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Offhand, with minionmancy banned, I'd probably look at hybrid spells that combine multiple effects, like blast spells that also control (e.g. Obsidian Flow).

Since some D&D 3.5 content is on the table, did you check with your GM about the Zombie Dragon template? That would keep the breath weapon along with its extraordinary special qualities.

What about the Awaken Undead spell? That would get back extraordinary abilities that were lost by turning it into another form of undead.

Taking the fact that Alkenstar canonically massively limits its exports in order to create artificial scarcity aside for a moment, there's a logistical issue in equipping a fleet with a decent number of level 5+ PC-classed characters per ship compared with acquiring cannons.

A 6000 gp cannon costs 600 gp in raw materials and 6 days for a character with the Gunsmithing feat to make, and that character can be level 1. Outfitting a ship with a complement of 8 cannons (3 per side, 1 fore, 1 aft), would cost 4800 gp in raw materials and take 48 days or about a month and a half if you only had one such person making cannons. Compared with the time it takes to make the ship in the first place, that's not too bad at all.

Training a first level Wizard or Sorcerer can take years initially, and it can be extremely variable how long it would take to level them up to 5th level.

From a player character perspective, the closest you can get to creating a 5th level NPC is combining Downtime's Rooms and Teams subsystem to hire/create/train up a team of Craftspeople (4th level Experts) and then use the Retraining rules to take 12 days and a bunch of gold per member of that team to convert those levels in Expert into levels in whatever PC class you desired.

Though that's more than a little kludgey.

Just level them up at times that are significant but not significant enough to be milestones if they are not at the level cap for being a cohort.

It shouldn't need to happen more than 2-3 times per campaign in order to catch up in most cases.

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Blue_Sky wrote:

So...ahem...this gnome has a different perspective. If not for gnomes, you wouldn't have catapult trajectory systems that can transport cargo and civilians not only horizontally, but vertically, too! Sure, dwarves can make weapons of war, but Gnomes take everything the dwarves made and improved on it.

Let me point out to you the wonderful specimen that is the Gnome Hooked Hammer, a pick AND a hammer! Or the Gnome Pincher! Dwarf dropped his crowbar? Oh well. A Gnome Pincher can grab it from five feet away!

Therefore, Gnomes are better.

Now, how do we go about min/maxing the crafting heck out of this gnome?

Well, there are two things that aid with crafting.

1. Increasing (effective) wealth through things like acquiring funds or converting money into Magic Capital. So you can craft more expensive things.

2. Increasing crafting speed. So you can craft more things in the same span of time.

Intelligent Constructs offer ways to do both, although without rolling back or disregarding the FAQ forbidding Spell-Like Abiltiies from being used to qualify for crafting feats, they will be limited to using Master Craftsman in order to qualify for Craft Wondrous Item and/or Craft Magic Arms and Armor in order to grab Cooperative Crafting.

1 such assistant should double progress and stacks to become a multiplier equal to 1 + the number of assistants. So a Valet Familiar and an assitant mean 3x crafting speed. Effectively, if you can make the accelerated crafting check, each assistant adds 2000 gp of progress per day. If you can't, then they add 1000 gp of progress per day until the stacking, untyped +2 bonus they give allows you to make the check for accelerated crafting.

Options for making your own crafting assistants:
Three main ones come to mind.

1. Soulbound Mannequins

2. the Trompe l'Oeil template

3. Wax Golems

Soulbound Mannequins have 10 HD by default and are intelligent. They have 4 feats by default, allowing them to take Master Craftsman, Cooperative Crafting, and both Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Armor.

They can be increased to 15 HD during their creation without increasing their size category to Large, which would net them 3 additional feats which could be used to fuel money-making ventures or other functions.

(If you really wanted to, you could also, technically, use HD Modification to add half again the HD after it is constructed, bringing it up to a total of 22 HD maximum, but there would be little reason to do so most likely)

Soulbound Mannequins do have the downside of requiring someone to die in order to make them, but things like Breath of Life or Temporary Resurrection + Breath of Life can avoid or severely reduce the cost of restoring people to life.

They're 8500 gp for the base 10 HD version, 12,500 gp for the 15 HD version.

(You can reduce that 500 gp component to 166.66 gp by using mundane crafting or Fabricate for the mask. This could be further reduced to 86.66 gp by using 8 Goods Capital. The 8000 gp component can become 4000 gp using 80 Magic Capital, the 12,000 gp component can become 6000 gp using 120 Magic Capital.)

Trompe l'Oeil can literally be copies of the Wizard themselves or even go to the heights of the Painter Wizard. They're also pretty cheap at 500 gp per HD, especially if you focus on making Tiny or Small sized assistants. A level 9 Wizard assistant with Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Construct, and Cooperative Crafting would cost 4500 gp to make before taking Size into account, and even making it Medium would only bump it up to 6500 gp.

(Magic Capital will effectively make them 5 Magic Capital or 250 gp per HD. Goods Capital will reduce the cost of the painting component, though it would take, at minimum 25 Goods Capital for a Tiny one, 50 for a Small one, and 100 Goods Capital for a Medium one.)

Trompe l'Oeil are also fairly likely to be banned at any given table, or severely curtailed if they are allowed.

Wax Golems are the least reliable method, between uncertainty about whether they can still be controlled and the random chance involved in whether they become sapient, but they do explicitly gain class levels along with the ability to gain more of them.

It costs 7000 gp to make the baseline version, 6500 of which can be halved with 65 Magic Capital and 500 of which may or may not be handled with either Goods Capital or Magic Capital.


In addition to being able to make constructs that have Cooperative Crafting, you can also just use Downtime to hire level 3 Wizards, Clerics, etc. for a set fee and then, worst case scenario, you can use Retraining to give them Craft Wondrous Item + Cooperative Crafting.

Using Constructs to make money:

The Gunsmithing feat would be a prime candidate for making money, producing a net profit of 400 gp per day by using 100 gp of raw materials to produce 1000 gp of ammunition or gunpowder and selling it for 500 gp. So that would take them 25 days to produce the money necessary to craft a Portable Hole. An advantage of this feat is that any intelligent creature can take this feat and it isn't dependent on how intelligent they are or how many ranks in Craft they have. A disadvantage is that there's very little that can be done to increase the daily profit directly.

(A character; probably another party member, a cohort, or a Trompe l'Oeil; with the Duskwalker Agent trait could boost that to a daily profit of 460 gp by increasing the sale price to 550 and reducing the cost of the raw materials to 90 gp.)

The Master Alchemist feat would be another option, especially combined with boosting the construct's intelligence and the Signature Skill feat, provided the construct has 5 or 15 ranks in Craft Alchemy.

The Focused Worker and then Focused Overseer feats if the Downtime system is on the table. Being able to purchase Magic Capital for the same cost as earning it effectively halves the cost of making a magic item, or a mundane item when it comes to Goods Capital. It is limited by the size of the settlement how much Capital can be purchased in one day, so it could add several days of preparation time to the time it takes to create expensive magic items.

The Additional Traits feat and using it to grab one of the magic item cost reduction traits (Eldritch Smith, Hedge Magician, or Spark of Creation) could be a way to have the construct craft magic items that are then sold for a profit, especially if paired with using Magic Capital.

As for Constructs to make to make money with, Soulbound Dolls are one of the least expensive intelligent Constructs. There's even suggestions in the original version for them of ways to make them without having to kill people first, IIRC. Their main downside, other than potentially requiring killing someone to make them, is that the main way they can make money is the Gunsmithing feat.

