A staff of Limited Wish (and nothing else) costs 117,000 if you craft it yourself. That's not a bad deal at all for flexibility and surge ability at high level.Is that a custom staff? I don't see it on the list of staves
Yes, custom staves are really the way to go. Pick which spells you want (there's not actually a theme requirement) and how many charges you want it to use to match your actual needs. You should never craft a staff from the book, you're not limited to any "similar item" costing or forbidden spells, just your chosen spell level, CL, and any expensive material components.
The logic of this is that most staves found in loot should make sense as something someone would actually want, which most of them fail.
A staff of shadow that lets you use all of the Shadow Enchantment/Conjuration/Evocation line would be pretty amazing if you don't want to spend that much on Limited Wish and still want flexibility.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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The extra nice thing about some staves is that they cast spells that would ordinarily use expensive material components, but are charged with spells that don't need expensive material components.
For example, staff of life casts raise dead without a 5000gp diamond, but is charged with heal.
Staves are also especially good for spells that are highly level-dependent and might require frequent use. Dispel magic is a good example, and one that's hard to find on a printed staff (staff of abjuration and staff of the magi, iirc). When you need a dispel, you need it right now, you want the dispel check as high as possible, and you want to be able to cast it a few times in case the dispel check fails. That's perfect for a staff.
You're kidding right? Staff of Life is 109k. I could basically cast 20 Raise Dead before breaking even.
If I need that many raise dead, there's a huge problem in the party.
It's not something you'd craft at 11th level, it's something you might consider keeping if you found it in treasure at 17th. In high level games, sometimes you lose at rocket tag. Also heal on tap is pretty handy at that level.
@Letric: I think your statement assumes that you WANT to get everywhere as fast as you possibly can. That's not always necessary, and if it's not going to make a difference, why not take some time and charge your tools, craft a few things, and generally prepare more thoroughly? Unless the plot says otherwise, there's no need to rush-rush-rush all the time. XD
Usually we play APs, so kinda hard. Anyway my DM let me use Amazing Tools to craft Wands/Staves, so I might craft some.
I'm confused though about the fact that some Staves have Arcane and Divine spells.
According to Spell trigger if you don't have the spell on your spell list you couldn't use it.
EDIT= but I do see your point. I think Crafting is a bit overpowered, but I'm not sure.
I'm confused though about the fact that some Staves have Arcane and Divine spells.
According to Spell trigger if you don't have the spell on your spell list you couldn't use it.
According to Use Magic Device you can.
Use a Wand, Staff, or Other Spell Trigger Item: Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand's spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Failing the roll does not expend a charge.
DC 20.
That fireball takes two days of giving up a 4th level spell to cast once.Another way of looking at it is that while not adventuring not casting a spell is a waste of resources. A waste I say! :) The staff lets a caster save up to cast more.
Wizard: I cast fireball.
GM: Where? You are sailing on a ship in a well policed trade route?
Wizard: Well I don't have to have a target, but I spent an hour this morning and I want see _something_ for my time....
Yes, I like the idea of "I paid you nothing for the last six days so I could have six hamburgers today. Give!"
I'm confused though about the fact that some Staves have Arcane and Divine spells.
According to Spell trigger if you don't have the spell on your spell list you couldn't use it.
As has been pointed out, Use Magic Device exists. Also not all casters are single-classed.
Repeating for emphasis. Staves (in our games, so far) are generally much higher-level than the poor Schmendrick who stumbles across them, so the power loss is considerable.
And that staff's power will grow as you do, can be recharged and allows you to have more spells available to use than you can normally memorise or have access to which is good for Sorcerers and Wizards alike.
More versatility is better. If your playing by core rules, unless your GM is handing out staves at level 3 or 4, then any staff you find will have a better caster level than any stock wand you will ever find of the same spell.
That fireball takes two days of giving up a 4th level spell to cast once.Another way of looking at it is that while not adventuring not casting a spell is a waste of resources. A waste I say! :) The staff lets a caster save up to cast more.
Wizard: I cast fireball.
GM: Where? You are sailing on a ship in a well policed trade route?
Wizard: Well I don't have to have a target, but I spent an hour this morning and I want see _something_ for my time....
