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Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies, and Munchkins

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Envall wrote:

Failed will saves usually lead to many interesting roleplaying opportunities, which just don't happen if you make the will save. Atleast will saves tend to keep you alive in some form or another, unlike the other 2 saves.


Don't be silly - just think of all the ROLEPLAYING you can do if you get mummy rot! DROP that Fort save!

My ENTIRE PARTY once managed to fail their Will saves against a monster spamming Charm Person at us. Four of the five characters had good Will saves, too - we just could not roll above a 4 to save our lives.

The language barrier could be a problem. So could being obviously nonhuman.

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Klorox wrote:

Any written wizard where? PF wizard have roughly the same flavor as the AD&D Magic User, and that's what they were built for. (beside the odious nerfing that took place between 1st and 3.75 ed)

"Odious nerfing"?

Kender are proof that Natural Selection doesn't exist in D&D worlds.

(And I see Snowblind already linked to a good explanation why.)

Cut this guy's head off, and leave town in the middle of the night. Problem solved.

If need be, take the head with you to prevent raising.

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The language you spend your life speaking trains you in what sounds you can accurately pronounce.

Common-speakers have a VERY hard time casting certain incantations. And that's not a bug, it's a feature.

Firebug wrote:
I once had a GM say that paladins can't use UMD without falling because "you are lying to the item by pretending to be another class". Didn't exactly break the game, but made me kinda want to do so.

What, was he worried you'd hurt the items' feelings or something?


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PK the Dragon wrote:

Magical Child's problem isn't that it's too anime, it's that it's not anime enough.

I mean, I think it would work for some of the easier magical girls (I could probably make Precure and Utena work with this), but for any with memorable finishing moves, or summoned weapons like Nanoha, it falls short.

There's also the Chosen One Paladin archetype, which is a young warrior for Love and Justice with a magical pet.

Or you could play a regular class, and just say the character's young: Magus, Sorcerer, Oracle, Bard, Kineticist, or other class would have the right sorts of powers without too many changes.

Or you could homebrew something.

OtakuChan wrote:
They're all either Chaotic Good, Chaotic Neutral or Neutral. While I'm Lawful Neutral. I'm tired of healing them constantly, putting out their grease fires and them stealing my items even though I have high perception but not able to stop them. (I get healing is part of being a cleric, that's why I signed up for the job)

Why are you not letting them die, again?

As for broken character, level 5 is when Wizards get Fly.

Sah wrote:

I think they put him back in like, the next issue.

I wish. Back in the Silver Age, plotlines like this tended to be one issue and done, now they stick around for a year and a half to fill up the trade paperbacks.

They had to literally erase Iron Man's brain to get the stench of Civil War off of him, what are they going to have to do to Cap to fix this mess?

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Nohwear wrote:
Superman is, usually, such a goody goody that he is more of a parody of himself.

Spoken like someone who's never read a Silver Age Superman story - about half of them were Superman mercilessly trolling his friends, enemies, and random hapless would-be alien invaders.

Nitro~Nina wrote:
Well this is a fascinating topic, though I agree with some of the others here that there's no truly "wrong" way to play a Paladin, so long as you stay Lawful Good.

I can think of at least one....

I just go with "Ablative Plot Armor". Trying to treat D&D hitpoints as a real thing either results in madness or PCs who LITERALLY can take enough physical punishment to wreck a Sherman tank.

Can the one guy who liked your GMing reach your new place? It might be worth inviting them to your next game.

Don't forget to look up.

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Vigo Thornrose wrote:
mardaddy wrote:
What do you do if the paladin player chooses to have his PC "fall?"

Isn't it ultimately the GM who determines when a paladin falls? As such, I see this as something of a moot point.

If for some reason the paladin lost his innocence (and couldn't atone for some unfathomable reason) and thus was no longer able to destroy the artifact, then naturally, I would need to change the conditions required to destroy the artifact.

That's kind of a key part of the whole story.

Yeah, that sounds like railroading to me.

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shadowkras wrote:
We would have to raise Gygax from the grave to know the truth though.

I suspect the answer might turn out to be something like "Specifically to screw over (someone)'s Magic-User character." Same reason Ropers are immune to electricity.

Because they're artillery.

PF wizards are D&D wizards, and D&D wizards were Chainmail wizards, and Chainmail wizards were supposed to be extremely fragile, but able to wipe out an enemy battalion with one shot.

