Letric's page

The item Poisoner's Gloves can deliver personal range spells.

It would only work for Alchemist that have the infusion discovery, but it's a good way to deliver spells.

Won't work for potions, can't have potions with range personal

Ryan you said,

Ryan wrote:

It is in a very real way an attempt to turn feats in general but combat feats specifically into vigilante talents...

and Letric said,

Letric wrote:

I wouldn't apply any of this to any casters.

Full casters don't need help.
I'd consider it for 3/4 caster, just maybe.

Both of those are telling me to give preferential treatment to combat feats and/or martial characters.

Martial characters do have a problem with having diminishing returns at higher level. But that is only a problem for higher levels, not the lower levels which are balanced relatively fine. Do notice how most classes with talent go from: Talents to Advanced Talents at level 10; That concept might be what is missing from feats, not necessarily scaling. Which is part of why feat tax removal rules can be so weird, most people target the lower level feats making things heavily unbalanced early on, but the mid-late level feats still have the same problem of not doing enough.

I think careful consideration and reexamination of feats is more time consuming but ultimately better than a quick/rushed "1 size fits all" approach.

Yes. Because I don't think any melee should need a feat to trip someone. Any caster can do that with 1 spell.

My problem is versatility. Giving this option makes it possible for melee to actually have options on what do to without having to invest every single feat into tripping.

You could tell me "but it's overpowered". No, it's not. A fighter (having so many feats) that can specialize in 2 handed combat and archery! Now a flying creature it's not impossible for the fighter to deal with, she just takes out her bow dealing 1d8+4 with all those beautiful feats!
Instead what we have now, is that the fighter needs to wait for the wizard to cast fly.

And imo, yes, casters need no help in this game, none at all.

I wouldn't apply any of this to any casters.
Full casters don't need help.
I'd consider it for 3/4 caster, just maybe.

Anything that favors martials is not unbalancing for me.
I mean, at level 3 a Wizard can make a lot of enemies blind by just using a spell.
Meanwhile a fighter gets a +1 to attack, and that's something he doesn't really need that much help with.

Look at magic items. Wizards get access to Metamagic without having to meet prerequisites by using rods, and apply it to all of their spells.

Melee don't have equivalent.

Honestly, that idea of choosing Weapon Focus and gettings access to 1 chain is awesome.
If you want another chain, take another WF.

It finally gives martial options to do stuff.

Is the enemy immune to fear? Good then I use my Trip line.

Does enemy have 4 legs? Then I switch to bullrush or something else

Lady Asharah wrote:

Instead I came up with this system (that I haven't had a chance to playtest so it can understandably increase the power of the PCs beyond intended range):

Any feat that is the beginning of a chain, evolves with the character. Whenever you meet prerequisites for another feat down the chain line, you can select that feat and combine it with the previous one. If a feat is a prerequisite to multiple possible paths, you may only select one path for this free upgrade, any additional branches need to be picked as full feats.

Weapon Focus is a good example, it's a requirement for a plethora of feats and a +1 to hit with one weapon is REALLY BORING for a feat. This would allow you to pick one entire path that Weapon Focus is a prerequisite for at a cost of a single feat.

I would have to disagree as it would make feats more powerful than class features at that point. What you are describing is going really unbalance things in the worse way possible I did play this with a group and it made me want a way to tax or limit feats.

How does having Power Attack for free unbalance things? Or having a Weapon Focus that actually works, and it doesn't make you completely useless with any other weapon that isn't the WF one?

Bed of iron and/or keep watch if you are concerned about your camp being attacked.

Ears of the city and commune with birds offer interesting investigation tools.

I wonder if using Keep watch allows you to "sleep" in medium/full armor.

Great suggestions, added to the list.

Commune with birds is interesting! If I'm on the outside it could provide insight and it's not tied to a roll, just MD

Meh. Unarmed strikes don't even scare the lion. I would wager that the highest level martial artist on the planet doesn't manage to scare, much less damage, a lion, either. But here we are talking about martial stuff in a PF1 forum. Lol. We all know that PF1 was written for spellcasters and everyone else can politely suck it.

I'm still surprised at anyone playing a martial.

What do you do Fighty McFight: full attack

What do you do Fighty McFight: full attack

What do you do Fighty McFight: full attack

What do you do Fighty McFight: I trip the enemy.

DM: I'm sorry, do you have the 10 feat chain? Otherwise that's a roll with -40.

Wizard: I use magic missile with toppling.

Scrolls are cheaper than alc fire if you can use em. 25 gp savings when you only get 150 apiece is kind of a big deal. The individual creatures in most low level swarms have very bad hp, so catching them in the cone is functionally a nuke button. 1d4 is absolutely fine.

