@SillyString: ...don't take my dream away, man. This has to be real!
We share that dream, brother!
But seriously, familiar archetypes are weird. Between this pseudo-improved familiar and the soulbound puppet focus power, its not black and white what can and cant take an archetype. The overall consensus for the puppet was "it functions like an ordinary familiar, so yes." and i'd say that magical child can also do so, but neither of these have been confirmed. Unless someone knows otherwise?
I might be missing some hidden nuance of awesomeness lurking beneath the dark waters of the Magical Child archetype, but I barely get how that character is supposed to be in any way decent in combat without a Mauler.
I might be missing some hidden nuance of awesomeness lurking beneath the dark waters of the Magical Child archetype, but I barely get how that character is supposed to be in any way decent in combat without a Mauler.
Yeah that's been mentioned, the response from "non-believers" was that not all archetypes are optimal or strong. -.-
Right. But why would you play it, though, when a Synthesist seems like it models this whole "magical girl" thing far more effectively? I'm not very familiar with the genre (I only ever saw that one show about the girls with the magical sailor outfits as a kid, dubbed into horrible Swedish), but is like the animal pal thing an important aspect? I thought it was all about transmorphing into a magicky...child...person?
I might be out of my depth here. The point is it's a very attention-grabbing, PC-centric character concept, but without access to maulers it seems like a glorified NPC class to me. Which maketh none of the sense.
No idea, i loath the whole magical girl crap so i know nothing about it. I can only comment on the opinions of people that respond to threads about apllying familiar archetypes and balancing power levels of class archetypes.
All I know is reflavoring it as a dude that transforms into a demonic familiar riding badass with dark summoning magics is a cool concept. Give him an oni costume and thats something i'd play in the right setting. Itd basically be an occult / dark spiritual themed hero of the night, so it'd fit the vigilante flavor just fine.
I don't really have anything further constructive to add to the Magical Child discussion. I just want to get one more post under my belt where I just generally restate my opinion that if it turns out you can't Mauler your animal guide everything sucks and I hate everyone.
There. Done.
Sincerely,
- Gears
you don't need a super high cha or wis to take advantage of the zealot.
Wis you just need high enough to cast your spells. So starting at a 14 is fine. Cha is just used for channeling and for your bonus accuracy and AC while smiting. So a 12-14 in cha gives you a little boost, but to me the big draw is the level to damage that can crit and DR bypassing.
No, but both need to be decent, plus DEX and/or STR.
It's a MAD class, nothing needs to be super high, but everything needs to be above mediocre, which is the problem.
You get virtually no choices on how to build and/or play the class.
Remember when we play tested the Warpriest and we all hated the fact that you needed WIS and CHA to do anything? Remember how they fixed that in the final version? This class does that and worse because it literally just gives you some of the inquisitor chassis, but not the good parts. The archetype is bad, and it's a damn shame because of how well the playtest version was.
Spontaneous CHA casting of divine spells was the best part of the class, because you had choices to switch lists. You also got more spells added to your list based on your source of power. You also got a unique ability. Of all the play test versions of the class, the Zealot was the one that felt like it was going somewhere and now it's all gone.
No idea, i loath the whole magical girl crap so i know nothing about it. I can only comment on the opinions of people that respond to threads about apllying familiar archetypes and balancing power levels of class archetypes.
All I know is reflavoring it as a dude that transforms into a demonic familiar riding badass with dark summoning magics is a cool concept. Give him an oni costume and thats something i'd play in the right setting. Itd basically be an occult / dark spiritual themed hero of the night, so it'd fit the vigilante flavor just fine.
Now that last part is a pretty cool idea -- I wouldn't say that I loathe the original concept (although I strongly suspect that I WOULD if I watched some of the anime films that inspired it), but I was at sort of a loss with respect to what to do with it, again because I HAVEN'T done that. But I think I just might steal your idea -- but at least 50% chance that I further reflavor it back to a female character, but she's at least as Demonic as the Familiar . . . .
I agree that the playtest vigilante was super cool. Definitely my favorite archetype.
Oddly, I figured out another direction we can take the Magical Child. He-Man. Flashy magical transformation sequence? Check. Doesn't wear heavy or medium armor? What armor does he even wear? So check on that. Has a familiar-ish companion that can transform into another identity separate from its civilian counterpart? Battlecat makes that a solid check. Proficient in martial weapons? Power Sword looks like a longsword or a broadsword, so check again.
Now to figure out a way to make it.
I think the mounted archetype works better for he-man.
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just wanted to add, although you said halfings Vigilante make you laugh, if built for super stealth and high cha. a stalker Vigilante with this can stop his enemies without ever leaving stealth using only "Twisting Fear" talent. though some might argue the feat's flavor text is for bogbears only.
and halflings got TONS of stealth options. (like the trait that let them hide in normal light in one favored terrain(pick urban). add the fast sneaking ability and the "Spook" is ready to sow some terror!!
