Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Shadows (PFRPG)


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I know there was a question about the Oracle mystery and Psychic discipline:

Spoiler:

Oracle- Cool illusion spells, including Invisibility. You can pick up darkness/shadow spells, summon shadow critters, inhabit your shadow for an hour/level (!) although your body is vulnerable, get darkvision, increase shadow spell reality, stealth like a boss, gaseous form it up (eventually shadow body), and steal wings of darkness and cloak of darkness from Dark Tapestry.

Psychic- Wisdom-based. Not too flashy, but nice. 1st level ability is ~essentially~ extra spells known, and you to get phrenic points back for using them. 5th, get extra AC while concealed. 13th, stealth in plain sight near shadows and a stealth bonus.


Curious if there's anything else interesting about the Dusk Knight besides See In Darkness at 15.


Zangy wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Not planning to get this one, but super excited about new style feats and would love more info.

Blinded Blade Style lets you not take penalties to strength/dex-based skills due to blindness. You get bonuses to perception checks that don't involve sight. You also get limited scent and the ability to ignore perception prereqs for the blindfight feats (kinda).

Blinded Competence lets you hit things without even making perception checks with your weapon.

Blinded Master lets you pinpoint creatures while using the style like blindsight to 30 feet. And you get bonuses against feinting.

Cloak and Dagger lets you use a dirty trick in the surprise round in addition to an attack with a weapon you pick out (light melee). And, if someone would try to remove a dirty trick condition, it provokes an attack of opportunity from you.

Cloak and Dagger Subterfuge lets you make a free dirty trick against someone that you make an attack of opportunity against. Then, if you succeed on a dirty trick, you can make a free steal check against them.

Cloak and Dagger Tactics lets you attempt dirty tricks for more things (vital strikes, flanked opponents, or denied dex), and if you succeed, they make a fort save (int based) or they take even more penalties.

Base abilities. There are more to each of those, but those are the basics.

Cloak and Dagger sounds amazing and it may replace Kitsune Style in all builds I propose that deal with Dirty tricks. That being said, INT-based third feat makes it more of a Truestrike Magus thing at first glance, or perhaps Slayer.

Regarding Blinded Blade, I guess I'll have to read it more thoroughly once it becomes released. Sounds very solid for Fighters. Wish I could say the same about UnMonks, but they need Ascetic Style in the first place to use blades effectively... or does it work with unarmed?

Calth wrote:

The shadow bloodrager bloodline was actually kinda disappointing.

** spoiler omitted **

The capstone is can either be incredibly good to useless depending on the enemy at that point, but overall, its a pretty limited bloodline.

Seems like the ranged-friendly bloodline we needed so badly.


Pathfinder Maps, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Would anyone be able to tell me what the Gloom Chymist gets while I wait for my pdf?


Secret Wizard wrote:
Seems like the ranged-friendly bloodline we needed so badly.

Not really, the bonus damage at level 8 is melee only and the level 12 ability is melee only.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Secret Wizard wrote:
Cloak and Dagger sounds amazing and it may replace Kitsune Style in all builds I propose that deal with Dirty tricks. That being said, INT-based third feat makes it more of a Truestrike Magus thing at first glance, or perhaps Slayer.

The main drawback is the requirements. Four feats (two overlapping with Kitsune style requirements, naturally) and +6 BAB for entry on the first one. Since one of those also has +6 BAB requirement, you can't actually take it until 7th, 8th, or 9th level depending on what bonus feats you get. Each additional piece of the chain requires an extra +5 BAB. Doesn't come with the usual Monk level equivalent. If you could take the first feat, you could have the entire Kitsune Style chain instead. I'd view Kitsune Style as the low-level option, and Cloak and Dagger as a better high-level choice.

Jack of Dust wrote:
Would anyone be able to tell me what the Gloom Chymist gets while I wait for my pdf?

It's pretty cool. You get glooms instead of bombs. They work the same way as bombs, but they deal cold damage and don't count as bombs. (No bomb modification discoveries, no Extra Bombs feat, no Precise Bombs, etc.) Which sounds pretty terrible at first, but you get some really nice modification options. Negative levels, black tentacles, difficult terrain, and so on. You trade out all your poison abilities for an extra rider- your bombs can increase or decrease the light level by one step in their splash radius.


