Kineticist damage?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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The Morphling wrote:

Just popping in to remind everyone that you can't have a conductive bow, since conductive is not one of the enchantments that convey its special power on its ammunition.

You'd need a bundle of conductive arrows, and good luck paying for all of those!

Source? Conductive is a ranged weapon enhancement and nothing about the ability needs it to conduct to the ammo. It just says "When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type..."


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Aratok you are correct that Infusion Specialization not applying to metakinesis.

Everything else was wrong. Rynjin already posted the Empower FAQ.

Gather Power works for metakinesis. Metakinesis is a modification of blasts. Gather power works on blast wild talents after all the modifications (infusions + metakinesis) to it are done.


Thanks. I noticed when it was already said earlier, dude. I even specifically responded to it.

Hopefully they'll errata the text to match developer intent. :p


The text doesn't need errata'd.

Metakinesis increases the burn cost of the blast. Gather Power reduces a blast's burn cost. This is plain in the text.


It is not. The text does not indicate that it increases the cost of the blast at all. It is its own separate effect.

That's fine mechanically, and makes the Kineticist slightly less awful than it is from a strict read, but it's not what the book says.


It took me a while to type it up as I was double checking pdf.

The text doesn't need errata because you're simply missing the part where it says it alters a kinetic blast. Since that text is there, it sufficiently states that the blast is modified with extra burn cost for more effects.


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For funsies, a level 12 Human Aristocrat has BAB +9. Let's say he started 16 in Dex and Str before racial with +2 in Dex for accuracy. +4 Phys Might Belt and +3 to Dex. So 20 Strength and 25 Dexterity at 20 point buy. WBL for 12th level is 108,000 GP. +5 Adaptive Bow and Belt of Physical Might +4 is ~92,000 GP. He has seven feats for PBS, Precise, Clustered, Rapid, Multishot, Weapon Focus and one left over.

From this, the Aristocrat will do 1d8+10 per arrow with a +5 bow. Two iteratives with Rapid and Multishot for four arrows and three attack rolls. Assuming he hits with all of the arrows (not impossible at +17/+17/+12), he does 4d8+40 damage. He can Clustered Shots for the same DR punching power as the Kineticist, but the average damage of his full attack at level 12 is only 58 damage.

This is compared to the kineticist at level 12 who can drop 72.5 average damage in the same round at +22 to hit? (Kineticist in question started 16 in Con and Dex for fair comparison; spent 58,000 GP on Belt of Physical Might and Lesser Diadem of Air).

Let's use CR+2 for a challenging fight, so CR 14. 29 AC and 200 HP is Paizo guidelines for that CR.

Aristocrat hits on a 12, 12 and 17 respectively. Kineticist hits on a 7.

Aristocrat averages a quarter of the monster's health if he hits with all of his attacks. (4% chance of that happening). Kineticist averages almost 1/2 of the monster's health if he hits with his one attack. (70% chance of hitting).

How do people think the Aristocrat even comes close? Lower hit chance, much lower damage, less effective at WBL expenditures. It's a massive difference between the two.

(This is also ignoring the fact that the Water / Air Kineticist is permanently flying, has an AC of 37 because he can buy Celestial Armor/Ring of Prot +2/AoNA +2/Jingasa/Dusty Rose Prism with his leftover cash and can suffocate people at will. Aristocrat has +7 Dex, so he needs Padded Armor to buff his AC and can spend ~16,000 GP to buff his AC. At most, a +4 Padded Armor for AC of 22 and that is the rest of his gold.)


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Threads like this would only result in a nerf to archery. It's the outlier here.


Okay, I haven't actually played a kineticist yet, but a couple of points I'd like to consider:

Aristocrat vs Wizard in Melee Combat - Typically Aristocrat would win, at least at lower levels. NPC classes are better than some PC classes in some aspects at low levels. I know this is completely beside the point, but I want to defend those poor NPCs.

