The same way you get paladins to fall. Orc babies.
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get as high a DC on a Grease spell that you can. IMO
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Tammy would rather play hopscotch with his entrails.
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The short answer is, you don't.
Without divine intervention, it's impossible to make a deity fall.
He's one of the most dedicated adversaries of evil in existence. What you're asking is next to impossible. Maybe if there was a love interest involved that could lure Ragathiel from his righteous path.
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Making a deity change alignment is such a long form game it would probably be beyond the scope of a single campaign. Outsiders, deities included, are generally agents of their alignment, and for one to work outside of that alignment enough that it would warrant a change is a pretty spectacular idea.
For alternate means of defeating a deity, however, there are other options than making them 'fall.'
1) Utterly embarrass them. Your group manages to set up an elaborate rube goldberg-esque caper that causes the deity to lose a lot of face with the mortals of {insert pertinent regional level}. Make it big enough that your evil or good adjacent deities manage to pick up a number of former followers as well.
2) Ruin their church. It's one thing to ruin the reputation of a god, but its a completely different thing to systematically uproot and tear down their clergy. As an example, I had a player (LE high priest of assassin god of my CS) during a period of three years downtime infiltrate and indoctrinate a Sarenrae/Aroden/Iomedae hybridish type church (basically the Catholic Church). At the culmination of the downtime, Kelden assassinated the High Saint, and sent the most popular church on the planet into a nose-dive as the more LN corrupted priests began an overly disruptive battle for ascension.
3) Trap them in an extra-dimensional whatsit. The party manages to recreate Rovagug's prison, and drops ole' Raggy in it.
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Hey, Ragathiel, old ally and new foe, I have someone I'd like for you to meet... I know that they changed all of my view points...
Somehow force them to watch Gigli on an endless loop, where the only way to escape is to eat a kitten.
I agree this is virtually impossible.
It would require setting up circumstances where the only way to achieve what he wants is to do something evil. But he has to choose to do evil.
You can't set up some trolley cart scenario and expect that to work.
He has to choose evil over good.
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It's actually very simple; not easy by any means, but certainly simple. Ragathiel burns with the fury of Hell, but, partially because of his hatred for the father who tore away one of his wings, he manages to apply that constructively as the burning avenger of Heaven, leading the charge against Hell.
Ragathiel's whole "thing" among the Empyreal Lords, embodied by the boons and Prestige Class he offers to his followers, is that he toes the line of what you can justify as Lawful Good. After all, he's the Empyreal Lord of VENGEANCE. Not justice, not even "righteous" fury, but straight-up vengeance. And his unique Prestige Class is basically all about being a Hitman For Heaven; his followers mimic the ruthlessness of their lord in being the bloody sword of the celestials.
So really, "all" you have to do to make Ragathiel fall is Just. Keep. PUSHING. Do everything you can to piss him off and rile him up. Frustrate him at every turn. Stoke his rage and his WRATH and make him have to resort to more and more ruthless acts. It won't be easy, it won't be fast, but it's entirely possible to eventually get Ragathiel to finally just go too far.
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You'd have to do something that ticks him off so much that he takes unjust vengence upon you , as if you have it coming, he wouldn't fall.
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You'd have to do something that ticks him off so much that he takes unjust vengence upon you , as if you have it coming, he wouldn't fall.
So... repeatedly compare him to Dispater and trigger his daddy issues?
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If you do manage to make Ragathiel fall, would he stop being your enemy? Somehow, I don't think so.
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Reverse gravity maybe? Falling up is still falling right?
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Like, Ragathiel's paladin code is all about being aware that good can come from evil sources. Trying to make Ragathiel fall is as impossible as making other good deities to fall, you'd need to be deity level mastermind in first place to make that happen.
Like, I'm pretty sure successfully corrupting good deity to evil is enough to trigger your own ascension into demi godhood :P Or at least mythic tiers
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If it were possible Asmodeus would have done it by now.
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Campaign Idea: After many years of distrust from his celestial allies, Ragathiel decides that he's done playing Mr. Nice Guy and wages war on the Fiendish races with no limits on any actions his armies will take.