Infernal healing isnt an evil-descriptor spell, it just makes you detect as evil for a while. Not going to be a problem the vast majority of the time and it's actually more resource-efficient out of combat than clw. If you know how you detect is going to matter before the duration is up, THATS when you use clw.

Color spray is a bit spaghetti at the wall, but remember this topic is for first level spells. Most mobs where 1st is worth using wont have great saves so the low DC doesnt matter, and if any effects manage to stick, you basically win.

Nethys says it [evil], confused face.

Well I can forgo Color Spray. I'm looking for level 1 spells that I can use no matter the level.
Bless for example or Touch of The Sea.

The idea is to be able to pull anything from any spell lists, that's why I'm looking for buffs.

Burning Hands does sound decent for those tricky situations where you have to deal with swarms, would've never thought about it.

Magic weapon is always good to have in your pocket. Wands of CLW or Infernal Healing are functionally mandatory in any party for after-battle cleanup. Burning hands is great for dunking on swarms. Color spray is color spray.

That's just off the top of my head

To share personal range spells (nerieds grace on your party paladin!) You need to make a scroll/wand/staff and have them UMD it, or put it in a ring of spell storing. They may still have to UMD.

Infernal Healing no, because evil, bla bla bla.

Why would Burning Hands be useful against swarms? Isn't just better to use Alchemist fire? 1d4 damage sounds low.

Rays aren't weapons and touch attacks are not unarmed strikes

How is touching someone not an unarmed strike? The action is the same.

You strike someone.

I'd say not taking a -4 to attacks is a high degree of proficiency.

Then the base should be 0, not -4.

ah. strange. concept.

There shouldn't be any tax. It's stupid.
Any caster gets access to what? 50 spells per level?
And the fighter gets +1 to attack? WOW, that must be broken!

I'd favor anything that is melee range.
Ranged combat would get some penalty because it already excels at doing damage without any danger.

So, I'm rolling an Oracle full support with Bodyguard and Succor Mystery and Spirit Guide archetype.

I will use UMD and my WBL to buy scrolls/wands (PFS legal only spells) of spells I could use.

I need

- buffs that help hit ghosts/incorporeal things
- ANY good level 1 spell to cast from a scroll/wand.
- spells to buff allies! This is the important thing, I want them to be the target of the spells, not me.

I don't care about class, anything.
I have 13 WIS 16 CHA > this covers all Sorcerer/Bard spells, Wis covers Druid, ranger, all wisdom. Only ones out are Wizard only spells (if there are any)

Need suggestions on Druid/Ranger/other classes as well to buy scrolls!

The idea is to be the ultimate buffer using anything at my disposal.

If you know of a spell to SHARE spells with range of :YOU great!

Well, I don't usually put points into spellcraft unless I'm a wizard.
I find myself failing the roll most of the times, unless I have an INT bonus.

I will try to remember if I ever saw a Paladin with ranks in Spellcraft lol.

But good analysis!

On the other hand, even if the Oracle doesn't have Bless as one of their spells known they can still use a wand of Bless without rolling anything. How does that factor in?

I'm mostly curious because I can cast anything from the Cleric spell list, be it a scroll or wand.

The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
The user must have the spell on her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.

If that is the case, it means that Read Magic is a must for every single spellcaster.

Look at what wands (spell trigger section) says:

The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it.

How does a Paladin do that? They don't have Read Magic, they don't have Spellcraft.
Does that mean that the name of the spell is enough, then it also should be when talking about spells, either in Combat or outside.

I'm curious about this situation.
Party Wizard identifies the spell being cast as "Bless".

Does an Oracle know every single spell on her spell list?

So, if the Wizard identifies the spell and just tells me "it's Bless", do I know the effects as long as it's on my spell list?

How can spellcasters tell this information in combat if one of them didn't identify the spell?

Giantslayer is absolutely the most 1e/2e adventure path Paizo has put out. Its super nostalgic for against the giants, feels a lot like it, throws powerful magic at you the same way old 1e modules would.

The problem is people have nostalgia for dungeon crawls but really don't enjoy them in the moment as much as they seem to remember enjoying them.

I've had good experiences with the dungeon crawl style adventure and bad.

The good experiences all came in parties where everyone took advantage of the take 10 rules there was a character with the trap spotter rogue talent and some means to always take 10 on perception, and stealth and a caster who could cast status. There was a whole system where the scout would move through the dungeon, monitored by status, unlocking doors but not opening them, disabling traps and drawing a map as he goes by taking 10. The gm would stop drawing when take 10 didn't succeed or there were no other places to go without opening a door and standard play would resume with a partially drawn map tossed over the gm screen.

The bad experiences had no autosearch for traps, a party that didn't understand take 10 and had no real plan for dungeon crawling so it would progress with the scout checking every 10 feet for traps like the rules say you should, rolling a die and comparing through the entire dungeon. The party would open one door, kill the monsters, ransack the room, move to the next room, kill the monsters search the entire room. The dungeon took forever to get through, like 4 sessions if im remembering right.