I'd definitely agree that it's not fair to compare Kineticist to Sorcerer, at least yet. There are several years worth of content and options to support Sorcerers that Kineticists just don't have. You can get a much fairer comparison if you used just the Core Rulebook to build your sorcerer. No archetypes, or caster level increasing feats, or niche super-spells. Give it time, and Kineticist will get enough stuff and options that it'll be a good competitor.

From what I can see though, you can basically chuck out Empowered`blasts that scale with level (more or less) all day once you hit level 7, if you don't mind a 2 round casting time. Surprise rounds are good for kineticists...

The other thing is that Kineticists look like they can get by without stepping on each other's toes much (or possibly at all), and with Interweave Composite Blast, you can get some awesome blasts coming out with no burn, all day long if you have two kineticists in the party, from level 1. Interweave Composite Blast is, in my untried opinion, easily the best teamwork feat in the game.

Rynjin wrote:

Since you can only use those options if you're using a Blizzard Composite Blast, stack 2 more Burn on there, for a total of 4. SO he can do this a whopping...once per day if he has 24 Con.

Just mentioning that with 24 Con you can take up to 10 burn per day, so he can do it twice. Still not that fabulous, but slightly better.

Also, I should type faster.

Dark Archive

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The longer I look at the kineticist, the more I simultaneously like it, and become annoyed with the way it always seems to fall short.

I think my biggest complaint has to be the way they utterly nerfed the Extra Talent feat, since that would have been really helpful around level six or seven, when you finally get access to abilities that aren't crap. I'm also annoyed with the way you always feel short of good infusion choices, until you're utterly overwhelmed with good choices.

Frankly, I feel like the Aether talent list is filled with trap choices, and only has a limited number of useful abilities, most of which don't come online until 6th level, and all come online very quickly when they finally come online. So you go from being option starved(I'm looking at you Draining Infusion, and you too Skilled Kineticist) to option saturated (Extreme Range, Foe Throw, Invisibility, Touchsight). And it only gets worse as you level. At level 10 you get access to Force Barrier, Reactive Touchsight, and Wall. Which is 3 good abilities, with only two levels to take them in, before you get access to another pile of good powers, like Ride the Blast, Disintegrate, or Suffocate. Another three good abilities with only two levels to get them all, before you finally get access to Spell Deflection at 14th. Only after you hit 14th level do you go back to having less must have options, and have the ability to take some of the marginal choices that you skipped early on.

All in all, it's a supremely annoying progression from starved, to swamped, back to starved again. Assuming your game even runs long enough to get to the point where you run out of must have choices.


Chiming in just to check, but are these debates taking into account the Kineticist archetypes? If we're comparing an optimized damage-dealing build to a non-optimized damage dealing build then things might be a little skewed. As far as I can see, Elemental Annihilator is what a Kineticist would choose if they just wanted to do damage, and only damage.

I think it's also an old issue of comparing most DPR calculations against archery, which for me tends to prove less that other options are necessarily weak, and more that archery is just a bit more powerful than it should be. I think Kineticist will compare most to the gunslinger in the long run, depending on what options come out and how a character is built; it can either be total weaksauce or take over a game. An unoptimized gunslinger just kinda hangs out, while an optimized one (especially in a party that isn't really min-maxing much) can get nasty, and it's less about the raw damage and more about how the damage just always happens.

At the end of the day, though, I think the class is handy to have for players who are less interested in damage races and more interested in playing a class that's actually an elemental blaster without X/day limitations on everything like a caster.


Very true, I'm mostly considering what would happen if we were pushing supernova DPR with supernova DPR. I mean, bard and inquisitor just make rad archers in general. The classes are probably a couple of the more solid options in the game, and archery happens to work really well with them, so their utility will probably always have at least the potential to edge out a Kineticist, no matter how well built. Archery's just that good, and the classes that are good with archery are also just that good.

I suppose more than anything I'd just be interested to see the math with Elemental Annihilator and leave the utility stuff aside for that experiment, since I haven't seen anyone make those comparisons. It seems like a decent matchup to me, though I agree the sacrifice is too much in the end.