They're 2300 gp, which could be reduced to as little as 1050 gp withe Magic Capital, Goods Capital, and crafting the focus item one's self using mundane crafting or Fabricate. So, even without cost-saving measures, it takes them at most 6 days to recoup the cost of their construction using Gunsmithing.

In comparison, a 1 HD, Small Trompe l'Oeil would cost 1500 gp to make without cost saving measures. This could be reduced down to 423.33 gp with 5 Magic Capital, 16 Goods Capital, and Mundane Crafting/Fabricate. So it would take between 2 and 4 days for such a construct to pay for itself using Gunsmithing.

Given the Carbauxine/Gas Forges of Riddleport, there's at least some forms of pretty advanced metallurgy. (The breathing masks used there also either represent early gas masks or part of the technology for standard diving dress.)

I wouldn't be surprised if some alchemist has already worked out their equivalent of the Bayer Process to make bauxite into alumina or using electrolysis to refine alumina into aluminium, or if not that, then the pieces for working out how to do that largely exist and just haven't been assembled just yet.

Anyone remember any canon remarks on, or appearances of, aluminum?

Steam Engines finally became a thing towards the end of 1st Edition with the Steam-Powered Construct template, if I hadn't missed them being mentioned elsewhere before then, possibly in Alkenstar, although I haven't done enough digging to work out if those are solely the province of construct and golem makers or if other applications have been developed. Even if they are still basically toys for rich eccentrics, their existence represents a possibility.
(Granted, much of what a steam engine does could have already been replicated by animated objects if someone just had the idea to try it out.)

FayetteGamer wrote:

"How likely is this to come to blows"

It will probably happen the next time the Paladin thinks it's funny to backhand the Wizard. So I'd say probably within the next 4 sessions.

So his character is physically attacking your character?

Or has this other player already been hitting you in real life?

FayetteGamer wrote:
Ryan Freire wrote:
FayetteGamer wrote:

This is an attrition campaign. New characters don't join, and killed characters aren't replaced. If the Paladin dies, The player isn't in the game until the next campaign starts (it also means if it goes wrong and I lose my character, I'm out until the next campaign).

Does that affect anyone's opinions?

It solidifies mine, don't f@!@ around, murk him in his sleep and let the player sit out and think about why he got murked in his sleep.
I don't have confidence in this character's ability to kill the Paladin in the one hit of the Coup-De-Grace. He's built as more of a tank than a damage dealer. I haven't seen his Character Sheet, but I expect his Con is about as high as my Intelligence.

Example weapons for coup de grace use:
Butchering Axes are 3d6, x3 crit weapons and deal an average of 31.5 damage on a coup de grace before taking strength modifiers into account. They cost 65 gp.

Tetsubos are 1d10, x4 crit weapons and deal an average of 22 damage before strength modifiers. They cost 20 gp.

Scythes are 2d4, x4 crit weapons and deal an average of 20 damage before strength modifiers. They cost 18 gp.

If your GM is playing Coup De Grace by RAW, then not only do you automatically hit and crit, but unless he can make a Fortitude save with a DC of 10+Damage Dealt, he just auto dies even if his hp is too high for him to be taken into negatives by the attack. So Butchering Axe is looking at DC 41-42+, Tetsubos DC 32+, Scythes DC 30+.

Power Attack should be compatible with Coup De Grace, too, IIRC.

Further, if the entire party gathers around, the number of coup de graces that could be delivered (or attacks against a helpless, prone target that's probably not fully armored) would make it extremely likely that he would just die from the automatic damage even if he passed multiple high DC fortitude saves in a row.

You also probably have enough money to hire some thugs that are at least 1st level Warriors with Power Attack. That +3 damage from 2-handed Power Attack becomes +9 or +12 to the damage as well as the save DC against instantly dying.

Bison Minion Stuff:
Going back to the Bison idea from earlier, a Bison would deal an average of 38 damage on a coup de grace, for a DC of 48. Alternatively, with Anthropomorphic Animal, it can wield weapons sized for a Large creature. That Butchering Axe becomes a 4d6 weapon and along with the Bison's default strength, that turns into 78 damage, on average, from them critting, if they use Power Attack(PA) that jumps up to 87 damage.

The Tetsubo would go from 1d10 to 2d8 and on a regular coup de grace would deal an average of 84 damage, with PA that becomes 96 damage. The Scythe would go from 2d4 to 2d6 and deal an average of 76 damage, 88 with PA.

A 5th level Paladin is only going to be able to pass a check with a DC in the 86 to 106 range on a natural 20 on rolls where a nat 20 is an automatic success.

Also, even if he had a Constitution of 20, his maximum possible hp would be 75. So it could drop him into negatives or kill him outright.

On top of that, if the Massive Damage rules are being used, there'd be an additional DC 15 Fortitude save if he somehow was not killed.

Java Man wrote:
Coup de grace is nasty. Take the 4d6 for a scorching ray, doubled for auto crit, 28 avg dmg. He will survive 28hp, but he now must make a fort save, DC 10 + dmg dealt, or die. So DC 38 save or die.

Is there a way to Coup De Grace with a spell? I thought that the only way to coup de grace was with a melee weapon or a bow or crossbow.

Also, Snowball at CL 5 is doing 5d6 damage for 10d6 on a crit or an average of 35 damage, so that's a DC 45 on that save against auto-death.

FayetteGamer wrote:

This is an attrition campaign. New characters don't join, and killed characters aren't replaced. If the Paladin dies, The player isn't in the game until the next campaign starts (it also means if it goes wrong and I lose my character, I'm out until the next campaign).

Does that affect anyone's opinions?

Doesn't sound like the healthiest of play environments even aside from the GM and other players tolerating this nonsense behavior.

In the long run you should probably leave this group of people behind.

FayetteGamer wrote:
(I'm trying to plan for every potential eventuality, so I have a chance to survive if this comes to blows)

That reminds me.

How likely is it that this situation will escalate into physical violence?

Because if it is at all within the realm of plausible end results of this, you should really rethink staying on at all.

Ryan Freire wrote:
UH.....just coup de grace him in his sleep no need to make it complicated. On your watch fire some crittable ray or touch spell into his face, people at level 5 don't make that kind of fort save unless you roll disastrously low on damage

It lacks a certain panache if you're doing it right before kicking him from the group.

If the other player isn't getting evicted from the group, then just coup de gracing his character with a Scythe, Tetsubo, or Butchering Axe will only give him ideas and kick off a team-killing arms race.

Hire a series of dwarves to challenge him to drinking contests. 1 to 3 silver pieces to hire them and 2 sp per gallon of beer and you should easily be able to afford to do this 20 times with a different dwarf and 2 gallons of beer with a paltry budget of 10 gold pieces. Whiskey is 1 sp per 8 ounces, which works out to 5 and 1/3 shots of booze, if you want to go with liquor instead.

Once he's drunk himself unconscious, then you can do pretty much anything you like with him. Like put him aboard a ship heading for Arcadia.

Alternatively, do something suitably heroic so that you get thrown a victory party and have him get himself drunk while you've made arrangements.

For 10 gold, you could also hire a troupe of 33 actors for some kind of scheme. Or possibly acquire sufficient numbers of goons to give yourself an ablative shield of goons.