Flames of Chaos wrote:
Thanks so much for the guide - new to playing spellcasters in general, but enjoyed the idea of this one so decided to jump in head-first. Only issue I'm having so far is the stat-block you suggest for point-buy; are the stats you list pre-floating bonus, or post-bonus? In either case, why is WIS a dump stat? Don't you need it for stuff down the line?

For an Oracle, Wisdom is mainly for Perception checks and Will saves (their one strong save), so if you need a dump stat, it's probably one of the safer ones.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

If you're going to tell me you get your greatsword's enhancement bonus on your grapple attempt, I'm going to have to get you to explain in some detail how exactly your 120cm sharp piece of metal too heavy to be wielded in one hand helps you grapple somebody. I can't imagine a situation in which it helps, but I'd like to hear you try to sell me on it.

"I grab the ricasso in one hand, the handle in the other, and apply the bit inbetween to my opponent's neck."

Balkoth wrote:
Yes, people are arguing that a prone Dragon/Balor/Angel/etc can just start flying while crumpled on the ground instead of having to get up first.

Seems PERFECTLY LOGICAL. They can fly while prone, it just means they stay prone in midair until they stand up. RAW, folks!

Brother Fen wrote:

It's a mistake to expect any one tactic to work over and over. Always vary your tactics or at the very least, learn to adapt to the situation.

I always find it amusing when the hyper-specializaed character realizes their one attack won't land in this encounter, at which point they begin blaming everything but themselves for the vulnerability of their build.

There's a relatively small number of archetypes that can swap feats in mid-battle, and a lot of characters won't have them. Blame the system that punishes not specializing, then punishes specialists when their one good tactic isn't applicable.

Triune wrote:
I was not aware specialising into killing took away your skill points per level.

CRB, page 55.

(And if you're any fighty-type that isn't a Magus, INT probably isn't a high-priority stat.)

The easiest approach is probably to make the die-roll as irrelevant as possible - max out strength, use a two handed weapon, get buffs, and power-attack at all times. Who cares if you rolled a 3 if you're adding 12 to it?

Raltus wrote:
Balkoth you are proving it is all about the math and a problem to be solved, I mean there is nothing wrong with that at times but really is that what this game is turning out to be a game of who can do their math better?

It's been that way since at least D&D 2nd edition, sorry to say. And 3rd edition (and by extension, Pathfinder) was even more complicated. And you can talk all you want about how your character is BRAVE and MOTIVATED and RIGHTEOUS, but when the dice hit the table, it really is all about who got the most plusses and didn't roll a 1. Because PF has approximately zero options for roleplaying to affect gameplay aside from alignment violations.

If you want a game that's more about THE ROLEPLAYING, might I suggest Fate?

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
While shield brace does allow for spear and shield fighting I don’t think it should require you to be a fighter and spend two feats. As Firewarrior44 says this should be a basic tactic that any martial character can do, not a super specialized style that only a few can perform.

It takes TWO feats to use the single most common combination of weapon and shield in all of human history? O_o

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Does you GM allow things from D&D? If so, play a Kender.

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Kahel Stormbender wrote:
Someone's group killed all the AD&D gods... including the good aligned ones?! That's just nuts. What sort of GM would even have that as a possibility in the campaign?! Generally speaking, when you have a god personally show up in an RPG campaign it's as a Plot Device.

It's just the high-level version of the same mentality that leads players to kill the entire population of the Village of Hommlet. "It's got stats, so it's here for us to kill it, right?"

Torbyne wrote:
There are very few ways to lose a limb in Pathfinder and the normal process is to use regeneration to recover them if lost.

Regenerate IS a level 7 spell, which means it's not all that common.

(I find it hilarious that it's significantly easier to bring someone back from the dead than to regrow a missing hand.)

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Get mad, hit things.

My group is bad at doing AoEs, so my Oracle of Battle may need to branch out a bit into crowd control. Currently level 9, close to level 10.

What are some good spells to hit each of the saves/mess up large groups of enemies? I'm already got Wall of Fire from the Mystery.

Greater Forbid Action (Will)
Flame Strike (Reflex)
Hold Person (Will)
Bestow Curse (Will)
Sound Burst (Fortitude)

Any gems I'm missing?

