Kineticist damage?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Am I missing something, or does the Kineticist do absolutely pathetic damage?

I was noodling around with a level 6 pyrokineticist, just to see how bad the "I wish I was playing a Sorcerer instead" would get, and it seems bad.

With 2 points of burn spent to fill up elemental overflow, and a +6 Con modifier, The Fire's Fury talent, the Kineticist does at best 3d6+7 damage once per round, or takes some burn to do the same damage, reflex save half, to 2 or 3 targets. Maybe a tiny bit more with Burning Infusion.

For a level 6 character, doing their specialty thing, that is ridiculous. Am I missing something, or is the kineticist supposed to be a nerf thrower?


Kineticists seem pretty alright to me. They've got a lot of fun options and the potential for even more fun options.

Also, if you just want raw damage, you don't want to do an energy blast. They're meant to pretty much pierce through everything that isn't resistance to that specific element and almost always hit for damage. Consistency is the design, whereas physical attacks hit about twice as hard but are harder to land.


Empowered physical blast with deadly aim in the mix: 4d6+25. 1 burn, nothing if you gather.


Ah, Empowered, forgot about that. So, about 26 points of damage in a turn. The kind of damage you'd expect from a Sorcerer who's barely even trying, but all day long.

Contributor

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The base kineticist is designed around bringing both all-day damage and consistent, caster-like utility. Are they as good as martials? No. Do they have as much utility as casters? Again, no. But in both cases, they shouldn't. Balance-wise, the kineticist is a work of art.

Now, if you want to be Captain DR, the elemental annihilator archetype is for you. If you want more utility, consider the kinetic chirgureon.

Scarab Sages

Ryzoken wrote:
Empowered physical blast with deadly aim in the mix: 4d6+25. 1 burn, nothing if you gather.

Even just an empowered fire energy blast does something like 1.5 * (3 * 3.5 + 2 + 4) = 25 damage, and that's with hit chance of "don't roll a 1". People who don't like the kineticist tend to forget that last part especially. Alternately, you can use Fan of Flames to hit several targets at once, which does all of that damage to all targets (half on a save). Meanwhile, an empowered physical blast does 32 dmg at 6th level. If you're willing to stick to a non-empowered blast, you can instead add a debuff (Entangle, Trip). At 8th level, you can do that with an empowered blast (Infusion Specialization 2).


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I assume your theoretical sorcerer is using crossblooded with dragon and orc. In which case I'd say the kineticist isn't weak as much as crossblooded is broken.


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I wish people would stop making new threads about their misconceptions about Kineticists being pure blasters and instead read the existing threads.


Do you really want every new class to be as good as a sorcerer/wizard?


Bloodrealm wrote:
I wish people would stop making new threads about their misconceptions about Kineticists being pure blasters and instead read the existing threads.

The thing is, that's the best thing they're really suited for. If you're not Water or Aether, there's not much utility, and not many good control options that don't cost you a ton of Burn until higher levels.


Catharsis wrote:
Meanwhile, an empowered physical blast does 32 dmg at 6th level.

4d6+25= average 39 damage, 41 with point blank shot. This assumes 6 Con mod, deadly aim, and 3 points of burn accepted at the start of the day.

3d6+3 (Blast) +6 Con +4 Elemental Overflow +4 Deadly Aim +1d6+8 Empower

Attack roll is 4(Bab)+4 to 5(Dex) +2 Elemental Overflow -2 Deadly Aim, or roughly +8 or +9 at level 6, one higher with point blank shot.

Aether, Air, and Water all give good utility, Earth provides interesting defensive options, Fire is... well it's fire... and it does... things...


Damage per round X 10 rounds per minute X 60 minutes per hour X 8 hour work day because they don't run out of their basic blast. All you have to do is deal with the fact that opponents will be shooting back, which isn't as hard as it might seem since foes will notice the higher damage per round output of primary casters (not to mention their outright save-or-suck effects) and will shoot them first while ignoring the slow and steady kineticist.


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They'll also notice the higher DPR of an Aristocrat with a shortbow and kill them first.

Yay?

"You're not a threat, therefore nobody will see you as a threat" is not an upside.


