Mashallah's page

Last question before I head out. Thanks for the quick answers! It is clear you believe the Operative is superior to the Envoy. How would you address the issue so the Operative wouldn't step on the Envoy's niche at a table? I have a player with an early copy who's excited to play the Envoy. If the Operative and Envoy at my table split their focus on different skill sets, would they both shine in their departments in the end?

Thanks for everything by the way. Your thread open plenty of discussion among my group about how we plan to address things when we start our first game.

In terms of "how to play this in a cooperative manner", my suggestion would be for the Operative to build around using more specialised Debilitating Tricks such as Staggering Shot instead of Flat-Footed so as to not step toes on the Envoy's combat buffs. The idea about skills is also a good one - as the Envoy already covers the Face role well, Operative can simply shine in other skills.

Another question! How easy do you think it will be for characters to fill out different roles on a Starship? Do classes seem restricted to certain roles or can anyone with a bit of fine tuning end up in the role they like? Thanks!

You basically just need to have a certain skill high to fill a role, meaning anyone can do any role.

Mashallah wrote:

Healer Mystics can also take damage to heal allies an equal amount - this doesn't take any action and can be done at-will.

If I recall correctly, that class feature is once a day, right?

As far as I can tell, it can be done once each turn.

Mashallah wrote:

To break away from this nonsense, let's do this: ask me anything about magic/spells. I'll look through the relevant chapters for the answer.

I noticed there are not different sources of magic, are there different schools?

How prevalent are curative magics?

I already answered about curative magics, but different schools exist.

As for non-class options, Healing Serums (equivalent of Healing Potions) are mass-produced, widely available, and extremely cheap.
I expect to see them used en masse.

Hey Masha! Softer question: how is healing in Starfinder?

There are multiple options.

Oh, I just found something similar to the old Summon X spells - Battle Junkbot. It lets you literally transform a pile of junk into a walking murder robot.

To break away from this nonsense, let's do this: ask me anything about magic/spells. I'll look through the relevant chapters for the answer.

Ventnor wrote:

Can Solarions make 2 solar weapons at some point, or are the only limited to 1?

My question appears to have been lost in the hubbub, so I'll ask it again.

Only one at a time.

Mashallah wrote:

Expanding a bit on Operative, math edition:

The bonuses you get to skills as long as you aren't Thief or Daredevil (both of which get screwed for no apparent reasons) are absolutely mindblowing.
Here's a level 1 Ghost Operative who didn't invest anything into Stealth and just has 16 DEX:
First of all, you get +3 to Stealth from Dexterity. Nothing surprising here yet.
Then, you get your class level to ranks in Stealth and it's a class skill, so you're at +7 now.
Then, you get free Skill Focus, and you're already at +10.
Then, you remember Operative gives +1 to all skills at level 11. Wow, +11 without any investment other than having 16 DEX.
Then you try to Trick Attack and remember you have +4 to Stealth on Trick Attacks. Suddenly, you're looking at +15. And thus, with 0 investment other than just having 16 DEX, you hit the DC 21 (to trick attack a CR 1 monster) on a roll of 6.

There is 1 more investment, while minor. You have to put a skill point into the Stealth skill.

You get that skill point in Stealth for free by being a Ghost Operative. It's not even a choice - just handed to you as a class feature.

Bringing Path of War stuff into this discussion isn't helpful.

If you insist on 1pp references only, the most fun I ever had playing Pathfinder was as a high level Shadowcasting specialist, where I could spontaneously access the entire Evocation/Conjuration spell lists and did so to the fullest possible extent, finding the most appropriate spell to emulate in most situations, even often willingly failing saving throws against my own spells whenever it was more beneficial or doing creative tricks like Shadow Evoking Deeper Darkness and helping my entire party disbelieve it to get more versatility mileage out of the Shadow spell chain. Options definitely aren't something that intimidates me. Especially the very few Swashbuckler gets.

Can you use a Melee weapon and Solarian weapon at the same time? Like have a Katana covered in a Solar blade?

If I understand your question correctly: you can have a Solar Weapon in one hand and another weapon in another hand. You can't use Solar Weapon to augment an existing weapon.

Mashallah wrote:

Swashbuckler is a trap because every single archetype for other classes that poaches Opportune Parry & Riposte (as a quick example, the Virtuous Bravo) is strictly better than Swashbuckler itself.

