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RPG Superstar 7 Season Marathon Voter, 8 Season Marathon Voter. Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber. FullStarFullStarFullStarFullStarFullStar Venture-Agent, Kentucky—Lexington 10,081 posts. 1 review. 1 list. No wishlists. 16 Organized Play characters.

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The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Great point Dracomicron! That seems to be the only thing in the game that cares about what level order you have. Maybe just a spot to note "Last two levels: " would be sufficient and update it every time you level.

Thanks to every indulging my curiosity.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

SirShua wrote:
You still need to track how many skill ranks and hp/sp each class gives you. There's 3 different tracks for them currently.

Yep

Tracking that. But it doesn’t matter how I write them down. If I’ve got 4 levels, I can write it as Envoy 2, Soldier 2 or Envoy 1, Soldier 1, Envoy 2, Soldier 2 and both are equivalent. 4 levels splits 2 and 2.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Yea, the key ability doesn't matter for the order like Micheal Smith quoted. For the feat prereq, so long as you qualify it doesn't matter that you remember the order you took the classes.

I'm thinking from a character creation / character sheet perspective. If there isn't anything that matters for order, there is no need to write down the order you took classes and I can't seem to find anything in the system that cares about the order.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

While working on another game system, it occurred to me that level by level advancement doesn’t seem to matter in Starfinder like it does in Pathfinder?

In Pathfinder, we need to track HP and favored class bonuses by level. Neither of those matter in Starfinder. Additionally we have the rebuild items to redo a character.

Can anyone think of anything that requires one to write down the order classes were taken vs just the total of each class you possess?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

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The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

I guess we truly need a FAQ on this. I’m not entirely sure why the points are getting mixed up. I’ll write up a good FAQ Monday.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Polymorph school has a rule wrote:
In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

This would block Enlarge whether or not the polymorph changed your size.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

+1 except I think it isn’t gets ignored not dispelled.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

The vestigile FAQ combined with Hands of Effort FAQ clarify a PC has one primary and one offhand plus some number of natural weapons.

You can’t depend more than one primary and one offhand in attacks with or without vestigile.

You can’t use an offhand feature like Spell Combat or TWF if you are using your offhand already.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Volkard Abendroth wrote:
The complete example by SKR is in my prior post

That is not complete. He didn’t cover a two handed weapon in his examples. He did in my linked post.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Reread that thread. It’s explicily identical to your assertion.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Graystone, sorry. I see the confusion. I said “claw” accidentally in the url link title instead of “unarmed strike”.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

PossibleCabbage wrote:
Supernatural abilities are not spells. Spell-like abilities are not spells.

Both true statements.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

He still couldn't use a claw because the limbs that have claws are occupied wielding a two-handed weapon, but that's beside the point.

The arms can't be used to do something your normal limbs can't in regards to melee combat. If I can't wield a two-handed weapon and claw normally, the discovery shouldn't let me do so.

Well that is true. But if the PC had a claw, they could do claw, spell combat (using vestigile), and one hand a sword. At least I believe that is what was ultimately clarified.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Graystone, you are one a different point.

My linked post was an interpreted by SKR as an example of making an attack with:
(Primary Hand, Offhand) for two hand sword and offhand for unarmed strike.

The reply said you can not do that.

The Volkard example is identical:
(Offhand) for Spell Combat and (Primary Hand, Offhand) for two hand sword.

So we have explicit and official denial of that via the vestigile FAQ and Hands of effort FAQ.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

The author of the FAQ with the entire design team consensus says that you can’t two hand a sword and make a claw.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Vestigile arms is written from the perspective of someone who still only have two arms (for the purpose of attacks.)

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

3 people marked this as a favorite.

The actual question they are wanting answered is:

For spell stacking rules, if a magical effect is not a spell it is exempt from stacking rules because a supernatural effect is magical but not a spell.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Perfect Tommy wrote:
TLDR: I would say that you apply the ability to speak normally *as the caster*.

So you made your familiar a ventriloquist dummy?

As for your question, no this doesn't all an animal that can only go "grr" go "my dear sir I'm happy I can speak".

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Lady-J wrote:
these are all raw, by raw a creature with a polymorph effect can benefit from a non spell size change and this is doubly true for non spell polymorph effects

If you believe this is so, you are in the vast majority. You really need to make a new thread, link all the previous threads where the discussion happened, and hope for a FAQ.

I don't expect you to be confirmed.

That isn't how the rules work, how they are described to work, how every similar issue has been demonstrated to work.

Either, you accept your view isn't going to be accepted as fact until proven with a FAQ in your favor or please stop continuing to assert your position is RAW, the one true interpretation to bind them all.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Ok, not ever level of Arcane Archer gives caster level improvements.