I had no idea you could do that. It's incredible!

It’s really just a balancing decision. It’s so that cheeky kids like me don’t run halfling with helpful alongside benevolent on a shield and armor and end up granting like a +7 to AC at level 10 just by expending an AoO.

Your best bet with bodyguard is to run a high high damage build. Otherwise they’re just going to ignore you either way. It’s better to build a character that says “target me, or else.” And then also run bodyguard. Max HP and damage will always outlive high armor.

I'm a support Oracle with succor.

With reach build and sharing a Teamwork feat with Spirit Guide Oracle Archetype up to 3+CHA times/day, I'm covered.
I only lose 1 level multiclass to fighter.

Your assessment is correct as far as I'm aware. Aid another in combat does use an attack roll, so yes you take the -1 and yes you lose the shield bonus to AC from the Buckler. To remedy this could find some way to gain a natural attack or get improved unarmed strike and simply use a headbutt, kick, etc. to avoid using your shield-arm and thus maintain the shield bonus and avoid the -1 to the attack roll for aid another (the same way using a one-handed weapon with the buckler would work).

Holding your 2H weapon in your shield-arm's hand while casting, then returning it to normal afterwards works.

Benevolent works fine, since it's entirely unrelated to your shield (Benevolent can only be placed on armor, not on shields. While there is some overlap in different magical abilities that can go on either, benevolent is strictly armor). And even if benevolent *could* go on shields, it's not relevant what your shield bonus is, only what the enhancement bonus of item it's on. So if you have a +1 Benevolent armor, you only add +1 to your normal aid another bonus (typically +2, making a total of +3).

If your group has allowed a homebrew for Benevolent on shields, it's the same thing. You're only adding on the enhancement bonus of the shield, not your shield bonus or any other additions.

For some reason I'd thought Benevolent applied to Shields. I don't really need a shield then, I was completely wrong. The only reason I could use it for is having more AC, but I'm using a Reach Bodyguard build, so no need for it then.

Natural attacks are a good way indeed but they lack reach, most of them at least, so it won't be a viable option for me.

@Oni_Sloth
I mean, you lengthy post was good.
But you're talking a level 1 Spell.
A Wizard's level 1 spells has a DC of 16. No wizard doesn't start with 20 at level, unless you make them so.

Anything humanoid won't likely make the save.
If it's undead campaign they have other stuff at their disposal. Grease, Disrupt Undead, etc.

Now, if at level 1 you're sending enemies with +10 to Wills... nothing I can do.

Average CR for a party at level 1 won't likely make the save. If you have a spellcaster to counter that same wizard, that's basically like saying "i fight overpowered with more overpowered"

Letric wrote:

Lelomenia wrote:

Commander’s Helm is PFS legal, yes?

Not for Harrying Partners, since you they need to meet prerequisites.

i was thinking in terms of just using Share Spells teamwork feat; or was your previous post saying that there are PFS-specific rules for how that works?

Yes, you can't share Bonded mind or any feats that have it as prerequisite. The other members need to have those.

Commander’s Helm is PFS legal, yes?

Not for Harrying Partners, since you they need to meet prerequisites.

Sharing teamwork feats is tricky too. There's a few classes which can do it - cavalier, dwarven scholar bard, at least one fighter archetype - but the shared training spell is apparently not allowed in PFS. No overlap but you could multiclass to do cavalier 1 / alchemist X I guess. A ring of tactical precision is cheaper than a ring of spell storing, but still not actually cheap.

If you just want one person to share with then a hunter shares teamwork feats with their companion and gets share spells too.

There's also the Spirit Guide Oracle! You get the wandering spirit and you can share up to 3+CHA times/days, it's great.

It's been really tricky, couldn't find a decent way. I'm using Succor archetype to get + bonus to Aid Another for a pure support no damage build.
I will check Alchemist, but Cavalier limits you at 1/day with Tactician.
It would seem there is no way of doing it.

Be an alchemist with the infusion discovery, or get possession type spells and find out how this GM in particular rules how spells cast while possessing work. A ring of spell storing should work.

I couldn't find anything else.

I like to stick to rules, because as a player I know what to expect.
Now, when MD forgets rules, I will tell it after the session, to not make things slower on the battlefield.
But, if the rule plays in our favor, I have to speak up. So it's a 50/50.
Most DMs forget about cover and firing into melee. And I'm usually pissed about it because if I went archer i'd take Precise Shot and some way to ignore cover, so a random mage at level 1 shooting without -4 and enemy not +4AC pisses me off

I need help understanding how this works

Benefit: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an offhand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler’s Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler’s Armor Class bonus until your next turn. You can’t make a shield bash with a buckler.