And it works. The invincible armies of hell lose battle after battle, demons are put on the back foot, and the daemons look like they will ironically get eradicated before mortals do. The problem is, Ragathiel's new brutally effective tactics are having negative effects on the planes around him as well. The PCs might have to make alliances with beings they don't trust to bring an end to the fallen empyreal lord's undiscriminating crusade.
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Yeah, that would be a hard sell for a most PCs, short of the multiverse being destroyed I don't see them biting.
Well, part of the idea of the campaign would be "how far are you willing to go to destroy an enemy and what price would you pay to do so?"
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Yeah, that would be a hard sell for a most PCs, short of the multiverse being destroyed I don't see them biting.Well, part of the idea of the campaign would be "how far are you willing to go to destroy an enemy and what price would you pay to do so?"
As presented that's more for your Ragathiel than your players, as aside from fiend aligned PCs I don't seem them stepping in.
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About the only way? An extremely long game where you "feed" him ever-increasing numbers of enemies, causing him to become more and more ruthless in his actions, upping the stakes until he starts having to make morally questionable actions more and more often.
Really more trouble than it's worth.
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Also I hope none of your player are outsiders of any sort because while he is a beast house, his powers get cranked up to 11 against those guys. I personally love his ability to set devils on fire, it just makes me happy deep inside. And even if your party manages to get past his ridiculous saves and immunites they still have to contend with his ability to jank any mercy he damn well wants onto his lay on hands, which you can't stop him using. And his attack line isn't counting power attack or smite damage.
Make Ragathiel fall eh?
Ahahahahahaha...
No need! Given his current trajectory, he'll make a fine Horseman of War in a millennium or two!
*Grins menacingly*
Make Ragathiel fall eh?
Ahahahahahaha...
No need! Given his current trajectory, he'll make a fine Horseman of War in a millennium or two!
*Grins menacingly*
*Looks a bit nervous*
You know what?
For once you might be right...
*Plans to stage Anger Management intervention for Ragathiel*
Set him up on a blind date Eiseth.
That's why it's blind, he wouldn't agree if he knew what was coming.
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He can't save them all!! Mwahahahahahaha!!!!!
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That's why it's blind, he wouldn't agree if he knew what was coming.I meant the lore kinda implies they already hang out, don't know if it would be considered dating, but it's there.
My bad, I thought the implication was that they'd been involved once but it ended badly.
...Y'know, I wonder if Widow's Cry used to be Ragathiel's palace. I mean, it's right there in his dad's realm. It'd be amusing on all sorts of levels if he sneaks into Dis periodically for clandestine rondezvous with a whore queen at his old haunt. I have a feeling the other Empyreal lords wouldn't like that. Better yet, since both are said to lead raids on the other's plane, if they're getting together mid-campaign, under the noses of their soldiers.
Ragathiel's headquarters, during a raid on Hell:
An angel walks in, message in hand "Sir, we have reports of a Whore Queen breaking through our lines, headed this way! Scouts thing she may be coming after you personally!"
Ragathiel nods sagely, draws his blade and dons his helm. "Let her through. I'll have something special ready for her."
Some time later, Eiseth bursts into Ragathiel's command center, to find him seater at a table set for two, replete with candles, fine china, and heavenly food. "Hey gorgeous, how's life? I heard about that business with Lorthact. If he ever tries to sneak into Heaven I'll make sure he lives long enough for us to deliver him to you. Is dad doing well?"
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Eh. Change that to his SUCCESS actually having negative effects as the planes get lop-sided and you might have something.Campaign Idea: After many years of distrust from his celestial allies, Ragathiel decides that he's done playing Mr. Nice Guy and wages war on the Fiendish races with no limits on any actions his armies will take.
And it works. The invincible armies of hell lose battle after battle, demons are put on the back foot, and the daemons look like they will ironically get eradicated before mortals do. The problem is, Ragathiel's new brutally effective tactics are having negative effects on the planes around him as well. The PCs might have to make alliances with beings they don't trust to bring an end to the fallen empyreal lord's undiscriminating crusade.
Well, I imagine that campaign would start with the PC's home town annihilated by the Unfettered Crusade because one of their neighbors was a part of an infernal cult.
Only way to make sure you've got them all is a targeted meteor strike.
