Das Bier's page

Crit activated stuff also blatantly favors crit-fishing weapons. Another ugh.

The fighter gets tons of feats. Unfortunately, unlike a caster, he Cannot Change His Feats Daily.

So, introducing more feat chains is just adding stuff he can't take, because there are hundreds of feats, and he gets 11.

If you took that feat chain down and made it ONE FEAT that scaled...then you have a feat that's the equal of a Rage Power. You know, a class feature.

The rationale of making a feat chain because fighters have feats is like making sucky spells for spellcasters because they have tons of spells. The casters aren't going to take the sucky spells, and fighters aren't going to take sucky feats that eat up their precious class features, ESPECIALLY for some niche function.

Do you allow use of Quickrunner's Shirts?

Then his options is just a feat alternate to the shirts.

Pounce is basically unlimited use, by contrast.

He's giving the fighter the martial equivalent of a monk's training, because the fighter has NO magical abilities.

I'm okay with all good saves. A completely mundane character should have an edge.

The +5 to all saves is still not as good as a barbarian, nor likely as good as a paladin. The barb can reach +13 with Human FCB, and the paladin is basically uncapped. As it is fixed at +5, and brings the fighter back to par or superior saves he had in 1e, there's nothing wrong with it.

I LIKE the idea of him being able to swap a single long term feat with no duration. he might want to make a list of feats that can advance up the schema, however. Whirlwind Attack isn't an advance like Greater Feint is, flavorwise.

Swapping short term feats is a short term buff, for all intents and purposes. A different animal.

if they were opaque you couldn't understand them. If they are clear, you can't see them, but you can understand them perfectly.

Das Bier wrote:

Okay, he runs 200' up right next to you. If you retreat so you can attack, he gets the AoO.

Because a monk can't 5ft step away and then use Dimension Door? It's not hard.

And I'm not going Schroedinger options - a higher level version of my current monk build could do all of the things I've mentioned without any prep and do them indefinitely with some booze. (Though I suppose the GM could use the optional rules for alcohol poisoning and also not rule that turning it into ki burns it off.)

And I never said that the barbarian wouldn't see the monk after he attacked and sometimes get an action after the surprise round, but the most the barb could do is attack with a bow. If he tried to close to melee, so long as there was cover between them he couldn't pounce and the monk would get away via Dimension Door with minimal damage.

A DEX monk would have higher stealth, higher perception, and far higher mobility, and those three things would allow him to consistently decide where the combats happen. (In a team combat this is an entirely different story.)

And the barb can't have a reach weapon with a spiked gauntlet? It's not hard.

And the barb can sit behind cover and ignore your rays as easily as you sit behind cover and ignore his charge. Again, it's not hard. And if the cover is 'between' them, he could JUMP OVER IT, as jumping is considered part of normal movement. Or, since cover interrupts line of sight, he could just stealth and get away. You're at range, you're not going to see him.

Or, at that level, just fly over your cover and attack you from vertical, if need be. And you couldn't get away with Dimension Door without eating at least one AoO. It also doesn't work if he uses one of his attacks to Strength Surge to trip you, or grapple/pin you.

You're throwing out 'simple tactics' to beat him, and ignoring the fact that equally simple tactics foil what you are trying to do.

And...isn't there a feat or something that lets you use booze to get rage rounds? (Not Liquid Courage)
Maybe he's got a celestial totem and Boots of the Earth instead, and while he sits behind cover he's healing 10 hp/rd or something.
Maybe he's got Energy Resistance fire and all your scorching rays avg 5 hp dmg or something, if they hit, and he just runs away from you. Or around a corner.
maybe he's got smash from the air and simply bats your scorching rays aside. Ah,best choice, here.
Maybe he activates Guarded Stance and Rolling Dodge, has +10 to touch AC, and simply avoids your Scorching Rays.

HE does have options, outside just the invulnerable rager build, and he certainly doesn't have to play dumb.

Drahliana, if you go to the previous page, you'll see the FAQ cite where casting a ranged touch attack actually provokes twice.

True on the Increased Damage Reduction. Even 3.5e had Roll With It, which increased any Damage Reduction by 2, not 1.

Just kinda strange.

I use Roles for the simple reason - Why would I want to play this class?

I want to be the best swordsman in the land! (Champion role)

I want to be the intelligent fighter who can do everything! (master role)

I want to defend the rest of my party well. (sentinel role)

I want to be able to seek out and kill my enemies. Shades of Splinter Cell! (Hunter role)

I want to be an ex-army grunt, or build an army of skilled soldiers. (Soldier role).

I want to be a martial leader of men! (Marshal/Warlord role).
================
If you're going to expand the feats the fighter can take outside combat feats, you're probably going to need to include Qualifiers.

I called them 'training feats'. Basically, any feat that boosted a skill, movement, saves or the like was a 'training feat'.
====================

Ideas on recovery options: I use an x/day mechanic.

Convert hp to subdual dmg Bravery t/day = Fighter level + Fort save. If you have toughness, increase by toughness amount.
Subdual damage heals quickly, and more quickly as my fighter levels. Also, if you are magically healed, subdual damage is healed concurrently with HP dmg, so the fighter could 'double up' on healing.
as he lvelled, the Vigor effect could dispel increasingly powerful effects, sort of like a Lay on Hands for himself only, but including getting rid of magical spell effects, breaking grapples, and the like.

If the fighter is healed magically, the effect uses his fighter level instead of the caster level, if higher.
He gains double the normal healing effect from potions. (this makes potions = wands for the fighter).
All potions he drinks use his fighter level instead of the caster level if applicable (meaning, he doesn't need to use wands much or rely on casters to get some good buffs).

I also allowed second saves to throw off long duration spells and negative effects after a minute or two, and then every day.

I had a 'mundane' option where the fighter could never gain magical abilities, but got a bunch of side benefits for it.

Oh, noes...I like what it does with fireballs and the like! It makes blaster damage actually viable if you build for it. But those still have caps.

Combining a booster effect like that with no cap on overall damage is just asking for trouble, as was posted. A spell perfection build using the 7d6 rule would be

CL 30 for an arcanist with all the CL boosters and Spell Perfect = 6 globes! 7d6 each with your Intensify spell rule.

42d6 base.
Orc blood for 42d6+42.
Intense Spells for +10, 42d6+52.
Empower for +21d6+26, avg ~100
Maximize for 304.
404 points of damage. You winz the damage contest! And it's force, so no resistances, against touch AC, and hits incorps. Except for SR, and please, you're casting at CL 30, what more could you want?

Das Bier wrote:

Yes, it does. As your CL goes up, you get more rays. It stops at 3 rays. With Intensify, it stops at 4 rays.

That has yet to be proven. CL-scaling of rays is not synonymous with CL-scaling of damage barring developer clarification. One does result in the other, but the calculation is "+CL=+ray" instead of "+CL=+damage" like Battering Blast, Ear-Piercing Scream, Fireball, etc. Until you get a FAQ to back you up, I stand by the statement 'Magic Missile and Scorching Ray are not valid for Intensify Spell'.

