo has shown a repeated desire for miniatures to be produced for Starfinder. I would expect that they wanted production for Alien Archive II, the upcoming Alien Archive III, and more sculpts of existing races, monsters and ships. Now that Ninja Division has the license and no apparent ability to produce, there is likely to be no additional 'official' Starfinder miniatures in the near future.

I asked before but I never got an answer about the license returning to Paizo or if Ninja Division still retains it.

EDIT: Moved the last sentence so it stands alone. It is really the only question in this post and I didn't want it to get lost.

Sara Marie wrote:
Silas Stadatilas wrote:
4. I am betting Sara Marie's 2-27-19 posting was vetted before she posted it. I bet that her choice to use the phrase 'Ninja Division Kickstarter' was very intentionally used than the actual title of 'Starfinder Masterclass Kickstarter'.
Not intentional. "Ninja Division's Starfinder Masterclass Miniatures Kickstarter" gets to be a mouthful (brainful?) and I've gotten in a habit of using various shortcuts to refer to it. Internally, I often just use "the ND KS", but I attempt to type out abbreviations on the forums so I don't unintentionally create a situation where a newcomer is lost with what abbreviations mean what.

Of that entire post this is the only part you respond to?

You guys make it hard to love you some times.

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Sara Marie,

I appreciate your well written and vetted post, even though it does not provide any additional information, answer any questions, or provide any commitment on behalf of Paizo to the Backers of this kickstarter. It shows a level of continued engagement and a recognition that this kickstarter remains a continuing issue/problem that you are taking seriously.

One thing that I, personally, would like to emphasize is that I believe each person posting on this thread has a sincere desire to see Paizo and Starfinder succeed. Some are feeling justifiably hurt, but my comment remains. I think anyone that is bothering to post to this board wants this game and Paizo to succeed.

I would expect a large percentage of the backers of the Starfinder Masterclass Kickstarter would be first adopters and, for lack of a better term, superfans. Those fans are important because they are the ones that buy product rather than just using the SRD, they push sales. This is not an issue that is going to go away, or one that should be allowed to continue to fester up to Paizo Con. Selfishly, I want to see this game flourish so I can get more content to steal ideas from for the game I run.

That being said, I believe that Paizo needs to do the following: (Note, I am assuming that there is no expectation or scenario in which Ninja Division is going to provide the promised items to backers.)

1. In any future license, Paizo must insist and require as part of its license that the advertisement is clear that the entity is being licensed and this is not an offer being made by Paizo. For example, the Starfinder Masterclass Kickstarter listing(the one Sara Marie refers to as the Ninja Division Kickstarter) should have related that Ninja Division, though a License with Paizo, is pleased to offer Official Starfinder Miniatures ect. The actual campaign, to me, looked like a joint venture.

2. If your not already, insist on approval of the marketing material, especially for anything involving your logo or brand. (Look at my prior posts on how, in my opinion, the way the Starfinder Masterclass Kickstarter was marketed on the Kickstarter Page was poor for Paizo and made Paizo look like a partner in the Kickstarter rather than a licensor.)

3. If you are not already doing this, you may wish to consider viewing a potential licensee's books or require that they show proof of certain cash reserves as a condition of doing business with them to ensure they are financially healthy to follow through. Even with a license, it is your IP that is being put out there and they are selling to the same customers you are. A licensee that upsets your audience hurts you too.

4. I am betting Sara Marie's 2-27-19 posting was vetted before she posted it. I bet that her choice to use the phrase 'Ninja Division Kickstarter' was very intentionally used than the actual title of 'Starfinder Masterclass Kickstarter'. You should consider whether your COO and CCO/Publisher should be posting related to third party products or campaigns. Much of the anger that you are seeing directed at Paizo was as a result of the perceived endorsements of the Starfinder Masterclass Kickstarter by your COO and CCO/Publisher. I'm not saying stay off the boards all together, but there are threads to be involved with and there are ones that they should not be. Rules or lore threads, great, third party products, not so much.

5. With that being said, in my opinion, you are taking too long to apologize. Your position seems to be this is Ninja Divisions job to produce and deliver these minis, not our fault or obligation. If that is the case, then you should say you are sorry, that Paizo thought ND could do it because ND showed us some nice miniatures and ND made nice minis in the past and ND gave us repeated assurances that ND could do it, we thought miniatures would be a great addition for fans of the game, we really thought fans would like them, we expected and were assured by ND that the miniatures would be highest quality, we don't understand why ND has failed to complete and deliver as they promised, we are doing what we can on our end and are trying to be as creative as we can to bring out a better resolution for the backers, our fans are our priority, you are our friends and customers, we are sorry that you have been let down in this process by ND, and we are trying to do what we can on our end to have Ninja Division fulfill their obligations. Everything I typed there points back at Ninja Division but also puts you on the Backers side.