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Well, if it's possible to redeem a Demon Lord, I suppose that it's technically possible to make an Empyreal Lord fall. Then again, while a certain evil demigod might want to be redeemed, I have a hard time imagining Ragathiel not wanting to be good anymore.
While a group of level ~20 PCs (likely with mythic tiers lore-wise, but maybe not mechanically), could no doubt kill him outright, making him fall is another thing entirely. They would more than likely require the assistance of an evil god or demigod to help concoct or orchestrate such a plan. I certainly can't imagine what that plan would have to be. I don't think it's enough to just make him do something "evil"; one would have to fundamentally change his state of existence.
But given what happened to Typhon, I would actually agree that Asmodeus likes Ragathiel perfectly fine right where he is.
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Campaign Idea: After many years of distrust from his celestial allies, Ragathiel decides that he's done playing Mr. Nice Guy and wages war on the Fiendish races with no limits on any actions his armies will take.
And it works. The invincible armies of hell lose battle after battle, demons are put on the back foot, and the daemons look like they will ironically get eradicated before mortals do. The problem is, Ragathiel's new brutally effective tactics are having negative effects on the planes around him as well. The PCs might have to make alliances with beings they don't trust to bring an end to the fallen empyreal lord's undiscriminating crusade.
Eh. Change that to his SUCCESS actually having negative effects as the planes get lop-sided and you might have something.
Mostly because the mind boggles at how one could actually destroy Daemons in a morally problematic way in the first place, especially when you already ruled out actions against their mortal feedstock, let alone in such a way as to cause psychic scarring or what have you to the non-Lower Outer Planes or Inner Planes.
I'm pretty sure that in Ventnor's campaign pitch, Ragathiel has already Fallen.
I mean if his army is already rampaging through the Lower Planes on a war of annihilation, and is perpetrating an act of gencide on a planar scale, with his blessing, then I don't really see him (or most of his army for that matter) being that Good any more.
I mean some acts are still pretty much Good or Evil despite the intent that the perpetrator has, right? (And Yes I place genocide in the Evil category).
I am also going to weigh in and say that this is impossible. Empyreal Lords are demigods, which means they have a spark of divinity. The idea that mortals can have a material impact on the divine is something I flat-out reject. As mythic characters you are maybe getting closer to the possibility, but mythic characters still are not demigods.
But the fundamental problem is that demigods are living a completely different existence than mortals or even mythic heroes. It's a mistake to apply mortal parameters to the divine. How does an ant affect the nature of a human being? They can piss me off to the point where I exterminate them, but they aren't going to fundamentally change who I am as a person. Because they're ants.
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Oil of Invisibility applied to an Immovable Rod anchored at about shin level.
EDIT:Just looked up his stat block, possess the rod and cast mindblank, have a friend anchor it, and then go invisible.
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Campaign Idea: After many years of distrust from his celestial allies, Ragathiel decides that he's done playing Mr. Nice Guy and wages war on the Fiendish races with no limits on any actions his armies will take.
And it works. The invincible armies of hell lose battle after battle, demons are put on the back foot, and the daemons look like they will ironically get eradicated before mortals do. The problem is, Ragathiel's new brutally effective tactics are having negative effects on the planes around him as well. The PCs might have to make alliances with beings they don't trust to bring an end to the fallen empyreal lord's undiscriminating crusade.
Eh. Change that to his SUCCESS actually having negative effects as the planes get lop-sided and you might have something.
Mostly because the mind boggles at how one could actually destroy Daemons in a morally problematic way in the first place, especially when you already ruled out actions against their mortal feedstock, let alone in such a way as to cause psychic scarring or what have you to the non-Lower Outer Planes or Inner Planes.
I'm pretty sure that in Ventnor's campaign pitch, Ragathiel has already Fallen.
I mean if his army is already rampaging through the Lower Planes on a war of annihilation, and is perpetrating an act of gencide on a planar scale, with his blessing, then I don't really see him (or most of his army for that matter) being that Good any more.
I mean some acts are still pretty much Good or Evil despite the intent that the perpetrator has, right? (And Yes I place genocide in the Evil category).
