There are clearly some things the Warlock could do that the kinesist can't, but the kinesist can do a lot of things the warlock can't, and the kinesist has better flavor and theme.
I agree with your first point. I was disagreeing with the comment "The kinesist blows it out of the water on all fronts.' There are plenty of area's where the warlock isn't "blown out of the water" and instead is better.
To the second, flavor and theme are in the eye of the beholder.
For all the things the warlock could do, it was boring to play. The kinesist is a lot more interesting, and there are a lot of good options.
Again, this varies greatly from person to person. I had great fun with a warlock and so far haven't had an equally fun experience with any of the kinesists I've tried. However, since people can have fun and not be bored with a commoner, I don't think it's a useful metric to use.
So I'm not saying the kinesist is crap, I'm saying the warlock is better than advertised. The lack of burn in the warlock means that it has a 1000 times the versatility of the kinesist as it's powers ARE truly at-will. Feel free to disagree but that's the way it seems to me.
I would agree if the kineticist's free stuff wasn't better than a warlock's. Warlock was a fun but weak class.
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I would agree if the kineticist's free stuff wasn't better than a warlock's. Warlock was a fun but weak class.
You must be looking at different lists than I am.
kineticist: Invisibility 1 rd or level in rounds for burn.
Warlock: Invisibility on self for 24 hours. they have an improved invisibility version too.
Yep, the kineticist it TOTALLY better... as long as it's opposite day.
Full damage energy touch attacks even vs objects for warlocks.
Alter Self on self for 24 hours: gets you natural attacks, scent, lowlight, darkvision, climb, swim and disuise all in one. A kineticist gets close using multiple abilities at once...
Make a weapon conductive? Warlocks can do it as a talent. hearing crickets from the other side.
The warlock has plenty of free stuff that is vastly superior to the kineticist semi-free list that often requires burn so it's not really free. Warlock had a greater range of utility as they weren't required to be tied to elemental abilities and weren't forced to take a drawback to use them (burn).
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Can we PLEASE stop using the argument that being able to blast all day is this huge balancing factor? NO ONE HAS COMBAT ALL DAY. The system is not built around that assumption. Your combat options only have to last through the combats in a given day. Doing piddly damage is not made up for by the argument that "Hey guys, if we have to have 16 combats today, I'll be marginally more useful by comparison!"
This is especially relevant if we compare it to the other classes which are solely Paizo's design, i.e. everything forward from the APG. About every one of those classes has a focus on limited use abilities, meaning that parties aren't expected to have something else than the 15 minute adventuring day anymore. Hence new classes should be all designed around that paradigm, not how they perform better after everybody else has run out of their limited resources.
That is not a commentary on the effectiveness of the Kineticist, since I haven't really looked at its numbers yet, but rather that the "class X operates better when there are a lot of encounters that day" argument has been killed by Paizo's conscious class design years ago.
I think that a change in Metakinesis might be the best bet to increase DPR safely without inviting too much in the way of making Blade builds too good. As it stands, Metakinesis increases the Burn on a blast at these rates. Empower: 1 -> Maximize: 2 -> Quicken: 3 -> Double-Up: 4
What if Metakinesis gave a free Empower to a Kineticist's blast upon receiving the ability (level 5) whenever you use Gather Power? This would free up one point of Burn per blast.
Conversely, Maximize can be removed as a potential damage source by removing it from Metakinesis entirely as it is actually worse than Empower for damage purposes and the Burn cost is too high.
By level 10 or 11, Quicken should cost one extra Burn as a standard Kineticist without Kinetic Blade will still only have one attack while everyone else should be running three attacks minimum in the most important fights (Blessing of Fervor/Haste) with any Full BAB class getting another set of iteratives at 11th. This is when Supercharge kicks in and gives the Kineticist a viable option to get multiple attacks per round at the cost of a single burn. So, you could feasibly fire off Empowered Standard + Quicken with -3 to Infusions in each at level 11 with 1 free Burn left from Supercharged Gather Power to play with as your move, standard and swift for the round.
