Well, that may be because the fantasy-iconic wizard's staff isn't meant for the barbarian, but the wizard.
The whole "operate at the wielder's caster level" + caster's DC is very good for (you named it) casters, since it lets them blast out more spells than their daily allotment (while still being at relevant DC and damage). And then they can restore the charges in their downtime.
I mean, if you only had 25 arrows per day as an archer, then you would surely try to raise that number, right?
For one thing Staves automatically feed off of YOUR caster level. Scrolls are hardwired by how they were made. This is a biggie. You also can't always count on mr. magic shop being right around the corner to buy more scrolls.
They also effectively add more usable spells to a sorcerer's repertoire... again casting at her caster level.
One advantage is that it's always on hand, and still renewable. You're probably recharging them in downtime, but it's still a spell you have on hand in case you need it. Some casters even go the full golfbag approach.
Another is that these work on YOUR caster level. That CL 3 scroll is CL 3, even if you're CL 15. Get your hands on a staff, and it's CL 15. Useful for spells that have varying effects -- Magic Missile-laden staves are the first that come to mind for me, since I've never played a spellcaster that lived to 5th level to get Fireball, but you see what I mean there.
And then there's the fact it's 1d6 damage plus 1.5x your strength mod in melee, or a double weapon if you've gone that direction -- I had a fighter in 3.5 who specialised in the double-bladed sword, but met some skeletons. She 'borrowed' a magical staff ...
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Repeating for emphasis. Staves (in our games, so far) are generally much higher-level than the poor Schmendrick who stumbles across them, so the power loss is considerable.Yes, they operate at the wielder's caster level rather than the item's... which is a step DOWN more often than not.
From the staves section: "the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it's higher than the caster level of the staff."
If you find that staff with CL 15 and you're CL 8, feel free to use it at CL 15.
Staves are simply... cool.
Sure, they seem overpriced. Sure, you can't use them 50 times a day, like a newly purchased wand.
But once you've used up the charges, you can recharge a staff at no extra cost (barring spells with expensive components). That right there makes them very cool.
Using them at your own caster level is simply icing on the cake.
IMHO, Paizo went overboard when they limited them to ten charges. Especially since many powers use multiple charges. That just encourages the golfbag approach, which I don't like at all, for flavor reasons.
A home game DM is free to change that limit. And though they seem overpriced, in the long run they are a real bargain.
<shrug>
Wait, let me process that one....
What we've been doing is this:
A. Level 7 wizard can cast a CL7 Fireball.
B. Wizard finds a cool CL15 Staff of Fire with a couple charges left.
C. Level 7 wizard now cast an addition CL7 Fireball, after which he's holding a heavy stick. You know what weighs less and costs a WHOLE LOT less money? A scroll.You seem to be suggesting that Mr. Level 7 Wizard can use the staff to cast a CL15 Fireball. Is that correct?
That would be what the rule as written says, yes.
Wait, let me process that one....
What we've been doing is this:
A. Level 7 wizard can cast a CL7 Fireball.
B. Wizard finds a cool CL15 Staff of Fire with a couple charges left.
C. Level 7 wizard can now cast an addition CL7 Fireball, after which he's holding a heavy stick. That's kinda nice, sure... but you know what weighs less and costs a WHOLE LOT less money? A scroll.You seem to be suggesting that Mr. Level 7 Wizard can use the staff to cast a CL15 Fireball. Is that correct?
Stock staves of fire are CL8 but that'd still be good for Wiz7 boy there. Plus two more advantages ... one, that staff is good for FIVE fireballs if you give him some time off, and two, it's a heavy stick to whack monsters with.
And three, you can also toss up a WALL OF FIRE if you put some investment into it.
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Okay, there's gotta be a catch to this. Using a higher-CL magic item is never free... surely there's a ridiculously high concentration or caster-level check involved?You seem to be suggesting that Mr. Level 7 Wizard can use the staff to cast a CL15 Fireball. Is that correct?That would be what the rule as written says, yes.
The catch is the expense of the item. And its rarity.
And as Qainna pointed out, a staff of fire is CL 8. So not CL 15, but there are other staves that are that high. E.g., staff of defense.