Sure but I could instead be spending that spell slot to cast divinations to find out information on where ever I'm traveling too, and that's not counting the fact that most APs and campaigns I've played didn't have much downtime other than travel, oh and if we are traveling I'm probably going to want to either teleport there or cast something like phantom steed to get there faster.
Sutff
My issue is with Custom Staves. IMO printed ones suck, they give too many spells that most of the time are useless and only increase the price.
I could totally make a Staff of Communal Stoneskin and it will only cost like 16k, it's cheap and I could sorta "spam" it (five times in a row). But the recharge cost and the upfront price don't seem worth it.Communal Stoneskin is only 250GP.
I don't know, I honestly fail to see the big things about them, maybe I'm cheap and don't wanna waste money, but Staves are Consumables, and they only give you a fraction of power when needed that I'm not sure it's worth the costs
Originally, I thought staves were overpriced magical walking sticks, but after seeing some of these cool custom staves, I'm convinced that staves aren't just magical firewood.
Yes one of the fun things about item crafting is making the tools you want or need.
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Tools like the following:
Aura Strong enchantment and necromancy; CL 13th
Slot –; Price 85,540 gp; Weight 5 lb.
This gnarled black staff is 5 feet long, has a face carved into a large wooden knob at the top, and is made of magically darkened wood. The face twists and screams in agony whenever the staff is gripped tightly. The staff is strongly evil-aligned and cannot be wielded safely except by those who possess an evil alignment. Those of non-evil alignment that wield it suffer one negative level, which persists until they relinquish possession of the staff. The staff also becomes temporarily non-functional when in the hands of such a wielder (as if it had been the target of a successful dispel magic) and remains that way until relinquished. The staff allows the use of the following spells:
- empowered maximized ray of enfeeblement (1 charge)
- empowered maximized touch of idiocy (1 charge)
- waves of exhaustion (2 charges)
Requirements Craft Staff, Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, ray of enfeeblement, touch of idiocy, waves of exhaustion; Cost 61,100 gp
***
Aura Strong universal; CL 17th
Slot –; Price 176,520 gp; Weight 5 lb.
Blindingly glorious, this 6-foot long diamond splinter was harvested from the very heart of the plane of earth. The staff was created by one of the most powerful arcane bloodline sorcerers that ever lived. Via arcane apotheosis, the sorcerer was able to use the staff to manipulate the very fabric of reality on a whim. This magical staff possesses the following spells:
- limited wish (5 charges)
- wish (10 charges)
Requirements Craft Staff, limited wish, wish; Cost 163,260 gp
Repeating for emphasis. Staves (in our games, so far) are generally much higher-level than the poor Schmendrick who stumbles across them, so the power loss is considerable.Yes, they operate at the wielder's caster level rather than the item's... which is a step DOWN more often than not.
From the staves section: "the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it's higher than the caster level of the staff."
If you find that staff with CL 15 and you're CL 8, feel free to use it at CL 15.
Wait a minute, can you explain this part to me again? It seems everyone is pretty much in agreement with you, so this is not contesting, but more of an education request.
The rules state:
1) Staves use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells.
Ok, this is simple. I can use my INT, or whatever, to make the DC higher and use feats to make modify it.
2) Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.
Ok, this sentence bring caster level into it. So if I have a higher caster level than the power in the staff, I can use my caster level.
This is where I have having trouble. The staff has a general caster level set based on however they determine this. I don't think this means that all spells are set at that caster level. The staff of power does indicate that a few spells are cast at a higher caster level (heightened), which makes me think the standard rules apply that all spells are assumed to be at the lowest possible caster level.
Where does it say you can chose to cast at the caster level of the staff? Is this because if a 1st level wizard picks up a wand, he still casts a fireball at CL 5 and therefore Staves use the same rules for all spells contained within?
Sure but I could instead be spending that spell slot to cast divinations to find out information on where ever I'm traveling too, and that's not counting the fact that most APs and campaigns I've played didn't have much downtime other than travel, oh and if we are traveling I'm probably going to want to either teleport there or cast something like phantom steed to get there faster.That fireball takes two days of giving up a 4th level spell to cast once.Another way of looking at it is that while not adventuring not casting a spell is a waste of resources. A waste I say! :) The staff lets a caster save up to cast more.