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Love the Beaming weapon property! I can now create a simpler variant of the super-cool Starbow while waiting to be able to afford/find the real one!

I think I am missing something regarding these spells though:
Dancing Darkness(1st level) and Motes of Dusk and Dawn (3rd). They seem to do the same yet are two different levels. I just have not gotten the nuances of these spells, I guess. EDIT: the 3rd changes illumination levels by 2 steps rather than 1...I guess I expected more.

Great job on this book, by the way. It might be the best "Blood of" yet, IMO.

Paizo Employee Developer

Fourshadow wrote:
Love the Beaming weapon property! I can now create a simpler variant of the super-cool Starbow while waiting to be able to afford/find the real one!

I had a great time making these items, so I'm glad you like it! Fun fact: If you play or know League of Legends, the property is inspired by the Runaan's Hurricane item.


Luis Loza wrote:
Fourshadow wrote:
Love the Beaming weapon property! I can now create a simpler variant of the super-cool Starbow while waiting to be able to afford/find the real one!
I'm glad you like it! I had a great time making them.

Nicely balanced with being tied to the weapon bonus! Excellent work. It felt like it was made just for me...*sniffle, sniffle* :)

Nice thematic for those characters who wish to "pierce the dark" and do not have access to cleric/oracle spells. Thank you very much!


QuidEst wrote:

I know there was a question about the Oracle mystery and Psychic discipline:

** spoiler omitted **

That oracle mystery sounds really interesting. Definitely looking forward to this... Only a few. More. Weeks...


QuidEst wrote:
Jack of Dust wrote:
Would anyone be able to tell me what the Gloom Chymist gets while I wait for my pdf?
It's pretty cool. You get glooms instead of bombs. They work the same way as bombs, but they deal cold damage and don't count as bombs. (No bomb modification discoveries, no Extra Bombs feat, no Precise Bombs, etc.) Which sounds pretty terrible at first, but you get some really nice modification options. Negative levels, black tentacles, difficult terrain, and so on. You trade out all your poison abilities for an extra rider- your bombs can increase or decrease the light level by one step in their splash radius.

Sounds like a great tool for someone looking to make a control-based Alchemist rather than doing damage. I approve.

Paizo Employee Developer

Arachnofiend wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Jack of Dust wrote:
Would anyone be able to tell me what the Gloom Chymist gets while I wait for my pdf?
It's pretty cool. You get glooms instead of bombs. They work the same way as bombs, but they deal cold damage and don't count as bombs. (No bomb modification discoveries, no Extra Bombs feat, no Precise Bombs, etc.) Which sounds pretty terrible at first, but you get some really nice modification options. Negative levels, black tentacles, difficult terrain, and so on. You trade out all your poison abilities for an extra rider- your bombs can increase or decrease the light level by one step in their splash radius.
Sounds like a great tool for someone looking to make a control-based Alchemist rather than doing damage. I approve.

Glad to hear it! It's a shame some of the additional glooms had to hit the cutting room floor.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I don't know that anybody asked, but Rogues will be pretty happy with this book.

Spoiler:
Archetype with darkvision from first level, can cast Darkness by level 4. There's some other stuff to it, but that should be pretty nice draw.

Lots of great talents like:
- Scaring Barbarians (and anybody else) out of their morale bonuses
- Darkness 2/day without affecting the Rogue's vision. Follow it up with Deeper Darkness 1/day, same perk.
- Poison Use, at long last!
- Improved Dirty Trick ignoring pre-reqs, but they have to wait a round to remove it if you pick blindness.

The advanced talents aren't bad either:
- Conceal alignment while using Disguise Self SLA. (No save, not pierced by True Seeing, etc.)
- Reposition with a skill check.
- Upgrade Darkvision to See In Darkness.