Yeah, I'll wait on that FAQ, too, and that's the interpretation I'll use until it comes. I don't like overpowering spells like that...BB is nice enough on its own it doesn't need that interpretation to do more.

Das Bier wrote:

Your AC can be high, but so can his, and he's a full martial, not 3/4, with more innate bonuses to hit you don't have. You're going to be popping ki to up your AC, and eventually you're going to run out. And you can't fight defensively while using a SLA, you have to attack for that to work.

Scorching Ray & Blood Crow Strike both use attack rolls.

Das Bier wrote:

He can also do the run action for 200' a round, while you are limited to a single move while casting. He WILL catch you.

If he has to run to catch the monk, that accomplishes nothing since they can't attack on the same turn that they run. If there is any sort of terrain on the battlefield it is only harder for the barbarian to catch the monk.

Das Bier wrote:

Okay, so we're talking 3 different styles of attacks, since you can't flurry a scorching ray, and you can't flurry a Pummelling Blow, and you can otherwise flurry.

Yes - the monk has options. (Though I don't know why you think that flurry & Pummeling are somehow different.)

Das Bier wrote:

you need line of sight to even hit him. All he has to do is find some cover or concealment and wait for you to approach within 100'. Unless you are in some very, very strange wide open room where you can snipe him from 800' away or something, you're going to get one or two shots and he's simply going to hunt cover. You probably even traded away deflect arrows and he can snipe back at you.

If the barbarian tries the cat & mouse game he's already lost. The monk could consistently sneak up on him, hit him with a ranged attack in the surprise round while behind cover (no charge lane) and then run away again.

Read Defensive Fighting. You have to attack with a melee weapon. It doesn't work with ranged attacks, including spells. I had one of the rules guru's get rather irked at me because I wasn't reading the paragraph.

Okay, he runs 200' up right next to you. If you retreat so you can attack, he gets the AoO. Maybe he grapples you with strength surge. Maybe he trips you with it. Maybe he just hits you. Maybe you full attack him, and he kills you on your turn. If you withdraw, you can't scorching Ray, and you'll be inside his charge range. If you run, you can't scorching ray. You can't even double move without drawing an AoO!

The monk has fewer options then he thinks he does, as most of them simply will not work.

You're going to 'the barb is stupid' again. The monk has no class bonuses to stealth. The barb can certainly take perception, and take stealth to hide as well. He can restrict sight lanes down to very short distances. You can't move, shoot a spell, and move again without taking specific feats to do so. The whole 'creep and snipe' thing, the barb can do, too...or he can simply run away while the monk is creeping around, and lose him. Concentration isn't a class effect for you, so you can't use your SLA's defensively, so you can't cast in combat, either.

I know you're trying to schroedinger options in, man, but I just don't think things are going to fall out like you want them to.

Yes, it does. As your CL goes up, you get more rays. It stops at 3 rays. With Intensify, it stops at 4 rays.

BB, your CL determines how many globes you get...it just doesn't have a CAP on the globes, so Intensify would be useless for this spell.

All in your interpretation, I guess.

We will have to disagree, then.

Rangers are considered the most balanced of the martial classes..not overpowered, versatile, able to nova a bit, tailor daily a bit, grab a pet, fight well, but not win the DPR race.

Barbs are less versatile, but tend to make better tankers and damage soakers.

Paladins can also tank, and heal themselves and others much better.

None of these classes is overpowered.

The fighter should be raised up to the power of these classes. Those classes have to compete with spellcasters...they are NOT overpowered.

The idea that a ranger should be nerfed...is quite foreign to me. The fighter should be raised up to where the ranger is now. And your build just isn't doing that for me.

I comment on a lot of fighter threads, and I'm just not seeing a holistic view of the fighter here.

Seriously, you're adding FEAT CHAINS. Ugh. Feats are already underpowered, and you're adding niche chains, instead of working on the base class itself. Feats need to be consolidated and scale well for the fighter, not made more numerous via more chains and feats.

So, no, I don't agree on the direction you are heading.

It's an x/day Pounce skill.

I'm not saying it's imbalanced, but basically, that's what you have here. A little less movement range then Pounce, but it doesn't have to be straight line, either. You're basically getting a full attack + move action...free quickrunner's shirts, as it were.

Also, Abundant Tactics would basically double uses/day, just so you know.

I think this would vie with Warrior Spirit as one of the best AWT options to take, hands down. It won't be useful until level 6 or Haste comes online, but still, very strong.

Das Bier wrote:

You're ignoring the fact that the barb is doing far more dmg per attack then the monk, AND he has damage reduction going, because he's 2h'ing.

In other words, you're throwing a UA attack, and he's throwing a 2h greatsword attack back at you.

If you flurry him, you're DEAD before you finish your flurry.

As for skirmishing...all he has to do is Come and Get Me and a Ready action. Possibly with Vital Strike. He gets a 2h attack, and another 2h AoO on you. He's not going to be behind you in damage, and still has DR.

Plus, Beast Totem nat armor means he's not lagging you in AC.

Also you can't skirmish someone who can move that fast. With boots, he has a 100' charge.

and seriously, if you can use Pummeling style...why can't the barb?

I REALLY don't see this ending well for a monk.

No. I'm not.

The DR means almost nothing against Pummeling Style.

You're ignoring the monk's AC in the 40's which will make the barbarian miss more often than not. How in the world does Come and Get Me and Readying an action do anything against Scorching Ray but increase the damage?

How does Pummeling do anything for the barbarian besides lower damage? He already has Pounce and the monk doesn't have significant DR.

As to AC - I specifically mentioned above that this is in the case of an Unbreakable Barbarian with a crappy AC. That was my entire point of bringing up monks and Pummeling Style. (Though no - he can't match the monk's AC - no one can.)

For skirmishing - there is no way for the barbarian to catch the monk 1v1 once they hit 12. The monk can just use Dimension Door to get away and use long range powers over & over. (assuming Drunken Master infinite ki)

I am NOT saying that a monk is overall better. Please actually read what I wrote before attacking it.

Okay, so we're talking 3 different styles of attacks, since you can't flurry a scorching ray, and you can't flurry a Pummelling Blow, and you can otherwise flurry.

If you flurry with a CAGM barbarian, he's going to kill you.
If you use Pumelling blow, you're exchanging a lesser attack multiplied by 2-3x against a greater attack at maximum BAB x 2. And then on his turn he hits you with a full attack as follow up. I respectfully posit that you are dead.

If you snipe scorching rays, let's just say he doesn't have fire resistance, 15 pts of which would totally shut down that technique, since damage from the rays hits resistance independently. He pops a potion and you're doing 5 pts a ray on average. If he knows you're his opponent...a potion basically takes care of you.
He can also do the run action for 200' a round, while you are limited to a single move while casting. He WILL catch you. You can't Dimension Door on his turn, so if he reaches you, you're still going to eat attacks and a LOT of damage. I think you qualify for Witch Hunter damage extras, now?

you need line of sight to even hit him. All he has to do is find some cover or concealment and wait for you to approach within 100'. Unless you are in some very, very strange wide open room where you can snipe him from 800' away or something, you're going to get one or two shots and he's simply going to hunt cover. You probably even traded away deflect arrows and he can snipe back at you.