Wizard: I cast fireball.
GM: Where? You are sailing on a ship in a well policed trade route?
Wizard: Well I don't have to have a target, but I spent an hour this morning and I want see _something_ for my time....
There are no toilets on the Enterprise.
If that is how your campaign works, and that's how you enjoy it that's fine. The OP asked to be sold on staves, but if you are not convinced after the comments here, you probably won't be. That's OK as long as your having fun, leave staves out of your game :)
Story telling hand-waves a lot of these details. Indiana Jones used an old map with a red line, to thin the 'traveling' detail. Campaigns do to for the same reason. If someone wants to hand wave details like eating, sleeping, travel or downtime, it is assumed they still happen. In fact a wizard can add two free spells each time he levels up, and learning a spell from scratch usually takes a week per spell level. Some checks (Craft, Profession, & Performance notably) are measured in weeks.
There are no toilets on the Enterprise.
They DID have them on the Enterprise-A. Apparently only in the holding cells with the following warning emblazoned upon them, can be seen if you look closely.
"DO NOT USE WHILE IN SPACE DOCK'.
Wait a minute, can you explain this part to me again? It seems everyone is pretty much in agreement with you, so this is not contesting, but more of an education request.The rules state:
1) Staves use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells.
Ok, this is simple. I can use my INT, or whatever, to make the DC higher and use feats to make modify it.
2) Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.
Ok, this sentence bring caster level into it. So if I have a higher caster level than the power in the staff, I can use my caster level.
This is where I have having trouble. The staff has a general caster level set based on however they determine this. I don't think this means that all spells are set at that caster level. The staff of power does indicate that a few spells are cast at a higher caster level (heightened), which makes me think the standard rules apply that all spells are assumed to be at the lowest possible caster level.
Where does it say you can chose to cast at the caster level of the staff? Is this because if a 1st level wizard picks up a wand, he still casts a fireball at CL 5 and therefore Staves use the same rules for all spells contained within?
The answers are in the question (my emphasis). Magic items default to the caster level, but staves are the exception. All other magic items that cast a spell (or an effective spell) use the crafter's level. The caster level is based (mostly) on the spells required to create the magic item. The default magic items all use the lowest caster level with the minimum ability stat modifier. A 5th level cleric could make a CLW wand that would give 1d8+5, but the default is 1d8+1 because that is the minimum.
There are no toilets on the Enterprise.
They DID have them on the Enterprise-A. Apparently only in the holding cells with the following warning emblazoned upon them, can be seen if you look closely.
"DO NOT USE WHILE IN SPACE DOCK'.
Can I use a raspberry while in space-dock?
...
This is where I have having trouble. The staff has a general caster level set based on however they determine this. I don't think this means that all spells are set at that caster level.
Actually that is exactly what it means. Every spell cast from a Staff of Power is treated as if it was cast by a 15th level caster unless the user has a caster level higher than 15.
The staff of power does indicate that a few spells are cast at a higher caster level (heightened), which makes me think the standard rules apply that all spells are assumed to be at the lowest possible caster level.
The Heighten Spell metamagic feat doesn't raise the caster level; it raises the spell level. If a 7th level Wizard uses a Staff of Power to cast a Fireball, it will have a caster level of 15: 10d6 damage, 1000 ft range, etc.
But because it is heightened it is treated as if it was a 5th level spell rather than as the 3rd level spell that it normally is. So when people attempt a saving throw against this Fireball, the DC (10 + the level of the spell + INT Mod) will be 2 higher than it would be against a 'normal' Fireball.
Where does it say you can chose to cast at the caster level of the staff? Is this because if a 1st level wizard picks up a wand, he still casts a fireball at CL 5 and therefore Staves use the same rules for all spells contained within?
You don't get to choose the caster level of the staff. The creator of the staff does that. Maybe I don't understand what you are asking here.
I think I understand now. Thanks to everyone that explained it to me.
Like I said before, this was not a rules contest, but more of an explanation for me.
I think I understand now. Thanks to everyone that explained it to me.
Like I said before, this was not a rules contest, but more of an explanation for me.