More of both, but those are some of my favorites.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Luis Loza wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Jack of Dust wrote:
Would anyone be able to tell me what the Gloom Chymist gets while I wait for my pdf?
It's pretty cool. You get glooms instead of bombs. They work the same way as bombs, but they deal cold damage and don't count as bombs. (No bomb modification discoveries, no Extra Bombs feat, no Precise Bombs, etc.) Which sounds pretty terrible at first, but you get some really nice modification options. Negative levels, black tentacles, difficult terrain, and so on. You trade out all your poison abilities for an extra rider- your bombs can increase or decrease the light level by one step in their splash radius.
Sounds like a great tool for someone looking to make a control-based Alchemist rather than doing damage. I approve.
Glad to hear it! It's a shame some of the additional glooms had to hit the cutting room floor.

Sad to hear they didn't all get in, but the selection that did make the cut was really good. And it's not like Alchemist is lacking in non-bomb discoveries to take.

Paizo Employee Developer

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QuidEst wrote:
Luis Loza wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Jack of Dust wrote:
Would anyone be able to tell me what the Gloom Chymist gets while I wait for my pdf?
It's pretty cool. You get glooms instead of bombs. They work the same way as bombs, but they deal cold damage and don't count as bombs. (No bomb modification discoveries, no Extra Bombs feat, no Precise Bombs, etc.) Which sounds pretty terrible at first, but you get some really nice modification options. Negative levels, black tentacles, difficult terrain, and so on. You trade out all your poison abilities for an extra rider- your bombs can increase or decrease the light level by one step in their splash radius.
Sounds like a great tool for someone looking to make a control-based Alchemist rather than doing damage. I approve.
Glad to hear it! It's a shame some of the additional glooms had to hit the cutting room floor.
Sad to hear they didn't all get in, but the selection that did make the cut was really good. And it's not like Alchemist is lacking in non-bomb discoveries to take.

I really think the gloom chymist is a great well of design ideas to draw from. I seriously could have filled that whole section with different glooms. I hope this is recognized and the gloom chymist hits the RPG line someday. Also, throw some praise to Owen, as the archetype was his idea.

Scarab Sages Developer

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I really like the idea for the gloom chemist, and I really liked Luis' work on it. I also wish we'd had more room for additional glooms - but maybe someday I'll have a good reason to revisit them. :)

Contributor

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
I really like the idea for the gloom chemist, and I really liked Luis' work on it. I also wish we'd had more room for additional glooms - but maybe someday I'll have a good reason to revisit them. :)

You could always pitch "Wayangs of Golarion" to the higher-ups. I'm sure Luis and I could sneak more glooms in there if you commissioned us.... ;D

Contributor

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And as long as we're talking about things we liked. I'm REALLY grateful that Owen let me roll with Flexible Shadow Jump and Extra Shadow Jump. I feel like those two feats alone make shadowdancers incredibly more fun to play because they loosen the ropes on one of their most iconic abilities.

Granted, it also means that shadowdancers care a LOT more about their feats now. Perhaps somewhere down the line the Player Companion line will have a place where we could let the shadowdancer pick those feats up as rogue talents or something.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alexander Augunas wrote:

And as long as we're talking about things we liked. I'm REALLY grateful that Owen let me roll with Flexible Shadow Jump and Extra Shadow Jump. I feel like those two feats alone make shadowdancers incredibly more fun to play because they loosen the ropes on one of their most iconic abilities.

Granted, it also means that shadowdancers care a LOT more about their feats now. Perhaps somewhere down the line the Player Companion line will have a place where we could let the shadowdancer pick those feats up as rogue talents or something.

Or heck, make a miracle feat that counts as Dodge, Mobility, and/or Combat Reflexes for prestige class requirements to make entry a bit more bearable on your feat progression. I really like the class, but find what it offers isn't worth taking two+ feats I normally wouldn't.

Though that usually ends up just leaving an awkward feeling of trying to patch without errata.


Just got mine, and have only skimmed for what I was looking for. My first question is why does the Shadow Oracle Mystery have Lao Shu Po as a related diety but the Shadow Subdomain does not?

Since this is a Golarion specific product, I was hoping for at least a little support for the fact that previous publications had stated that Lao Shu Po was the favorite deity of the Wayangs. Was there a deliberate decision to try to downplay the rat-Wayang connection?