You'd need 5th caster level to start enhancing it as a magic weapon. You'd need CL of 3 times the bonus, so for +5 weapon that is CL 15.

You can use orange ioun stone, magical knack, and Esoteric/Eclectic Training to offset the fighter levels and the levels of Arcane Archer that don't give you CL improvements.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

toastedamphibian wrote:
Okay, no actual reason. Thanks.

In the threads, the reason was paraphrased as "we couldn't think of why your foot and your nose isn't two weapons so we are allowing".

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Where is the bonded object feat?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Merm7th wrote:
would it affect the entire dragon plus 10 feet out?

yes

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Lady-J wrote:
you are well within your rights to house rule that it doesn't work but by raw it does work.

You differ in interpretation in a way that FAQ tend to rule against.

Nothing more to be said. You see our way as a house rule in the same way we see your way a house rule.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

  • Polymorph wrote:
    You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell.

    Rules showing that polymorph rules are relevant for spells or supernatural abilities such as Wild Shape.

  • Some abilities that work as a spell tell you what their DC is, like the bard’s fascinate performance. An ability that doesn’t tell you anything about its DC has a DC of 10 + the spell level + the key spellcasting ability score of the class that granted it (or Charisma otherwise).

    Some rules on how to get spell details for thing that are not spells.

  • How does damage work if I have various effects that change my actual size.

    The rules mix spells and non-spell effects together, as they all work the same in the rules.

  • If you have two spells with effects other than bonuses.

    This FAQ originated from a thread discussing “This effect does not stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon” and some people saying “Threat range is not the same as a critical multiplier”. The FAQ makes it clear that despite critical multiplier not being a threat range modification, they effects don’t stack. This is similar in concept to the “it isn’t a spell” position in regards to combining magical effects.

  • Spells or magical effects usually work as described …

    Stacking Effects: Spells that provide …
    Same [/b]Effect[/b] More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells …
    Same Effect with Differing Results: The same spell …
    One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell …
    Multiple Mental Control Effects: Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as spells …
    Notice how “effects” and “magical effects” are used interchangeably with spells. The various rules on combining multiple spells or magical effects often use spells, but they deliberately don’t mean to restrict that to just spells.

In closing, every single time a rule is interpreted too closely by a group that interpretation has resulted in an FAQ that invalidates that interpretation. This is an example of interpreting too closely, clearly the rules don't care that Wild Shape is Supernatural and Demonic Bulk is supernatural. They won't stack with each other due to the various "spell stacking" rules.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

I seriously have no idea what your point is. I can't pin it down.

We have those stacking rules (which directly relates to Enlarge Person stacking with Wild Shape).
We have FAQ saying they don't stack.
We have overwhelming evidence all ofter this subject and every time we point out why it doesn't work as you say, it seems like you are pointing to something else.

Can you show me the rules you believe prove your side? Because I can't find them. All I can find is rules and FAQ that disprove your position.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Rage Spell wrote:
otherwise identical with a barbarian's rage
Barbarian Rage wrote:
While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.

The first lines says that the second line is in effect during the Rage spell.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Lady-J wrote:
the rules do not say and other magical effects the rules say spells, adding words to the rules is misconstruing them and making up false rules, the rules are clear as written it is only spells

There are a lot of rules. No one can know them all.

Combining Magical Effects Core p208 wrote:
Spells or magical effects usually work as described, no matter how many other spells or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient. Except in special cases, a spell does not affect the way another spell operates. Whenever a spell has a specific effect on other spells, the spell description explains that effect. Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place:

Notice how they called the section "Combining Magic Effects" and used "spells or magical effects" three times. They go on to use colon before a number of rules.

In each of those rules, they only use the word spells. The reader is to understand that they are now shorthanding spells for "spells or magical effects".

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Lady-J wrote:
the rules say spell, and spell can not interact, a supernatural ability even tho it may be emulating a spell is not a spell

Only be deliberately choosing to misread the rules.

The rules say “Spells and magical effects” then immediately shortens that to spells.

That would be abusing the need to drop “and magical effects” for word count reasons as a out to your logic. They had to shorten otherwise it would add 210 words to that section by repeating “and magical effects” 70 times.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Volkard Abendroth wrote:
You get a higher strength modifier. The number of attacks remains the same.

You get the higher strength modifier by using two hands. The use of two hands uses your primary and offhand. The vestigial hands FAQ says you can't gain more attacks than normal, but that really means "you still only have one primary and one offhand."

Therefore, no you may not 2 hand attack and 1 hand attack with a vestigial arm because that is using a primary and two offhand, which you don't have.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

wraithstrike wrote:
I don't mind the ranger having 3 offhand attacks before having two primary attacks. I wouldn't let him get 3 offhand attacks until he took all 3 feats.

+1

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

TheDisjointed wrote:

1) What is the expected power level say at Lv. 5.