Maybe he even drinks a potion of invisibility just to annoy you.

Your AC can be high, but so can his, and he's a full martial, not 3/4, with more innate bonuses to hit you don't have. You're going to be popping ki to up your AC, and eventually you're going to run out. And you can't fight defensively while using a SLA, you have to attack for that to work.

Like I said, I don't see this ending well for the monk, unless you refuse to allow the barbarian to play smart, instead of just sitting there and soaking attacks like a doofus while the monk plays smart.

Being able to generate AoO's has always been a problem.

That's why Come and Get Me, and Robilar's stance, it's 3.5 Progenitor, were so popular. Also why Thicket of Blades and feats that worked off it were so nice for Stand Still builds in 3.5.

Come and Get Me barb builds.

There's nothing like killing six minions that attack you on their turn.

Firewarrior44 wrote:

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Lab_Rat wrote:

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

MageHunter wrote:

This has intrigued me. What do DR builds do when they run into a blaster of sorts, as magic automatically bypasses DR?

They actually have more trouble against Clustered Shot or Pummeling Style as while they have good HP, they tend to dump AC, and that makes a monk's Flurry of Misses become a Flurry of Crazy Damage.

Until you find that for every attack the monk takes the barbarian gives you one in turn only way harder and all of them at full BAB. You will find your monk to be dead before they finish that flurry.

What are you talking about? If they have Pummeling Style, by level 8-9 they'll have Pounce. And monks have far more attacks than any barbarian build I've seen.

Besides, a decent monk should have a high enough AC that the barbarian misses more often as not. The monk's main weakness is accuracy, which a low AC target fixes for them.

I believe the assumption was that Come and Get me was up and running meaning the Barbarian get's an attack of opportunity on the monk every time the monk attacks him. Because Aoo's resolve at full BAB it is unlikely that the monk can survive a Barbarians full attack + 4+ Attacks at full bab

Oh that. If we're talking weird class abilities - if the monk is dumb enough to stay in melee they might have issues (though the monk has 5-6 swings per round by then, so the Barb would be eating 24 more damage & probably not have enough DEX to AOO against all of them) but if we're talking class abilities then they can just go and Scorching Ray and use their speed to kite them. (I like Drunken Master infinite ki myself.) Or use Blood Crow Strike. Or use...

If they do stay in melee and fight defensively (no reason not to in this case), by 12 (when Come and Get Me can be taken) they'd have an AC somewhere in the 40's without breaking a sweat. I'd still probably give the edge to the monk, but...

You're ignoring the fact that the barb is doing far more dmg per attack then the monk, AND he has damage reduction going, because he's 2h'ing.

In other words, you're throwing a UA attack, and he's throwing a 2h greatsword attack back at you.

If you flurry him, you're DEAD before you finish your flurry.

As for skirmishing...all he has to do is Come and Get Me and a Ready action. Possibly with Vital Strike. He gets a 2h attack, and another 2h AoO on you. He's not going to be behind you in damage, and still has DR.

Plus, Beast Totem nat armor means he's not lagging you in AC.

Also you can't skirmish someone who can move that fast. With boots, he has a 100' charge.

and seriously, if you can use Pummeling style...why can't the barb?

I REALLY don't see this ending well for a monk.

Uh, no. Intensify doesn't raise the cap per ball. It raises the cap per spell. You're reading the feat wrong again. Since BB doesn't have a declared max # of balls or CL, it's useless here.

And it raises the cap by LEVELS, not by dice. Even if we were to use your interpretation, it would raise the limit to 15th level, which would be 7d6 per ball (15/2, rounding down).

Works the same for magic missile. Intensify raises MM to a 14th level cap instead of 9th, so 7 magic missiles.

You're actually thinking a +1 MM feat is more powerful then Maximize? You basically made it the equal of 3e's Twin Spell. That's not what is going on here. Even in my restricted loophole version, it'd be as Strong as Empower, which is +2 levels.

They actually rewrote Xanesha from sorc to cleric so she couldn't cast mage armor and shield. Those two spells, lifting her AC into the high 30's, were the cause of most TPK's.

and I just shook my head at Wrath of the Righteous. Marilith Warlord of the entire Abyssal armies. F/7. EWP in 6 weapons and weapon spec in them.

Like, a total and complete waste of feats. It was like wha?

Das Bier wrote:

Chess Pwn wrote:

For every 5 caster levels you possess beyond 5th, you gain a second ball of force.

so at lv10 that is shooting 2 of these blasts. at lv15 it's three 5d6 blasts. at 20 with intensified it's 4 10d6 blasts, or 40d6 blast, that empowers to 60d6 that is 7*30 = 210, quickened is 420 and that's not counting the extra damage per dice or maximized.

Um, intensified raises the damage cap.

The spell has NO damage cap. If you can reach caster level 40, you get 8 balls of force. Like, wow.

As I said, magic missile on Roids. At low level it SUCKS (does the same damage as magic missile until level 10), but at 10th damage outright doubles to equal a fireball, and then it just keeps scaling.

The spell has a damage cap.

Quote:

1d6 points of force damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d6)

That you get more balls of force doesn't change that.

You're reading it wrong. The damage is per ball of force, not per spell.

If you want to use logic...you're basically saying a level 3 individual target spell does equal damage to magic missile, a level 1 spell, and less then scorching Ray, a level 2 spell.

So...nope. You get one ball of force doing level/2 in d6 of damage, maximum of 5d6. At 10th, you get ANOTHER ball of force, doing the same damage, and repeats every 5 levels.

No idea how you got the idea that 5d6 was the max for the spell.

Ranishe wrote:

Das Bier wrote:

The reality of this situation is why Summoning was so hard in 1e.

In 1e, summons were always treated as hostile. You had to spend your entire action maintaining control of your summons, if you didn't, they turned on you! None of this summon-tell them to kill the enemy-keep casting. uh-uh. You summoned, and then you were stuck. If you got hit, you lost control of your summons that round, and that could be BAD. Summoners memorized Protection from Evil not to protect themselves from enemies, but to protect themselves from THEIR OWN SUMMONS.

A successful Dispel Magic could GRAB CONTROL of your summons and TURN THEM BACK ON YOU.

Now? Feh, summon up an army, no risk, all return.

This actually sounds like an interesting way to handle it, especially if you're allowed to summon things that would otherwise be above your power. Risk / reward and all that. Perhaps more complex in mechanics than players may want to deal with though, but I suppose current case is "I hope you know all the rules to everything you summon ever, in addition to your own rules, and can apply them all correctly"

A tool that can be used against you, it's useless, pretty much like the Fighter, or any martial with low WILL saves.

If you cannot guarantee control of your summons, there's no point in summoning them, unless it's a "summon and run away" scenario.

And thus, you didn't see use of Summons in big fights. Unless the enemy was all martials, no casters.

And you couldn't summon and run away. Your own summons would chase you down and kill you. Cause if you died, they got sent back home, and wouldn't have to die for you.