6. Paizo still should do something independently for backers whether you think you have an obligation or not. Personally, and I have no idea the cost, but consider making something, a unique product, only for the Backers. For example, a specific hard copy module for Starfinder similar to the ones you produce for free RPG day. Number them, only send them to backers, and have each one contain an apology signed by the COO and CCO/Publisher - actual signatures. Don't sell a PDF or, if you do, have the proceeds go to charity. Consider adding a certificate for a playable race or item for Starfinder Society that is unique to the backers as an encouragement to play. Years ago in my RPGA days, WoTC would occasionally send out free swag to active members, I still have/use my RPGA/Chessez battlemat and my Fist of Emirikol. These are your super fans, surprise them and make them smile.
7. For each subscriber you have lost during the campaign. Reach out to them, and offer to finish the current adventure path for them. That will be either a 3 or six module adventure path in pdf. Maybe that may help rekindle interest, may save a customer, costs you very little as it is an electronic item, and you probably would not have received that sale anyways. Track if they download it and then follow up later to try to win them back. Consider sending the hard copy too.
8. Keep trying with Archon . . .

Feel free to delete this post if you want. I fully acknowledge I've never run an RPG company and this is far afield in this topic. These thoughts, which I acknowledge may be out of bounds which is why I offer, are as a result of this Kickstarter and things that I see Paizo could have and should have done better.

As I said, I want you to succeed.

technarken wrote:
kadance wrote:
Got a link?

Archon choke-slams Ninja Division under a bus

I got an auto-reply from that email within half an hour.

Here is the portion of update 59 to Chronicle X by Load Board Game that is pertinent to Ninja Division and Starfinder. Below is copied and pasted from the update I was unable to carry over the bolding on some words:

Load Board Game wrote:

But you’ve heard all of this before, so we will now give you the inside scoop on what has been going on over here:

We at Archon regularly provide production to other companies, but due to payment issues with one such company (Ninja Division) our management was forced to work on plan B to secure the business. The potential loss of hundreds of thousands of dollars, brought about by this undertaking, forced us to slow development on several projects, such as “Call of the Void”. Instead we had to focus on the implementation of new technologies that would allow us to create plastic injection (of a top tier quality) This was to provide us with an additional revenue stream via our services to make up for losses incurred from dealing with Ninja Division.

So how has this affected Chronicle X? In order to keep the business running our project manager had to work on Chronicle X and other functions simultaneously. Basically, as we are a small team we were not able to spend as much time on Chronicle X as we had wanted due to the aforementioned setbacks. But we dug in our heels and pushed through it regardless.

The issue has been sorted for the past two months and we were able to relocate resources back to Chronicle X. For future projects we have implemented plans to ensure that this does not happen again.

Concerning The Ninja Division kickstarter project “Starfinder”, for those of you who are Archon studio backers and have backed Starfinder, you can contact us here: we can not promise you anything, as we are currently still in discussions with third parties, but we may have a little something to compensate you for the loss of the project at our own expense.

Fumarole wrote:
Sabirwolf wrote:
I understand that a lot of that extra % will go to supplying the demand, but production costs per unit go down the more you produce (bulk order cost savings) and it's pretty hard to blow that much extra profit unless you go out for blackjack and hookers.
One of the things that clued me into ND not being very business savvy was the fact that at the higher pledge tiers, the price per mini went up, which should disincentivize backers from pledging at the higher tiers. I realized this after creating a spreadsheet with all of the minis and tiers available at the time and doing the calculations. It's just bad business sense to increase the price per mini as someone orders more of them, so that, coupled with warnings from others about ND's past prompted me to not pledge, even though I dearly wanted Starfinder minis. I posted my findings here on the forums but it didn't seem to get much attention, unfortunately, as perhaps it could have helped others avoid throwing their money away.

Well, that thread does further the position of the folks arguing Paizo has a moral obligation as there are another two supportive posts for the kickstarter from the CCO/Publisher and one about the great deal this kickstarter is by the CEO. Both are on page two of the thread, the same page as Fumarole linked to.

So now we have two threads where the CCO/Publisher and the CEO have posted to support the kickstarter campaign prior to conclusion, am I missing more? Is there a thread where either or both the CCO/Publisher and the CEO address this kickstarter in any way after the campaign ended?

I would normally suggest going to the Starfinder Masterclass Kickstarter comments to read these responses in context, but they really do not give any additional information when put into context with the question asked. These responses are just more vague statements without detail or timelines that have now been coupled with some half hearted defenses.