So, if during my turn I attack with my 2h weapon with reach and buckler, I get -1 to attack and lose the Shield AC.

What about if I'm using Aid Another? My questions are:

- Do I lose the Shield AC if I use Aid Another with Bodyguard? I think so.
- What if I cast spells? Nothing forbids me of switching weapon to offhand, cast with main hand, and get weapon to main hand again. I think not.

From what I can gather, Aid Another will always work, even with benevolent. The only difference is that I will take a -1 to attack rolls to perform the Aid Another Action.
If I use the Aid Another Action, since I made an attack roll, I will lose the Shield AC, but nothing forbids me to keep giving it to my allies.

Casting spells works exactly as using a Light Shield, so if I cast a spell I won't lose the Shield AC

So, I ask this because I could either take Weapon Trick polearm to accept a -2 to all attacks, but being able to use a Shield, or just take a Buckler and lose the AC, yes, I will be more vulnerable, but I'm not the one doing damage, and I'll be always behind allies (frontline). In this case I take -1 to attacks

How can I achieve this in PFS, sharing spells to my allies?

Bonded mind and Share spells is not allowed unless everyone takes the feat, which defeats the purpose.

Improved share spells doesn't work either.

What are the ways to do it?

Hm, I understand your issue.
It's a matter on how you phrase things when speaking to NPCs.
If they're talking about an issue and the non diplomatic PC has a question, and the NPC refuses to answer, the diplomatic PC could take the lead and rephrase the question in a more diplomatic way.

This won't affect the roll, and everyone is able to participate.

If you give skill points for everyone, the diplomatic one might feel his efforts are not rewarded, after all she might have spent quite a bit on buffing diplomacy to no avail, when everyone else is getting it for free.
I believe PC should be able to contribute to the conversation, but if they don't have diplomacy they shouldn't be demanding things. They will bring new ideas to the conversation that the Lead can use.
It creates a more dynamic conversation

I play a Cleric(Evangelist). There are several kinds of support:

1) Combat. Your reach weapon controls space, preventing enemies from doing what they want.
2) Combat. Spells: Bless, Prayer, Blessings of Fervor, Hunter's Blessing/ These spells buff everyone. Other spells (divine favor, bull's strength, ...) can buff one player at a time and are less efficient.
3) HR Recovery. Channel, healing spells. Usually do after combat.
4) Condition removal. Assorted spells. Usually do after combat.
Additionally, you have some spells (like endure elements, water breathing, ...) that are support spells used when you start the day.

One trick I have well used it to leave open slots. This lets me customize my prepared spells throughout the day to address needs. Taking 15 minutes to pick up a Raise Dead is way better than stopping for the day and waiting 8 hours for the next day to get it.

As for other things, there are some magic items to look into:
Ring of Tactical Precision for sharing a teamwork feat
Dervish Sikke to buff your inspiration

/cevah

I feel like Evangelist is bland. My only power are the spells.

Oracle 7/Constable 3 works, but I'm getting that Harrying Partners at level 10, and it seems soooo far away. Also the wording on the ability, well, it's confusing.
A full bab class could get Harrying Partners at level 6.

Oracle Spirit Guide 7/Fighter 1, I can get it at level 8, but I need to use a Standard Action to share the feat, and it only works 3+CHA times per day.

Bard can share Teamwork feats, but it will disable inspire courage.
Skald can do it, but cost 2 rounds of performance, and also disable many things with their Inspire rage song.

I don't see any issues with that. As long as Flurry is done with your unarmed attacks or monk weapons.

The only thing I'd note it's be careful with reach weapons. Unless you're very good positioning with your allies, you need Phalanx Formation. Any sort of cove (even soft cover) prevents attacks of opportunity.

Not sure how relevant this is, and not trying to discourage, but take a look

Go to Pathfinder Bestiary with Statistics

I've heard people say that it's really hard to keep up with CMD.

Also interesting to read

Paizo Inc..

This is the build I want to play. I have to take Constable at level 8 when I have BAB +6 to get Harrying Partners and use it as Bonus Feat from Tactician
At level 10 I can share this feat almost free with that Squad Commander ability.

Meanwhile, up to level 10, I can use Bodyguard up to 3 times per turn for Aid Another, and my standard to assist allies with Aid Another or just cast a spell. Keep in mind from level 4 and on, my Aid Another provides a +6, because I have Helpful (from halfling), which grants +4 when I use Aid another.