Under this a Kineticist could full round the Empowered Standard + Quicken, but if the Kineticist moved and still did the Standard + Quicken, then they are taking 1 Burn from the Quicken and do not get the free Empower from Gather Power.
Double-Up can be gated behind levels as well and should cost 2 or 3 Burn at 14th to 15th level, imo.
This is just a rough idea, but it seems to fix a lot of the Burn problems and increases damage to be more in line with a blaster/fighter.
How does Kineticist work as a dip?
Not so well unless you dip for about 3+ levels. 1st level dip only gives you a blast equitable to a Sorcerer's bloodline blast, and a cantrip-level power. 2nd level lets you gain more utility, but no increase in damage really. It's not til 3rd level when you get Elemental Overflow, and a doubling of your damage, that it starts to be interesting offensively.
6 levels in Elemental Annihilator is a pretty good deal, though 6 levels isn't really a "dip".
...there's nothing saying telekinetic invisibility only lasts for one round or costs burn in any way?
"this works as invisibility except that the aetheric bending is easier to notice."
Nope, no duration limitation (other than what it is for the spell), and no Burn. :)
Hmmm time to look at this damage. I like comparing max damage for some reason. Let's look at zero burn damage.
To hit: 15bab + 6 elemental over flow + 9dex (18base + 6enh + 4size) = 30
Con: 19base + 5lvl + 6enh + 6size = 36
Kinetic blade plus disintegrating infusion = no net burn cost
20d6+46 fort save for 1/4 DC 32 per hit (3 hits for +30/25/20)
For one point of burn you can make it a touch force attack for 20d6+13. Add 2 more points of burn to make it deal 83 damage per hit 3 times and for 3 burn you can quicken ride the blast to pounce on the foe, basically one shotting any bbeg without a really good fort save. Heaven forbid someone also cast haste on you or any other buffs. For the lowest damage version of the kinesicist that seems like a lot too me.
Ah I made a mistake disintegrating infusion only works on force blast meaning we are looking at 10d6+23 per hit (but no fort save and a chance to trip them) we could also use whip instead for AOOs
I would agree if the kineticist's free stuff wasn't better than a warlock's. Warlock was a fun but weak class.You must be looking at different lists than I am.
kineticist: Invisibility 1 rd or level in rounds for burn.
Warlock: Invisibility on self for 24 hours. they have an improved invisibility version too.Yep, the kineticist it TOTALLY better... as long as it's opposite day.
Full damage energy touch attacks even vs objects for warlocks.
Alter Self on self for 24 hours: gets you natural attacks, scent, lowlight, darkvision, climb, swim and disuise all in one. A kineticist gets close using multiple abilities at once...
Make a weapon conductive? Warlocks can do it as a talent. hearing crickets from the other side.
The warlock has plenty of free stuff that is vastly superior to the kineticist semi-free list that often requires burn so it's not really free. Warlock had a greater range of utility as they weren't required to be tied to elemental abilities and weren't forced to take a drawback to use them (burn).
...there's nothing saying telekinetic invisibility only lasts for one round or costs burn in any way?
Also, warlocks didn't get Humanoid Shape, that was a dragonfire adept invocation.
...also, wasn't Hideous Blow stuck with melee-only, considered generally terrible, and when Dragon Magic came out everyone swapped over to Eldritch Glaive (being basically Kinetic Whip) as fast as they could?
My bad, I'm not sure what I was looking at. Looks like invisibility would be normal duration of 1 min/level.
Alter self: They can't change size. Humanoid is fine.
Shrouding Transformation: Least, 2nd; Alter Self on self for 24 hours, but can not be a different size category than your normal size.
Eldritch Glaive is the equivalent of kinetic whip. Hideous Blow WAS terrible. You're bound to find a dud in every list.
oh hey by max you can empower for free so 15d6+23 damage per hit.
so +30/25/20 15d6+23 (trip)
Edit forgot elemental overflow damage so
+30/25/20 15d6+35 (trip)
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Shrouding Transformation is not a thing at all according to the official list of Invocations on the Wizard's website - http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/invocationsMy bad, I'm not sure what I was looking at. Looks like invisibility would be normal duration of 1 min/level.
Alter self: They can't change size. Humanoid is fine.