We only ended up with two Wayang specific feats, one of which is based off of an alternate racial trait.


QuidEst wrote:

I don't know that anybody asked, but Rogues will be pretty happy with this book.

** spoiler omitted **

Can Slayers use any of the Rogue talents?

Contributor

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Xethik wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:

And as long as we're talking about things we liked. I'm REALLY grateful that Owen let me roll with Flexible Shadow Jump and Extra Shadow Jump. I feel like those two feats alone make shadowdancers incredibly more fun to play because they loosen the ropes on one of their most iconic abilities.

Granted, it also means that shadowdancers care a LOT more about their feats now. Perhaps somewhere down the line the Player Companion line will have a place where we could let the shadowdancer pick those feats up as rogue talents or something.

Or heck, make a miracle feat that counts as Dodge, Mobility, and/or Combat Reflexes for prestige class requirements to make entry a bit more bearable on your feat progression. I really like the class, but find what it offers isn't worth taking two+ feats I normally wouldn't.

Though that usually ends up just leaving an awkward feeling of trying to patch without errata.

I would rather make rogue talents for the shadowdancer that makes Dodge, Mobility, and Combat Reflex more important to the shadowdancer experience. Removing prerequisites like that is a tricky notion because the fact is that while a feat like Flexible Shadow Jump is a power boost to the shadowdancer, its done so at an opportunity cost (a feat). Your proposed feat would have the opposite effect; it would be an unapologetic example of power creep because it specifically circumvents the game's power progression.

A feat that functions as Dodge is doable (see Artful Dodge). A feat that functions as Mobility is doable. A feat that functions as both is power creep.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Alexander Augunas wrote:

And as long as we're talking about things we liked. I'm REALLY grateful that Owen let me roll with Flexible Shadow Jump and Extra Shadow Jump. I feel like those two feats alone make shadowdancers incredibly more fun to play because they loosen the ropes on one of their most iconic abilities.

Granted, it also means that shadowdancers care a LOT more about their feats now. Perhaps somewhere down the line the Player Companion line will have a place where we could let the shadowdancer pick those feats up as rogue talents or something.

Or at some point, there could just be an unchained shadowdancer^^

Right now shadowdancer and sorcerer are my two favorite candidates for more support and becoming unchained.
Well sorcerers need more normal support too.


So how does the Eidolon look ?

Contributor

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BardWannabe wrote:

Just got mine, and have only skimmed for what I was looking for. My first question is why does the Shadow Oracle Mystery have Lao Shu Po as a related diety but the Shadow Subdomain does not?

Since this is a Golarion specific product, I was hoping for at least a little support for the fact that previous publications had stated that Lao Shu Po was the favorite deity of the Wayangs. Was there a deliberate decision to try to downplay the rat-Wayang connection?

We only ended up with two Wayang specific feats, one of which is based off of an alternate racial trait.

Well, the Shadow subdomain appears in the drow section, so I'm sure whomever wrote those pages wasn't thinking about wayangs when they designed it; they were probably thinking of drow and half-drow. In contrast, the shadow mystery appears in the wayang section, and obviously I WAS thinking about wayang, so it appears there. I think adding it to Lao Shu Po is fair for GM territory, however.

Stuff About Clerics:
Domains and Subdomains are SUPER hard to write from a world setting point of view, especially in the wake of Inner Sea Gods. On one hand, you want to continue to redefine the cleric class and give it some love because clerics don't get many nice things that aren't spells on account of how hard they are to design for. On the other hand, Inner Sea Gods has this BEAUTIFUL table listing the domains and subdomains of every major deity in Pathfinder, and adding new subdomains technically invalidates Inner Sea God's appendix. Its a lose/lose situation when you get down to it, really. Whether or not this factors into what you're seeing here, I can't say.

