Kineticist damage?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I thought it said 10d10+10 per.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:

I thought it said 10d10+10 per.

I think it's easy to misread it that way but it is d6s.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
xevious573 wrote:
Azten wrote:

Empower increases the damage dice by half again.

EDIT: Also, the FAQ on Empower Spell, found here would mean that an empowered Omnicide would deal 15d10+15 points of damage for each damage type listed.

That's not how Empower works.

Empowered Omnicide deals 15d6+15 points of bludgeoning damage, 15d6+15 points of cold damage, 15d6+15 points of electricity damage, 15d6+15 points of fire damage, and 15d6+15 points of force damage.

For a total of of 75d6+75. Empowered spells don't change die types.

Thank you! I thought I was going crazy. I wasn't confused by the number of dice being rolled, I was confused by the d6's being d10's.


Huh. I'd forgotten it was only d6.

Still...

Omnicide: 15d6 + 15 + 15d6 + 15 + 15d6 + 15 + 15d6 + 15 + 15d6 + 15 ⇒ (2, 3, 1, 3, 6, 1, 5, 2, 3, 5, 5, 6, 4, 5, 5) + 15 + (6, 3, 4, 5, 5, 4, 4, 6, 3, 4, 2, 1, 2, 4, 2) + 15 + (1, 5, 2, 1, 3, 3, 3, 5, 3, 4, 4, 6, 1, 3, 1) + 15 + (5, 5, 4, 6, 2, 1, 2, 1, 3, 2, 6, 1, 3, 5, 5) + 15 + (6, 6, 6, 1, 1, 4, 2, 4, 1, 4, 1, 6, 2, 3, 1) + 15 = 330

Awesome. I'm not gonna roll that much dice at the table though.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Honestly... I'm not completely certain it really matters. It's practically a "That dude is now dead." save for any immunities. Doubly true (heh) if Double or Maximized Blast is brought into the the mix.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
someweirdguy wrote:
xevious573 wrote:
Azten wrote:

Empower increases the damage dice by half again.

EDIT: Also, the FAQ on Empower Spell, found here would mean that an empowered Omnicide would deal 15d10+15 points of damage for each damage type listed.

That's not how Empower works.

Empowered Omnicide deals 15d6+15 points of bludgeoning damage, 15d6+15 points of cold damage, 15d6+15 points of electricity damage, 15d6+15 points of fire damage, and 15d6+15 points of force damage.

For a total of of 75d6+75. Empowered spells don't change die types.

Thank you! I thought I was going crazy. I wasn't confused by the number of dice being rolled, I was confused by the d6's being d10's.

That's not how Empowered works either.

You roll your dice normally (including the static modifiers on the end), THEN you multiply your SUM by 1.5.


Torbyne wrote:
The FAQ for gather power doesn't mention composite blasts but those are still covered by it, yeah?

The FAQ didn't mention composite blasts because those are already specifically "blast talents" and gather power works for any blasts.

The FAQ was to clear up the confusion from the wording of metakinesis, infusion, omnikinesis where they modify blasts (simple or composite) and gather power is applied to the total modified blast.


Ravingdork wrote:
someweirdguy wrote:
xevious573 wrote:
Azten wrote:

Empower increases the damage dice by half again.

EDIT: Also, the FAQ on Empower Spell, found here would mean that an empowered Omnicide would deal 15d10+15 points of damage for each damage type listed.

That's not how Empower works.

Empowered Omnicide deals 15d6+15 points of bludgeoning damage, 15d6+15 points of cold damage, 15d6+15 points of electricity damage, 15d6+15 points of fire damage, and 15d6+15 points of force damage.

For a total of of 75d6+75. Empowered spells don't change die types.

Thank you! I thought I was going crazy. I wasn't confused by the number of dice being rolled, I was confused by the d6's being d10's.

That's not how Empowered works either.

You roll your dice normally (including the static modifiers on the end), THEN you multiply your SUM by 1.5.

You sure? I've never seen it run that way, and it can be read either way.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Rynjin wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
someweirdguy wrote:
xevious573 wrote:
Azten wrote:

Empower increases the damage dice by half again.

EDIT: Also, the FAQ on Empower Spell, found here would mean that an empowered Omnicide would deal 15d10+15 points of damage for each damage type listed.

That's not how Empower works.

Empowered Omnicide deals 15d6+15 points of bludgeoning damage, 15d6+15 points of cold damage, 15d6+15 points of electricity damage, 15d6+15 points of fire damage, and 15d6+15 points of force damage.

For a total of of 75d6+75. Empowered spells don't change die types.

Thank you! I thought I was going crazy. I wasn't confused by the number of dice being rolled, I was confused by the d6's being d10's.

That's not how Empowered works either.

You roll your dice normally (including the static modifiers on the end), THEN you multiply your SUM by 1.5.

You sure? I've never seen it run that way, and it can be read either way.

I can guarantee you that my way is the correct way in this instance. Not only has it been confirmed throughout multiple editions (including this one), it keeps people with odd numbers of dice from getting shafted.


Where was it confirmed?


The FAQ implies that one would add +50% to the sum (example of 2d8 + level based bonus).

Plus increasing the number of damage dice by half isn't really going with what the Empower feat's benefit says:
"Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls."
The total value of the initial dice roll and variables are increased by half, not "max potential damage is increased by half" by adding 50% more dice to roll.


Protoman wrote:

The FAQ implies that one would add +50% to the sum (example of 2d8 + level based bonus).

Plus increasing the number of damage dice by half isn't really going with what the Empower feat's benefit says:
"Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls."
The total value of the initial dice roll and variables are increased by half, not "max potential damage is increased by half" by adding 50% more dice to roll.