1 Succor 1 - Feat: Combat Reflexes
1 Succor 1 - Perfect Aid (Ex): Bodyguard, Aid + 1
1 Succor 1 - Human: Skill Focus alternative racial trait: UMD - Herbalist/Perception/Diplomacy

2 Succor 2 - No feats

3 Succor 3 - Feat: Phalanx Formation
3 Succor 3 - Teamwork Mastery (Ex, Sp): TEAMWORK FEAT

4 Succor 4 - Perfect Aid (Ex): Bodyguard, Aid + 2

5 Succor 5 - Feat: Shield Focus

6 Succor 6 - No Feats

7 Succor 7 - Feat: Shield Brace

8 Constable 1 - Bonus Teamwork Feat: Harrying Partners

9 Constable 2 - Feat: Swift Aid

10 Constable 3 - Squad Commander > Harrying Partners online

10 Succor 8

Now, I have a couple of questions:

- Is Shield Brace worth it? I need 2 feats to make my reach weapon work with Shield. The idea is to get more AC, and eventually Benevolent armor to provide its enhancement bonus to AC when using Aid Another. Keep in mind, I'll have 14 DEX and Heavy Armor, but that's it, and I'm in melee range, behind my allies.
- Should I focus in UMD for the best support options? With my Curse (that gives +4 UMD at level 5, and makes it class skill), I'll be rocking quite a lot. This will cost me the Bonus Feat to make it Skill Focus option.
- Does my STR matter? I'm planning to make it 10 STR, since I won't have any feats on combat, makes no sense to use a 14 when I just need to hit 10 attack for Aid Another.

Then we have archetypes. I REALLY wanted to take this one Divine Herbalist but I can't find a way, because it replaces 1st and 7th Revelations.

Are there any archetypes I can take without ruining my current build above? How could I arrange this build to be useful during leveling and get this Archetype.

I'm trying to find a way to get access to Remove conditions, and that archetype is perfect. Also, Dual-Cursed seems to broken, and I'm not sure how much my DM will like it, I'll have to ask though.

I could also use this:

Spirit Guide to get this Wandering Spirit Tribe and I wouldn't have to multiclass to Constable for 3 levels, but I still need 1 level of something else to get +1 BAB and as many feats as possible, so at level 7 Oracle I have at least 6 BAB and pick Harrying Partners, which is when I get the ability:

At 7th level, she gains the spirit ability of her current bonded spirit.

Letric wrote:

The only problem I've found is the action cost: Immediate action.

I'd argue that negating another person's good roll is somewhat toxic. They rolled well and made the attack / save, against all odds? No, they have to roll again. And this can happen each round, with no save or immunity.

I doubt many GMs actually like such a mechanic being forced upon them. And there is always the risk for the players that they are forced to do rerolls.

Well, I can totally see people being fine with it ("part of the game" etc.), reroll doesn't necessarily mean a bad second roll and fate manipulation is a very thematic thing. But personally I would have preferred a sidebar "this is not for every table".

I do agree on this. I think it's way too broken.

Just to clarify that:

My Turn 1 - I use swift action to cast quickened spell

Enemy turn 1 - Enemy attacks and I use Misfortune to make them reroll.

My turn 2 - I cannot use a swift action because I used an immediate action between my last turn and thos one.

You always have an immediate action available between turns, but if you use an immediate action then you lose your next swift action (the immediate action counts as your following swift action).

Thanks for the clarification. I was mostly worried I wouldn't be able to use Swift Aid on my turn because something could happen after that required me to use Misfortune. But as explained, I won't be able to use Swift Aid if I happened to use Misfortune, which is great for me.

Letric wrote:

If I use a Swift Action on MY turn, am I able on use an Immediate action later, until my next turn begins?

Yes. Using an immediate action costs you your next turn's swift action. After the end of your turn, you can use an immediate again.

This is fantastic! It won't cause any issues with my Swift Aid action, it's amazing.

Thanks!

Just be careful, I'm not sure how Combat Patrol is more specific than the general rule of AoO, but if allies or anything provides soft cover, you can't execute AoO, you need Phalanx Formation for that.
Also remember, that soft cover provides +4 AC to enemies you're trying to hit.

From my reading you're only allowed to make more AoO, but the feat doesn't make you qualify for them automatically.

Edit, rule referenced:
You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you.

Soft Cover

Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.

The only problem I've found is the action cost: Immediate action.

If I use a Swift Action on MY turn, am I able on use an Immediate action later, until my next turn begins?

From my point of view it's extremely powerful, considering Divine Interference it's a level 11 feat, and requires burning a spell slot, and only works on attacks and enemies, while Misfortune can also works on allies and on any type of creature.

I couldn't even find if it was a mind-affecting thing, and it's not, it's just an ability.

And, the downside? I mean, I can take Covetous and Plagued, level Plagued and get immunity to sickened, so I have no downside on Covetous except for having to pay some thousands GP on clothes.

They nerfed what? That's a NPC archetype already!

Curses have a misleading name. A curse is a net benefit in all but two cases, getting two of them is more net benefit.