Shrouding Transformation: Least, 2nd; Alter Self on self for 24 hours, but can not be a different size category than your normal size.Eldritch Glaive is the equivalent of kinetic whip. Hideous Blow WAS terrible. You're bound to find a dud in every list.
Where's Shrouding Transformation from? I thought I knew every warlock invocation, but I've never heard of that one. I thought you were talking about the dragonfire adept's Humanoid Shape invocation, but that's a Lesser.
I also thought you were referring to Hideous Blow as the warlock version of making a weapon conductive.
I think it was from a dragon article, but I couldn't tell you which issue.
Shrouding Transformation: I can't find out where it's hiding. It shows up on multiple online lists but not on the official list. I don't see the website articles or dragon listed as sources so maybe it was there.
*shrug* Humanoid Shape is easy enough to snag with a feat, Infernal Adept. All the dragonfire adept invocations where accessible through it.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070613
Another con of the Warlock: they only got to pick a total of nine abilities over twenty levels, limiting their versatility. Kineticist gets something every single level.
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Another con of the Warlock: they only got to pick a total of nine abilities over twenty levels, limiting their versatility. Kineticist gets something every single level.
12. They also get detect magic as the spell at will, DR, take 10 with Use Magic Device, temp fast heal 5, create magic items without the feats and 2 energy resistances up to 10.
Not to say 1 every level isn't good: It is. It's a bit more restricted though as it's 10 infusions and 10 utilities and not 20 universal picks. For the warlock you aren't restricted by type or theme (element) so the warlock has more overall versatility. The kineticist has more options in their set theme but the warlock is ahead at making their own theme.
Another con of the Warlock: they only got to pick a total of nine abilities over twenty levels, limiting their versatility. Kineticist gets something every single level.12. They also get detect magic as the spell at will, DR, take 10 with Use Magic Device, temp fast heal 5, create magic items without the feats and 2 energy resistances up to 10.
Not to say 1 every level isn't good: It is. It's a bit more restricted though as it's 10 infusions and 10 utilities and not 20 universal picks. For the warlock you aren't restricted by type or theme (element) so the warlock has more overall versatility. The kineticist has more options in their set theme but the warlock is ahead at making their own theme.
Plus another 7 from extra wild talent feat.
10 infusions, 10 utilities, and 7 lower level fill talents.Warlock was a fun class. It's a great class in 5e. Compared to a kineticist? It still has the fun, its just not stronger by any metric.
Note: You still needed the feats to craft magical items. What you didn't need was the required spells like everyone else did back in 3.5.
Well for versatility there is also fire gods blessing which is nice for fire types... free healing lol
At low levels maybe. It's better if you stack it with Fast Healer.
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Draining Infusion, Unravelling Infusion (dispelling Resist Energy/Protection From Energy and other spells), Searing Flame and Burning Infusion (which will eat away 1d6 points of fire resistance and can be stacked [I think this is maximized if the blast is affected with the Maximize metakinesis]).
Unfortunately these don't cover creatures that have Fire Immunity without necessarily having the fire subtype. Primarily, I am thinking of Devils and a small selection of Demons (Succubus and Balor). In those cases, a Pyrokineticist lacks any real options besides hoping there is an alternative flammable target.
Interesting note, the pyrokineticist is more proficient against targets with the actual FIRE SUBTYPE then against enemies that are "merely" fire resistant/immune.
None of those mentioned deal directly with fire immunity.
You are correct. Fortunately, that's not pertinent to your request. Why is that?
Here:
He will have a half-dozen ways to work around fire immunity and stay useful in combat.Half dozen eh? Name three.
Note the bolded.
So yes, the options I listed DON'T INTERACT with fire immunity. They are, in fact, 3 ways of WORKING AROUND fire resistance/immunity. Other ways were given in earlier posts, such as being able to blind enemies even though they are fire immune or being able to spam DISPEL MAGIC ALL. DAY. LONG. which merely requires bypassing SR and doesn't actually require dealing damage and finally, the ability to make smoke clouds.