AntiDjinn wrote:
Damage per round X 10 rounds per minute X 60 minutes per hour X 8 hour work day because they don't run out of their basic blast. All you have to do is deal with the fact that opponents will be shooting back, which isn't as hard as it might seem since foes will notice the higher damage per round output of primary casters (not to mention their outright save-or-suck effects) and will shoot them first while ignoring the slow and steady kineticist.

Yup! Generally, a Kineticist can reliably continue doing what it does. Even if they run out of room to accept Burn, they can still contribute. They're not winning the DPR Olympics any time soon, but that's not really their point.


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...Then what is their point?

When they can't accept any more Burn, they have no more battlefield control power until VERY high levels, because most good Infusions cost like 3-4 Burn, plus another 4 Burn to make it an AoE.

Their utility is limited, and mostly personal in nature. Unless, of course, they accept Burn.

Their damage output, while not pitiful, is far lower than one would expect from a class whose main shctick is being a blaster.

So, pray tell, what is their "point"? What do they excel at?

Doing things other classes can do, but worse, even if they can do it all day is not a good lass niche to have. They have very few truly unique abilities and combos, and the ones they DO have cost Burn, and copious amounts of it.

If it weren't for that f@~@ing mechanic the class would be excellent (and don't talk to me about Overwhelming Soul. "Oh it doesn't take Burn. But of course it can't do anything that requires Burn!" Meaning...the whole class. At least until, again, very high levels).

As-is it's mediocre. Which is a damn shame, to have a great class hindered by the world's s$~@tiest mechanic.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Obviously, level 6 is not the kineticist's best level but even with that comparison it stacks up fine.

The kineticist does less than an archer but has more utility.

Especially at level 6, I would not even say a sorcerer does much more damage considering the limits per day (ignoring crossblooded with orc which is banned because it is a rigged bloodline). Red dragon sorcerer is focusing on damage and has a 4d6 + 4 or 18 damage scorching ray which is only limited in use. If the sorcerer uses more of those, he has less utility spells while the kineticist keeps his all day. I am not saying a sorcerer is worse than a kineticist (a good sorcerer doesn't really go for damage), but the point is that they are comparable.

And the expert/aristocrat doing more damage is a math error by wheover came up with that. It is patently false, though obviously being better than an aristocrat doesn't mean anything anyway.


I don't feel like doing this "build s#~@ for me so I don't have to do the math myself" thing again tonight, thanks.

I will say 4d6+24 damage is at least roughly equivalent (call it 25% less even, doesn't really matter since it's A NON-COMBAT NPC CLASS, it shouldn't even be getting that close), and that's with a very minimalist build (14 Str, Deadly Aim, Rapid and Manyshot at 8th level, with no magic bow).

I already know for damn sure an archer Inquisitor can outgun the Kineticist, and that's a better comparison point anyway, since nobody can say the Inquisitor is lacking in utility options.


Temeryn wrote:


Especially at level 6, I would not even say a sorcerer does much more damage considering the limits per day (ignoring crossblooded with orc which is banned because it is a rigged bloodline). Red dragon sorcerer is focusing on damage and has a 4d6 + 4 or 18 damage scorching ray which is only limited in use. If the sorcerer uses more of those, he has less utility spells while the kineticist keeps his all day. I am not saying a sorcerer is worse than a kineticist (a good sorcerer doesn't really go for damage), but the point is that they are comparable.

No, I said "barely trying", not "sandbagging". Unlike the Kineticist, the Sorcerer has access to CL boosts. Barely trying means 8d6, maybe 8d6+8, and optimized more like 12d6+24 (and that's without crossblooded).


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have never done a full damage comparison of the inquisitor but my vague glancing at the numbers makes me think that the inquisitor can do better in one fight and can definitely do better with proper prep, but I think a lot of times people underestimate the attack roles and its effect on DPR.

This is especially important for kinetcisits who have the option of touch attacks which are free hits or even one single hit which will be more likely to hit than a regular 3/4 BAB class because it is at the highest attack bonus. Against many bad enemies with low AC the kineticist can use aoe (at least with fire for free) so a low attack role character with a lot of damage wouldn't necessarily do better in that scenario either.