I'm glad we could help. :)
Staff of the master was an obscenely broken item. It was like, the best item in the game maybe???
It was errata'd though and I dont know the change yet. I assume we went from 1 staff worth buying to zero staves worth buying
Pretty much. You can now only apply the metamagic benefit to the spells in the staff, not towards any spell you cast.
Staves give some spell selection versatility.
For example, if Invisibility is on the staff, you probably use one per party member. This will save you a lot of spells, allowing you to use your 2nd level slots elsewhere. You don't need to have that spell all the time, since you can spam it when needed.
As mentioned, the CL and DC scale well.
For spells not on your list, you do need UMD (DC 20) to use them.
For recharge, you need to use a slot at the same level as the highest level spell in the staff. It need not be that spell, but can be any spell on the staff at that level. Great for recharging a staff of spells you don't have as long as you have a single one on the list. Also, some APs have a lot of downtime, allowing time to recharge.
The price payback for staff vs. standard casting can take a while, but if you need that spell sufficiently in the campaign, then it can be worth it. In a lethal campaign, Raise Dead at several charges can pay off in good time. Ditto Restoration.
Staffs can often be used by more than one party member, so you avoid the question of "Who raises the healer?". Heck, you can even lend it to the village 2nd level cleric, and now get your own cleric raised easily and quickly.
I think the general consensus I have heard was that they are too expensive to buy, but often kept if found as treasure.
/cevah
Is there a hard GP crafting limit for staves that prevents you from stacking too many spells with high levels or expensive components? I feel like there's a general 200,000 gp crafting cap somewhere, but I can't find it.
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Is there a hard GP crafting limit for staves that prevents you from stacking too many spells with high levels or expensive components? I feel like there's a general 200,000 gp crafting cap somewhere, but I can't find it.
In D&D 3.0/3.5, an item's magical components could not exceed 200,000 without resorting to epic rules.
There is no such cap in Pathfinder.
I think people struggle with staves because of the linear thinking of most of the best core gear. You want a +1 this, then an +2 this, etc.
Staves function as resuable, flexible and scale-able consumables. Their added diversity of function makes them very cost ineffective for low level play.
Like any consumables, they run out quickly in back to back adventures with no down time and total resource usage.
Unlike literal consumables, their real value edge comes out over months of in game time. You charge and cast the useful spells over and over.
With a magic mart, a lot of liquid cash and no downtime, you can just roll through the shop, get your ridiculously awesome scrolls and other one-shots and move on.
On the other hand, if you're wandering for a long time, that rechargeable staff gives you a lot of flexibility in what you can do.
Also, a few of the more powerful staves, like The Staff of Power, have unique abilities that are pretty intense.
Is there a hard GP crafting limit for staves that prevents you from stacking too many spells with high levels or expensive components? I feel like there's a general 200,000 gp crafting cap somewhere, but I can't find it.In D&D 3.0/3.5, an item's magical components could not exceed 200,000 without resorting to epic rules.
There is no such cap in Pathfinder.
There is definitely such a cap in arms and armor. Don't know why or if it was overlooked in the rest of magic or whether that cap was simply supposed to be implied.
I think people struggle with staves because of the linear thinking of most of the best core gear. You want a +1 this, then an +2 this, etc.
My issue is recharge time. 10 whole days when some staves have 2 charges per use is a bit too much.
Also core staves have weird prices and spells that aren't that useful. I mean, some Staves have Fireball and Burning Hands. Unless you're a blaster, burning hands is wasted and only increases its price.And during adventures you can only charge Staves when preparing spells, not at the end of the day, when you know for sure you won't need the spell slot, that's another drawback imo
You're confusing 'maximum enhancement levels' with maximum GP value.
You can keep adding +GP value additions to arms and armor after they reach +10 Enhancement. For instance, Greater Fire, Cold and Lightning Resistance to a +10 armor will get it well over the 100k price level of enhancements.
There aren't as many +GP effects for weapons, but 3.5 had a big one in the Magic Item Compendium...Prismatic Burst. 30k gp for a prismatic spray when you crit. Effectively a +11th effect in terms of 'cost', but it was straight GP instead of an enhancement equivalent.