I can't say whether or not there was a deliberate attempt to downplay Lao Shu Po as their favorite deity, but here's my thinking: favorite doesn't mean "racial deity," and this wasn't a spread about Lao Shu Po. Maybe that'll happen in a sequel to Inner Sea Faiths or something. Instead, this was about the wayang; who they are and what they believe. As trespassers on the Material Plane, more emphasis was put on the concept of the Dissolution, which is really fantastic and nihilistic when you stop and think about what wayangs actually believe. To them, "paradise" is the dour entropy of the Shadow Plane. Wowzers. It was way more fun to write about that then to cram a few more lines in about a deity that isn't even Wayang specific or depicted as a wayang.

I originally wrote more feats, but they didn't make it to print. That's the business. Regardless, I am much happier anyway that the druid Favored Class Bonus that I wrote for the wayang made it into print. It was a grand experiment and I'm glad Paizo thought it was cool!


Ohhh the Gloomchymist sounds super fun! Is it exclusive to Wayangs or?

Also I would love to hear more about the Dusk Knight. :o

Thank you all for sharing, and thank you to all of the amazing people who worked on this book.

Contributor

Hayato Ken wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:

And as long as we're talking about things we liked. I'm REALLY grateful that Owen let me roll with Flexible Shadow Jump and Extra Shadow Jump. I feel like those two feats alone make shadowdancers incredibly more fun to play because they loosen the ropes on one of their most iconic abilities.

Granted, it also means that shadowdancers care a LOT more about their feats now. Perhaps somewhere down the line the Player Companion line will have a place where we could let the shadowdancer pick those feats up as rogue talents or something.

Or at some point, there could just be an unchained shadowdancer^^

Right now shadowdancer and sorcerer are my two favorite candidates for more support and becoming unchained.
Well sorcerers need more normal support too.

Neither needs to be unchained, in my opinion. Shadowdancers just need small nuggets of love here and there; the sheer insanity that is their shadow companion is vastly downplayed by most power games. In earnest, that companion is probably the most powerful "minion" in the game. Sorcerers are likewise amazing, and really only need small tweaks in order to make them more customizable and unique.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:

And as long as we're talking about things we liked. I'm REALLY grateful that Owen let me roll with Flexible Shadow Jump and Extra Shadow Jump. I feel like those two feats alone make shadowdancers incredibly more fun to play because they loosen the ropes on one of their most iconic abilities.

Granted, it also means that shadowdancers care a LOT more about their feats now. Perhaps somewhere down the line the Player Companion line will have a place where we could let the shadowdancer pick those feats up as rogue talents or something.

Or at some point, there could just be an unchained shadowdancer^^

Right now shadowdancer and sorcerer are my two favorite candidates for more support and becoming unchained.
Well sorcerers need more normal support too.

Neither needs to be unchained, in my opinion. Shadowdancers just need small nuggets of love here and there; the sheer insanity that is their shadow companion is vastly downplayed by most power games. In earnest, that companion is probably the most powerful "minion" in the game. Sorcerers are likewise amazing, and really only need small tweaks in order to make them more customizable and unique.

Ehm, i want it to be unchained in the same way the summoner and the eidolon got unchained. Downplayed a bit but made more awesome in other ways. Exactly for the reason of the shadow for being such a powerful tool that it brings many GM´s to madness.

Also, in comparison to arcanists and psychics, sorcerers have a real hard time. Can´t remember when i last saw a sorcerer in play actually that was not in the Core Campaign. Looking at the stuff you normaly write, i´m pretty certain your "customizable and unique" will meet my wishes there though.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
nighttree wrote:

So how does the Eidolon look ?

Not too shabby!

Spoiler:
It's any non-good, so any alignment can take it. You'll probably want darkvision, though.
- All body types, but no accommodation for all those subtype-specific options. (No mount, sting, tentacle, etc.)
- Right off the bat, get Darkness 3/day. Eventually gets upgraded to Deeper.
- Followed up with extra miss chance stuff for anything less than bright light.
- Gets DR/Magic. While that's the weakest of DRs, it comes with some other stuff.
- Upgrades Darkness to Deeper Darkness. There's no choice to use the lower version, but you get see in darkness.
- More DR/Magic, comes with other stuff as well since the DR applies against so little.
- Shadow step at-will, quickened 3/day.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
pixierose wrote:

Ohhh the Gloomchymist sounds super fun! Is it exclusive to Wayangs or?