Paizo's reluctance to give people who want to focus on a single element (your fire sorcerers/wizards, winter witches, etc.) is a problem in my opinion. I have some ideas concerning some homemade feats that would the do the job for those who absolutely had to go through elemental resistances and immunities but it's kinda beside the point. All the same, in my post, I also mentioned the exact thing you decided to bring up.
Unfortunately these don't cover creatures that have Fire Immunity without necessarily having the fire subtype. Primarily, I am thinking of Devils and a small selection of Demons (Succubus and Balor). In those cases, a Pyrokineticist lacks any real options besides hoping there is an alternative flammable target.
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Honestly... I think people are underestimating the utility Pyrokineticists have. They actually have quite a bit considering they can dispel 3 buffs in a single turn, at will, at 11th level with the flurry of blasts infusions and unraveling infusion. They get some aerial mobility, LOS blocking with smoke clouds and blinding effects. Seriously underestimating how many options exist for them...
Draining Infusion ignores immunities for quite a few creatures. Not enough to be worth that save for 1/4th damage though...
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Anyway. Actual Personal Opinon on the Kineticist:
Aether kineticists kinda get short end of the stick. They are not good with the combat maneuvers they get access to. They have no options that can let them become good in that area. Their available options for composite blasts kinda suck and getting your composite blasts to do equivalent damage to the blasts of the other kineticists in incredibly expensive (though I do eventually like the idea of creating disintegration spheres). And they lack any real AOE options while most of the other kineticists get quite a few (which is a REAL SHAME because Psychics can pick up Telekinetic Storm! As a Telekineticist, I WANT TO TELEKINETIC STORM!!!). That being said, I do like their utility powers.
OTHER ACTUAL PERSONAL OPINIONS ON THE KINETICIST:
The elemental races shouldn't SUCK at being kineticists!!! =.=
Like seriously, please just REWRITE all 5 races (Suli is pretty good but it really shouldn't be the best at ALL of the elements like it is now) and give them some options that will make them good while a kineticist appropriate to their elemental affinty!
Also I'm not sure the kineticists damage is really that huge an issue. Then again, I kinda wish damage values in this game were slightly lowered a bit but that's a whole 'nother conversation with a much more complicated topic.
Quite right, xevious573. Apologies.
Also, merfolk make great hydrokineticists (cause, duh) and hobgoblins make great pyrokineticists (cause, flames of war).
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Kuru are cannibalistic people in the Shackles. Their stat is line is +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int.
All I'm saying is sometimes you are a cannibalistic Hemokineticist! The most METAL of Blood Kineticists! \m/>_<\m/
I actually think all non-aether kineticist get the short end of the stick because they can't throw cottages around.
In my experience being able to grapple mooks at range is very useful. Being able to do it for free is even better!
Aether also benefits from never being out of their element. Being able to move any object is a big advantage for puzzles and creative solutions.
Sure their damage looks lower than others but I think they make up for it.
Has there been any FAQ or ruling on whether the pyro gnome increases their pyrokineticist stuff? And other alt racials that do the same sort of thing. At least in pyro gnome's case it works with (to my knowledge) every other fire-themed ability for base classes, even alchemist bombs. If it did, pyro gnomes would be a pretty good race choice.
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I actually think all non-aether kineticist get the short end of the stick because they can't throw cottages around.
In my experience being able to grapple mooks at range is very useful. Being able to do it for free is even better!
Aether also benefits from never being out of their element. Being able to move any object is a big advantage for puzzles and creative solutions.
Sure their damage looks lower than others but I think they make up for it.
Every single element can grapple with the Grapple Infusion. Fire and Aether can use the Grapple Infusion with the Wall Infusion but Air, Water, and Earth can both use the Cloud/Deadly Earth Infusion which basically gives those 3 elements a black tentacles spell available to them eventually (13th level for earth and 15 for air/water) [Secondary note, black tentacles is a fairly dangerous spell already but the kineticist version, while burn expensive, can be very, very deadly as it does half blast damage each turn, lasts for a number rounds equal to constitution mod which can get pretty high thanks to elemental overflow, and will have a higher CMB & CMD thanks to elemental overflow].