Investing in Carry Companion and a way to alter animals' attitudes towards you (perhaps Diplomacy + Anthropomorphic Animal ) could allow you to acquire your own set of loyal minions that you can build up discreetly over time.

There are a number of herd animals that use the CR 4 Bison statblock, many of them are not too expensive, Cows are 10 gp and Oxen are 15 gp, for instance. Alternatively, hiring a Druid to cast Call Animal is 10 gp multiplied by the CR of the creature you want to grab.

In the vein of the Cloak of the Hedgewizard, there are also the Apprentice's Cheating Gloves, which will add Prestidigitation and Mage Hand at-will.

Should only add about 3300 gp to the price of any other magic gloves or gauntlets the character might have.

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Hextor, the Greyhawk god of War, Tyranny, and Fitness, deserves some mention in this context. In the Greyhawk setting, he's one of, if not the only, Evil deities that is able to publicly operate in most places.

The 1d4chan entry about him is relatively free of profanity and vitriol, even.

While not specifically about Hextor, Red Fel's Compliance Will Be Rewarded: A Guide to Lawful Evil has something to say that I think is a good starting point. Or, at the very least, reading this thread immediately called them to mind and I felt motivated enough to post. :V

On Respectability as part of What LE is wrote:
[...] Consider this: The Church of Hextor is one of the only canon Evil religions that operates openly. How can it afford to do so? It creates order. It eliminates crime, poverty, and chaos. It promotes a regimen of physical fitness and ethical obligation. In many ways, it makes the lives of those within its iron grip better. [...]
On Loyalty as a motivation for LE characters wrote:
[...] Adequate Lawful Evil characters can stand alone, but truly great Lawful Evil characters stand with others. A leader is defined just as much by his own abilities as by those of the forces at his disposal. Why do you think the Church of Hextor can operate openly? It's because, in a strange way, it lives in symbiosis with the citizens under its thrall - it offers them protection and order, and they in turn provide it with support. [...]

I could draw some parallels with the philosophy of the Hell Knights and with Thomas Hobbes and his view of the social contract.

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So my research stalled out a bit, but I have managed to get the mill at Mount Vernon as a reference point, and it seems like mill technology, at least in terms of how much it could actually grind in a day, didn't really progress that much between the late Medieval period and the Early Modern period.

Pathfinder's default technological assumptions seem to vary between Medieval-ish to Early Modern, with a few anachronisms, like (possibly magically assisted) steam engines, though they all seem to be involved with constructs aside from the occasional smattering of obviously alien/foreign high technology.

So I feel fairly safe in accepting it as a relevant enough bit of information. That said, it is still only one data point, so it should be taken with a grain of salt.

More about Mills:
So the Mill at Mount Vernon had a daily throughput of about 5000 to 8000 pounds of grain, with much of it being maize ground into cornmeal and then the remainder as wheat ground into flour.

That gives us a rough starting point of 50 to 80 gp of value being created each day by doubling the value of the grain from 1 cp per pound to 2 cp per pound through the conversion from grain to flour.

So far it seems like most millstones would range from Small to Medium with some particularly large ones flirting with Large size. While the main gearage for driving the mechanisms of the mill as a whole seem to be in the Medium to Large range.

Downtime gives us a basis for the cost of a Mill as well as for a Mill Room. The value of a Mill seems to be 660 gp from the Mill Room, an office, and 2 rooms for storage (presumably grain in and then flour out). The Mill Room itself is 300 gp and consists of all of the mechanisms, etc. for the grinding of the grain, including the mill stones.

(It seems like a waterwheel is automatically part of the cost if it's just placed adjacent to appropriate water and windmills are hinted at, but no means by which to model adding the necessary tower are provided, so it's up to any individual GM to decide whether that means they have to decide what additional Room to build to count as a tower for the building or if a tower can be automatically added.)

Tying the cost of such a Mill back to the daily output, that's between 8.25 and 13.2 days for a 660 gp Mill to pay for itself producing 50 to 80 gp per day (averaged to 65 gp per diem, that's ~10.15 days). 3.75 to 6 days (avg 4.62) for the Mill Room to pay for itself. Mind, that is before labor and other costs.

Bringing it back to Animated Objects, the creation/construction costs for those are 1000 gp (Small), 2250 gp (Medium), or 6250 gp (Large). At an average of 65 gp per day those take ~15.38 days, ~34.62 days, or ~96.15 days for the operation of a Mill to pay for an Animated Object power source.

Putting those together, that means that, on the high end, it should take ~106.3 days, or a bit over 3 months, of operation to recoup the initial investment to buy or make a mill and then make it powered by an appropriate Animated Object. That's faster than a restaurant (3 to 5 years), certainly. On the low end, that's ~23.63 days, or less than a single month of high volume output.

I was going to go into a bit more depth with using Poppets and having only a single employee being paid a Manager's wage of ~3-5 gp from the Downtime system, but I haven't dug up enough to get a good idea of how many workers could be replaced by Poppets and how many it would take to do so. I hope to revisit the matter at some point in the not-so-distant future, but, well, life finds a way.


Since I'm mentioning Mills, though, there is a mildly interesting point of comparison in the form of a humble 10 gp mundane item, the Hand Rotary Quern.

An unskilled laborer can convert 8 pounds of Wheat into 8 pounds of Flour in an hour. So simply hiring an unskilled laborer for 8 hours of work would produce 64 pounds of Flour for a net profit of 54 copper pieces per day. (64 cp - 10 cp in wages; 128 cp gross income)

Poppets with Hand Rotary Querns:
This is an activity that seems within the range of what Poppets can plausible accomplish and a Tiny Poppet is 160 gp to make. So that puts our initial capital investment at 170 gp between the Poppet and its Quern.

Unlike a person, a Poppet can work tirelessly, 24/7, producing 192 pounds of flour per day and creating a net daily profit of 1.92 gp per day. As a result it should take such a Poppet + Quern setup about 88.54 days to pay for itself.

With Magic Capital and making the Quern one's self, the initial price can drop from 170 gp to 107.83 gp, which would pay for itself in ~56.16 days, shaving off about a month (~32.38 days) from the time it takes to pay for itself.

Compared with the investment in the most expensive Mill setup with a Large Animated Object (6910 gp), then using the 170 gp price, one could have 40 Tiny Poppets + Querns working and grinding out 7680 pounds of flour each 24 hour period. It would start producing revenue sooner than the Mill route, though it would initially be quite a bit smaller, and since Poppets can only be made at a rate of 1 per day, it means that it'll be 128.54 days after the start of the process that the 40th Poppet + Quern will have paid for itself.

Although the other poppets having been working for 40 days before it came online would certainly help. Once all are operational, that's 76.8 gp of net profit per day, or enough to pay for a new Poppet and its Quern every 2.2 days.


I was also reviewing the Magic Trick feat and I saw a few interesting things.

Magic Trick:
The first thing stood out to me was the Chromatic Savant trick for Prestidigitation and its ability to offer temporary hair and skin dyeing services.

Lasting Changes could also make some other Prestidigitation-based services more effective/tempting to consumers.

Thaumaturgic Aesthetics seems to be very open-ended for how it can combine with other spells, so I'm certain that there are some things that can be done with this. Beyond facilitating really elaborate and complicated shows of pageantry for nobles going to balls and courtly functions and that sort of thing, that is.

Unfettered Servant for Unseen Servant would make the spell even more useful by increasing its range and even allowing a Servant to be sent out to do a task, potentially.

