Sosiel Vaenic

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Any and all Gods in the Outer Planes accept this universal greeting: Waaazzzzuuuuuupppppp!!!


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Iomedae: *Saluting* - "Reporting for duty, ma'am!"
Erastil: *Hugging* - "Hi Grandpa Erastil!"
Torag: *Nervously rubbing neck* "Um... I don't know how dwarves greet each other. What am I supposed to do here? Touch beards?"
Shelyn: *Gawking like a moron* - "Oh wow... I'm sure everyone tells you this but you're really, really, really pretty, miss."
Sarenrae: *Shielding eyes* - "Greetings, Your Holiness."
Cayden Cailean: *Fist bump and hug* - "Sup, bro. Wanna grab a drink before we go and punch some Asmodeans?"
Desna: "Sooooooooooo... Are you secretly a Great Old God? Also, could you put on some clothes? Hate to be a prude but you're... Kind of distracting and it makes it hard for me to talk. Or think, really."
Abadar: "Hello, sir. Do you think you explain to me what a mortgage-backed security is?"
Irori: *Bows head respectfully* "I'm honored by your presence and wish to learn much from you, Irori-Sensei."
Pharasma: Soooooooooo... Can I ask what happened to Aro- Hey, wait, what do you mean I gotta go back to the beginning of the line!?"
Gozreh: "Sorry about the whole pollution thing. I try to recycle but there isn't always a blue or green bin around."
Nethys: "Don't blast me. Please?"
Calistria: "Ok, weird question but you wouldn't be related to girl called Sera would you? She's an elf from another planet that likes bees and getting revenge on people."
Gorum: *Throws up peace sign* - "Ever tried to give peace a chance, Mister Lord in Iron?"
Asmodeus: *Drunkenly tries to punch him in the face*
Zon-Kuthon: "Nope. Nope, nope, nope." *Precedes to run away in terror*
Urgathoa: *Dry heaving* "Oh my god! Where the Hell is that smell something from and those flies! Oh, it's you... Awkward."
Norgorber: *Scratching head* "Huh? I thought he would be here. Let's get out here before- ARGH!" *Suddenly stabbed in the back by Norgorber in disguise*
Lamashtu: "Stay the heck way from me, you jackal-faced baby eater!"
Rovagug: Can't greet or address Rovagug because he's trapped in the Dead Vault. Also, he's not very talkative because he's an omnicidal monster.


ElegantlyWasted wrote:
And variant Aasimars are kosher, correct?

Yes. Phntm888 mentions it on the first page under Character Creation.


Have any of the other core gods allied with the newly ascended Nocticula? I could see Calistria and Shelyn doing so. Erastil, Iomedae and Torag... Not so much.


Cayden Cailean would be hilarious.


Dotting as well. There's an Enchanter Wizard with the Accidental Clone trait that I've been constructing for a while now and would to see get play.


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I think that's a fair criticism, xenocrat. Paizo isn't immune to using tired tropes like that. The whole redeeming the sexy baddie is a staple of the fantasy genre and we see it everywhere nowadays. I mean, half of Kylo Ren's appeal in the Star Wars fandom is this strange desire by fans for Rey to redeem him since he looks like Adam Driver, ignoring the fact he's an insane manchild. :P

That aside, I am more or less confident that Paizo will likely start turning away from this trope after awhile. Most people are unaware of the cliche and Paizo has used it enough that I'm sure even they're getting tired of it. Redemption stories are great! They can even work for horrific demon lords and runelords who probably violated and sexually exploited thousands upon thousands of people... I think? But when they come with the trappings of less than stellar genre conventions "Only beautiful people deserve the chance at redemption" they get stale and predictable rather quickly.

But Paizo has to know all that, so I'm sure we'll see less of it over time. Hell, maybe we already have there have been a bunch of "ugly" male baddies that have gotten their chance to be better?