Daw wrote:
First Edition Chivalry and Sorcery Power Word Mage. You got 3 points college credit.

Oh, if we're going to be discussing OTHER games, Champions is probably the most complex I've played.

The all-time winner for complexity is probably Phoenix Command, or maybe Eoris.

What's the Human culture?

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TxSam88 wrote:

I disagree as well, a good role player will be spreading out this skill purchases and his feat purchases into non optimised places, as well as buying "flavorful" magic items and choosing "flavorful" classes to begin with.

whereas a ROLLplayer will make only optimal choices.

Because someone who regularly find themselves in life-or-death struggles should deliberately make choices that reduce their chances of getting out unscathed?

That's BAD ROLEPLAYING, unless the adventurer in question has a death wish.

Jhaeman wrote:

I don't want to proselytize, so I'll leave it alone at this post. If you think of role-playing as something to do to pass the time between combats, then that's all a role-playing game will be for you. There's certainly nothing wrong with that, and Pathfinder is an incredibly crunchy system that absolutely 100% supports that kind of play.

Role-playing games can be so much more than that, however. Think of every novel ever written; how many of them are *not* about the main characters killing monsters? Anything that a novel can do, so can a role-playing game. You could have a game centered around a murder mystery, torrid romance, slapstick comedy, inter-family drama, exploration of an alien (but friendly) culture, medical emergencies, or about a million other things. Pathfinder is certainly not the best system for some of those things, but it can still be used to tell those stories. When we broaden our horizons, RPGs can be about more than just combat, just like prime-time TV can be about more than police procedurals--even though neither usually are :) The hard part is finding the players and the GM to tell stories outside the conventional ones.

Yes, but Pathfinder is mostly about combat, magic, killing things and taking their stuff. That's about 2/3rds of the rulebook.

And there's a lot of things that work in novels that often won't work well in an RPG. Like a mystery where the PCs relentlessly miss ALL THE CLUES.

Vidmaster7 wrote:
Eh once you get higher level class options will be more important then stats anyways.

At which point even well-made fighters start sliding into irrelevance...

SmiloDan wrote:

I still don't understand what commoners are supposed to roleplay?

Adventures in babysitting? Going shopping? A cattle drive? Dealing with a natural disaster? Mustering against a bunch of Vikings? Planting a bunch of magic beans? Crafting? Going to the pub? Dying in a haunted house? Get bossed around by the local magistrate? Build a barn? Pay some taxes? Get food poisoning at a wedding? Flee a plague? Survive a famine? Get scared by some monsters? Poach the king's deer? Get stolen loot from some men in tights? Carry stuff? Watch someone else cast a spell? Get cursed by hags? Become a zombie?

The same things any other group of level 1 scrubs deal with, except they're going to be even less good at it.

Some people like the challenge of trying to survive danger as the underdog, and this is about as far as you can take that idea in PF.

I hope it's not too obvious, but I'd recommend a Mnemonic Vestment and scrolls for more situational spells you might find useful at some point.

Edit to add - I missed this is a Mythic game, and the Heirophant mythic path has 'Inspired Spell' that pretty much gives you any spell you need on demand. (You did take that one, right? It's awesome.)

And yes, Boots of the Cat are good & cheap, and useful at least until you reach the Everyone is Flying levels.

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The Sideromancer wrote:
Jhaeman wrote:

SmiloDan wrote: "What is a party of commoners supposed to do?"

Answers: Role-play!

It is a role-playing game ;)

Think of it like the beginning of The Wheel of Time series. Rand al'Thor is a sheepherder. Perrin is an apprentice blacksmith. Nynaeve is a budding herbalist. Heroes are made, not born.

Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them.

And some get eaten by rats in the first random encounter.

This GM does indeed sound bad.

jcdman1 wrote:
The annoying thing is these are the only guys I know that play pathfinder. If I walk from the table I just forfeit playing D&D. But that's why I thought about DM'ing my own campaign. I'm just afraid that it won't be great because I wanna do a skyrim campaign. One of my friends is a munchkin and my current DM is a power gamer.

This may very well be your best bet - the world can always use more good GMs. As people have said, look around for other groups, and don't be afraid to not invite the current GM to your new game if they're as bad a player as a GM. (Don't rub their face in it, just don't tell them about it.)