Unseen Assistant provides a mechanical way for Unseen Servants to provide a mechanical benefit to aid in Craft, Perform, and/or Profession, or even just straight up do those. It won't compete with Fabricate, of course, but it would allow one to spam one's excess spell slots during downtime for greater effect.

Unfettered Servant and Unseen Assistant also have some potentially nifty synergy.

The Chromatic Savant use of Magic Trick also reminds me that, depending upon how/whether what you can create using Arcane Mark is restricted, one could use that to make what are effectively temporary tattoos.

Asheira wrote:

important to note (since this thread is the thing that comes up when i search)

snowball was erattaed after this was posted. it allows SR now

Technically they published a new spell with the same name rather than actually making an errata. Unless someone has come out with an official statement I missed.

Changing the school of the spell itself from Conjuration (Creation) to Evocation instead of just removing the SR: No clause certainly goes further than most kinds of errata, too. (Or maybe a level 1 Wizard being able to fill their own ice box over the course of a week or sell snowcones flavored with Prestidigitation really was just too OP.)

Although, admittedly, it does seem like half of the design team's collective brain absolutely hates/hated Conjuration (Creation) and its potential to permanently create matter and the other half loved it.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Constructs are really expensive, though. The least of Constructs I found cost 6500gp, that's 3500gp in components, and that's for 1 laborer.

To capitalize a labor force, wouldn't it make more sense to create Lyres of Building and hire Bards to play them? Each Lyre can perform 300 man-days of labor every week.

Most constructs are expensive, and you'll almost never want a Golem for any job that involves doing work. About the only exceptions I can think of that aren't using the golems as new bodies for people using the Soulbound Construct template would be A. Mask Golems to do skilled labor in hostile environments or B. Wax Golems to exploit the fact that they gain sapience and class levels.

Even at the most Shenanigany, though, a Wax Golem's shtick is still probably inferior to just going through Trompe l'Oeil cheese. (But the Painter Wizard should amply explore that subject without me needing to spend any more time on it, although there would be some less super cheesy uses, too.)

There are some useful gems when it comes to constructs that won't break the bank or offer the opportunity to rewrite reality. Animated Objects are one notable example, and while they're not very good for combat purposes, they can accomplish quite a bit when it comes to affecting a world.

Constructs and work/labor:
A Tiny Animated Object costs 250 gp market price or 125 gp to make. A Small Animated Object is 2000 gp market price, 1000 gp construction cost. A Tiny Animated Object could potentially serve as a power source for a number of useful applications and a Small Animated Object definitely could, though it would involve mixing magic with mundane forms of technology.

Even using a Small Animated Object in one of the least creative ways possible, using it to power a mill stone (or even *be* a millstone) would have notable impacts on how you could structure a society and where you could have settlements. Although, in a place like the River Kingdoms where you're never far from a body of water that's probably suitable for a watermill, some of those effects would be less pronounced or relevant.

(Used in a similar way, a Hand Rotary Quern that is a Tiny Animated Object would be able to pay for itself after a bit more than 70 days, just grinding 13,500 pounds of wheat (~225 bushels) into as many pounds of flour.)

Poppets are almost as cheap as Tiny Animated Objects, with Tiny Poppets having a base cost of 160 gp and even with +4 Str and Tripled Carrying Capacity they're still less than 500 gp to make(485 gp) with 195 lb max load. Small Poppets have a base cost of 500 gp and with the same augmentations (825 gp) have a max load of 517.5 lb.

It's also made fairly explicit that you can basically program Poppets to react in a certain way in certain situations so that they can execute a series of individually simple actions in order to carry out more complex tasks, especially when you have multiple Poppets that can take a sort of assembly line approach to a process.

Going back to Soulbound Mannequins for a moment, though. If you used HD modification to put one at 15 HD, gave them max ranks in Craft Alchemy along with the Prodigy, Skill Focus, Master Alchemist, and Signature Skill feats; and gave them a proper Alchemist's Lab you could have that construct producing 2730 gp of product per day (or a dose of poison worth that much for each point of Intelligence bonus you give the construct, at a cost of 5000 gp each), for a net profit of 455 gp.

Such a Soulbound Mannequin would pay for itself within a month (~27.5 days).

Admittedly, doing the same thing with just the Gunsmith feat could be done without any HD modification and would produce a net profit of 400 gp per day by producing gunpowder or ammunition, paying for itself in less than 22 days.


Going back to your example 6500 gp market price, 3500 gp construction cost construct, that exactly lines up with the Rune Guardian, which is a *very* interesting little construct that is actually a lot more useful for labor purposes than it is as a guard or watchdog.

Rune Guardian stuff:
For one thing, they're sapient, so there's no extra cost or hoops to jump through in order to make them capable of following orders well. Even limiting them to only 1st level spells with CL 3, simply changing the SLA they have has a big impact.

That 3500 gp you spent to make a Rune Guardian of Sloth/Conjuration with Unseen Servant instead of Summon Monster is going to be able to have the equivalent of 1800 hands to throw at a problem with them sticking around for 3 hours each. While the "hands" are individually weak, one hour's worth of them can still lift a combined total of 12,000 pounds or 6 tons, and could pull or drag up to 60,000 lb or even 120,000 lb with favorable conditions. So there are some definite warehousing applications.

As a tireless construct, it can work 24/7, so it could provide the equivalent of 3 shifts of laborers. Let's lowball and say it takes 5 2-Strength Unseen Servants to be the equivalent of 1 ordinary 10-Strength laborer. That'd be the equivalent of 360 laborers across 3 shifts or 1080 man-days per day. If you earned or created value equal to the equivalent of 1 untrained laborer's day wage per man-day, that'd be 108 gp per day (or 216 gp if you count the saved wages along with the value created), paying for itself in a bit over 1 month and 2 days (or a bit over 2 weeks accounting for saved wages).

Rune Guardians are basically acting as foremen while they're at it, so they could even accomplish far more complicated tasks than just replicating the work of unskilled labor.

Sloth/Conjuration Rune Guardians also offer possibility of the incredibly useful Expeditious Construction spell as an option. At CL 3 that is 10 by 3 by 3 feet of either unmortared stone or packed earth, or 90 cubic feet. Masonry Stone is a trade good valued at 5 cp per pound. Limestone can range from ~110 lb per cubic foot and 160+ lb per cubic foot, so let's say it's 135 lb per cubic foot, and say that also accounts for the parts that aren't stone.

135 * 90 = 12,150 pounds or ~607.5 gp of masonry stone. So within 6 uses of its SLA, such a Rune Guardian would have more than paid for itself. It would take a single such Rune Guardian about 18 uses or a little under 2 minutes to make an 18' high, 9' thick, 10' long wall. To make something on the scale of Hadrian's Wall (73 miles long, 10 feet thick, 16-20 feet high), it would take 38,544 such segments and a bit over 48 days.

Old Snowball would also create a lot of ice/snow. If, say, it created a 3-inch diameter sphere of it per use of the spell, that would be ~39.27 cubic feet of it after one hour. A single Rune Guardian would be able to supply quite a few ice boxes and ice houses. (New Snowball would be Wrath/Evocation and may or may not be able to re-freeze thawing ice or freeze water or make ice even colder than it already was)

Expeditious Excavation is a Greed/Transmutation option that can excavate 5-ft cubes in 6 seconds, allowing a single Rune Guardian to accomplish the same amount of digging (75,000 cubic feet) in one hour as could be accomplished with 625 man-hours using ordinary shovels.