What happens if you just forgo the entire social/vigilantee persona thing? The vigilantee has a lot of cool tricks without it, and it seems to fit a wider variety of character concepts than caped crusader.
So if i just ditch the dual identies thing what happens? You can't use the social talents? You just show up as the same person for divinations?
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Well, if you're going to ditch the dual identities you want to be in normal form, as in normal form you get the social bonuses and can still use vigilante abilities. If you go vigilante form you don't get your social bonuses. And I think there's far less reliant on being in vigilante form.
In the play test, the Zealot had casting based off CHA, and had different divine sources for his powers. It was a unique class, not a s#$& half inquisitor knock off with social talents.
The archetype is garbage and it needs to be dark red.
To what extent do people think the Harsh Judgment vigilante talent from Inner Sea Intrigue makes the vigilante more attractive?
It's still MAD, and requires talent expenditures to get good stuff. But at least now you can yield smite + judgments instead of just smite... Is that enough to make the archetype orange?
EDIT: Though there are now conflicting reports as to whether Harsh Judgment is for zealots only or not... (I don't have the book myself.)
Harsh Judgement is Zealot only.
I think they noticed that they botched on the Zealot and introduced this as a fix. Or it was a some kineving villains plan from the start :)
With both Smite and Judgement you can prolly do damage comparable to an inquisitor, but you are also not gaining any vigilant talents before level 12...so this is still just a worse inquisitor.
It's basically the Judgement class feature rolled into a talent.
Is the pdf even out?
it is for subscribers
People say Zealot was better in Playtest: how much better?
The ursine wild soul is likely a Sir Bearington reference, and suffers accordingly for being based on a joke from 4chan.
I could see it having gotten started as a Wolverine reference, but then halfway through it's design they realized they just could not give a pc unconditional regeneration and had to scramble for an alternative animal socialite. Also, Marvel has worked pretty hard to make people forget Wolverine's Patch phase, so there's that.
So I'd like to field a question:
While it's true that keeping your dual identities separate isn't strictly necessary to use the vast majority of your powers, it still seems useful to keep a secret alter-ego from a RP standpoint.
Now, Seamless Guise grants you a +20 on your Disguise check unless you use a Vigilante Power while in your Social identity. Yet some of these powers seem constant.
For example, Armor Skin:
The vigilante's armor is like a second skin. He doesn't apply the armor check penalty for light and medium armor on Acrobatics, Escape Artist, or Stealth checks. This penalty applies on other skill checks as normal. At 8th level, he can move at full speed in medium armor.
Now, to my knowledge, there's no way to turn off the ability to move at full speed in medium armor, so after 8th level, moving out and about in anything heavier than a chain shirt would basically give away your secret.
So the question: if this is the case, shouldn't the guide reflect on how easy it is to hide a Vigilante Power?
If you're in normal form you just purposely move slower and don't do those check or not wear armor.
If you're in normal form you just purposely move slower and don't do those check or not wear armor.
A reasonable house-rule option, but they never spelled that out as a choice. IDK, if there's a rules discussion page over this, I've not seen it, and I imagine that's probably best to assume that there'd be enough table variance to at least acknowledge the possibility that anyone seeing you in medium armor will have a chance to notice that there's something different about how you move.
Likewise, there are other abilities that have similar issues that are much more cut and dry. For example, if you take a longbow as your Signature Weapon, you risk exposure anytime you go to use a longbow, even if you're pretending to be the Captain of the Elf Queen's royal guard. And don't ever use your fist or gauntlet in public again if you've taken Fist of the Avenger. Further, no Dex Atk/ Str Dmg melee weapons if you've taken Lethal Grace. And Twisting Fear makes it so that you auto-deal Nonlethal damage each time you make someone gain Shaken, so no more Intimidation while you're in your Social guise.
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If you wanna disguise how well you move or be unnoticed using abilities or feats granted by the vigilante identity, that's what disguise checks are for and said as such in the Vigilante Talents section:
If the vigilante uses any of these talents while in his social identity, he must succeed at a Disguise check against the Perception checks of all onlookers (without the +20 circumstance bonus from seamless guise) or the onlookers will realize that he is more than his social identity appears to be and perhaps discover the social and vigilante identities are one and the same.
Fist of the Avenger: attack in a cowardly slap fight, but it seems comically effective.
Signature Weapon: make it look like a lucky shot.
Lethal Grace: "Oh look, that monster must have been more weakened than we initially thought if the courtesan killed it smacking it with a fan."
Armor skin: you can make it look like the armor is impeding you more than it actually is.