Kineticists just needed a way to interact more favorably with iteratives, or for there to be some kind of feat that basically allows for Rapid Shot with blasts (or something similar to a Vital Strike). That, to me, is the problem, not so much with the class itself. It just doesn't have that feat option--or any feat or ability option--to let it put such a ridiculous downrange like what an archer gets. I do think, though, that this is easily something that can be fixed with future splat books and the wild talent stuff that comes with that.

Dark Archive

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Well, if Flurry of Blasts didn't suck so much, we'd have a way to get decent iteratives. But it does, and here we are.


Puna'chong wrote:

Very true, I'm mostly considering what would happen if we were pushing supernova DPR with supernova DPR. I mean, bard and inquisitor just make rad archers in general. The classes are probably a couple of the more solid options in the game, and archery happens to work really well with them, so their utility will probably always have at least the potential to edge out a Kineticist, no matter how well built. Archery's just that good, and the classes that are good with archery are also just that good.

I suppose more than anything I'd just be interested to see the math with Elemental Annihilator and leave the utility stuff aside for that experiment, since I haven't seen anyone make those comparisons. It seems like a decent matchup to me, though I agree the sacrifice is too much in the end.

Kineticists just needed a way to interact more favorably with iteratives, or for there to be some kind of feat that basically allows for Rapid Shot with blasts (or something similar to a Vital Strike). That, to me, is the problem, not so much with the class itself. It just doesn't have that feat option--or any feat or ability option--to let it put such a ridiculous downrange like what an archer gets. I do think, though, that this is easily something that can be fixed with future splat books and the wild talent stuff that comes with that.

It's completely stupid that they don't. The Kineticc Blade proves that the damage output isn't a problem, because I refuse to believe Mark took a look at that and didn't realize how much damage ouput that added up to (especially sinc epeopel pointed that out to him DURING THE PLAYTESTS and he acknowledged it, but didn't change it).

I can run the number son the EA tomorrow though, though my other main gripe with it is it doesn't work with energy blasts.


Rynjin wrote:

You can take 7 after maxing Elemental Overflow, which is one of the assumptions I wrote in.

Oops, sorry. My mistake.

Still, you could do it twice per day and just have the second one do that much damage. Or if you had the time, full-round it and use only 1 burn. I imagine there'll be some feat/item/archetype that allows faster power gathering once per day or something to make that a little more practical.

Just going to mention the Interweaved Composite Blast again. Looks like it'd work well on, say, a two-weapon fighter. Monk's probably ideal. They take one level in kineticist, and voila! Now you get the full benefit of iterative attacks without needing to invest in it (other than the amazing feat), the monk gets to target touch AC, and you can pump out substance infusions without needing to worry about burn.


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...Literally all Interweave Composite Blast lets you do is have TWO people use their Standard action to do something that any 7th level Kineticist can do alone.

Using it with someone who only dipped Kineticist is even worse, since you take the average level.

So a 12th level Kineticist and a Monk 11/Kineticist 1 use the Blast of a 6th level Kineticist.

Yippee skippy.

There's no full attacking involved. It relies on Readied actions, which eat your Standard for the round.

Edit: Small mistake, it only takes the Standard of one guy, but still hardly a stellar option for that guy, and not super duper for the other one either. Especially since then you BOTH take Burn for any Infusions used.

Edit 2: And then they use the Dex mod of one, and Con mod of the other (so you need to pick whether you want to actually hit, or actually deal damage)...this Feat is atrocious.


Aha, not quite right. It lets you do something a 7th level kineticist can do alone... for 2 burn. Also, assuming you plan it out, you can set it up so that one of you takes only Substance Infusion Specialisation and the other takes only Form Infusion specialisation. This way, you can easily reduce burn costs to absolutely nothing, even while using the best infusions you can on the best blasts you can. It's more than doubling the amount of burn you can deal with.