Swashbuckler has truly awful action economy where every single class features drains your swift actions, making them unusable together, and not a single redeeming feature compensating for it.

Once again, you are presenting your own personal impression as objective truth.

Mashallah wrote:

Moreover, instead of ever buffing or trying to fix Swashbuckler to give actual reasons to play as one, Paizo is just constantly nerfing similar options that completely invalidate it, such as the Daring Champion Cavalier.

And maybe I just wat to play a swashbuckler archetype (in the traditional non-rules sense of the word), and not a cavalier/paladin/gunslinger/whatever who can also parry and riposte. Maybe I even like precise strike. But possibly I'm doing it all wrong having fun playing this?

Well, maybe a class is really useless if at level 20 it can't solo one-shot demon lords before they even get a turn, but who cares?

You are missing my point entirely. It is entirely possible that you can have fun as playing the class, sure. Your own experience even tells as much.

Mashallah wrote:

Cyrad wrote:

Mashallah wrote:

Cyrad wrote:

How easy is it to be an unarmed combat specialist?

Does the technomancer get cool abilities to control tech? I hoped they be like technomancers from Shadowrun.

Vesk with Improved Unarmed Strike get some decent damage, though they seem to lag behind armed options at higher levels without other boosts.

I think unarmed combat can work with Armour Storm Soldier, but I haven't crunched the numbers on whether you'll lag behind armed options in that case.

I see. What about power gauntlets or something? I'm interested a playing a monk that breaks tech with his mind and punches people

Powered Gauntlets are represented by Battlegloves, but there are very few of those published, and they are simple weapons, meaning they have relatively poor scaling.

in that case do the mages get good abilities for buffing weapons?

Technomancer gets several abilities that significantly buff weapons.

Mashallah wrote:

Fully agreed. I feel like most of the arguing in this thread stems from people not understanding this.

Or maybe some people don't understand that the game is about more than just numbers and math. It's not Diablo. I think it's not unreasonable to assume that, for most people, the game is primarily about role-playing and having fun. And no amount of armchair data analysis can factor that in.

I know you're going to say "but how can I have fun if my character is mechanically crippled etc etc". Well, you said earlier, for example, that the "entirety of the swashbuckler class" was a "trap" and its existence could only be explained by "malice or incompetence" on the side of the designers. Aside from the fact, once again, that this is highly disrespectful, it also entirely your own impression, even if you present it as an objective fact.

For my part, I've been playing a swashbuckler for 11 levels now in our Hell's Rebels campaign, and I'm having a lot of fun playing the character, and that means both role-playing and the mechanics. I don't feel underpowered at all.

Swashbuckler is a trap because every single archetype for other classes that poaches Opportune Parry & Riposte (as a quick example, the Virtuous Bravo) is strictly better than Swashbuckler itself.

Mashallah wrote:

Cyrad wrote:

How easy is it to be an unarmed combat specialist?

Does the technomancer get cool abilities to control tech? I hoped they be like technomancers from Shadowrun.

Vesk with Improved Unarmed Strike get some decent damage, though they seem to lag behind armed options at higher levels without other boosts.

I think unarmed combat can work with Armour Storm Soldier, but I haven't crunched the numbers on whether you'll lag behind armed options in that case.

I see. What about power gauntlets or something? I'm interested a playing a monk that breaks tech with his mind and punches people

Powered Gauntlets are represented by Battlegloves, but there are very few of those published, and they are simple weapons, meaning they have relatively poor scaling.

Mashallah wrote:

Higher levels of the Fear spell seem to be "press button to end encounter" if enemies are not immune to fear, or useless otherwise.

Not a fan.

It looks to me as if the 4th level version of fear (which is the highest) is basically identical to the fear spell in Pathfinder, which doesn't strike me as "press button to end encounter".

Also, this is available from 10th level. Just to put this in scope, the Adventure Path is over at level 12.

I wasn't a fan of the Pathfinder Fear spell either. I hoped things like it won't be in.

The Interfering Shot talent for Operatives is... pointless - it doesn't do anything.
The effect is that it prevents the target from taking reactions if you choose it to be the effect of your debilitating trick (you have to choose - can't combine with something else). However, the flat-footed condition already explicitly prevents creatures from taking reactions, and you get the ability to apply the flat-footed condition out of the box two levels earlier than you can take Interfering Shot.
Interfering Shot is a strict downgrade from what you can do two levels earlier without it.
This seems like an oversight.