Well Majordomo is not legal for PFS, that's why I meant

Your hand is gripping the shield, so it can't perform the "measured and precise movement of the hand" required to cast a spell.
To make an example it is like wearing a baseball glove. You can grab an item with that hand, but you can't type something on a cellular phone.

Shield brace doesn't give you a free hand, you are still using the spear or polearm with two hands, read the benefits:

Shield Brace wrote:

Benefit(s): You can use a two-handed weapon sized appropriately for you from the polearm or spears weapon group while also using a light, heavy, or tower shield with which you are proficient. The shield’s armor check penalty (if any) applies to attacks made with the weapon.

Nowhere it says that you use the weapon with only one hand.

What it does is that it allow you to use your shield arm to wield the shield and the polearm at the same time.
On the other hand, you get the benefit of using the polearm two handed.

I suppose it is meant to reproduce how the Greeks used their sarissa together with a shield. In RL that requires a specific kind of shield, different from the ones generally used during the middle ages, but Pathfinder allows it to work with all shields.

From my point of view it doesn't really matter, as long as I can use a Light Shield I can move my weapon to that hand to cast a spell.

My character is planning an aid another build, so even if I don't apply STR 1 1/2 it's not an issue.

Letric wrote:

Does this mean you can activate this ability after the die stopped rolling? So if they get a 20 I can't deny it?

You use the ability after the dice is rolled, but before the GM announces the result. Even if the result is obvious (e.g. natural 20), you can still use it.

Letric wrote:

Misfortune and Fortune don't seem that good to me, but wherever I look this archetype seems to come around, but I fail to see why.

Misfortune is amazingly versatile. It can save party members by rerolling enemy crits, or force the enemy to reroll successful saves (you don't know the enemy's bonus, but you can usually guess). But that's not all - Misfortune is not limited to enemies, which means youm can use it to make party members reroll failed saves, or crucial attack rolls, concentration checks, whatever. Only once per day per target, but that's still an amazing ability that would be worth taking for the use on friendly targets alone; the package deal that you get is a real steal.

Fun fact: The Serendipity Shaman can select the Fortune revelation, but that archetype's version of Misfortune is way nerfed. Guess that archetype's writer also thought the ability very powerful!

Also, you get two additional revelations, and Fortune isn't bad, either (rerolling failed saves can literally save your life).

Depending on your build and curses selected, Oracle's Burden can be rather powerful - I like the combination of Covetous and Blackened.

Ok, now that makes sense. It's extremely powerful then.

I wanted to take this and I was considering 2 curses:

- Deep One. I plan to use Heavy Armor, -5 ft speed nullified
- Covetous. I need UMD, I get it as class skill and +4 to check, for me it's amazing.

I understand now why it's op, I will ask DM if he's ok with that.

It's extremely powerful then.

Those 2 curses are pretty good, and have minimal impact on my character.

On the other hand, I can't believe this is PFS legal, I'm shocked. They're nerfing things like Majordomo archetype and not this

I don't understand.
It doesn't seem that good, you suffer completely from 1 curse, and you get, what, Ill omen spell?

Misfortune and Fortune don't seem that good to me, but wherever I look this archetype seems to come around, but I fail to see why.

Does this mean you can activate this ability after the die stopped rolling? So if they get a 20 I can't deny it?

Isn't this ability inherently broken?

If you want to help others, you could go with an Investigator. Investigators get all of the skills you were looking for; they get Effortless Aid as an Investigator Talent, meaning you can do either move action aid or pop an inspiration point to use it as a swift action (meaning you could do it up to three times in a round potentially); and if you take the Infusion discovery your allies will really appreciate your buffs. Halflings or halfling-raised people with with the Helpful trait are now handing out some SERIOUS bonuses for Aid Another.

Just a thought. I haven't gotten a chance to play an Investigator and they seem QUITE interesting.

Effortless Aid is AMAZING.

I wasn't sure about Infusion because they need to drink the potion, but I'm making personal buffs available to the party, but on the other hand the action economy is too important as well.

I NEED to dip into Cavalier to share Teamwork Feats, but in case anyone reads this I also found the following:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/archetypes/paizo-oracl e-archetypes/spirit-guide

Spirit Guide gets access to a Shaman Spirit class feature.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/shaman/spirits/tribe-shaman -spirit/

Tribe Shaman spirit gets you a free TW Feats, and you can share ONE of the TW feats you know.

It does take a standard action, but you can share it 3+CHA times per day. This for an Oracle is just amazing.
You get this at level 7, being a full caster.

I would prefer this to Oracle because they're not full caster, but I've already made this build, so I'm sticking with it.
This mean as Shaman/Oracle with that archetype you don't need to dip into Cavalier to share TW Feats

Letric wrote:

There is a 3.5 FAQ where it says they can't. They basically have to move the main hand weapon shield weapon, cast, and then wait, because doing that is move action.