I have absolutely no problem with using my standard actions to make someone else much better. Especially if that standard action can result in what amounts to unlimited empowered 9th level spells.

Okay, fine, the damage isn't great, but that's not necessarily the point. The point is that you're letting the target go for touch AC, which for a monk, can be pretty sweet. I don't see any reason why you can't use Stunning Fist with some of these abilities, or Knockout Punch, or some other ability that you can activate on a melee attack. Plus, you're getting your Substance Infusion on a bunch of attacks, potentially burn-free. Unravelling infusion, for example is pretty nice for this, or possibly Flash Infusion. No matter how good something's save is, the more it's exposed to something, the more likely it is to fail. That is why that feat is amazing.

Dark Archive

Are you still using the old book, because Infusion specialization is all one thing now. So, no more form and substance infusion splits on your burn reductions.


Oops, so I am. Makes it even better, then, if you don't need to specialise. You can pull it off with any kineticist at all, if they have this feat. Using Rynjin's example from before, you can pull out the same effect with no burn at all, and maximise it on top of that. Now you've got an at will effect that's quite substantially better.


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You can't get Stunning Fist because it isn't an unarmed strike, you can't get any of that other stuff because it's not a melee attack, and Infusion Specialization isn't split that way any more.

And with Gather Power, Composite Specs are already free. And you don't have Infusion Spec with a dip anyway.

In this scenario the Monk is as useful as a Cohort but taking up a valuable party slot. You wasted 11 levels of Monk, since you're not uding them for anything. They may as well have been Commoner leveks since all that matters is your Kineticist level and your Dex or Con mod.

The Feat is trash any way you slice it. It provides nothing of value to either party that takes it.

Your Kineticist is better off with another party member doing his thing and using his own Dex and Con scores (both likely better) and Infusions and the Monk is better off actually using those 11 levels he has in Monk to do something other than be a poor man's Kineticist.

If they're both Kineticists, then they should both be Blasting.

I have no clue what value you see in this Feat for a PC. If a Kineticist drops two Feats on this and Leadership, sure, but any other PC that takes it is just gimping themselves.

If you're thinking of going the other way to try and GET Stunning Fist and what have you, why then is a Kineticist wasting his action to make a Monk a ghetto Elemental Ascetic instead of the Monk just taking 12 freaking levels in Elemental Ascetic? This Feat just does not make sense for anyone to take.

Edit: Especially (and here's the fun bit) since if you go this route, the actual Kineticist 12 can't Gather Power to reduce the cost, meaning either: No Substance Infusions of any real value can be used (the Monk would have to provide those, so the save DC would be bad, and he'd be eating Burn) or the Monk himself has to provide Kinetic Fist (meaning he takes a point of Burn for doing so, or Gathers Power...making the idea of Flurrying to trigger a bunch of saves even at low DC impossible).


Fine. It's one burn on the monk to activate either Kinetic Blade or Kinetic Fist, which I should have specified earlier. There's your Form Infusion. You're not getting the touch AC with Kinetic fist, but that's what you live with, I guess, but then the Monk can just dip a single level and can do stuff without the kineticist. In exchange for that though, he can take some burn to get a bunch of extra damage. Possibly maximised, depending on what Kineticist does. I'd call a one level dip and one feat a pretty good trade off for being able to spend 1 burn to get potentially a flat +12 damage for a round.

Maybe I'm just horrendously misinterpreting what this feat can do. Still, I think you're not looking at its full potential. I do think this feat is amazing, and with it, two kineticists become much, much stronger than a two single ones.

As I see it:
1 - You skip two burn because you're not doing it yourself
2 - You get doubled up on Gather Power
3 - You each apply your Infusion Specialisations, essentially double the amount of burn you're reducing it by
4 - You're spending less burn anyway because you don't need to use two infusions

Level 6 with two kineticists? You've got access to composite blasts early, you've got double the number of infusions and you can spend no burn to produce effects that are worth 6 burn; a single kineticist instead spends 3.