Also I would love to hear more about the Dusk Knight. :o

Thank you all for sharing, and thank you to all of the amazing people who worked on this book.

None of the archetypes are restricted.

Dusk Knight

Spoiler:

Doesn't trade out Smite, Lay On Hands, Divine Grace, or spells. Since that's the bulk of what makes a Pally good, you can't go wrong. The biggest thing they lose is Divine Bond, traded out for Blind Fight feats.
You get some stealth stuff (eventually very nice stealth stuff), and declaring smite gives you concealment against the target for round/level. Yep, your smite is even better. Eventually your smite declaration also takes away 60ft. of any darkvision they have.
No Channel Energy, but did anybody really use that much? Anyway, grant darkvision if somebody in the party doesn't have it.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Sorcerers are likewise amazing, and really only need small tweaks in order to make them more customizable and unique.

One flexible spell per day would be amazing (or even just one casting of a flexible spell, like the inverse of a Wizard's bonded item). Rebirth Psychic is amazing for that!


QuidEst wrote:
pixierose wrote:

Ohhh the Gloomchymist sounds super fun! Is it exclusive to Wayangs or?

Also I would love to hear more about the Dusk Knight. :o

Thank you all for sharing, and thank you to all of the amazing people who worked on this book.

None of the archetypes are restricted.

Dusk Knight
** spoiler omitted **

Oh thank you so much for the info. That seems really cool actually.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
BardWannabe wrote:
stuff about wayangs
...It was way more fun to write about that then to cram a few more lines in about a deity that isn't even Wayang specific or depicted as a wayang.

Thanks, Alex, for commenting. I can understand that perspective. I guess my wayang animal speaker bard is about as ratty as a wayang is going to get for the foreseeable future. Maybe it will still be possible to petition John Compten to make an updated Mounted Tradition boon allowing wayangs access to riding rats as mounts. It just seems strange to me that their goddess gives them nothing.

The alternate racial traits you came up with are fine additions. It's hard to understand why the wayangs are not native outsiders, given their origin story, so making it an option was good. I do like the mechanics of the Shadow Speaker alternate racial trait

spoiler:
gives 3/day +2 incite bonus on most d20 rolls
as it is very flexible, and making it additionally accessible by a feat was nice. I can see people picking it up for PFS play, where flexibility is a virtue.

I can't imagine too many people taking the other wayang feat

spoiler:
to extend the Light and Dark ability for a minute
unless they are negative-channelers/necromancers themselves and plan on long battles.

I really like the Shadow mystery.

I also like the alternate racial traits at the beginning that can be picked up by several core races; that is a very refreshing design idea.


Alexander Augunas wrote:

And as long as we're talking about things we liked. I'm REALLY grateful that Owen let me roll with Flexible Shadow Jump and Extra Shadow Jump. I feel like those two feats alone make shadowdancers incredibly more fun to play because they loosen the ropes on one of their most iconic abilities.

Granted, it also means that shadowdancers care a LOT more about their feats now. Perhaps somewhere down the line the Player Companion line will have a place where we could let the shadowdancer pick those feats up as rogue talents or something.

Scaling Feats?

Alexander Augunas wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:

And as long as we're talking about things we liked. I'm REALLY grateful that Owen let me roll with Flexible Shadow Jump and Extra Shadow Jump. I feel like those two feats alone make shadowdancers incredibly more fun to play because they loosen the ropes on one of their most iconic abilities.

Granted, it also means that shadowdancers care a LOT more about their feats now. Perhaps somewhere down the line the Player Companion line will have a place where we could let the shadowdancer pick those feats up as rogue talents or something.

Or at some point, there could just be an unchained shadowdancer^^

Right now shadowdancer and sorcerer are my two favorite candidates for more support and becoming unchained.
Well sorcerers need more normal support too.

Neither needs to be unchained, in my opinion. Shadowdancers just need small nuggets of love here and there; the sheer insanity that is their shadow companion is vastly downplayed by most power games. In earnest, that companion is probably the most powerful "minion" in the game. Sorcerers are likewise amazing, and really only need small tweaks in order to make them more customizable and unique.