Paizo never clarified that, so technically it still holds

No. FAQs for 3.5 have absolutely no effect on Pathfinder, as the two games are seperate.

Meirril wrote:

If the shield hand was free, you'd be able to wield weapons with it, right? It isn't free, its somewhat constrained. But...how constrained? Enough to prevent making somatic components with that hand? Its unclear.

The shield is strapped to your arm, which prevents free movement with the arm - something that's necessary to swinging a weapon or thrusting with it. Somatic component is movement of the hand alone, you don't need to get force behind it. We know that removing or re-grabbing a two-handed weapon are both free actions, I presume the same is true for the "grip it with your hand" part of a shield. So, free action to ungrip (shield stays on your arm thanks to the straps), cast spell, free action to regrip. Since a heavy shield so so heavy that you need to grip it at all times, the above only works with light shields.

GotAFarmYet? wrote:

Why not take the feat eschew materials?

for most spells you would no longer need material components.

Because it doesn't help with the somatic components. Plus, a feat's a feat.

Isn't PF 1 backwards compatible? And those FAQs apply here as well?

Anyway, yeah, if that can be done for 2 Handed weapon, it can be done for Weapon + Shield, it's the same concept, my hand is free.

Thanks! That FAQ clearly made things clearer xD

Anyway, as you can see, many have different opinions on the matter

Letric wrote:

I'm confused. How many hands do I need? 1 for handling the DF, another one for somatic?

No, you can do both of those things with one free hand. You just don't HAVE a free hand if you are already holding both a weapon and a light shield.

This is why I'm confused

Shield, Light Steel: You strap a Shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use Weapons with it.

It says I can carry items, I mean, carrying items means my hand is free, isn't it?

I never heard of Divine casters having trouble casting while carrying weapon and shield. It makes sense if Arcane casters would. In parituclar, Magi don't use shields. Arcane Archers don't, but they use a proper 2 handed weapon and tend to use it properly. I think most Wizards and Sorcerers have little business holding real weapons and shields anyway.

There is a 3.5 FAQ where it says they can't. They basically have to move the main hand weapon shield weapon, cast, and then wait, because doing that is move action.

Paizo never clarified that, so technically it still holds

Final Build
I might go Skill Focus racial option for UMD, and my regular feat by Combat Reflexes.
The only limitation is not having it as Class Skill, but when taking Skill Focus UMD, I'll be level 8, so that would be
8 Ranks + 3 CHA + 3 Skill Focus = 14
The Skill Focus option would also give me bonuses to Perception at level 1.

If Perfect Aid stacks with Helpful at level 4 I'm giving +6 when using Bodyguard to AC, eventually I'll get Swift Aid, and every turn I can pump my ally attacks by +6.
Inspire Courage wasn't scaling that well, and I could only use Aid Another defensively, because I had to use my Standard to aid, instead of casting a spell.
This way I could potentially aid 2 allies in one turn.

1 Succor 1 - H: Combat Reflexes
1 Succor 1 - Perfect Aid (Ex): Bodyguard, Aid + 1
1 Succor 1 - Feat: FREE >

2 Succor 2 - No feats

3 Succor 3 - Feat: Phalanx Formation
3 Succor 3 - Teamwork Mastery (Ex, Sp): TEAMWORK FEAT

4 Succor 4 - Perfect Aid (Ex): Aid + 2

5 Succor 5 - Feat: Shield Focus

6 Succor 6 - No Feats

7 Constable 1 - Feat: Shield Brace
7 Constable 1 - Bonus Teamwork Feat: Harrying Partners

8 Constable 2 - No Feats

9 Constable 3 - Feat: Swift Aid
9 Constable 3 - Squad Commander > Harrying Partners online

10 Succor 7

The usual workaround is to move the weapon to your light shield hand as a free action. Then you have a free hand for casting. Then move your weapon back to your main hand as a free action when you finish casting. But most people seem to ignore all of that silliness and just let clerics cast with a weapon and shield.

Well, honestly, it makes sense. The hand is free according to shield description. Clerics get shield prof.

Thanks!

If you have a light shield in one hand and a weapon in the other then, unless you have more than two arms, you don't have a hand free and cannot cast spells with somatic components. However, you CAN hold another object in the same hand, so you'd be ok holding a divine focus.

With a buckler, which is worn on the forearm rather than held, you CAN cast a spell, but you lose the buckler bonus to AC that round... unless you have the Unhindering Shield feat.

Shield Brace allows you to use a two-handed weapon in one hand by bracing it against a light/heavy/tower shield held in another hand. It does not grant you a 'free hand', and thus you still can't cast spells with somatic components.

The feat you are looking for is Shielded Mage

I'm confused. How many hands do I need? 1 for handling the DF, another one for somatic? So I can never use a weapon if I'm casting?