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Sorshen's motivation to change is practical, if not exactly a riveting narrative of self-analysis and repentance for several lifetimes of evil. Not that I'm knocking it. It makes sense, especially since she's only going from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Neutral. I mean, if Gorum and Calistria prove anything its that Chaotic Neutral isn't that high of a bar to reach. :P

I still sort of wish there was more of an inciting incident for Nocticula's change other than "Being evil has gotten boring after countless eons." Arueshalae redemption was great because it had a sizable backstory and her continuing to make an active effort to undo some of the horrible things she's done. But just like in Sorshen's case, Nocticula's only going from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Neutral, so her not needing that great or weighty of a push might make sense. Still, it would have been nice to have a story of Sarenrae or Shelyn reaching out to her and getting her to realize the futility of evil, or maybe her just looking at brother and realizing how much of a freak he is and how she doesn't want any part of that depravity anymore.

Of course, I still haven't read the this last adventure yet, so who knows what extra bits of lore gets dropped in them! He's to hoping there's a lot.

Also, thanks CorvusMask for dropping all this info for us. I really appreciate it.


Does the AP explain why Nocticula decided to "redeem" herself? Like, was there significant event or experience that brought out this change or did she just decide to start being less of a horrible person?


Given the flexibility of what Witch Patrons can be, would it make sense for Sorshen or Nocticula to be the mysterious force behind a Witch getting their familiar and arcane spells?


Is Sorshen's hair black or a very dark purple?


Might also end up doing a paladin of Arshea instead if I can think of a good paladin code for Arshea


I know its a bit late but I figured the forum the tradition should be continued anyway.

My game hasn't started yet but I'm thinking about playing a Archaeologist Bard with the Accidental Clone trait.


Voss wrote:

New least favorite companion: Nok Nok

I'm not sure why most rulers would take him along.

I'm not sure why his stats are so bad- He has two positive modifiers.
Max Dex and +1 Con, 3 negatives, including strength, of course. Between his stats and his class, he's pretty much going to fail any save that isn't reflex.

Oh, and he's a knife master rogue. I can see him doing damage, but such a one trick glass cannon...

I'm not sure why anyone in the capital or the party wouldn't just smother him in his sleep. He actively tells people he's Lamashtu's favored in the middle of a crisis.

Well my kingdom has freedom of religion as part of its Constitution, so baby-eating Lamashtu worshipers must be tolerated, I say!


Paizo's done if before. Remember when Erastil was a chauvinist?


Me too. Althrough I think Calistria covers most of her possible portfolio. Making her Chaotic Good instead Chaotic Neutral would be a more interesting change I think.


Basically what the subject title says. With the new edition being a thing, it seems like a great opportunity to talk about changes that could be made to flavor of some the core deities.

So far it seems many of them more still pretty much exactly the same, but I think that some could use an update. Like Erastil not only caring about rural communities and being mad when adventurers go out to fight
baddies out in the world. There's also Cayden Cailean portfolio probably needing to focus more on being a god of adventure and freedom instead of just drinking. And making Irori just Neutral now that the Monk restrictions to only lawful have been removed. Oh and Torag not being so genocidal would be nice too.

Those are my pet peeves anyone else have any ideas or suggestions?


I don't see how having hard alignment restrictions removes nuance in games. Sure the Cleric of Asmodeus has Lawful Evil on his sheet but that doesn't mean that his character can't have complicated reasons for why he follows Asmodeus. Furthermore, the Cleric may not see his actions or deity as Evil whatsoever.

Maybe he believes that the only way to create an ordered society is by enslaving the unworthy or ensuring that the masses don't have a say in anything. Yeah, that seems pretty Evil to us and likely the party of heroes trying to take him down but that doesn't mean he has to be a BWAHAHA villain. The nuance can still be expressed even through his arguments for why he sees the slavery of others as Good. The players can ultimately call him out on his b$#+@$&&, but that still doesn't mean that the character doesn't have nuance in sense of having character motivations that go beyond just being an a&@$+@+ who worships a bigger a+@~@*+.


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I miss reincarnate.


I don't see Goblins being Neutral Evil psychos makes them unplayable and undeserving of being in Core. Not all campaigns are Good-aligned or even take place in Golarion.

Just because they're in the book doesn't mean you have to use them. Besides, I think having an "Evil" race in Core will help out tables that just want to play murderhobos. They deserve attention too after all.