Even the Epic rules for arms adn armor noted that epic pricing only kicked in if you got past +10 Enhancement equivs.
Here's the Epic Magic Item criteria:
=============================
Epic Magic Items
While not truly an artifact, the epic magic item is a creation of such power that it surpasses other magic items. Epic magic items are objects of great power and value. The following are typical characteristics of an epic magic item. In general, an item with even one of these characteristics is an epic magic item.
Grants a bonus on attacks or damage greater than +5.
Grants an enhancement bonus to armor higher than +5.
Has a special ability with a market price modifier greater than +5.
Grants an armor bonus of greater than +10 (not including magic armor’s enhancement bonus).
Grants a natural armor, deflection, or resistance bonus greater than +5.
Grants an enhancement bonus to an ability score greater than +6.
Grants an enhancement bonus on a skill check greater than +30.
Mimics a spell of an effective level higher than 9th.
Has a caster level above 20th.
Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component- or experience point-based costs, or additional value for intelligent items.
An epic magic item that grants a bonus beyond those allowed for normal magic items has a higher market price than indicated by the formulas for non-epic items.
Epic magic items are not artifacts. They are not unique, though they are certainly very rare, and anyone with the proper item creation feats can build them. Even an epic magic item can never grant a dodge bonus, and the maximum inherent bonus that can be applied to an ability score is +5. An epic magic item cannot be created that uses or mimics an epic spell. A major artifact might be able to mimic such a spell, however.
============================================
Strictly speaking, you wouldn't be able to craft a +10/+10 shield, or a +10/+10 double weapon because of the last rule...but general consensus is each enhancement is counted seperately towards the limit of the effect.
But, PFS does NOT use the Epic rules, and so these limitations are not in effect for a de jure status...they are present de facto, as Paizo doesn't want to exceed them for balance reasons.
And during adventures you can only charge Staves when preparing spells, not at the end of the day, when you know for sure you won't need the spell slot, that's another drawback imo
You can prepare your spells whenever you want, you know, not just at the end of the day (or even once per day).
You can leave spell slots open to be prepared later in the day as needed. This is especially common among wizard players and similar casters who wish to increase their on-call versatility.
So leave several of those slots open (I recommend one per spell level). If you encounter a unique problem that requires a certain spell, prepare it then (time permitting) and solve said problem with it. If that doesn't happen, prepare spells at the end of the day and put those slots towards the staff.
Doesn't work so well for some caster though, like clerics, who are forced to prepare their spells at a certain time of day.
And during adventures you can only charge Staves when preparing spells, not at the end of the day, when you know for sure you won't need the spell slot, that's another drawback imoYou can prepare your spells whenever you want, you know, not just at the end of the day (or even once per day).
Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells or regains spell slots, he can also imbue one staff with a portion of his power so long as one or more of the spells cast by the staff is on his spell list and he is capable of casting at least one of the spells
Depends on how strictly you read this I guess. The Each morning part specifically.
Letric,
Recharge time is rough. It's what makes it feel like a consumable and not "permanent" like Boots of Speed.
You spend it, get more spends than one ofs and then wait for it to be back.
I try to focus staff design in parties for a suite of spells that multiple members of the party can contribute to recharging, thus ensuring the cleric doesn't get spell sapped in the am.
It's not hard to create or buy a staff that several members can use, making them very versatile.
Yeah, that might be a proverbial "nail in the coffin."
That's...interesting. Two casters could contribute to recharging a staff so it could regain power faster? Interesting idea. Honestly never considered it.
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That's...interesting. Two casters could contribute to recharging a staff so it could regain power faster? Interesting idea. Honestly never considered it.
No, that is specifically called out as not possible.
Staves hold a maximum of 10 charges. Each spell cast from a staff consumes one or more charges. When a staff runs out of charges, it cannot be used until it is recharged. Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells or regains spell slots, he can also imbue one staff with a portion of his power so long as one or more of the spells cast by the staff is on his spell list and he is capable of casting at least one of the spells. Imbuing a staff with this power restores one charge to the staff, but the caster must forgo one prepared spell or spell slot of a level equal to the highest-level spell cast by the staff. For example, a 9th-level wizard with a staff of fire could imbue the staff with one charge per day by using up one of his 4th-level spells. A staff cannot gain more than one charge per day and a caster cannot imbue more than one staff per day.