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Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you are reaching 12d6+24 you are certainly using stuff that is banned at my table and/or setting specific paperback stuff which really should not count in these discussions.

I think it is pointless for this to devolve into a "well I don't allow that" because frankly I play with rules stricter than PFS, but paperback books are not the core line and are Golarion specific so they should not be considered.

Just in general it is more fair to compare CL6 to CL6. When the sorcerer reaches 7, scorching ray gets better and more stuff does too and when the kinetcisit gets to 7, he gets a hybrid and another element as well as a 2d6 bump when empowering. Sorcerer has been out longer and just has more stuff to play with in feats. Its not really a fair comparison


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Or we can compare him to a Archer Bard.

An Archer Bard has
-Decent DPR, even when not performing
-Has awesome utility through spells and skills. He can make life easier just by being there.
-Can buff his team mates
-Can protect his team mates with some spells

Like the Kineticist, the strongest utility effects he can do only a limited times per day. Like the kineticist his damage option can be done unlimited times per day, unless in a situation where arrows are excluded.

So why can the Bard do more damage when he has so much more utility too? This was a problem in the playtest that Mark specifically responded too and recognized. He knew this was an issue, so I find it hard to believe this book went to print with the class Mark wrote in response to feedback.

I wish we got the post-playtest yet pre-release version of the kineticist.


Alexander Augunas wrote:

The base kineticist is designed around bringing both all-day damage and consistent, caster-like utility. Are they as good as martials? No. Do they have as much utility as casters? Again, no. But in both cases, they shouldn't. Balance-wise, the kineticist is a work of art.

Now, if you want to be Captain DR, the elemental annihilator archetype is for you. If you want more utility, consider the kinetic chirgureon.

Yes, but it's the Le Déjeuner en fourrure of classes. It's not particularly attractive, you can't drink tea from it, and a Chinese Gazelle died to make it.

Well, not a Chinese Gazelle per se but the hopes and dreams of everyone who liked the 3.5 warlock.


Side note, but please remember that you can't use Gather Power or Infusion Specialization to reduce the cost of Metakinesis, and that Empower only increases variable damage. 1d10+100 increases to (1d10*1.5)+100 when it's empowered, for example.


Hi, I made a level 10 archer inquisitor

Archer Man:

Archer Man
Human inquisitor (witch hunter) of Shelyn 10 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 38, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 53)
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +9; Senses Perception +21
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 23, touch 16, flat-footed 17 (+7 armor, +6 Dex)
hp 83 (10d8+30)
Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +12; +4 dodge bonus vs allies spells that have this feat
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk glaive +13/+8 (1d10+4/×3)
Ranged +2 adaptive holy composite longbow +17/+17/+12 (1d8+6/19-20/×3 plus 2d6 vs. evil)
Special Attacks greater bane (18 rounds/day), judgment 4/day (2 simultaneous)
Inquisitor (Witch Hunter) Spells Known (CL 10th; concentration +13)
4th (1/day)—freedom of movement, greater invisibility
3rd (4/day)—dispel magic, heroism, magic vestment, greater magic weapon
2nd (5/day)—invisibility, resist energy, lesser restoration, see invisibility, weapon of awe[APG] (DC 15)
1st (6/day)—cure light wounds, divine favor, litany of sloth[UC], protection from evil, shield of faith
0 (at will)—brand[APG] (DC 13), create water, detect magic, guidance, light, read magic
Domain Conversion inquisition
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 22, Con 15, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 7
Base Atk +7; CMB +12; CMD 26
Feats Coordinated Shot[ACG], Extended Bane[UM], Friendly Fire Maneuvers, Manyshot, Point-blank Shot, Precise Shot, Quicken Spell, Rapid Shot, Volley Fire
Traits fate's favored, magical lineage
Skills Acrobatics +8, Appraise +2, Bluff +5, Climb +9, Diplomacy +18, Disguise +0, Escape Artist +8, Fly +8, Heal +9, Intimidate +8, Knowledge (arcana) +12, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (nature) +8, Knowledge (planes) +11, Knowledge (religion) +15, Perception +21, Ride +8, Sense Motive +8, Spellcraft +15 (+18 to identify a spell as it's being cast, to identify the properties of a magic item using detect magic, or to decipher a scroll), Stealth +21, Survival +5, Swim +9
Languages Common
SQ knowledgeable defense, solo tactics, spell sage, spell scent, stern gaze +5, swaying word
Combat Gear extend metamagic rod (lesser); Other Gear +2 mithral kikko armor, +2 adaptive holy composite longbow, mwk glaive, bane baldric, belt of physical perfection +2, bracers of falcon's aim, headband of inspired wisdom +2, 150 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Coordinated Shot If ally threatens but doesn't provide cover gain +1 bon on ranged atks vs opp.
Extend metamagic rod (lesser, 3/day) Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell like abilities) as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod's wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.

Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day. A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action).

The wielder can cast up to three spells per day that are extended as though using the Extend Spell feat. Lesser metamagic rods can be used with spells of 3rd level or lower.

Construction
Requirements: Craft Rod, Extend Spell feat; Cost 1,500 gp
Fate's Favored Increase luck bonuses by 1.
Friendly Fire Maneuvers Allies who also have this feat cannot provide soft cover to enemies.
Greater Bane (+2 / 4d6, 18 rounds/day) (Su) Make the weapon you are holding a bane weapon.
Inquisitor (Witch Hunter) Domain (Conversion Inquisition) Deities: Any deity.

Granted Powers: You are a powerful persuader. A honeyed tongue empowered by divine argumentation sways the indifferent and adversarial to your side.
Knowledgeable Defense +3 At 2nd level, a witch hunter who identifies a spell with Spellcraft gains a bonus against its effects, either a +1 bonus on saving throws or a +1 dodge bonus to AC against this spell. This bonus increases every four levels (to a maximum of +5 at 18th
Magical Lineage (Divine Favor) A chosen spell counts as 1 level lower when metamagic feats are applied to it.
Manyshot You can shoot two arrows as the first attack of a full attack action.
Point-Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Precise Shot You don't get -4 to hit when shooting or throwing into melee.
Quicken Spell Cast a spell as a swift action. +4 Levels.
Rapid Shot You get an extra attack with ranged weapons. Each attack is at -2.
Second Judgment (4/day) (Su) Variable bonuses increase as the combat continues.
Solo Tactics (Ex) Count Teamwork feats as if your allies had the same ones.
Spell Sage +3 (Ex) At 1st level, a witch hunter adds her Wisdom modifier on Spellcraft checks in addition to her Intelligence modifier when attempting to identify a spell as it is being cast, to identify the properties of a magic item using detect magic, or to d
Spell Scent (1/day) At 6th level, the witch hunter learns how to sense unique spell signatures, and can follow the trail of a cast spell or spell effect cast back to its source. Once per day, when the witch hunter comes into contact with or is exposed to a spell effect
Swaying Word (1/day, DC 18) (Sp) Spoken word of divine wisdom dominates one person for 1 min (Will neg).
Volley Fire +1 to range atk rolls for each ally with feat who made range atk since end of turn vs tar within 15' of tar.


Base DPR, with magic vest, magic weapon, and heroism:
37.46

With Bane:
78.23

With Destruction and justice up
60.6

With Bane and Judgment:
110.97
With divine favor as well:
140.63

Inquisitors are pretty strong archers. All this plus being great at diplomacy, stealth, and other stuff


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Aratrok wrote:

Side note, but please remember that you can't use Gather Power or Infusion Specialization to reduce the cost of Metakinesis, and that Empower only increases variable damage. 1d10+100 increases to (1d10*1.5)+100 when it's empowered, for example.

I'm like 80% sure you're wrong on that first one (it's...utterly worthless otherwise), but I know for a FAQ you're wrong on the second.

Heh. Heh.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Aratrok wrote:

Side note, but please remember that you can't use Gather Power or Infusion Specialization to reduce the cost of Metakinesis, and that Empower only increases variable damage. 1d10+100 increases to (1d10*1.5)+100 when it's empowered, for example.

Are you sure that's how empower works?

Empower Spell wrote:
All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls.