If that were the case, he'd have already fallen, as would every other soldier in Heaven's armies. Chronicle of the Righteous says of him "Ragathiel takes an active role in the battle against Hell's fiendish legions. He shines at the head of his army, a figure of golden light cleaving through the ranks of devils that face him." He hasn't fallen yet, why would he ever, if fighting evil outsiders is all it took? Outsiders aren't like mortals, there's no Devils who live at home, knit, and raise lemures. Devils live to torture mortal souls. Demons eat souls. Qlippoths and Daemons want to kill everything in existence. The annihilation of such beings is cause for celebration, not mourning.
On the other hand, Ragathiel has stats - in Bestiary 6, to be specific.
Huh. I did not know that. That is an...interesting choice.
If that were the case, he'd have already fallen, as would every other soldier in Heaven's armies. Chronicle of the Righteous says of him "Ragathiel takes an active role in the battle against Hell's fiendish legions. He shines at the head of his army, a figure of golden light cleaving through the ranks of devils that face him." He hasn't fallen yet, why would he ever, if fighting evil outsiders is all it took?
As per Ventnor's campaign pitch, he not fighting the force of the Lower Planes from the frontline, in some obscure planar location, for some unknown prize...
He's fight a war, with the expressed purposes of ending the existence of entire "species" of sentient beings, that for all intents and purposes are capeble of love, loss and joy.Not to mention the problematic proposition of Ragathiel, literally having to pull the Abyss apart, to stop the place from generating new Evil "life".
Yes they are monster. They are a blight on existence, and constant threat for everything good, loving and peaceful. If the position was that, you had a celestial army, led by Ragathiel and a fiendish army fighting over some corner of the planar landscape of the Lower or Upper planes, I wouldn't bat an eye. The Celestials would clearly be the "Good" guys and the Fiends would be the "Bad".
Once however, one of the parties commit themselves to the complete and utter destruction of the other, without consideration and contemplation of the consequences of such a momentus decision, they have cross some kind of "moral" boundary. This isn't a problem for the Fiends as they are litteral monsters, they have nothing to fear from being so base, the Celestials however have everything to lose as they will very likely be changed by committing such deeds.
Its a classic example of its hard to be Good, but easy to be Evil.
Outsiders aren't like mortals, there's no Devils who live at home, knit, and raise lemures. Devils live to torture mortal souls. Demons eat souls. Qlippoths and Daemons want to kill everything in existence. The annihilation of such beings is cause for celebration, not mourning.
Which is why not outsider, is entitled the same moral considerations you would give a mortal? You can't murder them? They are not free beings, so you can freely enslave them? Torturing one isn't the same as torturing a mortal?
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If that were the case, he'd have already fallen, as would every other soldier in Heaven's armies. Chronicle of the Righteous says of him "Ragathiel takes an active role in the battle against Hell's fiendish legions. He shines at the head of his army, a figure of golden light cleaving through the ranks of devils that face him." He hasn't fallen yet, why would he ever, if fighting evil outsiders is all it took?As per Ventnor's campaign pitch, he not fighting the force of the Lower Planes from the frontline, in some obscure planar location, for some unknown prize...
He's fight a war, with the expressed purposes of ending the existence of entire "species" of sentient beings, that for all intents and purposes are capeble of love, loss and joy.
Not to mention the problematic proposition of Ragathiel, literally having to pull the Abyss apart, to stop the place from generating new Evil "life".
Yes they are monster. They are a blight on existence, and constant threat for everything good, loving and peaceful. If the position was that, you had a celestial army, led by Ragathiel and a fiendish army fighting over some corner of the planar landscape of the Lower or Upper planes, I wouldn't bat an eye. The Celestials would clearly be the "Good" guys and the Fiends would be the "Bad".
Once however, one of the parties commit themselves to the complete and utter destruction of the other, without consideration and contemplation of the consequences of such a momentus decision, they have cross some kind of "moral" boundary. This isn't a problem for the Fiends as they are litteral monsters, they have nothing to fear from being so base, the Celestials however have everything to lose as they will very likely be changed by committing such deeds.
Its a classic example of its hard to be Good, but easy to be Evil.
That's literally what they're already doing, it's just that they're pretty well matched, no one has an upper hand. It's not as if Heaven has a POW camp full of Pit Fiends somewhere.