More PrC becoming Base classes? Want!

And, no offence but, Sorcerer kinda lost their thunder to Oracle, Witch, Arcanist and one or two others...

Contributor

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Nutcase Entertainment wrote:

More PrC becoming Base classes? Want!

And, no offence but, Sorcerer kinda lost their thunder to Oracle, Witch, Arcanist and one or two others...

Don't want, and disagree. Oracles and witches don't have the same spell list as sorcerers. Its really only the arcanist that is beefing on the sorcerer's turf.

For the record, I'm a HUGE sorcerer fan. My first Pathfinder character was a human sorcerer named Jayven Verdithas. (Arcane bloodline, of course.) Stick with me; I'm sure I'll figure out something to ease your concerns eventually....

Slightly Off-Topic Thoughts About Prestige Classes:
As for the "PrCs as base classes" thing, check the Magaambyan initiate in Arcane Anthology for how I feel prestige classes and archetypes should interface. I think archetypes should make logical strides toward certain Prestige Classes that adopt its theme or outright support them, but I am strongly against archetypes and base classes that flat-out replace a prestige class. If anything, I feel that the game needs MORE prestige classes because there isn't much mechanically that characters have to "work for;" archetypes just let them assume to be part of all these cool organizations at Level 1 with little to no relevant training.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Nutcase Entertainment wrote:

More PrC becoming Base classes? Want!

And, no offence but, Sorcerer kinda lost their thunder to Oracle, Witch, Arcanist and one or two others...

Don't want, and disagree. Oracles and witches don't have the same spell list as sorcerers. Its really only the arcanist that is beefing on the sorcerer's turf.

For the record, I'm a HUGE sorcerer fan. My first Pathfinder character was a human sorcerer named Jayven Verdithas. (Arcane bloodline, of course.) Stick with me; I'm sure I'll figure out something to ease your concerns eventually....

Oracles mechanics work kinda like Sorcerer, with Divine magic instead of Arcane, but lack the amount of trap and redundent options the Sorcerer have. Witches have some of the same trapping the Sorcerer do, but benefit from being prepared caster. Bloodragers doing some of the Bloodline things way better than the Sorcerer is another.

Edit:

Slightly Off-Topic Thoughts About Prestige Classes:
the Magus is pretty much a PrC + its requirements turned into a Base Class, so it should be possible to do so with other as well.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Neither needs to be unchained, in my opinion. Shadowdancers just need small nuggets of love here and there; the sheer insanity that is their shadow companion is vastly downplayed by most power games. In earnest, that companion is probably the most powerful "minion" in the game. Sorcerers are likewise amazing, and really only need small tweaks in order to make them more customizable and unique.

While I agree Sorcerers are great. How often do you really see Shadowdancers? Better yet, has anyone ever seen someone stay in the PrC past 4th level? At all?

Don't get me wrong, I love Shadowdancer to bits, but it's not exactly good. >_>


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I did that once with a shadowdancer and would love to do it again.
Only in all campaigns i play at the moment everyone feels the shadow is horribly OP and the GM objects that PrC. Even though im not an abusive player with things like that, i agree.

Contributor

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If you would like to discuss the viability of shadowdancers or the worth of sorcerers in another thread, I would be happy to do so. But this isn't really the place for it.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
If you would like to discuss the viability of shadowdancers or the worth of sorcerers in another thread, I would be happy to do so. But this isn't really the place for it.

At first, I read you as discussing the VISIBILITY of shadowdancers, and that seemed like an entirely relevant discussion for this thread


Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Barachiel Shina wrote:

I believe people are reeeeeally going to like the "Flexible Shadow Jumper" feat.

HINT: There's a certain "dimensional" chain of feats connected to it...

I aim to please, and Owen is pretty fantastic in every sense of the word.

Agunas, you magnificent bastard!


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QuidEst wrote:
nighttree wrote:

So how does the Eidolon look ?

Not too shabby!