Okay, there's gotta be a catch to this. Using a higher-CL magic item is never free... surely there's a ridiculously high concentration or caster-level check involved?You seem to be suggesting that Mr. Level 7 Wizard can use the staff to cast a CL15 Fireball. Is that correct?That would be what the rule as written says, yes.
You asked why staves are good. I think you've just found half of it. The other half is that they don't stop being good. Obviously, high CL staves are pricier, and they are harder to recharge (taking higher-level spells).
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Staves are, in general, high level toys. If you're finding staves while you're below their caster level(often 8 or 12) then you're getting them before they really come into their own.
I find it really odd that you like wands but not staves, as staves are just wands with higher than 4th level spells in them. Oh, and potentially many, many more castings of those spells than 50 since staves can be recharged.
Personally I like staves of spells with expensive material components. Sure, you pay for them when the staff is made, but after that it's free castings for life on things like stoneskin, nondetection, and true seeing.
Using your full caster level and save DC means you can use staves for battle spells, not just for the types of spells that work well in wands or scrolls.
Staves are decent if you get to spend a week or two in downtime between each adventure, I bet they're actually useful in PFS, if you could restore more than 1 charge per day they'd be pretty nice.
The only downside is the prices for Staves is ridiculously high. Like so high you'd never buy one and if you find one you'll want to sell it. Only time I've seen staves in use is when the party can't find a settlement that pay the full price.
The only downside is the prices for Staves is ridiculously high. Like so high you'd never buy one and if you find one you'll want to sell it. Only time I've seen staves in use is when the party can't find a settlement that pay the full price.
Fortunately, the solution to that one is pretty easy - if your players are on-board. And that's tone down or get rid of the easy magic item economy.
But, yeah, the way magic items are so readily bought and sold by default will tend toward players selling them for the ready cash in order to get Big 6 items with more frequent utility.
Wait, let me process that one....
What we've been doing is this:
A. Level 7 wizard can cast a CL7 Fireball.
B. Wizard finds a cool CL15 Staff of Fire with a couple charges left.
C. Level 7 wizard can now cast one additional CL7 Fireball, after which he's holding a heavy stick. That's kinda nice, sure... but is it 20,000gp worth of nice? Not really.You seem to be suggesting that Mr. Level 7 Wizard can use the staff to cast a CL15 Fireball. Is that correct?
That's exactly the way it works. It will however be only a CL10 Fireball unless the spell stored in that staff is Fireball (Intensified).
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That's exactly the way it works. It will however be only a CL10 Fireball unless the spell stored in that staff is Fireball (Intensified).Wait, let me process that one....
What we've been doing is this:
A. Level 7 wizard can cast a CL7 Fireball.
B. Wizard finds a cool CL15 Staff of Fire with a couple charges left.
C. Level 7 wizard can now cast one additional CL7 Fireball, after which he's holding a heavy stick. That's kinda nice, sure... but is it 20,000gp worth of nice? Not really.You seem to be suggesting that Mr. Level 7 Wizard can use the staff to cast a CL15 Fireball. Is that correct?
No, it would still be a CL 15 fireball. It would just be capped at 10d6 damage. All other CL dependent variables such as range would still function at CL 15.
No, it would still be a CL 15 fireball. It would just be capped at 10d6 damage. All other CL dependent variables such as range would still function at CL 15.That's exactly the way it works. It will however be only a CL10 Fireball unless the spell stored in that staff is Fireball (Intensified).Wait, let me process that one....
What we've been doing is this:
A. Level 7 wizard can cast a CL7 Fireball.
B. Wizard finds a cool CL15 Staff of Fire with a couple charges left.
C. Level 7 wizard can now cast one additional CL7 Fireball, after which he's holding a heavy stick. That's kinda nice, sure... but is it 20,000gp worth of nice? Not really.You seem to be suggesting that Mr. Level 7 Wizard can use the staff to cast a CL15 Fireball. Is that correct?
That would be true.