Conjurors were useful OUT of combat, since they could summon up servants to do things, or for information, or to cast SLA's in controlled conditions, or for mounts, or whatever.
But no, you didn't see them in combat much. The benefits of having a proxy take your damage and do your killing for you while you remain absolutely safe are VERY obvious. It just wasn't that easy in 1e.

You can still see a legacy of this in the ability of golems to break lose of control and go into a frenzy. Same thing...absolutely obedient and powerful cannon fodder controlled by a mage. Powerful, and 'expensive', yet with drawbacks regardless.

proxies and powerful minions are Extremely Valuable. And totally undersold in 3e and its descendants.

For every 5 caster levels you possess beyond 5th, you gain a second ball of force.

so at lv10 that is shooting 2 of these blasts. at lv15 it's three 5d6 blasts. at 20 with intensified it's 4 10d6 blasts, or 40d6 blast, that empowers to 60d6 that is 7*30 = 210, quickened is 420 and that's not counting the extra damage per dice or maximized.

Um, intensified raises the damage cap.

The spell has NO damage cap. If you can reach caster level 40, you get 8 balls of force. Like, wow.

As I said, magic missile on Roids. At low level it SUCKS (does the same damage as magic missile until level 10), but at 10th damage outright doubles to equal a fireball, and then it just keeps scaling.

IT's a very, very niche protective item. A martial might go an entire campaign without being the target of a force spell. Likewise, the enemies who will have one to defend against YOUR caster will basically be zero.

I'm not saying it's not effective...it's very good in it's niche. But, jeez, something you might use once or twice a campaign? You can't even really 'charge it up', since a magic missile spell gives it a whopping ONE CHARGE. Ugh.

Well, the base job of a martial has to be the following:

1) Good at grapple range. (Good meaning can do excellent physical damage and hit reliably).
2) Good at melee/weaponless range
3) Good at reach.
4) Good at thrown weapon range.
5) Good at bow/missile weapon range.
6) Good at long range. (Siege weapons!)
7) Can overcome material DR
8) Can overcome damage type DR.
9) IS hard to kill with physical damage.
10) Can withstand magical assaults.
11) Can aid less combat adept companions.
12) Can recover from magical attacks.
13) Can move quickly to wherever needed in any environment.

The class features of Fighters make it very hard to do this. at 1-6, a fighter is good if it can do 2 of the combat ranges, 3 is exceptional.

The average fighter never gets DR to withstand damage, he just gets an ac boost he may or may not be able to make use of if his Dex isn't high enough.

He can't withstand magical assaults very well at all, nor does he have recovery options, or movement options.

In other words, he has to spend gold, and a LOT of it, to get these options.
The fighter is a tool user, and his tools are VERY expensive.

Casters have tools, too, but their tools are MUCH more flexible, and don't cost a thing.

Buuut, we're talking a barbarian. Who isn't going to pull out a Ring of Spell Turning or Rod of Absorption out of his ass on demand, like a caster can a Globe of Inv...and that globe would have to be up AHEAD of time. It's a little late after you get hit for 200 force damage with no save. And the fight isn't going to stop so you can run down to the market for an incredibly niche Ring of Forcefangs, then run back with it equipped to laugh at the mage using this spell.

It's not even elemental damage, so no Resistances or Prots.

It's a good use of a 3rd level slot for a high level caster. It saves you the intensify, it's cheap enough to empower and maximize fairly easily without spending spell specializations on it, all you need is higher caster level to make it effective. As an incorporeal killer, it's definitely a top notch spell. I can really see you speccing it for something like Carrion Crown. Who needs a Rod of Ectoplasmic spell? BOOM!

Granted, higher caster levels is NOT easy for non specialized spells, but, jeez, that is just a nice n0-damage cap and force damage works against, like, everything.

1e summoning was indeed dangerous, and you didn't see it happen much for fighting. Too, you summoned explicitly REAL CREATURES. It was basically slavery. If they died, you couldn't summon creatures like them again until the next level. OF COURSE they turned on you. You were plucking them out of their lives and throwing them into deadly situations where they had to battle at your whim and die for your pleasure.

Summoners were NOT good people.

The idea of summoning an Efreet to get wishes? That was just asking for disaster to happen.

So, yeah, summoning was NOT the power it currently is.

The reality of this situation is why Summoning was so hard in 1e.

In 1e, summons were always treated as hostile. You had to spend your entire action maintaining control of your summons, if you didn't, they turned on you! None of this summon-tell them to kill the enemy-keep casting. uh-uh. You summoned, and then you were stuck. If you got hit, you lost control of your summons that round, and that could be BAD. Summoners memorized Protection from Evil not to protect themselves from enemies, but to protect themselves from THEIR OWN SUMMONS.

A successful Dispel Magic could GRAB CONTROL of your summons and TURN THEM BACK ON YOU.

Now? Feh, summon up an army, no risk, all return.

Martials are superb tool users. But Tools cost a LOT of money, and the good ones even MORE money.

Casters are average tool users. But their tools are awesome and basically free, they are called spells.

Money, the root of all disparity.

anyone who can bring in an effective summon 1/combat is going to be a dominating character, period.

Summons are just that strong.

FOr bonus feats: Change the language: As long as the fighter meets any other non-feat prerequisites, any bonus feats automatically upgrade to their Improved or Greater versions, if applicable.

Being able to change only their LAST TAKEN feat is...very strange. I would simply make it a floating extra feat and take it outside the loop of permanent feats.
Essentially, it's a Muscle Memory with no time limit.

Muscle Memory is a decent variation of martial versatility, no issues.

POSSIBLY...you may want to, instead of all good saves at level 1 and encouraging a 1 level dip, keep the original good saves and make Bravery +1 to all saves, thereby increasing the cost of a dip while basically giving the exact same benefit.
Since you are already giving +1 to all saves/4 levels through the other trainings, this would simplify matters greatly.

Armor Training: Make the increase to dex a dodge bonus. There's no other class that requires a high ability score to actually make use of class features like the fighter. THe closest example is a monk, and they just GET their class bonus, they don't need a 22 Dex to make use of it. IN essence, the less armor the fighter has, the more useless this bonus is.
You could also simply make it Armor Specialist for all armors instead, and be done with it. This would make it very similar to the Rage Power that grants Nat AC.

at level 6, introduce the reroll mechanic, and apply it to all saves. You don't need Thews of Steel.

Advanced Armor Training: Remember, the scaling of the Armor Training is a level 3 effect. The fighter shouldn't have to give up an advance on it anymore then a barb gives up advancing his other rage powers to take a new one.
Simply give them another AAT feat at the appropriate levels.

YOu keep Weapon Training at level 5, meaning the fighter still has no damage bonus at level 1, unlike all other martial classes.
I advise absolutely ignoring the 'lesser progression' of Weapon Training. Simply have the fighter gain +1/4 levels, and add another weapon group every 4 levels, same bonus. It won't imbalance anything. At levels 9, 13, and 17, give an AWT bonus feat.