Shielded Mage is not useful for me because I want to use a Reach weapon

If Shield Brace allows me to use 2H weapon as 1handed, what is forbidding me to switch the weapon to my shield hand and cast with my free hand and then return the weapon to my original hand?

The clawhand shield is a very good deal; a feat equivalent for 3000 gp with additional benefits...

It would seem I'm able to cast spells with that right? I'm guessing it also counts for Divine casters for interacting with Divine Focus.

The only "issue" I see is that I'm not able to use my hand, and if I need to use a wand, scroll, potion or hold my weapon, I cannot do it.

That's why I wanted to go the Shield Brace way, which also allows me to use a Reach Weapon in 1 hand, which is my goal

If I'm a cleric, can I cast with a Weapon in my hand and a Light Shield?

I'm asking this, because it makes the difference between taking the following feats:

Go to Unhindering Shield.

Go to Shield Brace.

I know the first one allows me to keep the 1.5 STR bonus to damage, but it's something I'm not concerned with. But I know Buckler says I can use the hand to cast spells.

I'm confused about Shield Brace though, because Light Shield says my hand is free to use weapons.
I couldn't find a FAQ/Errata, only a comment from James Jacob:

Go to Comment.

And if we follow rules, there's still that FAQ from 3.5 that says, no you couldn't because reasons.

Is the hand free on my Light Shield enough to do the Somatic Components and interact with my Divine Focus?

Or should I just get

Go to Clawhand Shield.

You could go Ocean's Echo Oracle, but you lose a couple of Mysteries, so everything would come online a bit later anyway. I don't really know which is the best, but hey it's nice to have options.

Oracle gets: Swift Aid, +2 Aid, +3 at 12th. Total Aid +6 with Swift Action Aid and Standard Action Aid

1 Succor 1 - H: Combat Reflexes
1 Succor 1 - Perfect Aid (Ex): Bodyguard
1 Succor 1 - Feat: FREE
2 Succor 2 - No feats
3 Succor 3 - Feat: FREE
3 Succor 3 - Teamwork Mastery (Ex, Sp): TEAMWORK FEAT
4 Succor 4 - No feats
5 Succor 5 - Feat: FREE > Shield Focus
6 Succor 6 - No Feats
7 Constable 1 - Feat: Swift Aid - Bonus Teamwork Feat: Harrying Partners
8 Constable 2 - No Feats
9 Constable 3 - Feat: FREE > Unhindering Shield
9 Constable 3 - Squad Commander > Harrying Partners online
10 Succor 7

At level 5 Evangelist is already giving +2 to whole party, beating Oracle. At level 10 it's a move action, leaving Standard for casting. Could also be possible to push Constable at Level 8, to get Level 7 Evangelist for 4 level spells (Blessing of Fervor).
I'm aiding another for +4 AC/attack rolls. The AC buff should be up every turn with 3 AoO, and I can easily buff 1 party member attacks for +4 as well. With benevolent it will be much higher
At level 10 I'm giving +4 aid another, +2 IC, +1 Bless. With a Rod of Quicken, I can potentially do that on the first turn of combat.

1 Evangelist 1 - H: Combat Reflexes
1 Evangelist 1 - Feat: Lingering Performance
2 Evangelist 2 - No Feats
3 Evangelist 3 - Feat: Phalanx Formation
4 Evangelist 4 - No feats
5 Evangelist 5 - Feat: TeamWork Feat
6 Evangelist 6 - No Feats
7 Evangelist 7 - Feat: Bodyguard
8 Constable 1 - Bonus Teamwork Feat: Harrying Partners
9 Constable 2 - Feat: Shield Focus
10 Constable 3 - No Feats
10 Constable 3 - Squad Commander > Harrying Partners online
11 Evangelist 8 - Feat: Unhindering Shield

Overall, it would seem Evangelist is better than Oracle. Revelations aren't that good, and even getting free feats doesn't justify losing Inspire Courage bonuses.
Swift Aid albeit useful, scales at the same pace as Inspire Courage, but only for 1 party member, while IC is active for the whole party.

I'm going with Shield Focus, Unhindering Shield, to be able to cast spells with no problems, or even holding wands, don't lose the AC Bonus and get the benevolent armor enchantment.
I thought about getting Flagbearer, but the Banner item it's too expensive for what I get, I can just use a wand of Bless and get almost the same result. Since I'm no bard, I'm not getting the +4 to level.

Going bard build is out of the question because I can't cast with Heavy Armor.
Cavalier gets me Heavy Armor Prof and Martial weapons, making me a lot more tanky with 14 DEX and shields.

This is without mentioning that Oracles have a curse that might hinder gameplay or you end up selecting the one that doesn't make your character suck.

EDIT: updated Evangelist build, forgot to include Phalanx Formation to be able to make AoO with reach