One thing that annoys me a lot is that the naming pattern for weapons is woefully inconsistent.
A Tactical Doshko costs 240 credits and is a level 1 weapon.
A Tactical Knife costs 6000 credits and is a level 7 weapon.

Speaking of unarmed combat, one missed opportunity is that I don't see any way to treat unarmed strikes as an operative weapon.
It would be pretty cool if you could play a pressure point monk as an Operative, but alas.

How easy is it to be an unarmed combat specialist?

Does the technomancer get cool abilities to control tech? I hoped they be like technomancers from Shadowrun.

Vesk with Improved Unarmed Strike get some decent damage, though they seem to lag behind armed options at higher levels without other boosts.

Mashallah wrote:

Brew Bird wrote:

Mashallah wrote:

Hmm, I just noticed - I'm not sure Solar Weapon Solarians can benefit from Weapon Fusions - the rules are exceedingly unclear on the matter.

If they truly can't benefit from them, that would be another drawback to using Solar Weapon, as some Weapon Fusions are very advantageous in certain situations while being very cheap.

Well, weapon crystals are listed as a type of weapon. As far as I can tell, there should be nothing stopping you as written from putting fusions on them.

I just feel uncertain because the Crystals are more of a weapon upgrade than a weapon and isn't directly used as a weapon, instead just being inserted into your mote to grant extra damage to your Solar Weapon, making this a bit of a vague situation and feels like grey RAW. I'd like to hear dev commentary on this.

Why not just attach the fusion to the mote itself? Isn't that why it exists, rather than having the powers manifest out of nowhere?

The wording is unclear.

So I have no idea what the math behind the game is, or if one option is better than another, or if this even IS a problem Starfinder has, but I've noticed a trend in this thread I'd like to weigh in on.

Game balance IS IMPORTANT. I understand people like the game. It has a cool flavor, the classes are interesting and unique, and the fluff behind those classes is important. The mechanics behind them are important too. I see others comment with things like "as long as it's not completely and utterly useless in combat, that's good enough for me, as long as the fluff is cool." What an incredibly low bar to set for the developers. Quite frankly it's nearly apologist.

A commoner is useful in combat. Not nearly as much as any PC class, but it's always better than nothing. Nobody (or at least very few people) wants to play the commoner. It FEELS BAD to be that weak compared to the rest of the party. If a cursory reading of material (again I'm not saying this is the case, but from the opinions of people who seem to have read the book it might be) shows large power discrepancies between classes, that's a serious problem. It should take serious number crunching to find power differences, and they should be small. Balance does not mean exactly even power, but it does mean close.

Game balance is a very difficult thing, and I don't envy anyone whose job it is. It is, however, necessary for a good game. Paizo has in the past done very poorly with game balance. It has also proven it can do very well with it. I think we do a disservice to not only ourselves as consumers, but to Paizo as a company, if we do not hold them to that standard of excellence we have seen from them in the past.

Just my two cents.

/rant

Fully agreed. I feel like most of the arguing in this thread stems from people not understanding this.

Ikiry0 wrote:

captain yesterday wrote:

And the funny thing about numbers, you can simulate a million super bowls, but you still gotta run out that tunnel and play the game. :-)

Personally running the game is useful for identifying issues, yes. However, once you have found an issue is is data analysis that will allow you to identify what is wrong. A run game is a single data point, not the be all and end of all analysis.

That analogy also falls flat with the fact there is a massive industry for simulating, predicting and analysing what happened in various sports events. Most of those people have not played the sport. I would also question the use of 'You have not run a game yet' in a First Impressions thread. That would defeat the point of it being first impressions.

It's a pretty big data point, just ask the 19-0 Patriots. :-)

And it's absolutely relevant to ask if you've played it in a first impressions thread. :-)

I'm just asking questions. :-)

Technically, this is an early impressions thread, not a first impressions thread. :P

Mashallah wrote:

Hmm, I just noticed - I'm not sure Solar Weapon Solarians can benefit from Weapon Fusions - the rules are exceedingly unclear on the matter.

If they truly can't benefit from them, that would be another drawback to using Solar Weapon, as some Weapon Fusions are very advantageous in certain situations while being very cheap.

Well, weapon crystals are listed as a type of weapon. As far as I can tell, there should be nothing stopping you as written from putting fusions on them.