Level 19 capstone - Make sure it stacks with Stalwart and Armor DR Training. Gaining DR 5/- at level 19 is dumb. It's the Armor Training Capstone, obviously, and he should actually be getting DR 1/- per point of armor training level.
Seriously. WHY is he suddenly gain 5 pts of dr at the same time his AT bonus also hits +5?

Level 20 capstone - The capstone BLATANTLY favors weapons with a high threat range. Gaining 1 multiplier is huge for an 18-20 threat weapon.
I would have all weapons become either 19-20 x3 weapons (equal to a falcata) or 18-20 x2 weapons at level 17. Thus, all weapons become equal. THEN at 20 you can increase the multiplier by +1 and treat all weapons absolutely equally. If they are using a falcata already, just refund the feat to them.
========================
Where are your movement options?
Skill points? (Done. No problems with 6) Skill bonuses? (Didn't see any bonuses to skills.)
Out of combat options?
Recovery/healing options?
Any warlord/marshal options?
Leadership options?
Are your capstones equivalent to 9th level spells? ---No.
Defenses and immunities? - All good saves, +5. mmm.
Do you have a feats update or rewrite? -Not really, save that one Bonus Feat.

================
You have tons of empty levels. No, really.

1) Stop treating bonus feats as a class feature. Treat them like spells, a 'seperate thing'. Casters are deprived if they only get spells for a level. Well, martials are deprived if they only get a bonus feat for a level.

2) Stop treating an advance of a class feature as a class feature. Do Paladins treat Charisma raises at later levels as +1 Saves? no. Do Barbs treat +1 Superstition raises as class features? No. Do casters treat +1 caster level as class features? no.

3) Your formatting is good, but misaimed because you're treating advances of low level class features as higher level class features.

It should be more like this:

1) Bonus Versatile Feat (unlimited duration swap), Muscle Memory, Bonus feats (1, +1/even level)
2) Bravery (+1, +1/4 levels)
3) Armor Training (+1, +1/4 levels, + MOvement)
4) Thews of Steel
5) Weapon Training (+1, +1/4 levels)
6) ????
7) Advanced Armor Training bonus feat
8) ????
9) Advanced Weapon Training Bonus feat
10) ????
11) AAT Bonus feat
12) ???
13) AWT bonus feat
14) ???
15) AAT bonus feat
16) ???
17) Mastery of Weapons (19-20 x3), AWT Bonus feat
18) ????
19) Armor Training Capstone, AAT Bonus feat
20) Weapon Training Capstone (Confirm all crits) + ???

In short, you've got 7 completely dead levels.
Really, the Advanced Training feats shouldn't be on there any more then A wizard specialist's school bonus spells are on there...which would mean you actually have 10 DEAD LEVELS.

Yeah.

I'd expand your Bravery to all saves, and go back to 1 or 2 Good saves as base. Fort and Reflex are the most logical.
Change Thews of Steel to be something that deals with BONUSES to skills, or some form of recovery option.

Make sure he only ignores pre-reqs for combat feats.

You're going to need a feat re-write. Especially for any feats affected by the Versatile feat with the auto upgrade.

---------------
How well does your Fighter do the martial roles?

The Roles are designed thusly:

Champion: You are picked to take down the big boss X. How good are you at doing it?
This role caters to Nova tactics, offensive power, and good defenses to defy a powerful enemy. It maps to Str.
The key feat here would be Power Attack.

Master: Can you do something? How good are you at doing it? Can you train others or improve yourself somehow? Are you rewarded for being intelligent? Can you measure a foe and overcome him?
This role caters to teachers, jacks of all trades, skill focused builds, and classes that reward high int skills, skill at arms instead of stats-at-arms, and can do things in game to improve the character beyond class features. You should be able to do all sorts of combat maneuvers beyond just attacking, and do them well.
It maps to Int.
The key feat here would be Expertise, ideally.

Bodyguard/Sentinel: The enemy is coming, and you have to guard against him. How good are you at it?
This role caters to high skill mods in Perception, durability, high and alternate senses, alertness, and helping others.
It maps to WIs.
The Key feat here would be alternate senses of some kind, like BLind Fighting.

Hunter: You need to find an enemy/monster and take him down.
This role focuses on Stealth, tracking, endurance, rapid movement, survival, ranged attacks/sniping, sneak attacks, infiltration /bypassing defenses, and the ability to kill quickly. Think a spec ops warrior, no spells.
It maps to Dex.
The key feat here would be TWF, Deadly Aim, or COmbat Reflexes.

Soldier: You and 1000 of your closest friends and neighbors have to kill something.
This role focuses on teamwork with allies, mass combat efficiency, defenses and durability, endurance, training/retraining, constant and reliable DPR, and tactics.
It maps to Con, and is the least stat dependent role.
The key feats here would be Teamwork feats, Die Hard, or Endurance.

Warlord/Marshal: You have to lead that army of 1000 soldiers to kill something, as the first step on your road to Empire.
This role is about buffing allies, willpower, executing strategic and tactical maneuvers, providing morale, rallying/gathering troops in the first place, training large numbers of people, and having the social skills to mix with other leaders of men and hold their own and more.
It maps to Charisma.
The key feat here would be Leadership.

=============== Your fighter does better on Champion role because of much better saves, and has Versatility on feats for some customization against a foe.

If you make the changes with Advanced Feats above, he's better on the Master role, because he can change his long duration feat layouts. However, he has no skill bonuses.
Also has no edge in training for long term improvements.

No specific Sentinel features except class skill Percept. Certainly no skill bonuses.

Stealth as class skill means marginally better at Hunter role.

Given that he can change one long duration feat to a Teamwork feat, that means he can pick up the key feat of any large unit the same day. Also, better saves means better defenses. Does Soldier REALLY well.

Nothing for the Commander side of things at all.

Ventnor wrote:

Paradozen wrote:

mbauers wrote:

Paradozen wrote:

Inquisitor martials are great. Skills, spells, and full attacks all rolled into one package. Add in a bunch of features that let me fine tune how much power I need, great RP options and a couple of unique abilities and it never gets old.

Oracle Martials are also fun. Combat buffs and social skills, the ability to help the whole party, and a wealth of unique class features combine into a very engaging combats.

Brawler always interests me, with the ability to master combat maneuvers in moments, debuff as I pump out damage, and serve as party scout out of fights.

Skald is cool, I can buff the party (with metal), then move into flank, cast a few buffs/debuffs, and smash away.

As long as my viable list of options are wider than "use a magic item" "move and attack" and "full attack" it stays interesting. Its why I shy away from fighters for full characters.

I agree that Inquisitors, Oracles, and Skalds are good, but they're casters, not martials.

Must one exclude the other?

Considering that in these kinds of threads Martial is defined as "cannot cast spells," yes.

Hear that, Commoners, Rogues, Monks, and Experts! You're Martials!

You forgot nobles. ANd monks are actually a corner-case, similar to Barbs, since they have magical abilities, and can outright gain magical powers for basically no cost with an archetype.

Magus doesn't have access to the full Wizard spell list. The sorcerer WOULD have that access.