The problem is that you are low level. The level required to take the feat craft staff is 11, and the minimum level of a staff is 8. There is a reason for that: it is the highest level category of item (barring artifacts I guess). One thing is that you can have any level of spell in a staff. Want a staff of greater teleport? Fine: infinite if restricted use of greater teleport. Hmm want a wand of greater teleport? Tough s!** you can't. Want a scroll? Fine: pay 2275 gp for a one use item. Half that if you are crafting I guess, but then you could just craft the staff too...
Also action economy 1 staff = 1 move action = many spells
1 scroll/ 1 wand = 1 move action = 1spell/1spell 50 times.
Also fireball in wand or scroll form is poop, dc 14 and (probably) 5d6 yay I feel my standard action and moneyz spent were very useful.
The staff is an item intended to help in a pinch when stuck in a EPL+3 or EPL+4 encounter.
If you don't see the need for a fallback "get out of
jaildeath free" staff, then you are not the target buyer.
Too bad it's usually cheaper to just purchase a 4-party Raise Dead + 2 Restoration contingency more often than not than it is to purchase a staff.
I mean, sure, the staff might also grant some passive benefits to whoever holds it, but most of them aren't particularly overwhelming or valuable for an intended spellcasting buyer, so all you'd really buy it for is the spells and/or not having to use your own spell slots.
There are cheaper and smarter ways to fix those issues than purchasing staves, and to be honest, unless the staff is a McGuffin, they're more valuable as vendor trash than as an actual item to use.
I can't see the benefit of using a staff. They seem way too expensive if you look for variety, and even so, at the level you're gonna use them, you have enough spell slots.
And you can have Wands, Scrolls for utility.
If you're playing a Wizard, waste 2 Feats and get Staff like Wand, and now up to level 4 spell, all your wands are staves, so even less reasons to buy staves
But once you've used up the charges, you can recharge a staff at no extra cost (barring spells with expensive components). That right there makes them very cool.
This is not true...
Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells or regains spell slots, he can also imbue one staff with a portion of his power so long as one or more of the spells cast by the staff is on his spell list and he is capable of casting at least one of the spells. Imbuing a staff with this power restores one charge to the staff, but the caster must forgo one prepared spell or spell slot of a level equal to the highest-level spell cast by the staff
The above quote tells us that no components are used to recharge the staff. It also tells us that the staff can have spells that are not on your spell list, but still use without UMD check.
So a Wizard can use a STAFF OF DEFENSE
STAFF OF DEFENSE
Aura strong abjuration; CL 15thShield (1 charge)
Shield of Faith (1 charge)
Shield other (1 charge)
Shield of law (3 charges)
The bottom 3 spells are Cleric spells.
I can tell you're quite the connoisseur when it comes to fine staffs and so just for you my good sir, if you'll step into my showroom here, I can sell you any staff you like. In fact, you seem like such a nice person I'll even throw in a free wand!
Or if you are a staff magus, the staff doubles as your weapon.
And eventually they serve as a shield as well.
It's not so much staves are the worst thing ever...but they're certainly not good enough, usually, to justify buying one, or even keeping one you found as loot for longer than it takes to roll back to town and sell it for something better.
But once you've used up the charges, you can recharge a staff at no extra cost (barring spells with expensive components). That right there makes them very cool.This is not true...
Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells or regains spell slots, he can also imbue one staff with a portion of his power so long as one or more of the spells cast by the staff is on his spell list and he is capable of casting at least one of the spells. Imbuing a staff with this power restores one charge to the staff, but the caster must forgo one prepared spell or spell slot of a level equal to the highest-level spell cast by the staffThe above quote tells us that no components are used to recharge the staff. It also tells us that the staff can have spells that are not on your spell list, but still use without UMD check.
So a Wizard can use a STAFF OF DEFENSE
The bottom 3 spells are Cleric spells.STAFF OF DEFENSE
Aura strong abjuration; CL 15thShield (1 charge)
Shield of Faith (1 charge)
Shield other (1 charge)
Shield of law (3 charges)
It's the kind of thing you craft and use as a Mystic Theurge.
Staves are nice because that staff you found at level 7 scales up with you so that it functions very well even when your 17th level, It may give you spells to cast you otherwise couldn't cast, and it is rechargeable between adventures for no real investment other than time.