And yea, if your vigilante talents make you super effective in combat and you don't want to have a social identity known to be good at combat, maybe don't use optimal conditions/actions for social identity to be good at combat? You don't see Clark Kent/Bruce Wayne/Peter Parker/Sir Percy Blakeney/Don Diego de la Vega throwing themselves into every fist fight they run into. They aid another for allies or proper authorities in subtle or overt ways or if they gotta do it more directly they make it look like flukes or a lucky hit with an improvised weapon.
If you wanna disguise how well you move or be unnoticed using abilities or feats granted by the vigilante identity, that's what disguise checks are for and said as such in the Vigilante Talents section:
If the vigilante uses any of these talents while in his social identity, he must succeed at a Disguise check against the Perception checks of all onlookers (without the +20 circumstance bonus from seamless guise) or the onlookers will realize that he is more than his social identity appears to be and perhaps discover the social and vigilante identities are one and the same.Fist of the Avenger: attack in a cowardly slap fight, but it seems comically effective.
Signature Weapon: make it look like a lucky shot.
Lethal Grace: "Oh look, that monster must have been more weakened than we initially thought if the courtesan killed it smacking it with a fan."
Armor skin: you can make it look like the armor is impeding you more than it actually is.
And yea, if your vigilante talents make you super effective in combat and you don't want to have a social identity known to be good at combat, maybe don't use optimal conditions/actions for social identity to be good at combat? You don't see Clark Kent/Bruce Wayne/Peter Parker/Sir Percy Blakeney/Don Diego de la Vega throwing themselves into every fist fight they run into. They aid another for allies or proper authorities in subtle or overt ways or if they gotta do it more directly they make it look like flukes or a lucky hit with an improvised weapon.
I agree you shouldn't use your social identity to fight. You also shouldn't stand by while you watch your allies/friends get killed by a sudden and unexpected attack on the streets of Absalom.
My point is that certain Vigilante talents are more crippling to your combat effectiveness while you are in your social identity than others. Sure, Bruce Wayne, for example, doesn't jump into every fist fight he sees. But he does jump in, on multiple occasions, as Bruce Wayne.
Last, I was aware of the rules under the Vigilante Talents for disguising your use of Vigilante Talents. But since you do lose your +20 bonus from Seamless Disguise, and trying to regain your secret identity is actually much more difficult than coming back from the dead, trusting that Disguise check to work every time is not something you should do. In front of 60, there's an average of 3 people who get a 20 on their perception check, and it's only a matter of time before you roll a 1.
If you're in normal form you just purposely move slower and don't do those check or not wear armor.A reasonable house-rule option, but they never spelled that out as a choice. IDK, if there's a rules discussion page over this, I've not seen it, and I imagine that's probably best to assume that there'd be enough table variance to at least acknowledge the possibility that anyone seeing you in medium armor will have a chance to notice that there's something different about how you move.
Likewise, there are other abilities that have similar issues that are much more cut and dry. For example, if you take a longbow as your Signature Weapon, you risk exposure anytime you go to use a longbow, even if you're pretending to be the Captain of the Elf Queen's royal guard. And don't ever use your fist or gauntlet in public again if you've taken Fist of the Avenger. Further, no Dex Atk/ Str Dmg melee weapons if you've taken Lethal Grace. And Twisting Fear makes it so that you auto-deal Nonlethal damage each time you make someone gain Shaken, so no more Intimidation while you're in your Social guise.
Quite a bit of that is bunk. A longbow as the Signature Weapon doesn't mean that you never use it again if you are pretending to be the Captain of the Elf Queen's guard. You just use a different longbow. Have a second weapon to act as your actual Signature Weapon. You can simply choose not to use Deadly Aim and the like in the social identity. Same thing with Deadly Grace. Use a different weapon. Your vigilante identity uses daggers or a shortsword as their primary weapon? Then let your social identity use a swordcane or something equally separate from your night life.
Having certain vigilante qualities should not prevent you from using them in the civilian identity, so long as you think carefully about it. Part of playing the Vigilante is the ability to utilize specific details as part of your disguises. A mobile Avenger with a two-handed weapon could have a social identity that pretends to need a cane to walk. Simple misdirection can do a lot to free up your ability to affect combat without compromising your secret identity.
Also, is there any particular reason that someone whose night life is as an Avenger or something can't simply be an accomplished fighter in their social identity? Just because people know very well that Admiral Eagle has an extremely powerful and flamboyant punch he uses to crush his enemies doesn't mean people looking for Admiral Eagle are going to start bothering every well-known boxer in town.
Of course, from what I can tell if you really don't want to burden the party with three of them simply being who they are all the time while you're trying to lead a double life, I also don't see why you can't just go Iron Man and be a superhero whose identity is known. If the people who matter most to you are your party members I'd imagine they're not exactly going to be any easier for your enemies to come after than you are.