Outsiders aren't like mortals, there's no Devils who live at home, knit, and raise lemures. Devils live to torture mortal souls. Demons eat souls. Qlippoths and Daemons want to kill everything in existence. The annihilation of such beings is cause for celebration, not mourning.Which is why not outsider, is entitled the same moral considerations you would give a mortal? You can't murder them? They are not free beings, so you can freely enslave them? Torturing one isn't the same as torturing a mortal?
Pretty much. Mortals, no matter how evil, are in theory redeemable. That'not so for Devils, Demons, etc. Here's the canonical fluff from Paths of the Righteous on the Crimson Templar, a prestige class specifically for Ragathiel's followers:
Even the most devout followers of good can recognize the
need for ruthlessness when opposing true evil. The crimson
templars of Ragathiel are taught that mercy is a virtue
reserved for only those capable of accepting redemption.
They must learn this lesson well, for they are trained to
face the heartless legions of Hell.
Canonically, Devils and the like are fought more ruthlessly because they aren't capable of accepting redemption. Daemons aren't going to change their ways and decide they can coexist with other life, so the only thing to do with them is exterminate them.
If Ragathiel was going to fall from fighting devils ruthlessly, it would've already happened, because that's literally what his church trains its most devout followers to do. And devils are more reasonable than most evil outsiders. At least you can bargain with them. You can't bargain with a Qlippoth.
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First of all, I would like to excuse for my atrocious grammar/spelling in the post above. My phone has been sent to a auto-correction correction facility, for re-education...
That's literally what they're already doing, it's just that they're pretty well matched, no one has an upper hand. It's not as if Heaven has a POW camp full of Pit Fiends somewhere.
I...errr....guess I thought the Heavens had better planers?
I mean, they could focus their attention on saving mortal souls on the material plane to starve the lower planes?They could attempt a planar condone of the Lower Planes?
Trap the Fiends in demi-planes?
I kind of get the battlefield summary execution of Fiends thing (even if I would consider it iffy), but I'll still claim there's a certain difference in fighting a battle to protect something, and invading the "homeland" of someone with the expressed purpose of destroying their homes, their culture, their lives and basis for existence.
Now don't get me wrong, I actually like your "Take no s*&@s" Heavens. It seems like a much more proactive and militant place, geared for wars on a planar scale.
No more, peace for the Outer Sphere, only a unending war against every single group of Outsiders that reside there. Being Good guys, its the Fiends first, then maybe the Proteans next?, then the Aeons?, then once all the other have been removed as they can't be redeemed, then all that's left is the war in the Heavens to ensure proper orthodoxy of those left.
Its very 40K-esque
Pretty much. Mortals, no matter how evil, are in theory redeemable. That'not so for Devils, Demons, etc. Here's the canonical fluff from Paths of the Righteous on the Crimson Templar, a prestige class specifically for Ragathiel's followers:
Canonically, Devils and the like are fought more ruthlessly because they aren't capable of accepting redemption. Daemons aren't going to change their ways and decide they can coexist with other life, so the only thing to do with them is exterminate them.
If Ragathiel was going to fall from fighting devils ruthlessly, it would've already happened, because that's literally what his church trains its most devout followers to do. And devils are more reasonable than most evil outsiders. At least you can bargain with them. You can't bargain with a Qlippoth.
I am going to flat-out disagree with you in parts here.
Firstly, every single being is capable of Redemption/Falling. It's a matter of the right time, the right MacGuffin and the right story pitch.
Sure it harder for some to do so, Outsiders especially so, it's however possible, and it's something he himself should appreciate given his own history.
As for bargaining with Fiends...well its kind of their shtick.
You simply have to have something that they want, be willing to trade it away and know how to negotiate with the different kinds of Fiends.
Bargaining with a Qlippoth? Sure if you have something it want...Now it might not keep it's end of the bargain, unless it beneficial to it, but that kinds of comes with the territory of bargaining with Fiends. (I could imagine that they might be interested in knowledge about the Mendevian Wardstones...)
Finally, Have Ragathiel Fall for just doing his "Job" wasn't really the point at all.
In the campaign pitch, Ragathiel had snapped and basically gone rogue from the Heavens, as I read it. So he has already "deviated" enough from his fellow Empyreal Lords (and Ladies), that he's for all intents and purposes "Fallen".