QuidEst wrote:
Don't focus on using Charisma for AC, initiative, saves, attacks, and damage all at once, and you should be fine. To avoid scaring GMs, don't load up on the Extra Revelation feat.

How do you get Charisma to attacks and damage? Asking for a friend. :D

My first thought when I heard this was "Have fun with The Problem of Evil", because I am a cynic.

OTOH, nothing in your initial post implies that Deus is inherently Good, so that's not the problem it is in real-world monotheisms.

Given that, all three of your initial ideas sound like potentially good ways to handle it.

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RocMeAsmodeus wrote:
Of the many criticisms I've heard of libertarians, the one I've found to be most valid is that they can sometimes be overly dogmatic.

How about that some libertarians are downright delusional where it comes to the behavior of corporations? (Expecting them NOT to cheat customers and exploit workers without the threat of legal punishment?)

Also, a worrisome number of Libertarian ideas on food/water/medicine/auto/whatever safety seem to boil down to 'once it's killed someone, their families can sue'.

I like the painterly style.

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One game I was in, I had a witch with a Silvanshee familiar, and I did spend some time between sessions trying to plan out question-trees to ask.

Amazing how much info you can get from 6 yes/no questions if you phrase them right.

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Goth Guru wrote:

The alt right is now using "snowflake" excessively.

The proper retort is "Whatever Fascist!"

I prefer "You know what you call a lot of snowflakes moving in the same direction? An AVALANCHE."

Killer_GM wrote:
Orville Redenbacher wrote:
What ive gathered so far is that Players and GMs should communicate about what they want out of their games and meet in the middle. Unless of course the player shows up with a drow noble, in which case, you promptly tell them to GTFO.
I just grease said character in brutal fashion. Said player then leaves on his own.

There's not much as Fun(tm) as a GM who can't just tell players what they will or won't allow, and instead let them waste time and paper before murdering their character.

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Arbane the Terrible wrote:
Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Or the implication that refugees from Syria practically waltz in to the U.S. It was already taking 18-24 months of rigorous thorough vetting. But the Dems practically let Trump have that talking point without a fight.

Can't win hearts and minds to your candidates if you don't fight hard to control, or at least shape, the narrative.

Oh yes. The total unwillingness of Democrats (or our worthless 'news' media) to call rightwingers on their 'alternative facts' is one of our biggest problems. (And not just a political problem, a BASIC SANITY problem at this point.)
There's no point in doing so. The base that supports Trump proved time and time again that they won't listen to "facts" coming from sources they despise. Which is everyone save Trump, BriteBart, and FOXX.

Yes, but they're not the majority. They're not even the majority of Republican voters, I'd guess.

137ben wrote:
Also, obligatory links to Trekin's what am I supposed to do thread, and its continuations, The SUE Files: Part II and Part III.

Ahhh, good ol' Sephiroth Cullen, Most Obnoxious GMPC Ever, and his equally insufferable creator, 'Marty'. One of my favorite stories.

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Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Or the implication that refugees from Syria practically waltz in to the U.S. It was already taking 18-24 months of rigorous thorough vetting. But the Dems practically let Trump have that talking point without a fight.

Can't win hearts and minds to your candidates if you don't fight hard to control, or at least shape, the narrative.

Oh yes. The total unwillingness of Democrats (or our worthless 'news' media) to call rightwingers on their 'alternative facts' is one of our biggest problems. (And not just a political problem, a BASIC SANITY problem at this point.)

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Not exactly terrible players, but it's a weird coincidence. I've been in two different groups where we played at the house of two different guys with the same first name, who played characters that could be described as 'kamikaze idiots'. One's character was high int, one was high wis, but both of them could be counted on to end up in a situation that would DARE the GM to bring the hammer down on them for their stupid decisions at least once every few sessions and escape through pure freakish luck.
I recently played with a new group who used to have a player who played a kamikaze idiot... with the same first name. Weird.

At least their antics are often amusing to watch, though I dread the day they manage to spark a TPK.

CBDunkerson wrote:
Samy wrote:
In my bubble, both of those are exceeded in number by people who want jobs.

So they voted for the party that when it was last in power produced the worst job losses since the Great Depression and against the party that had just provided the longest streak of continuous job growth ever recorded.

How can anyone not see the flaw in this plan?

"If there's one thing I've learned from history, it's that people don't learn from history."

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