** spoiler omitted **

My Caligni Owb caller thanks you ;)


We have Louis and Owen to thank for the Gloom Chymist? Nice. Seriously considering creating one. Absolutely love it. A character who throw cold shadows?! Thank you very much!


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Xethik wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:

And as long as we're talking about things we liked. I'm REALLY grateful that Owen let me roll with Flexible Shadow Jump and Extra Shadow Jump. I feel like those two feats alone make shadowdancers incredibly more fun to play because they loosen the ropes on one of their most iconic abilities.

Granted, it also means that shadowdancers care a LOT more about their feats now. Perhaps somewhere down the line the Player Companion line will have a place where we could let the shadowdancer pick those feats up as rogue talents or something.

Or heck, make a miracle feat that counts as Dodge, Mobility, and/or Combat Reflexes for prestige class requirements to make entry a bit more bearable on your feat progression. I really like the class, but find what it offers isn't worth taking two+ feats I normally wouldn't.

Though that usually ends up just leaving an awkward feeling of trying to patch without errata.

I would rather make rogue talents for the shadowdancer that makes Dodge, Mobility, and Combat Reflex more important to the shadowdancer experience. Removing prerequisites like that is a tricky notion because the fact is that while a feat like Flexible Shadow Jump is a power boost to the shadowdancer, its done so at an opportunity cost (a feat). Your proposed feat would have the opposite effect; it would be an unapologetic example of power creep because it specifically circumvents the game's power progression.

A feat that functions as Dodge is doable (see Artful Dodge). A feat that functions as Mobility is doable. A feat that functions as both is power creep.

Totally fair. I think making Mobility/Combat Reflexes more important would do it, too. A mix of the two would be having a feat that gives a mini-Shadow Jaunt effect that counts as Mobility and would give you more shadow jumping distance. Could be kind of cool.

I think what is tricky with Combat Reflexes for Shadowdancers is that it doesn't mechanically fit in with my concept of Shadowdancer. It makes sense that a character that was constantly moving, shifting, and weaving would be able to make multiple attacks of opportunity. And doing so is great for an Elven Branched Spear based Rogue/Shadowdancer. But a two-weapon fighting Shadowdancer? Not only are AoOs much more rare, each AoO just don't mean as much. The Rogue talent(s) would really need to address both AoO frequency and AoO meaningfulness. It's very doable, but with that sort of investment I wouldn't imagine Combat Reflexes would become more welcome in most Shadowdancers.

Now, I haven't seen the Shadow Walker Rogue archetype, but I could see that filling this sort of niche, too. An alternate way of accessing a lot of the themes and abilities of a Shadowdancer without certain investments. It sounds like the Shadow Walker is a bit more of a Stygian Slayer for Rogue than Shadowdancer-lite, but it sounds like you can combine the archetype with the new Rogue talents and end up with a very nice Shadowdancer minus the Shadow companion, which I think a lot of players will be happy with. If anything, the Shadow companion holds the Shadowdancer back a little bit in its overall power budget and is a headache for most GMs, but man is that ability cool. Would be nice to see it as a standalone feat chain one day that focuses using it as a scouting/flanking tool more than a Strength drainer.

EDIT: Oops, didn't see the new thread request for the topic. My bad. But I can see how the natural progression into Shadowdancer works with the new Rogue features, too.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
If you would like to discuss the viability of shadowdancers or the worth of sorcerers in another thread, I would be happy to do so. But this isn't really the place for it.

Point taken. I was thinking it was teddery to the balance of a book buffing their upper levels would make sense in.


I know it's in this thread but I seemed to have lost it. Can anyone point me in the direction of the rules section for this book again?


You mean this rules index post?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

F5... F5... F5...

Gah! Ship, damn you! Ship!

There's a holiday coming up. If subscription doesn't ship today I could be damned to F5 purgatory for four more days!

<We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussions amongst people NOT suffering neurotic breakdowns>


DM Sothal wrote:
You mean this rules index post?

Yes! That's it! Thank you Sothal.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Would anyone be willing to give some info on the darkborn/shadowborn alternate racial traits, or the alternate racial traits for half-elves?

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