At level 11, you have more than double the number of composite blasts, double the infusions, and spend no burn to produce effects that are worth 12 burn; a single kineticist spends 7.

EDIT: Oops, mess up for me. You don't get the doubled Gather Power. Not quite as good, but still. It makes the lv 6 example 2 burn better, and the lv 11 one 3 better.

EDIT after Rynjins Edit: Monk readies action and provides Form Infusion, Kineticist performs the blast and provides the substance infusion. Since the Kineticist is using the blast, she can gather power and use her metakinesis.
This doesn't need anything else; since Fist needs no save, the Monk's stats don't matter. The Substance infusion, since it's provided by the kineticist, uses the Kineticist's DCs.

Dark Archive

Personally I had reserves when the book came out. Not seeing an item we all discussed as being necessary(basically am enhancement bonus to attack and damge of wild blast) made me believe my 13 level arther kineticst I was playing in Mummy's Mask would lose even more damage(doing on average 75 DPR with the playtest options) but saturday I finally was capable of playing her and see what was. The result? 150 DPR average, never missing a single attack and upping the damage when using telekinesis due to Mobile Blast free save or take damage each round. As for burn, I could constantly maximise Disintegration blast by spending a move actionl for 16d6+16+22(con)+20(overflow).
As for the dilemma with the archer bard my answer is creature with reach.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Aratrok wrote:

It is not. The text does not indicate that it increases the cost of the blast at all. It is its own separate effect.

That's fine mechanically, and makes the Kineticist slightly less awful than it is from a strict read, but it's not what the book says.

I'm with Aratrok on this one. It wasn't clear to me, and I wouldn't have allowed it at my tables without seeing Mark's post earlier.


Ravingdork wrote:
Aratrok wrote:

It is not. The text does not indicate that it increases the cost of the blast at all. It is its own separate effect.

That's fine mechanically, and makes the Kineticist slightly less awful than it is from a strict read, but it's not what the book says.

I'm with Aratrok on this one. It wasn't clear to me, and I wouldn't have allowed it at my tables without seeing Mark's post earlier.

I'm with you. I wasn't sure until Mark replied to one of my posts on the Overwhelming Soul and the Kineticist's 20th level ability. For me it wasn't clear that the costs for Omnikinesis was a part of the other's abilities cost and not their own cost.


Wolin wrote:

Fine. It's one burn on the monk to activate either Kinetic Blade or Kinetic Fist, which I should have specified earlier. There's your Form Infusion. You're not getting the touch AC with Kinetic fist, but that's what you live with, I guess, but then the Monk can just dip a single level and can do stuff without the kineticist. In exchange for that though, he can take some burn to get a bunch of extra damage. Possibly maximised, depending on what Kineticist does. I'd call a one level dip and one feat a pretty good trade off for being able to spend 1 burn to get potentially a flat +12 damage for a round.

Maybe I'm just horrendously misinterpreting what this feat can do. Still, I think you're not looking at its full potential. I do think this feat is amazing, and with it, two kineticists become much, much stronger than a two single ones.

As I see it:
1 - You skip two burn because you're not doing it yourself
2 - You get doubled up on Gather Power
3 - You each apply your Infusion Specialisations, essentially double the amount of burn you're reducing it by
4 - You're spending less burn anyway because you don't need to use two infusions

Level 6 with two kineticists? You've got access to composite blasts early, you've got double the number of infusions and you can spend no burn to produce effects that are worth 6 burn; a single kineticist instead spends 3.

At level 11, you have more than double the number of composite blasts, double the infusions, and spend no burn to produce effects that are worth 12 burn; a single kineticist spends 7.

...No. You don't have "more than double the number of Composite Blasts". You have HALF THE NUMBER OF COMPOSITE BLASTS. One. One from the feat, rather than one from each Kineticist.