I just feel uncertain because the Crystals are more of a weapon upgrade than a weapon and isn't directly used as a weapon, instead just being inserted into your mote to grant extra damage to your Solar Weapon, making this a bit of a vague situation and feels like grey RAW. I'd like to hear dev commentary on this.

Mashallah wrote:

To clarify why I'm completely blown away by Overlord Mystic:

At level 1, it gets an ability that says pretty much "when you mind control people, even by means such as dominate, they don't realise they have been mind controlled and believe all their actions were of their own free will".
That is insanely powerful and is almost worth being a capstone alone.
No other level 1 ability of any class comes even close in power to that monstrosity as far as I can tell.

That's really not what it says. It says when a mind-control effect ends, the target forgets they were mind controlled, but still remembers doing whatever it was you made them do.

Some are going to put two and two together and realize they were under the influence of another power. Exactly how they deal with their confusing memories is going to vary from person to person. It's definitely powerful, but I think you're misrepresenting it a bit.

The ability can be interpreted in multiple ways, yes.

Hmm, I just noticed - I'm not sure Solar Weapon Solarians can benefit from Weapon Fusions - the rules are exceedingly unclear on the matter.
If they truly can't benefit from them, that would be another drawback to using Solar Weapon, as some Weapon Fusions are very advantageous in certain situations while being very cheap.

I could easily see Wis/Cha Mystic build around Charming everyone around and forcing them to do stuff by winning Charisma checks.

To clarify why I'm completely blown away by Overlord Mystic:
At level 1, it gets an ability that says pretty much "when you mind control people, even by means such as dominate, they don't realise they have been mind controlled and believe all their actions were of their own free will".
That is insanely powerful and is almost worth being a capstone alone.
No other level 1 ability of any class comes even close in power to that monstrosity as far as I can tell.

Other then mention of the Overlord bending reality I have seen almost no mention of the Mystic. Are they just healbot ver 2.0? Pathfinder Clerics with different names for the abilities and less reliance on charisma?

They're far from healbots, overlord is just the most impressive by far. As another example mentioned earlier, mindkiller mystic gets at-will phantasmal killer.

Can you still 5-foot step to position yourself out of AoO range in starfinder?

5 foot step is now called Guarded Step and it's a move action instead of a free action.

How?

I believe Variel gave the best case scenario numbers for Command Undead and hordes of unintelligent undead when he told me that. It's a bit white-room, yeah.

Which magic hack acts like a spellstrike?

Spellshot at level 8 lets you cast spells through ranged weapon attacks.

Oh wow... I just now noticed disintegrate.
This is the first time I ever see a tabletop use d20's for damage. Impressive.

Higher levels of the Fear spell seem to be "press button to end encounter" if enemies are not immune to fear, or useless otherwise.
Not a fan.

Logic Bomb seems to be the Starfinder version of Explosive Runes.
I love the fluff on it and it got a MUCH needed fix - in Pathfinder, you could use Explosive Runes offensively for billions of free damage, and now this loophole is closed.

I'm out of this discussion. Without a copy of my own and the desire to spend the time referencing every little thing.

Though you have some good points throughout Mashallah, you seem more interested in nitpicking this book apart. I don't even remember the last positive thing you've written about this book (that wasn't admitting that you misunderstood). And when that is your goal it makes this less of a discussion and more of a debate. Of which serves little purpose at this point (or likely in the future).

A shout out to Mark Seifter for defending Starfinder from the hailstorm of this thread for 10 pages now. I'm excited for Starfinder and thank you for everything that you do.

Right on this page I praised the Haste spell and said that I like the nerfs to Planar Binding. You don't even need to look at previous pages.

Mashallah wrote:

But really my problem is more this:

Even in current Pathfinder, with all of the myriads of options to trick out blasting, it's the least effective form of spellcasting. Starfinder then makes blasting even weaker than in core-only Pathfinder.
I don't get it.

The only response that I can think of to try to explain why as I think I understand it is that Starfinder isn't Pathfinder. It is enough of a different system that they have chosen to try and change the universe such that magic doesn't completely rule it. As a predominantly caster oriented player I find it refreshing.

All the way back casters dominated mid to late game because they could change realty with just one action. With one Word they could kill swathes of people.

My impression of magic in this new system is that they envision a different universe. A universe where skills can outweigh magic sometimes if not regularly. Where magic can't get you anything you could ever want. I mean, if they have a new system with the introduction of technology but magic is still leagues better than the technology, what was the point in introducing technology?