Someone clearly hasn't read or seen Civil War yet..... js
I thought this might be a good place to start asking, and this question falls in line with Blackwaltzomega's. So here goes, after reading the gazetteer on Egorian in the last AP, I want to build a tiefling vigilante. This will probably have to be a zealot archetype, to give him access to divine spellcasting. But his two identities are as follows, his social identity is an aasimar paladin of Abadar, or at least enough to pass as one, and then his vigilante identity is that of a tiefling worshiper of Milani. Can I make this viable? It almost seems like I can't use my spellcasting ability or any other vigilante ability in my social identity without having penalties incur to find out both of them. I would appreciate any thoughts on this, and maybe I'm just too early for this idea and it will come out as an archetype in the future.
What phase is that?
Wolverine spent a short period on Madripoor pretending to be a superspy socialite. He owned a nightclub, carried a pistol, did the whole disguise thing; basically it was the period where he would belong in this class. His alias was Patch, after the eyepatch he wore.
Apologies that this is only tangentially related to the guide at hand.
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The guide has been mostly updated to include Inner Sea Intrigue, the exception being Anaphexia Thought-killer which I can't really rate because it's full of typos that will actively change my view on it. Also added a Final Thoughts section for Zealot explaining why I rated it green despite popular opinion that it's a worse inquisitor. tl;dr: it's not, because the only archetype that's a worse *other class* is the Gunmaster. Zealot doesn't look like anything other than an inquisitor because you look at the archetype and only see the inquisitor options it gives you, which conveniently makes you forget all the other talents you can take instead after obviously grabbing Zealot Smite (or Harsh Judgment) because obviously.
Regarding the "Rogue Talent" Stalker Talent, you say "If you have a method of getting a Ki Pool somehow, then Rogue Talent->Ninja Trick->Vanishing Trick can be nice to remove dependency on the party spellcaster."
I'd like to point out that there's the "Ki Pool" Rogue Talent that the Stalker might take
FedoraFerret, what if you titled the Cabalist section of your guide "How to be Raven?"
I think she's about the closest fit one can get to the Cabalist's rather spooky talent set.
Regarding the "Rogue Talent" Stalker Talent, you say "If you have a method of getting a Ki Pool somehow, then Rogue Talent->Ninja Trick->Vanishing Trick can be nice to remove dependency on the party spellcaster."
I'd like to point out that there's the "Ki Pool" Rogue Talent that the Stalker might take
Unfortunately Rogue Talent doesn't specify you can take it more than once, so that would mean no vanishing trick as a result.
FedoraFerret, what if you titled the Cabalist section of your guide "How to be Raven?"
I think she's about the closest fit one can get to the Cabalist's rather spooky talent set.
Yeah we'll go with Raven, seems most logical. Will include in the next update.
Raven is the best.
Unfortunately Rogue Talent doesn't specify you can take it more than once, so that would mean no vanishing trick as a result.Regarding the "Rogue Talent" Stalker Talent, you say "If you have a method of getting a Ki Pool somehow, then Rogue Talent->Ninja Trick->Vanishing Trick can be nice to remove dependency on the party spellcaster."
I'd like to point out that there's the "Ki Pool" Rogue Talent that the Stalker might take
Technically though, it does mean you qualify for the extra rogue talent feat. That, in my eyes, in 90% of the reason to consider the talent.
Ooo.. stalker to ki pool rogue talent= Unchained ninja here we go!
yes
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So on the topic of Social Identity being caught in combat, I found out something fun. I'm building an Avenger that focuses on the Snake Style feats, and the +4 bonus to Sense Motive would be a really nice boon. Of course, this risks revealing your identity, but you could always take Disguise as your second Social Grace skill. Either that or go full Iron Man, as mentioned before.
Also, I wanted a second opinion on that build. I'm thinking of a Vishkanya Avenger Vigilante, using Two Weapon Fighting, Fist of the Avenger, Lethal Grace, Shield of Blades, and Signature Weapon to try as hard as I can to keep the unarmed strike from falling off. How well do you think this would hold up in the 8-12 level range, assuming I started with a Strength score of 10?
Has anyone else noticed that all the Vigilante talents the Wildsoul archetype replaces are the exact Vigilante talents that any of the spellcasting archetypes do not replace?
I think Paizo did that on purpose.
Has anyone else noticed that all the Vigilante talents the Wildsoul archetype replaces are the exact Vigilante talents that any of the spellcasting archetypes do not replace?
I think Paizo did that on purpose.
I have! Unfortunately, all of the casting archetypes besides Magical Child alter talents by adding new talents. There's no real precedent for that to be the case, but it is.
Not that it matters even if you are a Magical Child because of the most pointless words ever in an archetype.
This alters vigilante specialization and replaces the vigilante talents gained at 2nd, 6th, 12th, and 18th levels.