The Feat has a limited shelf life, and there aren't a ton of things you can do with it to make it worthwhile. You still haven't thought up any SPECIFICS for what you think is good, which leads me to believe you haven't really looked into it very much. You just looked at the Feat alone and how much Burn it could potentially save you in a perfect world.

Wolin wrote:


EDIT after Rynjins Edit: Monk readies action and provides Form Infusion, Kineticist performs the blast and provides the substance infusion. Since the Kineticist is using the blast, she can gather power and use her metakinesis.
This doesn't need anything else; since Fist needs no save, the Monk's stats don't matter. The Substance infusion, since it's provided by the kineticist, uses the Kineticist's DCs.

If the Monk readies the action, then it's the Kineticist who delivers it. So the Kineticist has now waded into melee to perform a single Unarmed Strike that adds roughly 1/4 of his Kinetic Blast damage (without Con to-hit), and the Substance Infusion.

Why in the nine hells would the Kineticist not just use his Blast?


For me I always come back to the comparison with the 3.5 Warlock that is the inspiration for the mechanics of this class. What would you rather play a 3.5 Warlock or this class?

Many of the early powers are of limited use and when you get the major ones you can not use them at will until fairly high level. Where the Warlock once you had access to a power you could use it at will. Using burn as a way to push things I think is a great idea. Using burn as the limited gateway for many powers or combos effectively places a limit on the class that is less than the pool powers as most of them have a way to recharge them. I would have preferred seeing burn be limited to metamagic effects and pushing powers above and beyond normal. That said it seems that Paizo is battling to make sure that power creep does not come into the game and in doing so they seem to be limiting everything that is coming out in major ways.


I'm trying to figure out how op a telekinetic is with telekinetic haul. Which increases your blast weight to 100 pounds per level or 1000 pounds per level with 1 burn.

No chart for damage sadly.

Edit: based on the telekinesis spell we are looking at 800d6 damage for 1 burn at level 20.


Rhedyn wrote:

I'm trying to figure out how op a telekinetic is with telekinetic haul. Which increases your blast weight to 100 pounds per level or 1000 pounds per level with 1 burn.

No chart for damage sadly.

Edit: based on the telekinesis spell we are looking at 800d6 damage for 1 burn at level 20.

"you can throw an object weighing up to 100 pounds per kineticist level you possess, but this doesn’t increase the damage."


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Where is the Diadem of Air from?


CupcakeNautilus wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:

I'm trying to figure out how op a telekinetic is with telekinetic haul. Which increases your blast weight to 100 pounds per level or 1000 pounds per level with 1 burn.

No chart for damage sadly.

Edit: based on the telekinesis spell we are looking at 800d6 damage for 1 burn at level 20.

"you can throw an object weighing up to 100 pounds per kineticist level you possess, but this doesn’t increase the damage."

Can you drop something with TK Haul?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Kineticist's Diadem from Occult Adventures pg. 259.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Totally missed that item while looking through it. Thank you Kindly.


Casual Viking wrote:


Besides, I can get 12d6+22 at level 6 from hardcovers alone.

Details, please.


CupcakeNautilus wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:

I'm trying to figure out how op a telekinetic is with telekinetic haul. Which increases your blast weight to 100 pounds per level or 1000 pounds per level with 1 burn.

No chart for damage sadly.

Edit: based on the telekinesis spell we are looking at 800d6 damage for 1 burn at level 20.

"you can throw an object weighing up to 100 pounds per kineticist level you possess, but this doesn’t increase the damage."

of the blast, but you don't have to do blast damage you can just do object thrown damage.


MeanMutton wrote:
Casual Viking wrote:


Besides, I can get 12d6+22 at level 6 from hardcovers alone.

Details, please.

If I'd had to wager, Gravity Bow BAB 6 rapid shot and manyshot, assuming all hits. Basically a standard ranger after 1 round of buffs. But on the same hand, we all know that archery is broken right at level 6, since it rougly deals the same damage at level 10.

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Removed posts and their responses. Please don't make personal attacks against each other.

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