Magic seems to be still just as powerful, in some things even more than before. I don't see an overall nerf of magic, even though a few select things (like Planar Binding) got curbed.

Planar Binding got a well-deserved nerf. This is good.

I really wish the book sorted spells by level instead of alphabetically.
It's hard to look through them right now.

But really my problem is more this:
Even in current Pathfinder, with all of the myriads of options to trick out blasting, it's the least effective form of spellcasting. Starfinder then makes blasting even weaker than in core-only Pathfinder.
I don't get it.

And even then, Draconic Bloodline existed in the CRB and allowed you to significantly improve blasting.

Mashallah wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Generally, damage spells have actually been buffed; you do the max damage right away when the spell is your top level spell instead of needing to wait until later for the full damage (which led to situations in Pathfinder where both your fireball and your cone of cold do 9d6 right when you get cone of cold). Damage being up is why people have been so impressed with supercharge weapon in other threads.

Right now, the Fireball-equivalent (Explosive Blast) deals 9d6 damage, never gets better, no way to make it better.

A Pathfinder Fireball could realistically be tricked out to deal (14d6+42)*1.5 by Level 10 (a build I actually posted in DPR Olympics once).
The difference is quite staggering.

Could you do that with the core rulebook? The fact that you don't have as many options from a system with one book as you did with one that has dozens doesn't mean things are weaker in this game, it just means that it hasn't been around as long.

No caster level scaling means no space for feats like intensified spell, which are necessary for blasting.

Stuff on blasting

I have submitted blasting builds to DPR Olympics. I'm fully aware how damaging it can be. That doesn't change the fact it's still the least effective thing you can do as a spellcaster.

To clarify: the (14d6+42)*1.5 would still use 3rd level spell slots for the Fireball, not any higher.

Generally, damage spells have actually been buffed; you do the max damage right away when the spell is your top level spell instead of needing to wait until later for the full damage (which led to situations in Pathfinder where both your fireball and your cone of cold do 9d6 right when you get cone of cold). Damage being up is why people have been so impressed with supercharge weapon in other threads.

Right now, the Fireball-equivalent (Explosive Blast) deals 9d6 damage, never gets better, no way to make it better.

I don't like the way blasting spells are handled.
As far as I can tell, blasting has been nerfed compared to Pathfinder. Why? I just can't comprehend any reason for this. Blasting has already been the weakest style of spellcasting in Pathfinder, nerfing it further is just ridiculous.
And by nerfing I mean that blasting is now the only form of spellcasting that doesn't scale - other spells get stuff like increased duration or whatever from increased caster level, but the equivalent of Fireball simply doesn't scale on caster level at all.

I really like how Haste effectively lets you full attack as a standard action. It gives all the martial classes quite a bit of action economy surplus.

Multiple developers can have multiple viewpoints on that, though.

Yeah but when one chapter says you add DEX to damage with operative weapons while another chapter says you don't and one chapter says you add STR to attack with thrown weapons while another chapter says you add DEX to attack with thrown weapons, what do you even do?

There's an unpleasantly large amount of contradictions in the book.
One chapter says X, another chapter says Y, a third chapter says Z, all on the same subject.
It's annoying to try to understand how the rules work when the book says different things wherever you look.

Aratrok wrote:

I have lots of things I like, and lots of things I'm disappointed about, but the thing that sticks out most that I haven't seen anyone else mention much is this:

This game expects you to track each and every bullet and fraction of a battery you go through during your career, and do accounting for recharging and purchasing them. That is insane, partially because it's extremely annoying and wastes a lot of time from a gameplay stand point and partially because most sci-fi settings (i.e. Mass Effect) treat those details as utterly irrelevant with really easy justification, which tells me that Starfinder's developers enjoy and expect everyone else to enjoy tracking every last round in every last magazine.

Most groups I've played Pathfinder with hate needing to track arrows, and their costs were insignificant- now the costs are pretty hugely relevant for most of the game, and you can't easily ignore them.

I've never disliked tracking ammo. I *do* dislike tracking treasure. No one wants a pile of 3-50gp gem stones and paintings. :/

I think shortages of supplies are very much a scifi trope. Food is usually the big one, probably ship parts coming up second, but tracking ammo feels similar to me.

The will be no shortage of food. Clear spindle ioun stones, the ones which remove the need for food and water, are dirt cheap now and a level 1 character can afford buying four of them at game start.