2) Or does this tie into the sensibilities deal Dasrak stated.
3) Wonderous item at Lv 3 to get unlimited use activated item

1) Ask your GM.

2) Yes
3) If I'm your GM, I'd say "you funny". If you asked again, I'd say "wait you are serious?" If you say "yes", I'd say "maybe you are not right for my group".

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Chess Pwn wrote:

I wish they had just said, these arms can't be used to attack or factored into your attack but can hold items like shields or potions.

This seems to be in line with what they want from the discovery and would prevent a lot the confusion of what they can and can't do.

Yea, in the thread they said (SKR) that using the arm for things like Shield (to gain AC) wasn't intended. But since it wasn't strictly prohibited, it was legal but not intended.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Volkard Abendroth wrote:
The difference is the multiplier applied to users strength bonus.

You get the additional strength by using an offhand. Which means you are using more attacks than a normal person could use.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

It means, hyper optimizing to be significantly more powerful than is expected or designed to be by a certain level.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

My understanding also. Morphic weapons are more like “add 0 or more weapons limited by x at y levels.”

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Back pack,

Full dragonscale plate human Druid has mage armor. Mage armor doesn’t stack with full plate but is providing incorporeal help. Druid turns to medium fish, gets enlarge person. Enlarge has “no effect” but is still an active spell. The other active spell mage armor is giving 4 AC because the full plate no longer is active. Druid shapes back to human and is enlarged from active enlarge person.

That’s how I read “no effect”. Ask your GM how they read “no effect”.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Lady-J wrote:
James Risner wrote:
It doesn’t Matter whether or not it’s a spell.
but it does, as only the effects in spell form prevent things from working together

The rules disagree with you, the developers disagree with you, and I don’t understand why you keep repeating it. Can you articulate why you feel so strongly everyone else is wrong?

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

It doesn’t Matter whether or not it’s a spell.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

1 person marked this as a favorite.

A virtual thing can't be an "item".

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

But arguing that nothing can ever be "proven" when language has laws that tell you how to interpret it is absolute absurdism.

@James Any interpretation is fine to have, but that doesn't make it valid if it contradicts what is written.

No one, including me, is arguing nothing can be proven. I've seen my words extrapolated to that view by others. I've said language is fluid. Which really translates to:

  • Changes over time.
  • Words have multiple meanings, and unless a Pathfinder rule sets which one to use people will disagree.
  • Some people may read the wording differently than 90% of others.

In short, this is an example of something both sides seem to agree is not "only one side is valid." There are other threads, where only one side may be more valid, but someone refuses to accept. There may be yet other threads where neither side is valid and Paizo gives us a third version in the form of errata.

So what someone think is the only valid interpretation, may not be.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

In that case, I've decided to interpret it as I get spell perfection at level 1 as a prerequisite free bonus feat. ;)

Good thing that there's absolutely no such thing as Rules as Written or someone might be able to prove me wrong.

That isn't what we are saying. We are saying that if something said "Get spell perfection when you think it would be cool to get" then yea. You might think it's cool to get at level 1 as a bonus ignoring prereq feats. Others would disagree, but both interpretation would be fine.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Talonhawke wrote:
we could make an unenchanted version. Or does it become wooden in an AMF.

Yes

Your GM picks one:

  • You can make an unenchanted version and it works the same.
  • You can't make an unenchanted one, without magic and in AMF it works as wooden.
  • You can't make an unenchanted one, without magic and in AMF it is a heavier one with more ACP due to Mithril being more dense than wood.
  • You can't make an unenchanted one, because the author didn't realize they make an illegal item.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Derklord wrote:
just that it doesn't match what's written.[/smaller]

Depends on how you interpret it.

Interpretation 1) You get things the level that you trade away the feature, by default.

Interpretation 2) You get things at 1st unless otherwise specified.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Chess Pwn wrote:
they might have put it in there to let people know for sure that she's good to go with her large one. But blahpers is correct, weapon focus is just for the weapon and works for all sizes.

+1

I’m also of the mind it was added to the pregen sheet to cut off “that doesn’t count as they have a large one” responses.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Doomed Hero wrote:
Force Tower is an enchanted mithril tower shield, so the non-enchanted version must exist. Not sure what it's stats would be though. I guess just the usual Mithril adjustments.

It could be argued that only exists due to magic, and you can’t make a non magic one.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

We have meandered back to Saturday afternoon.

Which is to say that a medium human wild shaped into a medium Wolf (a polymorph effect) gains no benefit from Demomic Bulk as it is ignored while under the effects of a polymorph spell or magical effect.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Andy Brown wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
any archetype that trades out an ability and doesn't have the at x level text grants you the ability at level 1
Is that in the rules or FAQ somewhere?

No in general, yes on specific items like Mutation Warrior.

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