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The extra nice thing about some staves is that they cast spells that would ordinarily use expensive material components, but are charged with spells that don't need expensive material components.
For example, staff of life casts raise dead without a 5000gp diamond, but is charged with heal.
Staves are also especially good for spells that are highly level-dependent and might require frequent use. Dispel magic is a good example, and one that's hard to find on a printed staff (staff of abjuration and staff of the magi, iirc). When you need a dispel, you need it right now, you want the dispel check as high as possible, and you want to be able to cast it a few times in case the dispel check fails. That's perfect for a staff.
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Also, staves are easy to smuggle into areas where more obvious weapons are prohibited. As seen here.
The extra nice thing about some staves is that they cast spells that would ordinarily use expensive material components, but are charged with spells that don't need expensive material components.
For example, staff of life casts raise dead without a 5000gp diamond, but is charged with heal.
Staves are also especially good for spells that are highly level-dependent and might require frequent use. Dispel magic is a good example, and one that's hard to find on a printed staff (staff of abjuration and staff of the magi, iirc). When you need a dispel, you need it right now, you want the dispel check as high as possible, and you want to be able to cast it a few times in case the dispel check fails. That's perfect for a staff.
You're kidding right? Staff of Life is 109k. I could basically cast 20 Raise Dead before breaking even.
If I need that many raise dead, there's a huge problem in the party.
You're kidding right? Staff of Life is 109k. I could basically cast 20 Raise Dead before breaking even.
If I need that many raise dead, there's a huge problem in the party.
That does give me a good idea for a high powered and highly motivated mercenary or covert organization, though. As long as you've got a 9th level cleric willing to blow a 5th level slot per day you can raise 73 of your members per year, assuming the deaths are spread out enough to fall within the days/CL limitation. Not bad at all as an industrial sized health benefit.
Or big temples of Abadar (or nice healing gods) could undercut the competition by selling cheaper Raise Dead than the temple across town.
Also, staves are cheaper then wands.
If you take a staff with three spells, it is cheaper then 3 wands of the same spells, because of the price discount on the staff.
The idea wands have 50 charges so they are better is extremely misleading. Only on things like CLW wands where you exploit the low cost do you ever need to use more then a few charges a day. Trying to buy a wand at the caster level of a staff is murderously expensive, and wands don't automatically scale with your caster level.
now, the 10 charges limit is there because it's a counterpoint to the OLD rules, which were 25 charges, but NON rechargable.
You know, like wands.
And when you did a cost breakdown of staves in 3e, you realized how much they sucked. I pointed this out to SKR, even did a couple breakdowns for him, and he ended up agreeing with me. Which is why you now get bigger and bigger discounts for 2nd and 3rd spells on staves.
Also, staves are cheaper then wands.
If you take a staff with three spells, it is cheaper then 3 wands of the same spells, because of the price discount on the staff.
The idea wands have 50 charges so they are better is extremely misleading. Only on things like CLW wands where you exploit the low cost do you ever need to use more then a few charges a day. Trying to buy a wand at the caster level of a staff is murderously expensive, and wands don't automatically scale with your caster level.
now, the 10 charges limit is there because it's a counterpoint to the OLD rules, which were 25 charges, but NON rechargable.
You know, like wands.
And when you did a cost breakdown of staves in 3e, you realized how much they sucked. I pointed this out to SKR, even did a couple breakdowns for him, and he ended up agreeing with me. Which is why you now get bigger and bigger discounts for 2nd and 3rd spells on staves.
Staves are not worth their price in gold. Wands might have a lower CL, yes, but you're not limited in the amount you can use per day, you can use them non stop, and you don't have to waste precious spell slots to recharge them.
Some staves requires 2 charges, and you can only put 1 in there. So suddenly staves are there if you need a burst in power, or some emergency because you ran out of spells slots.Considering their costs, it's a completely situational item that costs way too much for the benefit it's giving.
Just look at Staff of Defense 62k gold in price.
You've got shield > doesn't scale, only time
Shield of Faith > deflection bonus, probably on ring
Shield Other > it's a level 2 spell slot, you can afford it if you can affordo 62k
Shield of Law > level 8 spell, situational and really? Why do I need this spell instead of protection from chaos?