I think what Gevaudan meant was that multiple party members have the possibility of recharging the staff, it doesn't have to be the same guy every day. One day it could be the cleric, the next day the party wizard does it, and so on.
Ah ha! Well, good. Thought I was being dumb or something for never thinking of that before, Jeraa.
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After reading through the rules on how staves work, the consensus was immediate: "Wow, these are completely worthless!" (language cleaned up for forum audiences)
Tell me... what are we missing?
Nothing. On paper they are neat things that let you cast at your caster level, but in reality, way too overpriced to be even remotely appealing.
I never see anyone use them. Even high level PCs would rather go for wands that these pieces of s+#$.
I'm starting to think that the basic formula for item creation / pricing for those was flawed from the get go (i.e. when 3E was made). It could be that they should have been priced like wands. Such pricing might actually make them relevant, useful and iconic again.
A staff is cheaper then a wand of equal casting level.
As noted above, the problem is that staves are being compared to wands of low level spells that nobody cares what the caster level is. (and being built with those spells, too).
If you're talking comparison to wands of spells level 4 and such, the staff is obviously a better deal.
A staff is cheaper then a wand of equal casting level.
As noted above, the problem is that staves are being compared to wands of low level spells that nobody cares what the caster level is. (and being built with those spells, too).
If you're talking comparison to wands of spells level 4 and such, the staff is obviously a better deal.
I don't mind the price, but minimum CL 8 means that you can use them for 1-4 level spells, but pricing can be odd.
Example:
Wand of Haste 750*3*5 = 11250 > 50 charges
Staff of Haste 400*3*8 = 9600 > 10 Charges
If you have a support character that always use the wand, you have 50 Charges, at CL 5 though.
Staff is nice, cheaper, higher CL, but only 10 charges, and getting back 1 charge/day sucks imo. It means that the Staff is not a permanent item you will use, but rather a boots in power if you need it, which you may not.
So you're dishing out big bucks for an eventuality, that's my main issue.
If I were able to recharge a Staff each day with my slots left, that would be awesome, but each charge used means I have to go around with 1 less slot.
Wands on the other hands, you can spam them, and don't care at all about charges.
There's also the interpretation whether you have to recharge the Staff when you prepare spells first time, or not.
True enough, but the odds you are going to use up ten charges of Haste before you can recharge the staff are pretty slim. And if it's a 2nd or 3rd most expensive spell, then it might actually have a 'net cost' of half that price, or even less.
It's all in how you look at it. It's a fine line between 'must have staff for extra spell slots' and 'too much money for what it does.' Designing that isn't easy.
I wonder if being able to sock in the charge at the end of the day, or it automatically regaining 1 charge every day, would be enough to flip views of staves?
True enough, but the odds you are going to use up ten charges of Haste before you can recharge the staff are pretty slim. And if it's a 2nd or 3rd most expensive spell, then it might actually have a 'net cost' of half that price, or even less.
It's all in how you look at it. It's a fine line between 'must have staff for extra spell slots' and 'too much money for what it does.' Designing that isn't easy.
I wonder if being able to sock in the charge at the end of the day, or it automatically regaining 1 charge every day, would be enough to flip views of staves?
That's the thing, recharging staff during adventuring = might as well prepare the spell myself.
Yes, 10 Charges seems a lot, but it's not actually that much depending on the spells you have.Some APs are really fast and don't have downtime, not 10 days at least.
If you could recharge them whenever you want, at least you're almost sure that spell slot went unused.
Recharging a staff is not so bad if one makes or obtains an arcane battery for it.
Recharging a staff is not so bad if one makes or obtains an arcane battery for it.
That's a first for me. I need a magic item to make another magic item worth!
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I'm sorry, but by the time a wizard can fling a fireball, he should be toting a staff around, for coolness factor, even if the staff can only yield 0 or 1st level spells.
The reason he can't is due to pricing, and that's kind of a bummer.
Unchained has two scaling staves, at 8K each. This might be the best workaround in the game so far, despite its limitations. We need more scaling staves...
You can carry around a staff for coolness factor, just not a staff.