I think at least the +1 on the d6s is multiplied. Not sure about your Con modifier.


Metakinesis is not a blast wild talent or infusion, nor does it increase the cost of the blast talent- it is its own source of burn.

Fair point on the second one- I just looked up Empower Spell and its changed, so I'm going to guess that one went to actual Errata at some point in the last few years.

Edit:
For reference, the original text of Empower Spell.

Spoiler:

Core Rulebook wrote:

All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.

Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Aratrok wrote:

Metakinesis is not a blast wild talent or infusion, nor does it increase the cost of the blast talent- it is its own source of burn.

Fair point on the second one- I just looked up Empower Spell and its changed, so I'm going to guess that one went to actual Errata at some point in the last few years.

I just meant the "empower spell" effect, not sure about it's burn cost. I've noticed a number of people are going off the assumption that gather power works with metakinesis, and I think Mark may have even said that it's supposed to work. I could be totally off on that, though.

EDIT:FOUND IT!


Aratrok wrote:
Metakinesis is not a blast wild talent or infusion, nor does it increase the cost of the blast talent- it is its own source of burn.
Quote:

At 5th level, a kineticist gains the ability to

alter her kinetic blasts as if with metamagic feats by accepting
burn. By accepting 1 point of burn, she can empower her kinetic
blast (as if using Empower Spell).

?


Your point? Nowhere in the text for Metakinesis:

Spoiler:
Occult Adventures wrote:

At 5th level, a kineticist gains the ability to

alter her kinetic blasts as if with metamagic feats by accepting
burn. By accepting 1 point of burn, she can empower her kinetic
blast (as if using Empower Spell). At 9th level, by accepting
2 points of burn, she can maximize her kinetic blast as if using
Maximize Spell. At 13th level, by accepting 3 points of burn,
she can quicken her kinetic blast as if using Quicken Spell.
At 17th level, by accepting 4 points of burn, the kineticist can
use her kinetic blast twice with the same standard action, or
swift action if she also uses metakinesis to quicken the blast.
When she uses a double kinetic blast, all modifications, such
as metakinesis and infusions, apply to both of the blasts, but
the kineticist needs to pay the burn cost only once.

...is it tagged as increasing the cost of a blast talent or being an infusion. It's not a valid target for Gather Power or Infusion Specialization.

EDIT: Neat. The book already needs errata for broken class features that don't function as intended. :p


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Aratrok wrote:

Your point? Nowhere in the text for Metakinesis:

** spoiler omitted **

...is it tagged as increasing the cost of a blast talent or being an infusion. It's not a valid target for Gather Power or Infusion Specialization.

Check my previous post. You may be pleasantly surprised.


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A 12th level Air/Water Kineticist with a Lesser Diadem of Air and 24 Consitution can be constantly flying and dropping Chain Empowered Electric Blasts for 10d6+16 for the initial blast with it dropping 1d6 per blast per target until you run out of d6s or targets. That's pretty awesome, imo. Average of 51 damage, dropping by 3.5 every jump. On certain level 12 scenarios, that is half the health of a lot of the bad guys. It is 1/3rd of the health of a classic big bad like a Juvenile Red Dragon (CR 12) and you can't miss.

Maybe you are up against a single BBEG. Start tossing out Empowered Magnetic Charged Water Blasts for 0 Burn at 19d6+40. Supercharged Gather Power + Infusion Specialization means the 5 Burn becomes 0 Burn. Oh, and your friends all hit the creature with metal weapons at +4. A no cost 106.5 damage blast sounds awesome to me!

Can a level 12 Aristocrat do 106.5 damage a turn while flying? I dunno, but I'm happy that he can nearly one shot anything in a published adventure. I actually struggle to find something I want to spend Burn on. Maybe adding Maximize, but then I would just drop the Magnetic and still not take Burn. How much damage is that? 78 (13d6) + 6d6 (21 avg.) + 40. 139 damage every round with taking any Burn. All while flying.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just popping in to remind everyone that you can't have a conductive bow, since conductive is not one of the enchantments that convey its special power on its ammunition.

You'd need a bundle of conductive arrows, and good luck paying for all of those!

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