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I for one absolutely love custom staves. Nothing says "archmage" quite like having one tailor made to your own casting style.
Take some of the following for example:
Aura moderate conjuration and evocation; CL 8th
Slot none; Price 43,200gp; Weight 5 lbs.
Created by a powerful half-elf wizard that revered nature's terrible power, this staff appears to be made of a long slender shard of obsidian and allows use of the following spells:
- wicked weeds (1 charge; as black tentacles, but produces barbed vines instead of black tentacles)
- obsidian flow (1 charge)
- sleet storm (1 charge)
Many staves of nature’s wrath also double as magical spears. Add the costs of the magical spear and the staff of nature’s wrath together and use the spear’s weight value when using this variant.
Requirements Craft Staff, black tentacles, obsidian flow, sleet storm (may vary if made into a spear); Cost 21,600gp
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Aura Moderate conjuration and evocation; CL 9th
Slot –; Price 90,000 gp; Weight 5 lb.
A weapon of revenge carved from orc bone, this staff was created by Corral the diviner to aid her in the destruction of her husband’s murderers. This magical staff possesses the following spells:
- Cone of cold (1 charge)
- Extended acid arrow (1 charge)
- Intensified fireball (1 charge)
- Intensified lightning bolt (1 charge)
- Reach magic missile (long range) (1 charge)
Requirements Craft Staff, Extend Spell, Intensified Spell, Reach Spell, acid arrow, cone of cold, fireball, lightning bolt, magic missile; Cost 45,000 gp
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Aura Strong transmutation; CL 20th
Slot –; Price 85,000 gp; Weight 5 lb.
A powerful weapon carved from the finger bone of a titan, this staff was created by Kang’s ancestors long ago to aid them in the destruction of their enemies. Thought lost with the destruction of their homeland, the grand magus, Kang, multiarmed destroyer of armies, succeeded in recovering the ancient weapon from the annals of history. This magical staff possesses the following spells:
- enlarge person (1 charge)
- monstrous physique IV (2 charges)
- transformation (3 charges)
Requirements Craft Staff, enlarge person, monstrous physique IV, transformation; Cost 45,000 gp
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Aura Strong evocation; CL 13th
Slot –; Price 96,850 gp; Weight 2.5 lb.
Used by Lady Arroway, a powerful fetchling cleric, to better serve her master, the shadowdancer and lord ruler on the Plane of Shadow, Revin Bitter. This instrument appears to be little more than a jet black darkwood quarterstaff. Wherever it goes, light in the immediate vicinity noticeably dims, as though the staff were hungrily trying to consume all radiance. This magical staff possesses the following spells:
- darkness (1 charge)
- lunar veil (2 charges)
Requirements Craft Staff, darkness, lunar veil; Cost 48,750 gp
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Also, staves are cheaper then wands.
If you take a staff with three spells, it is cheaper then 3 wands of the same spells, because of the price discount on the staff.
The idea wands have 50 charges so they are better is extremely misleading. Only on things like CLW wands where you exploit the low cost do you ever need to use more then a few charges a day. Trying to buy a wand at the caster level of a staff is murderously expensive, and wands don't automatically scale with your caster level.
now, the 10 charges limit is there because it's a counterpoint to the OLD rules, which were 25 charges, but NON rechargable.
You know, like wands.
And when you did a cost breakdown of staves in 3e, you realized how much they sucked. I pointed this out to SKR, even did a couple breakdowns for him, and he ended up agreeing with me. Which is why you now get bigger and bigger discounts for 2nd and 3rd spells on staves.
Staves are not worth their price in gold. Wands might have a lower CL, yes, but you're not limited in the amount you can use per day, you can use them non stop, and you don't have to waste precious spell slots to recharge them.
Some staves requires 2 charges, and you can only put 1 in there. So suddenly staves are there if you need a burst in power, or some emergency because you ran out of spells slots.
Considering their costs, it's a completely situational item that costs way too much for the benefit it's giving.Just look at Staff of Defense 62k gold in price.