Abstemiousness is another Transmutation/Greed spell and having a construct with the ability to cast it at-will would open up a lot of possibilities as to how that could impact a location and the kind of population it can sustain.

Bless Water would notably allow for quantities of holy water to be produced. After less than an hour and 140 flasks of Holy Water produced, such a Rune Guardian would have paid for itself. (Although it would probably need to be working with a Rune Guardian with Unseen Servant to move the flasks around, etc., but it would still pay for that one, too, in less than that same first hour.) (When I think about at-will creation of holy water, I always get warm thoughts idly thinking about how much you'd need to produce in order to give someone in the Worldwound a very bad day when you drop it on them in the form of an ice meteor. Or to flood the Pit of Gormuz.)

Break would have numerous potential applications, although it might be partially redundant with Unseen Servants, they could still work in conjunction with them, to pulverize things smaller after the unseen servants break off a Medium or smaller chunk.

One with Crafter's Fortune could basically function as the basis for a factory workshop, allowing even completely unskilled people to have an 80% chance of successfully using Aid Another to boost a principle character's Craft check result or even to churn out goods with a DC of 15 or lower.

Enhance Water can be used to create any kind of alcoholic beverage at a rate of 3 pint per 6 seconds or 225 gallons per hour. Making plain old garden variety Ale, that's a mere 45 gp per hour(still less than 4 days to pay itself off, though), but making something like Baiju which is 10 gp for 2 pints(or less) that's more like 9000 gp per hour. Combined with cheap, available water or Create Water, it could also create a substantial amount of nutrition, between things like rumboozle, pulque, and kumis before getting into things like kefir or even (mildly) alcoholic smoothies of pureed whole fresh fruits and vegetables.

Fabricate Bullets creates 30 gp of value that can be sold for 15 gp per use. They generate a net profit of 13 gp per 6 seconds or 7800 gp per hour, though they would consume 600 pounds of metal in the process. Unless, due to the weird way the spell is written up, they're bringing the lead into existence similar to the exploit with Serren's Swift Girding, in which case they're generating a net profit of 15 gp per 6 seconds, 9000 gp per hour.

It's exploity, but Serren's Swift Girding would allow a Rune Guardian to effectively create armor on a person. Creating Armored Coats would be the most efficient way to go about it with 3 targets for the process at a time, since each armored coat could be removed as a move action, allowing 150 gp of value or 75 gp of profit when sold to be created each round. That would be 45,000 gp after just one hour of going through that process. Even just using it to outfit one's troops would almost certainly see it pay for itself in savings, even without equipping anyone with MW Full Plate.

(~57,857 gp with 3 people getting MW Fortress Plate put on them that they then take 3.5 minutes taking off. More people would mean it could get up to 4,050,000 gp in MW Fortress Plate that could be sold for 2,025,000 gp. Alternatively, 3 solid Gold Chain Coats per round that are each 60 lb and thus worth a total of 9000 gp in terms of gold as a trade good. Up to a cap of 5.4 million in an hour.)

Tears to Wine can function similarly to Crafter's Fortune, in that it can make a lot of people notably better at their jobs, though they will have to take more frequent trips to the water cooler or work out a way to efficiently disperse the liquid. The two combined would give a 90% chance of successfully Aiding Another, even for completely average and untrained people and a decent chance even to people with an Int penalty.

Looking at Gluttony/Necromancy, there's the Decompose Corpse to skeletonize it, Restore Corpse to give it skin and flesh, and then butchering and using Purify Food and Drink to make it no longer rotten (not necessarily in that order) and then repeating the process all over again that can produce all kinds of materials or just an infinite food source.

Defoliate will absolutely destroy plant life in order to further land clearance for a variety of purposes, and faster than using Unseen Servants would.

Preserve will prevent food from rotting or spoiling for 1 week. In one hour a Rune Guardian of Gluttony with CL 3 could preserve 600 pounds of food. I believe that's 302,400 pounds (151.2 tons) of food (or other substances) that a single one could preserve indefinitely.

Envy/Abjuration would open up things like Alarm or Endure Elements which would be able to provide 600 people with 24-hour protection against fairly extreme heat and cold over the course of an hour. Waterproof would be similar to Endure Elements but for making creatures or relatively light objects waterproof for the same duration.

Incendiary Runes would allow it to churn out quite a lot of no-save, 1d6 fire damage traps in a day.

As far as Lust/Enchantment goes, there are a few options that would be interesting.

Call Animal would be able to get any wild Animal of CR 3 or lower that's within 3 hours travel to come. This could have uses for hunting, but probably more useful would be taming animals and using it in conjunction with spells such as Charm Animal and Animal Purpose Training in order to get various potential uses out of said animals.

Fairness would have immediate and obvious ramifications for business deals, especially if its use was required in order for contracts, etc. to be legal and above board.

Keep Watch can revolutionize some industries or at least make it so that it requires deliberate hostile action in order to make guards fall asleep during their night watch.

Memorize Page could revolutionize education, especially when you remember that there is no size limitation on the page. It would also make it impossible for employees to forget what's in the employee handbook or proper safety procedures.

Sow Thought could, I believe, be used to brute force indoctrinate a person by flooding their mind with the thoughts that you want to take hold. There are certainly more possibilities that being able to spam this opens up, though.


As for Lyres of Building, those are indeed pretty great. Although I think they're best used when it comes to massive public works projects and strip-mining. Roads, ditches, canals, massive earthworks and walls, that sort of thing.

Even there, though, constructs can be quite handy, since an appropriate construct would be able to play a lyre indefinitely. I would pick a Soulbound Doll or Soulbound Mannequin by my preference.

The Soulbound Mannequin can easily get 10 ranks in Perform (string instruments) in order to play the Lyre more than competently while taking 10. A Soulbound Doll would be cheaper at less than half the cost, but would require putting its feats in Skill Focus (Perform) and Prodigy as well as 4 ranks into Perform and using HD modification to give it a single extra HD.

(You could also get a certain amount of synergy with the Rune Guardian idea by basically taking the raw stone created by Expeditious Construction and processing it through the labor of a Lyre of Building until the stones fit together perfectly even without mortar or remaking the wall with mortar.)

Interestingly, I went and did a search on a spell filter and got results of there being 191 Enchantment spells in general and there being 175 Enchantment spells with the [mind-affecting] descriptor. Two of those ended up having the [mind-affecting] descriptor on Archives of Nethys.

Keep Watch and Bungle are two that don't have it in their spell descriptions, even on AoN.

Swallow Your Fear, Delay Pain, Bestow Insight, Severed Fate, Bleed For Your Master, Instant Enemy, the Downtime spells Business Booms & Prosperous Room, Bite the Hand & its Mass version, Die For Your Master, and Utter Contempt also all apparently lack the [mind-affecting] descriptor.

I don't see any of those being used to buff undead, though. Barring maybe Bestow Insight if there's some kind of undead skillmonkey in the party.

If you have some sources to cite put out by Paizo that specifically address all this, I'd be most interested to hear it, but everything I've seen so far mostly indicates that they largely kept with the wibbly-wobbly ill-defined mess on the nature of undeath they inherited from WOTC and, through WOTC, TSR.

Just with a lot more undead that are straight up "insane" and a lot fewer forms of undead that could be considered to have personhood proper.

Depending upon how you do it, the bound elementals might have more style and/or panache. They also could be significantly cheaper than the number of such items that might be necessary for some purposes.