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Seems to me that taking away Goblins murderous attitudes waters them down to point that there largely no different from Halflings or Gnomes when it comes to their wackiness.

Why take that away? Let them stay psychotic pyromaniacs. It might not work for some tables, but I think you still have them in Core while still retaining most of their original flavor without pulling a "Well, some tribes are Good or friendly" retcon.


Being evil is easy. Just be selfish. All evil is selfishness anyway, so do whatever benefits your character and don't give a damn who it affects others. Just try not to screw over your party.


Why couldn't this story be told as a sequel to the DS9 series? I'm just wondering because it seems to be me that they could have saved themselves a lot of trouble by putting the show in the future than the past.


Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Orville Redenbacher wrote:
Any word on Rose's trial in the next film?
I think it got leaked that she'll get a stiff chewing out by the higher ups and demoted to janitor but she'll still have plenty of important side jobs to do because the brass likes her. Then she and Finn will combine their janitorial knowledge of the First Order and the Resistance to save the Republic.

Can't we just write her out of the story entirely? I think Star Wars can only handle so many characters and Rose is one to many.

This new trilogy should be about Rey, Finn, Kylo and maybe Poe. That's it. We don't need three different storylines and multiple arcs occurring all at once.


Creon Vizcarra wrote:
Milozilla wrote:
The phrase "players drag a once-grand nation kicking and screaming into the modern day" kinda worries me. I really hope it doesn't have too many modern day political influences. Really kills the immersion when people bring that stuff into the game. But hopefully it just turns out to be What Jade Reagent should have been and have alternate routes for those that don't necessarily want to be the new monarchs Lapdogs.
Modern day in Avistan apparently means hereditary monarchies where no monarchs are married or have any legitimate (or even known) children. I'm serious; every monarch in the Inner Sea is single and has no known children, except for Stavian, which is kind of immersion breaking for me because of how dangerous that is for such a type of government. There was a reason Henry VIII went through six wives and it wasn't just a wandering eye.

Does that logic even still apply in a universe where people can be constantly resurrected from death and have their lifespan lengthened considerably?

Why bother fathering/mothering a bunch of brats to continue the dynasty when I can just live forever as an Immortal God-King/Queen.

Death is poor people after all.


MannyGoblin wrote:
Well since men have been kissing,hugging,groping women for so long in movies, turn about is fair play.

Not really. It was horrible and gross when dudes thought they could get away with (looking at you Han) and its horrible when woman try to get away with it. We should break the cycle because there is no such thing as fair play when it comes to this.


Anyone else kind of creeped out out that Rose kissed Finn without his permission or nonverbal consent?


Just watched the film again with my brother and I got to admit I liked it a lot more. Well, actually I just loced everything with Rey and Ren a lot more. I idea that Rey wanted to redeem Ren not only because she felt it was necessary but also because she was on some level attracted to him really added a lot more dimension (and sexuality) to the story. That said, I give even less of a s#~% about Poe, Finn and Rose's stories. They really feel like distractions from a much better story and the themes in them are cookie cutter and obvious. But, hey, Daisy Ridley's "your breaking my heart face" was still awesome.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
I actually really appreciated that rey's parents where nobodies all the endless speculation about it irritated the tar out of me.

I like that Rey's parent were nobodies but I really don't see how that twist is all that worthy of praise. Rey still is essentially a magical chosen one with abilities that only a small amount of people have and if Snoke is to believed she's has been chosen by the Light to bring down the Dark of the First Order.

The Star Wars story is still about metahumans with magic swords empowered by an all-powerful Force being at the center of an intergalactic conflict. Sure Finn, Rose and Poe are around but the narrative of the Last Jedi marginalizes them compared to all the Force users.

Really, if the sequel wanted to really change things Rey wouldn't be a Force user at all and would kick Kylo Ren's just using a blaster like a normal person.


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Black Dougal wrote:
Marc Radle wrote:

Daisey Riddley and Adam Driver trained pretty extensively in sword fighting (well, movie sword fighting).

This is pretty cool ...

Thanks for that Marc.