You've got shield > doesn't scale, only time
Shield of Faith > deflection bonus, probably on ring
Shield Other > it's a level 2 spell slot, you can afford it if you can affordo 62k
Shield of Law > level 8 spell, situational and really? Why do I need this spell instead of protection from chaos?
You're looking at it wrong.
You're looking at it from the attitude of "I only need this spell for a moment, why have a staff?"
The proper perspective is "I need this spell to cast very, very effectively, and I don't have it otherwise. What do I use?"
I agree the Staff of Defense is probably not what you want. All of those are buff spells. They are either redundant or only need briefly.
But let's use a Staff of Fire. Burning Hands 1, Fireball 2 Wall of Fire 3. 19k. Default CL of 8.
The cost of three wands to do what the staff can do is 6000 + 18000 + 24,000 = 48,000.
and that's for a LOW saving throw DC.
When are you ever going to need 50 Burning Hands?
50 Fireballs?
50 Walls of Fire?
Do you routinely walk onto battlefields with thousands of combatants where you might need something so extravagantly spendy?
MIGHT you sometime need 5 fireballs or 3 walls of fire or an emergency burning hands?
Yes. You're an adventurer, not an artillery crew.
Take the caster level to 10. That set of wands is now 60k.
Take it to 15. We're up to 90k!
Staves aren't for temporary spells, one offs or the like. They are for spells you need right now, that you don't want going off at minimum CL or minimum save DC, and which you don't have in memory. And which you might need more then one of abruptly.
Wands are waaaay too pricey to do the job staves can do.
That fireball takes two days of giving up a 4th level spell to cast once.
It's not that staves are too expensive, its that wands are too cheap. How many CLW scrolls can you purchase for 750? Only 30 making the wands almost a 50% discount over scrolls. But that is a different argument and doesn't change the cost difference that is already in place.
I like staves for flavor & flexibility. Flavor is simply that the stored magic has a common theme, usually depicted in physical description. A wand is a "thin baton." No phoenix feathers? No ash wood? No curses from the previous owner? *yawn* While you can add your own flavor, you can't add the theme.
Flexibility has already been mentioned, but here is another. I don't have to memorize fireball if I have a staff of fire, I can prepare blink, fly or slow instead. Equally usable but not as obscure as tiny hut or illusiory script (for which I will take a scroll). Don't need a fireball? Well I have two other options in the staff as well. Charlie Bell & others have also commented on gaining access to spells not on your list. The bard gains access to restoration, & remove disease by having the cure spells on his list. RESTORATION! Yes a UMD is needed, but it is a static number that even a first level bard can reach 25% of the time. Even for a blaster sorcerer a staff adds a lot of versatility.
A staff of Limited Wish (and nothing else) at one per charge costs 117,000 if you craft it yourself. That's not a bad deal at all for flexibility and surge ability at high level. And you can cut it down if you only want to carry around 5 uses.
(Wish costs over 1.3 million for one per charge, FYI.)
Which isn't much of a problem if you have downtime between adventures and can recharge. Indeed, just walking to your destination may give you more than enough time to recharge your staff. XD In many games, the recharge isn't as much of a problem as you might think.
If you can afford 20k on a Staff, I'm pretty sure you already have teleport and scrying, or at least some sort of fast movement like overland flight.
I think most of the Staves are filled with useless things.
Like... Burning hands, why do I need that again? It's a level 1 slot, putting in a wand it's just upping the price.
Wall of Fire, I don't think you need to spam this, having it on the Staff only increases price and recharge cost.
The thing is that Staves are badly designed so they have a higher cost, which doesn't make any sense.
I don't deny their utility, I just think that most of the time, unless it's a custom staff, the price is not worth
A staff of Limited Wish (and nothing else) costs 117,000 if you craft it yourself. That's not a bad deal at all for flexibility and surge ability at high level.
Is that a custom staff? I don't see it on the list of staves
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That fireball takes two days of giving up a 4th level spell to cast once.
Another way of looking at it is that while not adventuring not casting a spell is a waste of resources. A waste I say! :) The staff lets a caster save up to cast more.
Wizard: I cast fireball.
GM: Where? You are sailing on a ship in a well policed trade route?
Wizard: Well I don't have to have a target, but I spent an hour this morning and I want see _something_ for my time....