An archipelago where arboreal octopi are a thing and they are personable enough to be "tamed" and sailors and other types have taken to keeping them as pets.

Some of them even pick up strange vices, such as one ship-captain's companion that loves novelty bubble pipes.

DarthEnder wrote:
Oh well. I was hoping to be able to fight with a floating sword, but I guess not.

There's an occult ritual, Egoist's Militia, that sort of almost does that.

You can certainly play it as binding a fully self-aware elemental with personhood in there.

From what I recall from the established traditions of the progenitor game, it's not like a sapient elemental, any more than the negative energy that you pump into a corpse in order to make a mindless undead is sapient negative energy.

I don't recall anything in the bestiary entries for golems about sapient elementals being enslaved or bound, though it does mention elemental spirits, and for Flesh Golems and, iirc, Clay Golems, their chance to go berserk has to do with imperfect control over the elemental spirit within. Or possibly imperfect vessels for the elemental power.

I haven't read the Construct Handbook, though, so there may be something in there that serves to better clarify things. If there isn't, you'll probably need to trawl through or find someone well-versed in D&D lore that can find where it's covered. Dragon Magazine probably had a few articles on the subject over the years.

Oh, right, and golems are compatible with being made as Clockwork constructs, which eliminates the need for animating spirits of any kind but does make them dependent on winding.

Construct labor forces:
If you want a construct labor force that can do things and is smart, there are two main options that I see, and, as a bonus, both are intelligent, 1. Rune Guardians (and determining prices for ones with higher level spells) or 2. Soulbound Mannequins.

Rune Guardians, as far as I know, don't specify what their animating force comes from. And even with just level 1 spells, Unseen Servant being spammed out at-will can accomplish a fair bit.

Soulbound Mannequins siphon off a piece of soul, but they do so harmlessly. I'd imagine, given the context, it's the part that would be discarded during the path to the afterlife and/or the part that connects the soul to the body which would probably need to be replaced anyway to shove the soul back on in there. Breath of Life significantly streamlines the process for doing it ethically, too.

Undead and souls:
Mindless undead and the relationship with the soul, if any, is a mess as far as subjects go. I still find Frank and K's Tome of Necromancy to be the best treatment of the two competing themes of negative energy and undead that were present in D&D 3.5 and still are to a variable extent in Pathfinder 1st Edition.

Wheldrake wrote:
If the Azlanti race were added as an Ancestry, their attributes would blow any other race out of the water. It would doubtless be "rare" since Aroden was supposed to be the last Azlanti.

I'm curious, why did you bring this up?

So what did you end up doing, anyway?

This Telekinesis?

I don't see anything about it allowing you to wield weapons remotely.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Sarusan is a mystery that the few traders who go there seem unable to speak of...but people know where it is and such traders exist, and otherwise the world seems well known (at least to scholars), and trade seems pretty common, though mostly only at a Renaissance or so tech level, as magic is ill suited to bulk trade for the most part.

There's trade with Sarusan? Where is that covered?

All I'd been able to dig up was that everyone who has tried to go there in recent memory just hasn't returned and people avoid sailing anywhere near it because they get amnesia if they make it back at all.

Dasrak made a random spellbook generator that might be relevant here. It was linked over in this
"Need Mid-Level Wizard Builds"
thread by J.A.

A few of the builds there might also be of interest when it comes to examples.

Come to think of it, Ravingdork has made quite a reputation for building, well, builds and characters. Getting in touch with him would probably be interesting if he has the time to reply.

Arguably you could make that a variant of Bestow Curse.

Compare with the other effects of (Greater) Bestow Curse , as well as with Amnesia which explicitly does not remove literacy but does remove a whole boatload of other things.

Forcing them to make a Linguistics Check equal to the Save DC of the spell each time they look at characters in order to see if they appear normally or they can decipher them might be easier to get by a GM as a 3rd level spell, though.

zza ni wrote:
scribes (i mean they can scribe even magical scrolls at level 1 so common shouldn't be that hard).

I'm reminded of one NPC Wizard I ran into in Way of the Wicked, where one of his main ways of keeping busy when not selling magic items, was doing everyone's taxes and accounting.

zza ni wrote:
Lumberjacks (animate object on axes and ant's haul etc).

Come to think of it, couldn't Animate Objects reduce waste by having the tree uproot itself, walk out of the woods, and then lay down in a convenient location, felling itself? Granted, anything larger than Huge requires a very high CL.

Although the spell isn't a Wizard spell, so it'd have to be a 7th level Wizard or a 5th level one with Retraining (250 gp). Or could be lower with sufficient funds and the Protector of the People story feat.

I believe making a Tiny Animated Object that is made of Adamantine and a buzzsaw would cost the same to build as a Small Animated Object(1000 gp) due to the CR being increased by +2 (from CR 1/2 to CR 2) for having 5 CP over its limit. Or if it has to have slashing attack for being a saw, it would be 6 CP over the limit and so +3 CR for CR 3 total, which would make it cost as much as a Medium Animated Object(2250 gp).

(That's assuming an animated object that's a saw is able to spin properly to do that.)

On that note, I'm about to delve into the subject of mills.

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I haven't neatened it up yet to group the spells by theme, but aside from combat spells, if they live in a settlement and support themselves somehow, they probably have some kind of business spells that would be in the mix. I went through cantrips to 6th level spells over in the businesses for wizards thread not too long ago.

So I'd probably select a small selection of them around a particular theme, offhand I'd say something like 2-3, to add in addition to their more adventuring-relevant spells. Probably a few more spells than that if they primarily are selling Spellcasting Services as their shtick.

Cevah wrote:

I know they can get more with their WBL budget, but how many more should they get?


Depends, do you have a character that can make use of the book in the party?

Are they just to be an enemy and then probably get killed? A recurring enemy? An ally to the party?

Ryan Freire wrote:
Coidzor wrote:
Meirril wrote:
I'd recommend a set of Bulette Armor, full plate. Mainly because I just like the image of a dog in a shark-suit complete with the very distinctive Bulette fin on the back. But more seriously Bulette armor gets a 2 better dex mod so it actually is good.

That seems pretty expensive. Isn't it 10x the cost of normal full plate?

The version I was able to check on seems like it might have a max dex of +2, rather than having an increase to max dex of +2 added to the +1 of full plate.

If it costs 15,000 and is only +2 max dex, mithral would be 4500 cheaper and have 1 higher max dex and 1 lower ACP.

Make mithril bullette plate

So 24,000 gp for the armor before making it magic.

Oh, wait, I just remembered, the plan is to keep the dog a quadruped. So that doubles the base cost of the armor, so it would cost 39,000 gp if you can Mithral up Bulette Plate. So that'd be 13,000 gp in raw materials if you wanted to go the Fabricate route.

+9 Armor bonus, +4 or +5 Max Dex, -4 ACP, 35% ASF, & 32.5 lb for stats.


How does your GM feel about Piecemeal Armor, Kimera757?

Piecemeal Armor stuff:

Should be 590 gp for a MW suit comprised of Scale Arms and Legs and a Plate Torso(220 base doubled to 440, +150 for MW). That armor would have +9 Armor bonus, +3 Max Dex, -3 ACP, 40% ASF, 45 lb, and has the move speed reduction.

Should boost him up to 22 AC, 23 if the stat boost from taking levels is given to him and his dexterity increases. And then it'd just be another 1000 gp to pay someone else to make it +1 armor. Or 500 gp if you can get that Wizard in the party to do it.