I thought the Throne room scene was the best action sequence of the movie. I think I would have enjoyed it more if I wasn't still annoyed that they just killed off Snoke in a predictable manner (it was easy to anticipate when you are told there are twists in the movie).

Isn't that a microcosm of the problem of the whole film? Twists that actually aren't twists but predictable 180s. Rey parents are no nobodies instead of someone important. Snoke isn't the main villain instead its Kylo Ren. Luke doesn't really train Rey to be a Jedi instead she's supposed to chart her own path or something. Kylo Ren isn't redeemed but instead takes over the First Order.

Did those twists really surprise anyone? I guess they did. Honestly, going into this film I just assumed that the plot would either play things straight or just do the opposite and thats what happened.

Sort of wish they did something really shocking and had Rey join the First Order or something. Wouldn't make a lot of sense but it would be interesting.


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DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Delightful wrote:

Um...

Can we talk about Star Wars again?

That was fun.

Was it though?

I was for me and others I assume.

If it wasn't for you, you could always just leave and go to another forum where you can a happier time.


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Um...

Can we talk about Star Wars again?

That was fun.


Bill Dunn wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:

As I said before the entire keep Poe out of the loop part of the plan wasent great but the really condesending way she talks to Poe in there first encounter is probably what made it really bad. I mean its one thing not to tell the loose canon the plan quite another when you do it in a way thats gonna make him storm off half cocked.

In any military in the world, that would be Poe's problem to deal with and his responsibility, not Admiral Holdo's. I understand the willingness to give him the benefit of being a hero protagonist, but the point of the story is to break down Poe's loose cannoning by presenting him with the consequences of his insubordination so that he can rebuild himself as a better and more mindful leader.

Agreed. That arc has a lot of potential. I just wish they executed it better.

The more I think about it the more this movie reminds me of Batman v Superman. It's nowhere near as bad as B v S but it has the same problem of having a lot of interesting themes and ideas, but ultimately bad execution.


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Zhangar wrote:


I imagine the actress did the best she could with a bad role, but she got a bad role.

Laura Dern is a great actor and probably would have made Holdo a fan favorite if her character wasn't badly written.

I hate to say this yet again, but I really think its a shame that they killed her just so Poe can a leader. She could have been a replacement for Leia and the next film as the strong female leader of the Resistance with Poe as her right-hand man.

But no she gets fridged. It's made even worst by the fact that I think Holdo is supposed to be a lesbian in the books.


Skeld wrote:
Sadly, I think this thread has become useless as an avenue for discussion.

Why? Because people are arguing with each and not agreeing all the time.

That's still a discussion.


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
I think if Admiral Holdo had instead been played by Admiral Ackbar everyone would have just got on board and been “what a strategic genius”. But because Vice Admiral Amelyn Holdo is new to the audience, feminine and doesn’t acquiesce to the handsome flyboy nerds everywhere feel the need to pick apart her plan and sacrifice.

I dunno. Holdo only looks bad back because the script demands that she make convoluted decisions and sacrifices because Poe needs to learn a lesson about leadership. Really won't matter if it's her or Ackbar.

Than again, I might have been less frustrated if was Ackbar because at least than a female character won't be fridged for a male character's development.


I like Kylo Ren's line of "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to."

That to me embodies what the sequel trilogy seems to be trying to do but constantly getting cold feet over and going back to well. Repeating iconic scenes and themes from the originals except with some minor "twists".


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My God, when Leia was floating like that I seriously thought I was hallucinating. I had to quickly scan the rest of the audience just to make sure they were seeing what I was.


I think spoilers are unnecessary now Kirth Gersen.


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Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Delightful wrote:

Does anyone think the film would have been more interesting or exciting if the New Republic was still around on some level and the battle between the First Order and the Resistance was a bit more evenly matched?

I don't like the prequels but they at least managed to convince me that an intergalactic war was going on.

The whole resource-starved underdogs vs all powerful empire is starting to get stale in my opinion.