So in terms of grappling Air, Water, and Earth all have better AOE grapple with no real change in CMB numbers (2 + Kineticist Level + Con (which will increase as you take burn)).
Both Earth and Aether have access to the Bowling infusion for all tripping needs and all elements except fire have access to the Pushing infusion for all Bull Rush needs. Aether is not better at either of these maneuvers which I be more okay with if Aether got to have a bit of the AOE these elements have access to.
Aether does have access to telekinetic maneuvers (this does make Aether superior in single target manuevers) but there is somethings still disappointing in that. Specifically the grappling. Aether is indeed the only element that can Pin an enemy. I'm just kinda sad that I can't do the Damage grapple action. Telekinetic Squeezing or Telekinetic Crushing with my Aether grapple. That would be kinda cool. I can't even use the suffocate wild talent while I have a creature grappled with my telekinetic maneuvers. [I'm also kinda sad that taking the telekinetic maneuvers wild talent doesn't boost the bowling or pushing infusions in some way, such as increasing CMB or increasing the push distance or what have you]
Truth be told, my complaints about Aether are because I WANT Aether to be awesome. I actually just started up an android telekineticist in Emerald Spire. I want her to be awesome (and she is but I just feel like there are awesome telekinetic attacks such as the Telekinetic Crush or the Telekinetic Storm that won't be available to her).
So I believe it already works, since the gnome says "treated as one level higher when casting spells with the fire descriptor"
and a blast says "A kinetic blast that deals energy damage of any type (including force) has the corresponding descriptor."
And since blasts are SLAs that means that things that effect spells effect them too.
So assuming that's all correct then it already works. If there's something incorrect there then please let me know.
Only the elemental blasts(fire, electricity, and cold damage) have to worry about SR.
Also I'm not sure the kineticists damage is really that huge an issue. Then again, I kinda wish damage values in this game were slightly lowered a bit but that's a whole 'nother conversation with a much more complicated topic.
Here, here. As someone who GM's a lot of adventure paths, I am always amazed at how different the actual PC damage output versus the hitpoint totals of the opposition are. But, as you said, it's the topic for another thread.
When exactly does that become zero cost?
At maximum, you have 3 points of Burn reduction, starting at around 16th.
2 points from Supercharge.
1 point from Composite Specialization.
Err, wait, make that 4 if you wanna go all the way to 19th and make Empower free forever.
Still, at 19th, you're taking 1 Burn from that (+1 Composite, +2 Maximize, -2 Supercharge) so no, it never becomes free.
At 10th level, you're taking a ridiculous 4 Burn per shot of that...which is likely ONCE per day, not 3. You've maxed out Elemental Overflow, which means you've taken 3 Burn already. So you have about 5-6 Burn you can take that day (unless you expect to have higher than a 22 Con at 10th? You'd need at least a 26 to make that twice per day, much less 3 times. And a reduction of your max HP by 110).
At 11th that's still 3 Burn, so TWICE per day, MAYBE three if you really pumped Con (which since you had 20 Dex at 10th, seems unlikely) not 6-7 times.
I get the feeling you were applying Infusion Specialization to the Burn reduction, which doesn't apply here.
I was applying gather energy to metakinesis and infusions specialization to composite blast. Specialization cancels the composite cost. Super charge cancels the maximized. The end result is empower costing one burn at level 11. Yes, it isn't fully free until past where most games end. But as specialization scales you can add other infusions in without effecting cost.
Infusion Specialization only applies to Infusions, which Composite Blasts are not. So Infusion Spec doesn't come into play here.
Though it now occurs to me that would have been a good way to make most people happy.
Have Infusion Specialization be an actual specialization. As-in, you have to choose between:
-Infusion Specialization (reduces the cost of Infusions)
-Metakinetic Specialization (Reduces the cost of Metakinesis)
Those who want the big blasts get the big blasts, those who want the mostly at-will utility and control options get that too.
So at lvl 8 u cant empower + composite for free with a move action?
+1 Empower
+2 Composite
-1 Gather
-2 Infusion spec
I mean that would be 12 hit 71 dmg average. That isnt rly impressive in any way, but he cant even do that? Wow this class is dead then