That will give them an edge right there, as the character with the most powerful spell list in the game. Only if you are of the blood can you use ALL MAGIC...

I would simply cook the Human Extra Spells Known option right into the class, making it the best/most knowledgeable of all the spontaneous casters.

I'd also move bloodline spells down TWO levels...put in a +0 Spells Known/1 spell slot castable BEFORE their normal spell known, which they can increase with metamagic spells or use to cast their bloodline spell at the same level a prepared caster gets it. They can get bonus slots via Cha if they like.

Ergo, they'd get bloodline spells at 1, 3. 6. 9. 12 and 15...every 3 levels. For at least one level, it would be their only high level spell...which makes more sense then learning it AFTER they learn other high level spells.

Broad spell access and spell list, bloodline powers, and bloodline spells early should make for a versatile and strong sorcerer.

As a bonus, consider giving them a 'spell pool' they can cast from if they get higher then a 22 charisma for bonus spell slots. So, a 24 Charisma would get them a 7 spell point pool, and another 1st level slot, 26 would be +8 pool points and another 2nd level slot, etc.

If you REALLY want them unique, consider giving them access to both wizard and Witch lists. That way, sorcs are the true masters of magic in the game.

Just give them a feat every level, or 2 feats every level. 2 feats every other level is a head scratcher.

Your armor training is paper intensive. Just have the bonus grant DR and you're done.
armor training is a ONE LEVEL ability. Levels 7, 11, and 15 have NOTHING. The insanity of a +1 scaling of a low level ability counting as a class feature doesn't apply to spellcasters or even barbs, why is it applying to fighters?
Furthermore, change the +dex limit to a simple dodge bonus, so it always applies. Monks don't need a high dex to qualify for their class AC bonus, why do fighters?

Insert automatic AAT options there.

Your WT starts at 5. The fighter once again is the only melee class without a damage bonus at level 1.

Parry, as armor, paper intensive. Drop it. just give +1 Weapon groups and +1 to WT as a scaling bonus, and find something else to put in there at 9, 13, and 17. Find another way of soaking damage then having the fighter bleed gold for fixing his gear.

-------------------------------------------
Where are your movement options?
Skill points? Skill bonuses?
Out of combat options?
Recovery/healing options?
Any warlord/marshal options?
Leadership options?
Are your capstones equivalent to 9th level spells?
Defenses and immunities?
Do you have a feats update or rewrite?

These are the main fighter problems.

Cyrad wrote:

And like I said, there's already constructs in the game for screwing over spellcasters. If this isn't about screwing over spellcasters, then all of your arguments would also apply to any combatant, not just spellcasters. We're talking about a game where lost hit points have no effect over your combat performance. You're suggesting houserules to change that. It doesn't make sense for it to affect spellcasting but not other activities that require more precision and physical strain.

But my point is that a martial who has dedicated his life to hacking (and getting hacked) would be entirely more accustomed to physical pain, hardship and recovery. Losing bodily fluids is really nothing unusual for a fighter!

A caster (especially a full caster) not only will be far less trained and inclined to all of the above but also in order to cast spells has to go through the full verbal and somatic process that casting entails. This requires full concentration. Losing a large % of your HP in a matter of seconds absolutely should have a negative impact on this.

Ergo... we have the fighter (aka expert at fighting) who has the option to specialise in delivering damage in a way that hinders casting.

What I'm suggesting is hardly revolutionary... in fact I would say its entirely logical and based on reality.

Bookish, academic types, generally dont spend ages in the gym or engaging in martial arts and hence REALLY arent that good at either fighting or getting punched in the face!

My suggestions are first and foremost geared towards introducing some real life relevance to the fighter... the fact that they also act as a caster-martial balancer are entirely coincedental side effects and secondary.

My casters get their HP by magical reinforcement of the flesh and fields of energy that soak up the punishment around them, substituting raw magic and willpower for physical grit. It's not quite as efficient as the melee way of doing things, but they do get a bit anxious when their magic starts falling down. But in the meantime, they coast along feeling no pain because, well, they've got magic to take care of minor things.

Bleeding all over is for mundanes. ANd hey, I've got this class skill called Concentration, which means I specifically work on keeping my mental focus when exposed to great harm. Fighters don't even have that skill...how come they aren't penalized when they take a huge hit?!?

Fighters spend all their time TRAINING. Skills are an aspect of training. Ask any soldier.

If it's all about fighting, then explain to me why:
Rangers get 6 skill points.
Rangers have to train a pet.
Rangers can wear any armor and use all the weapons a fighter can, with full BAB.
Rangers get a fighting style and get to entirely skip actually learning some fighting skills as they do!
They research a ton of enemies to learn how they fight and think, and gain massive skill bonuses on terrains they like.
AND They learn how to cast spells so, like, they don't need to have skills as high.

And then justify to me why a fighter, who:
Does not have a pet.
Does not have to learn spellcasting, and can't use spells, so NEEDS skills more...
Focuses on mundane use of TOOLS (arms and armor are tools, remember) and use of his own hands
and doesn't get to ignore feat pre-reqs

has the lowest amount of skills in the game.
It makes NO logical sense whatsoever.

You can't even justify why they have less then a barbarian. A barb just needs some survival skills...they don't train, they RAGE.

Fighters train. They have masters, they go to fighter schools. They TRAIN.

Rangers only have 6 skill points because people whined that they couldn't do all the things a ranger needed to do, so it go increased from 4 to 6 in 3.5 from 3e. Obviously, every Ranger needs Hide in Shadows, Move Silently, Survival, Knowledge (Nature), Handle Animal, Spot and Listen, or they just aren't a ranger! And you can't do that with just 4 skill points, and you're MAKING them bump Int!

Unfair!
A skill tax!

And then Paizo consolidates Spot and Listen to Perception, consolidates HS and MS to Stealth, gives them Concentration for free, and they still have 6 skill points per level.

Unreal.

wow, a magic missile, uncapped, on roids. only drawback is short range and ranged touch, which ain't much of a drawback at all. Definitely a single target killer if you'd prefer to go that route. And you don't even need to intensify it since it hasn't got a cap. Just shoot your CL to the moon and you just do more and more dmg.

I can see this being a VERY useful spell at 15+.

Not really. Most casters can get past SR without too much trouble, especially if they aren't spontaneous casters. The wizard creates a pit and walks away laughing.

That said, this idea: "Things aren't fun for martials because they have nothing to do? Let's make it so casters have no fun and have nothing to do! This is how we Fix The Game!"

That idea there. It's the equivalent of "What? Women think it's unfair that they can't vote? Well, let's just make it so nobody can vote! There! Fair! What? The Boston Red Sox think it's unfair that they have to play baseball with cinderblocks tied to their ankles? Well, let's just tie cinderblocks to the Yankees' ankles, too! There! All better!"

It needs to die.

Ruining the game for everyone does not make the game work. It makes the problem worse. Instead of creating scenes that shut casters down to balance out the scenes that shut martials down, how about we just stop making encounters that completely shut PCs down?