I'd heartily approve for one. I honestly liked the premise that TFA implied with the First Order being a bunch of insane clowns in the space boonies who had exactly one Star Destroyer and Starkiller Base as the sum total of their big assets (also explaining why they had to invest in shields for their TIES since they can't do the old Imperial TIE Swarm on account of manpower issues).

For all TLJ's talk about killing the past, the movie ended up with the exact same core premise as the original trilogy which is beyond lazy.

That's basically the fundamental problem of the sequel trilogy. They have good characters but premises and plots that are stale.


Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Delightful wrote:


I really do wish that the First Order actually suffered consequences from their mothership getting destroyed and their leader killed, but instead they just keep moving on to kill our heroes as if nothing ever happened.

Starkiller Base getting destroyed. Doesn't matter.
The supership that destroyed the original rebel base getting blown up itself. Doesn't matter.
The Supremacy getting blown up? Doesn't really matter except for the tracker getting destroyed, but I guess they can always build another one.

The First Order really needs a nerf.

Don't forget the timescale of all this. In between TFA ending and TLJ starting (which is basically a few hours at best), The First Order has conquered the Republic off-screen, located the secret base of the Resistance, mobilized a Star Destroyer battlegroup, and effortlessly mopped them up. Also their R&D department has designed and produced better Star Destroyers, AT-ATs, TIEs, and a better Death Star. Also they gained the power to just write out the Republic's standing navy (that or the Republic scrapped every ship that the Resistance didn't steal for some reason).

Honestly, if I was some random citizen, I'd just shrug my shoulders and declare that the Dark Side and galactic facism just works. I mean geez, at some point you need to just realize that evil gets results and good is dumb.

This is a quote from someone talking about the political landscape of Star Wars being chaotic to say the least.

"The title “Star Wars” is no lie. Someone born during the Separatist Crisis would be in their sixties by the time of Hosnian Prime’s destruction. In his life, he would have seen the fall of three galactic governments, and the total decapitation of two by outside hostiles. The Star Wars galaxy has political stability comparable with the Middle East."


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Does anyone think the film would have been more interesting or exciting if the New Republic was still around on some level and the battle between the First Order and the Resistance was a bit more evenly matched?

I don't like the prequels but they at least managed to convince me that an intergalactic war was going on.

The whole resource-starved underdogs vs all powerful empire is starting to get stale in my opinion.


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Rysky wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Rysky wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:


So the problem with Finns attempted sacrifice was that he wasn't saving Rey? Everyone else in the cave can just get slaughtered?
Dafuq?

*backfoot headscratch*

Finn loves Rey. She's kind of his sole motivation for.. well. Everything since escaping the first order.

If you die to protect what you love, that's okay.

So if Finn died to protect Rey, that would have been alright, but dying to protect everyone in the cave (or at least buy more time for help to arrive) isn't the right thing to do because....?

He wasn’t dying to protect Rey though, he was dying to hopefully buy the Resistance some time... which his death wouldn’t have done.

But doesn't that sound exactly like what Holdo did?

I really do wish that the First Order actually suffered consequences from their mothership getting destroyed and their leader killed, but instead they just keep moving on to kill our heroes as if nothing ever happened.

Starkiller Base getting destroyed. Doesn't matter.
The supership that destroyed the original rebel base getting blown up itself. Doesn't matter.
The Supremacy getting blown up? Doesn't really matter except for the tracker getting destroyed, but I guess they can always build another one.

The First Order really needs a nerf.


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Isn't there not being an autopilot or a droid capable of piloting the ship just a contrivance of the plot, so that Holdo can nobly die (read: get fridged for the sake of a male character's arc) and Poe can get the mantle of leadership?

When I think about it that way everything kind of makes sense. Poe needs to become the leader of the Resistance by the end of this film, and thus Holdo must die regardless of the narrative hammering in that noble sacrifices are dumb and that strong, experienced leaders are needed.


Rysky wrote:
Delightful wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Rysky wrote:
She’s part of the Resistance, she sacrificed herself to save what was left of it. She’s a hero.

A dead hero. Which is exactly what the Resistance doesn't need at the present time (see also Leia's comments about losing all their bombers and a fair chunk of their interceptors to the Dread).