And you could make it all Mithral for only 7000 gp due to the two pieces that are made with medium armor pieces. (2530 gp in raw materials for the Fabricate route)

You would almost certainly have to get it custom made or get the raw material and cast Fabricate or pay for Fabricate to be cast yourselves, though.

Meirril wrote:
I'd recommend a set of Bulette Armor, full plate. Mainly because I just like the image of a dog in a shark-suit complete with the very distinctive Bulette fin on the back. But more seriously Bulette armor gets a 2 better dex mod so it actually is good.

That seems pretty expensive. Isn't it 10x the cost of normal full plate?

The version I was able to check on seems like it might have a max dex of +2, rather than having an increase to max dex of +2 added to the +1 of full plate.

If it costs 15,000 and is only +2 max dex, mithral would be 4500 cheaper and have 1 higher max dex and 1 lower ACP.

3rd Edition also had the Belt of Many Pockets which appeared in the book "Complete Arcane."

It would automatically allow the wearer to reach into the correct pouch to retrieve whatever was desired, though it wasn't necessarily always on top of the contents of the pouch it was in, I believe.

Also had some potentially interesting interactions with familiars.

ErichAD wrote:
Java Man wrote:
It doesn't create armor, it places existing armor on the targets. Listing as a material component, and not a focus or target is odd, and I believe an error.
As written it seems like a fun thing to abuse with false focus or blood money though.

Yeah, a mere 2 points of strength damage could create a solid gold Chain Coat that's made of 60 pounds of gold (3000 gp) or 3 points of strength damage could get a solid gold Four-Mirror Armor of 67.5 lb of solid gold (3375 gp). Even with False Focus, one could make a regular old Chain Shirt for free and then sell it for 50 gp.

Aside from wealth generation, given 10 Strength to start with and access to Blood Money, any non-magical armor that's made of special materials and costs 4500 gp or less would be fair game. Assuming you have to keep yourself at least one point of Strength.

So there would be a few special materials that wouldn't be options, but most would be on the table, although some would only be viable for Light or Medium armor.

Could even be combined with the Salvaging rules from Ultimate Wilderness to provide raw materials to make something more expensive than the 100 gp cap of False Focus or what could be made with the caster's available Strength score for Blood Money.

So, thanks to an observation by ErichAD in the Rule you never see used though it is RAW thread, I just realized that due to Serren's Swift Girding being written (probably) incorrectly there's an exploit.

Swift Girding stuff:
Specifically, because the armor involved is listed as a component instead of a focus, that means that False Focus and Blood Money both apply. Allowing one to replicate what one could do with Create Armaments or Fabricate with a 1st level spell.

Of course, given it's listed as a material component the spells shouldn't work at all because the armor would be consumed by casting the spell, leading to no armor to put on them. Although it could be argued that the spell description overrules this.

Combining Swift Girding with False Focus could allow one to use the Salvaging rules to be able to create the raw materials needed to craft a more expensive item for free. Although it would probably be faster and more economical to make Chain Shirts, sell them for 50 gp, and then use Downtime to Earn Capital to acquire Goods to use as crafting material instead.

Swift Girding + Blood Money could even make use of the Salvaging rules to get the ability to create items that are expensive enough that the caster's strength score creates a practical cap that is lower than the price of the item. Also it could combine with Fabricate to make the maximum amount of gp of solid gold equipment that they could make and then turn it into an art object or jewelry 3x the cost of the gold.


Also, in other, less cheesy news, I was reminded of how customized uses of Bestow Curse can be used as an alternative form of contraception to the conventional use of Night Tea for women or Bachelor Snuff for men.

Number crunching on contraceptives:
150 gp for the basic 3rd level spell version or even 280 gp for the 4th level spell version that Wizards get is significantly less expensive in the long run for longer lived races such as Dwarves and Elves. Elves especially, since they spend around 155 years in their most fertile period before hitting Middle-Age.

Essentially, any woman who wants to avoid the chance of pregnancy for longer than ~7.67 years would be better off with the Wizard version of Bestow Curse than Night Tea.

Whereas for men, they can gamble on getting an average result of 2 days per dose of Bachelor Snuff or they can take it every day, so that's either ~76% of a year or about 1.5 years before wizardly Bestow Curse is the way to go.

So even for humans, where women are generally only fertile for about or a bit less than 30 years, it can be more economical to go with Bestow Curse if they have the means to pay.

Granted, the numbers will skew a bit given that they don't have to be used daily except during periods of being sexually active.

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Geruvurrda wrote:
While undead created by any sort of spawn ability lose themselves, liches are transforming themselves, and retain their old, evil personality, I wouldn't make them into an NPC. It defeats the point

I think defeating the point was their point and desire. Due to hating the concept.

A lot of players who have taken up PF have bought into the company philosophy on undeath even if they perhaps started out with a different philosophy from other games or even old hands who came over with the switch from 3.5.

To the point where quite a lot of vitriol has been spewed on various forums because someone else expressed an alternative way to treat things, even outside of playing in Golarion.

I didn't use a standardized rating system, but I did go through all Wizard spells between 0th and 6th level not too long ago.It was from a business standpoint, though. Even given that narrow purpose it was pretty exhausting just going through and reading or re-reading all of the spells.

A lot of spells also struck me as ones where they really needed more time spent considering them and comparing them against other similar options in terms of other spells, class abilities, and items, than I was willing/able to give to them due to wanting to get through the whole list.

This series of threads over on Reddit is probably also relevant to your interests, even if there are some non-Wizard spells mentioned.

Claxon wrote:
Spells only do what they say they do.

There's still a considerable amount of leeway in interpreting things with some spells. As well as some spells that require GM adjudication due to lack of definition in the spell description.

For instance, Slough does not define exactly what form the skin that falls off takes. Is it all in one piece, basically leaving a mostly intact "that creature suit?" Is it in thousands of teeny, tiny shreds? Is it in irregular patches of varying size?

The spell doesn't say, but one of those options has to be decided upon by the GM.

It also doesn't say anything about feathers or scales or hair or fur and yet those really shouldn't be left behind with the skin coming out between them at the majority of tables.

Is he overly and narrowly literal about everything or most things?

If not, you'll probably have to work at communicating with him to find out what about the spell upsets or offends him before you can determine if persuasion is possible or worth the time and effort that would have to be invested.

Making sure that the issue isn't due to some personal grievance or issue that the GM has with you would also be good as part of covering your bases. Ditto for some kind of beef they have with you on behalf of someone else.

Well, there's the Big 6 items for keeping up with the Joneses, for starters. Are you aware of what those are specifically?

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First, what setting are you playing in?

Second, what school of thought or philosophy do you buy into or use when it comes to the nature of undeath and negative energy?

Third, how do you genuinely feel about one of your players' characters becoming undead? Does it align with the overall narrative of the campaign? Are you genuinely OK with allowing this and won't do something passive-aggressive in response?

Hugo Rune wrote:
Geruvurrda wrote:
I like the idea of a gradual change, it will help it not feel so jarring when your designing encounters, and it's a decent boon for the player too :)
I'm not a fan for the reason that it is a decent boon for the PC. For 15k the character can have permanent darkvision. Another 15k and they get two free feats worth of skill bonuses. They can stop at any point they want. In my mind, becoming a lich would take total dedication and ultimate sacrifice with no interim rewards.