Meaning a total revision of the spellcasting system. mmm. Which would neuter spellcasters, and you're back to square 1.

Human Barb Superstition bonus:
1 +2
3 +3
4 +4
6 +5
8 +6
9 +7
12 +9
15 +10
16 +11
18 +12
20 +13

Reflex save is +6 at 20, so +19 Reflex save.
Let's say a 20 dex. +24 Reflex save
+5 CLoak of Prot. +29 Reflex save.

And what was that D B Fireball? 28? Ah. Fails on a 1.
At 15th, lets say a 16 Dex and +5 Cloak, +5 from levels. +23. Makes it on a 5, or less if the mage doesn't have 30 Int.

Das Bier wrote:

666bender wrote:

Das Bier wrote:

A battle cleric can replace a fighter in doing the fighter's job if they desire to. And then do other jobs if those are required.

Whereas the fighter can only do his own job, and doesn't have near the defenses a cleric does. Also, the fighter can't do near the damage a cleric can using his own class features. He MUST spend money, esp on consumables, to do so.

The cleric just casts them ahead of time.

Just, ugh.

The Dragon come near, roaring and charging the party.... Then.. A scream is shouted,!

STOP Mr dragon, said the cleric. " give me 15 casting rounds and than let's see who is the man ....."
The cleric return the fight, to see 3 dead party member and a dead Dragon next to the almost dead barbarian.
" well... " said the rightous giant cleric, " good thing I learned raise dead...

What you mean is:

The Dragon come near, roaring and charging the party.... Then.. A scream is shouted,!

"Buff up! We'll cover for you!" cries the party fighter nobly.

"No need!" said the Cleric, a quickened Righteous Might shooting him to giant size, and battle is joined.

After the fight, the party fighter looks at oversized cleric as he heals everyone in the party. "Don't you need time to buff?" he asks, as his burns and bruises are healed. He notes the cleric took MUCH less damage from the dragon's attacks then he did.

"Buffs? Oh, I cast most of those HOURS ago," the cleric says kindly.

Other than heroism on heroism domain WHAT buffs are cast pre combat ?

Non of the best... They are all minute per level maximum

Well, lessee.

Resist Energy.
Protection from Energy
Shield Other
Lesser Planar Ally
Planar Ally
Magic Vestment
Greater magical weapon
Magic Circle against Evil
Ride the waves * (situational, like Ward of the Seasons)
Air walk
heroes Feast
Spell Immunity/Greater
Gate

And of course, Heroism, Alter self, and other long duration domain spells.

I am pleased to see that many of the spells are now 1 min/level duration. But, with the advance of Quicken, it's still possible to get off a Divine Power and Righteous Might in the same round, which basically turns you into a base melee right there. WIth the ability to leverage GMW and MV for better armor adn weapons, and better defenses, esp against energy attacks, the cleric has NO problem at all performing the melee role if need be.

A quickened divine favor or divine shield can be cast in combat if desired, too.

Granted it used to be much worse, with persistent spell and the like. But remember the goal isn't to surpass what an optimized fighter can do...it's to perform the role of a melee character. And that's really not all that hard to do.

Das Bier wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Das Bier wrote:

Aye, Anti-magic Shells are useless unless you can force a caster into the shell. And that area is SMALL.

Spell Engine has a huge area, and you can make it nigh impossible for a caster NOT to enter the area of effect.

It's just such magic is too pricey for NPC's to use on a broad scale, when in actuality it should be pretty cheap and common. Wards and similar magical defenses are VERY common in literature, I don't know why they are so expensive in PF. Let casters labor under penalties, and rogues have a place to shrine.

IMC, spell engines are everywhere, restricting any spellcasters not sworn to the service of the city. Urban areas are the playgrounds of rogues and martials. Casters have to invest heavily in magical items of defense because they can't cast such spells themselves, have bodyguards, etc.

Not having spells makes the party weaker, and it you are a druid,or other fighty caster then you might still be able to give the melees a run for their money.

For the 2nd time in this discussion➡➡full arcane casters are not the only ones stepping on people's toes.

Well, duh, Wraithstrike.

It also makes NPC's weaker. Now, we have equity. In some situations spellcasters will be uninhibited and more effective then mundanes. In other situations, Casters will be suppressed and skills and fighty guys will shine. Tellingly, urban campaigns will favor skill, and rural adventures favor casters.

It makes monsters somewhat more dangerous in cities, because they are 'naturally buffed'. But then martial skill becomes even more important as long as the monsters can't cast, either.

Or the group could come to a better answer that makes more sense thematically. Casters are likely the ones creating these things, and I really doubt they are going to limit themselves like that without some way to bypass it.

In addition, other than GM Fiat there is no reason they(anti magic thingy) can't be destroyed. So the party would...

There are ways to kill a spell engine. Hitting it with a magic item or disintegrate works.

But most are concealed underground and in sealed chambers once set up (the effects radiate through stone). So, yeah, taking down the spell engine now becomes a goal so your casters can work. Just like taking down a spellcaster or flying base becomes a goal so your martials can go to work. Knocking out the spell engine becomes a goal as important as taking down a fortress, and THEN you have to worry about it simply being put back up from a scroll on hand!

And yes, NPC's WILL go after you. hence the need for bodyguards, defensive items, and strong allies. Just like casters will go after martials who can't defend themselves effectively, either! (Like the above guys who lost their buddy to a DC 32 stone to Flesh!)

Or, if you add a variant that allows you to make rings that can work in specific spell engines, and such are destroyed and must be re-equipped from a secure site every day, casters loyal to the master of the spell engine are uninhibited! Now casters get to feel what it's like to be on the end of spells when they can't reply in kind, too!

If you are kind, you could allow magic items to work, like wands and staves, so casters aren't totally helpless. I wouldn't, however, since that just means anyone could craft an item for a specific spell needed to do a job.

Casters would start having some real respect for martials. And it's not hard to do, and is just common sense.

As for casters 'not wanting to do this', temples, guilds and government forces loyal to the city would have little problems with this at all, especially if you use the 'rings' variant so they and they alone can still cast.

Equity can be a real pain. Casters provide themselves on being able to deal with anything. It's a pain when the same attitude can be turned around and fixed on THEM.

Das Bier wrote:

Aye, Anti-magic Shells are useless unless you can force a caster into the shell. And that area is SMALL.

Spell Engine has a huge area, and you can make it nigh impossible for a caster NOT to enter the area of effect.

It's just such magic is too pricey for NPC's to use on a broad scale, when in actuality it should be pretty cheap and common. Wards and similar magical defenses are VERY common in literature, I don't know why they are so expensive in PF. Let casters labor under penalties, and rogues have a place to shrine.

IMC, spell engines are everywhere, restricting any spellcasters not sworn to the service of the city. Urban areas are the playgrounds of rogues and martials. Casters have to invest heavily in magical items of defense because they can't cast such spells themselves, have bodyguards, etc.

I have bad news. That only works in 3.0. The 3.5 version of Spell Engine only allows a caster instantly to swap spells prepared for other spells from their spellbook.

actually it's a 1e spell originally. You can see it in the first or second spellfire novel, where it almost eats the spellfire wielder alive. I just liked the idea so much I yoinked it.