It is nice to see Ninja Division recognize that starting a new kickstarter would be horribly irresponsible. I wish they would have come to that conclusion after the continuing fiasco with Super Dungeon: Explore rather than starting three new kickstarters that now all have problems.

I am very curious what they mean by 'restructuring to secure more funding to deliver your delayed products.' My understanding is that they are down to the owners and one employee. Not much left to restructure.

I am really curious on how Ninja Division was: "Being side-swiped by a massively congested games market is NOT fraud." As Realo Foxtrot was kind enough to point out above, each of these four kickstarter projects that Ninja Division set forth well exceeded the funding levels that Ninja Division determined were necessary to make the project viable. This was sold product, not creating product and hope it sells in the market place. The projects were already successful in the market place. Heck, the market was better than Ninja Division said it needed to be. So, I'm curious as to what this one means.

Also, apparently pointing out Ninja Division's failures, demanding they fulfill their obligations and communicate with their backers is on-line bullying now. Go figure.

Robert Gooding wrote:
Summersnow wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:
Repeat after me: Paizo is NOT LIABLE for Ninja Divisions problems.

I've had this discussion previously.

Paizo became liable when, despite warnings to the contrary, they reassured backers that they had investigated those concerns and ND would not have any issues and fulfill the kickstarter.

Paizo didn't just hand a license over to ND, they SOLD the project to backers who knew better but went ahead anyways because they trusted Paizo's word.

In that light, does that not make them indictable for accessory to fraud should the nd investigations go ahead since they both helped sell the scam and profited from it?

Really, lets avoid discussing criminal stuff and the 'f' word. I think Summersnow was thinking more of a civil cause of action such as negligent referral.

Personally, not sold as others that Paizo has no civil liability under the basic Kickstarter, but I covered that in an earlier post. Why Paizo didn't demand changes to how the Kickstarter was presented is beyond me.

Redelia wrote:
So in other words, what you are actually saying to Paizo is 'Quit working on getting me my minis and get busy apologizing.'

No, we are saying Paizo needs to commit to making things right for the backers and accept that Paizo has a responsibility to do that. That may not mean every miniature or most but it does mean that they need to make good faith efforts.

1 person marked this as a favorite.
technarken wrote:
Is 0 greater than, less than, or equal to, -1?

My math on this is:

Unable to sell license for Starfinder Miniatures = No money for Paizo

Sell to Ninja Division = Money for Paizo (estimate 28 - 40k based on Ninja Divisions latest update)

Have COO and CCO/Publisher encourage kickstarter = more sales which means Paizo gets more money if license was percentage not a flat fee (don't know, only information we have is Ninja Division saying royalties were 6.3% asked and Paizo refused to talk about it when I asked before if Paizo made money on this kickstarter.)

To disagree with Sara, in my opinion, Paizo has an obligation (at a minimum moral obligation) to provide a resolution to backers of this Kickstarter. I would expect the Customer Service/Community Manager to be the one that announces this. I believe Paizo has this obligation because Piazo selected Ninja Division, allowed the Paizo logo to be used in the campaign before Ninja Division's and throughout the kickstarter, that Paizo appears first in the 'About Us' section of the kickstarter, Paizo is more prominent in the 'About Us' section and throughout the kickstarter, and then had both the COO and CCO/Publisher personally vouch for this campaign. (Yes, I know that the top of the Kickstarter has 'Created by Ninja Division Publishing' but Paizo is showcased more than Ninja Division, has more written about it in the 'About Us' and the mere inclusion of Paizo in the 'About Us' section makes this a Paizo/Ninja Division Kickstarter to me. If Paizo was not an 'us' in the Kickstarter they should not have been included in the Kickstarter 'About us' section. I am assuming Paizo reviewed this campaign before it was posted and approved the post.)

Deflecting all the blame/responsibility of this to Ninja Division is the equivalent of Paizo saying that they got theirs, the royalties from the Kickstarter, and then looking at the Backers, Paizo's very customers, and saying something along the lines of 'I got mine. Sorry Ninja Division failed you guys, tough luck but that's how kickstarters go some times, better luck next time. Not my fault.'

So, I'm curious, does the Customer Service/Community Manager of Paizo incorporated state as a matter of company policy that Paizo has no responsibility to the backers of the Starfinder Masterclass Miniature Kickstarter to provide some kind of resolution or are you saying that you, personally in your official capacity, are not here to provide resolution for the backers and that is one of the questions you are waiting for from the Officers of Paizo?

I would really like to know, and I'm just speaking morally not asking legally, does Paizo as a company believe that is has a responsibility to provide some kind of resolution to the backers of the Starfinder Masterclass Miniature kickstarter or does Paizo believe that the responsibility to the backers of this kickstarter falls solely on Ninja Division?

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