Maybe more narratively appropriate in some cases and settings, but a drawn out, granular process would be the least likely to break the game and allow more on the fly tweaking of individual moving parts.

Should also generally create less friction with the player, assuming they're OK with gradual transformation, since it's generally less emotionally fraught to tweak or replace one ability at a time than to take a whole bundle of them away at once, even if the end result is the same in both cases (though it easily might not be the same due to the amount of time available to make a decision).

Meirril wrote:

Now Yzzerdd is asking about ways to abuse PAO by paying attention to the description of the spell but wanting to go beyond the mechanical limitations that the description ends with. Those limitations at the end are important. If you don't feel that the effect can be generated by those end spells, then that use of PAO shouldn't be allowed.

I just read the Archives of Nethys text for PAO.

Polymorph Any Object wrote:
This spell can also be used to duplicate the effects of baleful polymorph, greater polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud.

That is not at all worded as a limitation and is largely unchanged from the 3.5 wording where it was intended as an add-on or additional ability of the spell.

So I'm going to have to ask you for your source on that sentence being intended as a limitation.

Turning creatures into objects and objects into creatures is made fairly clear in the text of the spell, even ignoring that table.

Turning a creature into a non-magical object that doesn't involve any special materials is a lot less complicated than turning a creature into another creature and deciding what options to allow it to access by doing so.

There's basically no real risk of some kind of gamebreaking combo (real or perceived) being facilitated by turning a creature into an object or an object into another object, especially with GMs that are going to actively curtail attempts by the PCs to exceed WBL.


An important thing to remember when looking at Polymorph and Polymorph Any Object in Pathfinder 1st Edition, especially when trying to understand anything weird or unusual about them is that they're very much reactions to the D&D 3.5 version that they are based upon.

Polymorph was rather infamous for being a powerful, open-ended spell that only became more powerful with just about every published creature, and one of the things Paizo decided to change heavily when adapting the OGL content they had to work with into a new system.

You can take a look at the D&D 3.5 versions of Polymorph Any Object and Polymorph and compare them with the more defined and limited Pathfinder versions.

Understanding the mindset and intention behind the change is important to understanding why others are defining the abilities very narrowly to you.

I just remembered another option, similar to making intelligent constructs that can take Master Craftsman. Because it is also making a servitor and then having it take Master Craftsman.

Blast Shadows are undead that can be created using Create Undead by a level 14+ spellcaster. There is no limit on the number of them that can be controlled, the duration that they can be controlled, or the HD that can be controlled. Their only limitation is time, wealth (in onyx), and bodies capable of fine manipulation that have been killed with spells that deal Acid, Cold, Electricity, or Fire damage.

Depending upon version, they either have 8 HD or 10 HD. Both of those are sufficient to be able to retrain to gain the Master Craftsman, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and Cooperative Crafting feats. The 10 HD version could even take something like Gunsmithing as their 5th feat and churn out valuable goods quite quickly when not engaged in magic item crafting.

Definitely one of the more finicky forms of undead to make, since one would typically have to actively kill creatures to do it instead of being able to recycle ones that have already died, but it doesn't require a humanoid body, so animals and other creatures with the necessary capacity to manipulate objects could also be used.

Granted, a contract to execute condemned prisoners and dispose of their bodies could create a source of suitable bodies and no one really cares about bandit problems suddenly vanishing overnight. So there would be ways and means.

So, yeah, that's 400-500 gp for the Blast Shadow itself, another 400-500 per feat to retrain (so 400 * 4 or 500 * 5), another 400-500 per skill rank to retrain (5 of them required for Master Craftsman) and then the cost of the body itself.

So either 4000 gp for the 8 HD version or 5500 gp for the 10 HD version (5000 gp without retraining a 5th feat for Gunsmithing). So between about 1/2 and 2/3 of the cost of making a Soulbound Mannequin before factoring in the cost of acquiring the body in the first place.

Although if you changed your mind, there is actually a spell that automatically removes the skin for you.

Slough, which makes all their skin fall off in such a way that is easy to grow back with a few Lesser Restorations.

JiCi wrote:

Bayonet Holster... seems a bit pointless since there's already a bayonet, since Ultimate Equipment. What would be better is if the holster would allow you to attach a bayonet without rendering your firearm useless.

I could see it as having a bayonet without blocking the cannon, but imparting a misfire by 1 due to the increased weight.

The wording on the homebrew would be to give a bayonet that didn't block the muzzle of the gun.

Instead of making the gun more likely to explode, I would say that firing a gun with a bayonet attached would lower either accuracy or range.

Yqatuba wrote:
Crazy idea: what if you cut your own hand off, had someone cast continual flame on it, then cast regenerate to re-attach it. Would it still be on fire?

Ultimately at that point you're in GM adjudication territory.

Egeslean05 wrote:
Fogsight (Ex)

What kind of range does Fogsight have? The character's normal line of sight?

Egeslean05 wrote:
Greensight (Ex) 30 feet (you can see through solid wood less than 6in thick once maximum range is achieved)

What is the maximum range?

Egeslean05 wrote:
True Sight (Su) 5 feet (minimum 15th level), maximum range 20ft

This doesn't add up. If you get 5 feet at 15th level, then your only opportunity to increase the range comes at 18th level and at 18th level, you can only add +5 feet. So that puts an effective cap of 10 feet of range on True Sight, and the defined maximum range can't be reached as far as I can tell.

The Green Traveller wrote:
Anyways, can I also get feedback on the specialized ammunition and gunpowders?

That I'm less certain of, but it seems like DC 12 seems like it might be a little bit low for Faerielight Powder, even if it's just one round of non-magical Faerie Fire.

Also, wow, I just realized how that could be extremely useful on a weapon with the Scatter property, since you wouldn't have to know the exact space to target and instead could attack the general vicinity.

I'm curious about how they would interact with alchemical cartridges, or if they do.

Adamantine-tipped Bullets seem cheaper than regular old vanilla Adamantine Bullets as well as being able to do more, or at least, the text seems to indicate that Adamantine-tipped Bullets ignore all hardness and material-based damage reduction, not just stuff that's bypassed by Adamantine. So those are definitely pretty powerful, I would say, at least with the current wording.

All the prices probably all tweaking, but I'm not sure where to go with them, sorry.

Air Crystal Pellets and Alchemical Glue Bullets are pretty nifty with their expansion of the kind of thing that can be done with a firearm.

There was a city described in one of the D&D 3.5 sourcebooks which featured a district of the city that was one giant park, inhabited and maintained by a cabal of druids along with a number of natural creatures, including some of the more benign-to-neutralish fey. (Saltmarsh, perhaps?)

Had a lasting impact on me, so I've recycled and rehashed the idea more than a few times.

I imagine that Druids would be important to anyone who wanted to engage in arboreal architecture and using living trees as building space. Druids, Wizardly sorts, and Druid-Wizard fusions tend to feature in my "tree cities."

(Although, come to think of it, some kind of Bard archetype might work for that kind of idea of fusion of arcane magic and druidcraft, too. There's even some sort of association between singing and magic that affects plants in my mind for some reason I cannot remember.)

I've never eliminated Urban Druids, but I've never been 100% comfortable with giving them time in the spotlight, either, due to not being entirely confident about the best way to use them. I do have a soft spot for the idea, though, and an even softer spot for urban fey in the "spirits of places" sense, so it's one of those things that I continually mean to come back to but just haven't gotten around to yet.

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