It got severely nerfed in area of effect in later versions, and basically was just a thing you could cast a magic missile at and then prepare spells in half the time...totally useless.

mm.

Orc bloodline is +1/die. Intense spells is +1/2 wizard level of 15, so +7. You can use Potent Spell to reach CL 25 and max out the spell if you can spend more then 1 arcane pool point, right?

So you'd be at 25d6 +25 (orc) +7 Caster level, for 25d6 +32 (182), +50%, so 12d6+16 (avg 58), for a total of 240. Note that a greater rod of maximize costs more then Empower.

Is there a magic item that would grant you the effects of an elemental or draconic bloodline for another +37?

:)

Das Bier wrote:

A battle cleric can replace a fighter in doing the fighter's job if they desire to. And then do other jobs if those are required.

Whereas the fighter can only do his own job, and doesn't have near the defenses a cleric does. Also, the fighter can't do near the damage a cleric can using his own class features. He MUST spend money, esp on consumables, to do so.

The cleric just casts them ahead of time.

Just, ugh.

The Dragon come near, roaring and charging the party.... Then.. A scream is shouted,!

STOP Mr dragon, said the cleric. " give me 15 casting rounds and than let's see who is the man ....."
The cleric return the fight, to see 3 dead party member and a dead Dragon next to the almost dead barbarian.
" well... " said the rightous giant cleric, " good thing I learned raise dead...

What you mean is:

The Dragon come near, roaring and charging the party.... Then.. A scream is shouted,!

"Buff up! We'll cover for you!" cries the party fighter nobly.

"No need!" said the Cleric, a quickened Righteous Might shooting him to giant size, and battle is joined.

After the fight, the party fighter looks at oversized cleric as he heals everyone in the party. "Don't you need time to buff?" he asks, as his burns and bruises are healed. He notes the cleric took MUCH less damage from the dragon's attacks then he did.

"Buffs? Oh, I cast most of those HOURS ago," the cleric says kindly.

Das Bier wrote:

The whole Tier 1 thing started with CoDzilla. Not WoSzilla. a 9 level caster with all the armor and weapons he can want, full access to every spell on a prepared caster list, decent combat ability, great saves...

And 9th level spells are capstone abilities more powerful then anything a fighter gets, and a cleric gets 5 or so, starting at level 17 instead of 20, that they can change EVERY DAY.

And wha, your melees couldn't deal 250 hp dmg/rd at 20? Someone needs to optimize their melees more. Heh!

The CoDzilla you're talking about does not exist in Pathfinder. Divine Power no longer increase BAB and doesn't stack with Divine Favor at all, the unholy trinity of persistent metamagic, divine metamagic, and nightsticks are all gone, and polymorphing has been nerfed dramatically.

No longer can the same cleric or druid be the strongest martial and a top caster without loaded stat dice. Indeed, it's really hard for them to be the strongest martial at all.

Atarlost, CoDzilla is based on CORE cleric or druid. Without all the add-ons. Core spells are THE most unbalanced spells in the game, when it comes down to it.

And with Rings of Continuity and stuff, Persistent spell cheese variants are perfectly possible.

And I did not say 'the strongest martial'. I said 'able to do the fighter's job, and then do other jobs.' There's a big difference.

Das Bier wrote:

Aye, Anti-magic Shells are useless unless you can force a caster into the shell. And that area is SMALL.

Spell Engine has a huge area, and you can make it nigh impossible for a caster NOT to enter the area of effect.

It's just such magic is too pricey for NPC's to use on a broad scale, when in actuality it should be pretty cheap and common. Wards and similar magical defenses are VERY common in literature, I don't know why they are so expensive in PF. Let casters labor under penalties, and rogues have a place to shrine.

IMC, spell engines are everywhere, restricting any spellcasters not sworn to the service of the city. Urban areas are the playgrounds of rogues and martials. Casters have to invest heavily in magical items of defense because they can't cast such spells themselves, have bodyguards, etc.

Not having spells makes the party weaker, and it you are a druid,or other fighty caster then you might still be able to give the melees a run for their money.

For the 2nd time in this discussion➡➡full arcane casters are not the only ones stepping on people's toes.

Well, duh, Wraithstrike.

It also makes NPC's weaker. Now, we have equity. In some situations spellcasters will be uninhibited and more effective then mundanes. In other situations, Casters will be suppressed and skills and fighty guys will shine. Tellingly, urban campaigns will favor skill, and rural adventures favor casters.

It makes monsters somewhat more dangerous in cities, because they are 'naturally buffed'. But then martial skill becomes even more important as long as the monsters can't cast, either.

Das Bier wrote:

Shield Master should have said "Your Primary weapon has no TH penalties from TWF while wielding a shield in your off hand."

WOuld've solved a LOT of problems that way.

Unless they were using the shield as their primary weapon...

In which case it would have no effect, because the shield is not in the off hand, no?

Now, if they were dual wielding shields, it would still mean only one weapon would benefit, the primary hand, not both hands. You can't have two primary hands, after all.

As it stands, a dual wielding shield user suffers no TWF penalties with Shield Master, which is blatantly unfair to all other TWF styles.

MY version caters to a sword and board user, making the shield the perfect accompanying weapon for SAB style, not penalizing your main weapon.

Intensified Empowered Maximized Firesnake with crossblooded +2/Die dmg, cast at cl 20 (doable by level 15 via Spell Spec and CL boosts doubled by Spell perfection).Use Magical lineage to reduce Intensified to +0. Spell Perfection pays off Maximize, Empower from Rod = uses 5th level spell slot. IF you double up with Wayang Spell Hunter for another -1 to the MM cost, you can cast it unaided from a level 6 slot (reducing Empower to +1).

20d6+40 Maxed = 160. 10d6+20 avg = +55. 215 damage base, 1/2 on save.

You can do the same with Cone of Cold or DB fireball, if you like. Me, I'd just customize a 5th level fireball with a 15d cap.

A battle cleric can replace a fighter in doing the fighter's job if they desire to. And then do other jobs if those are required.

Whereas the fighter can only do his own job, and doesn't have near the defenses a cleric does. Also, the fighter can't do near the damage a cleric can using his own class features. He MUST spend money, esp on consumables, to do so.

The cleric just casts them ahead of time.

Just, ugh.

Aye, Anti-magic Shells are useless unless you can force a caster into the shell. And that area is SMALL.

Spell Engine has a huge area, and you can make it nigh impossible for a caster NOT to enter the area of effect.

It's just such magic is too pricey for NPC's to use on a broad scale, when in actuality it should be pretty cheap and common. Wards and similar magical defenses are VERY common in literature, I don't know why they are so expensive in PF. Let casters labor under penalties, and rogues have a place to shrine.

IMC, spell engines are everywhere, restricting any spellcasters not sworn to the service of the city. Urban areas are the playgrounds of rogues and martials. Casters have to invest heavily in magical items of defense because they can't cast such spells themselves, have bodyguards, etc.