Her nobly going down with the ship is romantic and heroic I guess, but it's also dumb and counter to the big picture of what the Resistance needs. And it's not like you can say this is just nerds being overly critical and armchair admiraling. The movie said more or less the same thing at the start of the movie.

At the start when the Reistance didn’t number in a single dozen and a half. At the end the Resistance needs people, period.

Holdo sacrificing herself wasn’t a choice between leader and hero, it was a choice to save as many of the Resistance as she could. A dead hero vs a leader with nothing but dead heroes.

So Rose is an idiot and Finn should have tried to save what little of the Resistance was left by sacrificing himself. Ok...
I honestly have no idea how you got that from anything I wrote.

Oh, sorry about that. I misread your comment. Just edited with last comment with more explanation and I think a better reading if what your talking about.


Rysky wrote:
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
Rysky wrote:
She’s part of the Resistance, she sacrificed herself to save what was left of it. She’s a hero.

A dead hero. Which is exactly what the Resistance doesn't need at the present time (see also Leia's comments about losing all their bombers and a fair chunk of their interceptors to the Dread).

Her nobly going down with the ship is romantic and heroic I guess, but it's also dumb and counter to the big picture of what the Resistance needs. And it's not like you can say this is just nerds being overly critical and armchair admiraling. The movie said more or less the same thing at the start of the movie.

At the start when the Reistance didn’t number in a single dozen and a half. At the end the Resistance needs people, period.

Holdo sacrificing herself wasn’t a choice between leader and hero, it was a choice to save as many of the Resistance as she could. A dead hero vs a leader with nothing but dead heroes.

So Rose is an idiot and Finn should have tried to save what little of the Resistance was left by sacrificing himself. Ok...

I get that the numbers changed at some point but themes need to be consistent, right? You can't just say that sacrificing yourself is bad than say it's fine under these circumstances but later on say it's bad again. It's gives the audience mixed messages and is hampered by the fact that the First Order doesn't seem to actual suffer that much when heroic sacrifices are made in almost any situation.

I hope that made sense to you Rysky. I don't want this discussion to go toxic.


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Rysky wrote:

“Protecting what you love” is the point.

That’s what Holdo did. Finn just wasn’t going to accomplish that if he did sacrifice himself.

Finn was trying to protect the Resistance, a group that had grown to love. Sure he hated the First Order too but those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive, right?

Also, Holdo's sacrifice was just as useless as Finn's probably would have been. Even with the Supremacy gone, the overpowered First Order still has a bunch of landwalkers and a Death Star cannon. Her death barely made a difference. Just like those bombers barely made a difference at the beginning. Holdo should have stayed with the Resistance and been a leader that kept the spirit of the Resistance alive with her decades of experience and wisdom.


Rysky wrote:
She’s part of the Resistance, she sacrificed herself to save what was left of it. She’s a hero.

Didn't Leia say that the Resistance is already full of heroes but really needs leaders like Holdo?


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Rysky wrote:
“Well I’m in charge and important and this is a suicide mission so I need someone who I think is less important to sacrifice themselves in my place” said no one with a soul ever.

I thought the whole point of Holdo was that heroic sacrifices are dumb and that people like her need to stay alive for the Resistance?

Instead she sacrifices herself which is something that Rose was angry about Finn almost doing. Kind of thematic whiplash. The message of staying alive to fight another day would have been stronger if Holdo actually stayed alive and let some kind of autopilot destroy the Supremacy.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Delightful wrote:
Can't we dislike Poe and Holdo both for withholding information from each other?

Sure. I absolutely agree that Holdo shouldn't have left a hotshot sitting around with nothing to do but come up with bad ideas. Maybe she should have told him the plan, and set him on getting the transports ready.

But would "Poe helps the Resistance quietly slip away and hide from the First Order" been a meaningful story to tell alongside Rey and Luke meeting and working out a master/student relationship? I mean, Finn would have been about just as useless as he was in the actual film, so no change there?

Honestly as much as I like Finn and Poe, the Last Jedi would have been a better film if their stories (diversions really) were completely cut and more time was given to Rey's training.

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