Oh, another thing the kineticist has taught me. cool. well, not cool, it makes chain not nearly as awesome for electric blasts anymore.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Rynjin wrote:
Where was it confirmed?

It is confirmed here, here, here* and here. I'm fairly certain you get more damage this way, so this method is a good thing.

I hope that helps. :D

* Though this ruling was later changed to include that static variable, it still shows that you do the multiplication after the roll, even if there is only one die--which wouldn't work using the method of "adding more dice."


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Triune wrote:

Can we PLEASE stop using the argument that being able to blast all day is this huge balancing factor? NO ONE HAS COMBAT ALL DAY. The system is not built around that assumption. Your combat options only have to last through the combats in a given day. Doing piddly damage is not made up for by the argument that "Hey guys, if we have to have 16 combats today, I'll be marginally more useful by comparison!"

The class has a lot of flavor. The class has a lot of blasting focus (I'm looking at you, pyrokineticists). The class is undertuned. Not to the level some complain about, but enough that it shows. Burn costs are nearly universally too high, and damage scales very poorly.

+1 every day of the week until I die to this. People don't understand that it's a matter of cost required. Classes with resources can do these marathon type situations just fine because if we're dealing with 16 encounters worth of enemies today it will fall into two categories.

1. The encounters are appropriately weaker than typical encounters and thus those with resources can keep up just fine (usually be needing less or no resources at all to mop up).

2. The encounters aren't appropriately weaker, in which case the classes that lag behind because they aren't balanced for resource usage get screwed because now they're operating at sub-par for 16 encounters.

It also means the resource-less class cannot rev up for fewer, bigger encounters, which also sucks for them.


I will say, though, that being able to blast all day has made a couple of my players very, very happy. Even if the class hurts a bit because of it, the fact that fire dude can be fire dude all day makes those "Timmies" pee their pants.


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I'm not talking about any specific classes. In fact, I have no dog in the kineticist fight because I don't have any real interest in Occult Adventures beyond academic interest in the system. It doesn't matter to me how well the kineticist performs (unlike the core classes that I care about, or did care about).

I was referring to the fallacious idea that "energizer bunny vs resource expenditure" has traditionally been a bad argument and continues to be a bad argument. It always ends badly for the bunny, where the resource guys either don't need to use those resources in endurance games or they do and the guy with no resources is screwed either way.


Ravingdork wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Where was it confirmed?

It is confirmed here, here, here* and here. I'm fairly certain you get more damage this way, so this method is a good thing.

I hope that helps. :D

* Though this ruling was later changed to include that static variable, it still shows that you do the multiplication after the roll, even if there is only one die--which wouldn't work using the method of "adding more dice."

Well JJ has been proven wrong fairly often on rules things, but that last one seems fairy clear.


Just did a one shot today with this character

I ran empower like people suggested 1.5*(all). Since you can gather power as a move action and empower is one burn point my attack was (5d6+21)*1.5 at +15 to-hit. I also ran that I could empower kinetic healing since I was doing blast damage.

As expected, every door and most obstacles weighed over 900lbs. I got the wizard treatment and the fighter sighed at mine and the shaman's antics.

My opinion of the telekinesis has went up. I would put it right next to any other fullcasters.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

All doors were over 900lbs?

Was this a giant's castle?

Maybe the Fortress of Overcompensating Dwarves?


So with Mark clarifying some things, how does this class measure up for damage and utility now?


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Utility can still be costly sometimes, but it generally holds its own pretty well.


Ravingdork wrote:
Utility can still be costly sometimes, but it generally holds its own pretty well.

How would you compare it to existing classes?


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I wouldn't.


Ravingdork wrote:
I wouldn't.

XD

Sovereign Court

Mind if I ask how you got 5d6+21 as your blast damage? I'm assuming that's with 3 points of burn, which puts you at +3 to hit/+6 damage and pumps your dex/con to 22/25 as shown on the sheet. In which case the damage should be 5d6+5 base, +7 for Con, +6 for Overflow = 5d6+19.


deadly aim?

Sovereign Court

Chess Pwn wrote:
deadly aim?

That was my first thought, but it's not on the feat list, and if that was the case it would be +23 at 9th level (4 BAB for -2 to hit/+4 dmg).


Talon Stormwarden wrote:
Mind if I ask how you got 5d6+21 as your blast damage? I'm assuming that's with 3 points of burn, which puts you at +3 to hit/+6 damage and pumps your dex/con to 22/25 as shown on the sheet. In which case the damage should be 5d6+5 base, +7 for Con, +6 for Overflow = 5d6+19.

ah well i guess it should have been 5d6+18. I was adding 9 from elemental overflow instead of 6 because it was late, and I was tired.

Sovereign Court

I'm looking for more damage for my telekineticist, so I had hoped you knew something I didn't. :)


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Being to blast "all day" is really just a QoL improvement.
Not because you can blast all day, but because you don't have to book-keep each and every use.

Sovereign Court

So I was pondering what magic items might benefit the kineticist, since the ones actually designed for it (from Occlut Adventures) are pretty expensive for what they do. It occurred to me I could pick up a wand of Reduce Person for to hit bonuses (size and dex boosts), and then I saw the 'Songbird of Doom' thread and realized the Ring of Seven Lovely Colors is awesome for a kineticist. Of course it doesn't have the crazy synergy as for the mouser builds, but for 4k a +4 to hit and AC plus flight seems like a heck of a buy.


Conductive (double barrel) guns, if you don't mind focusing on touch blasts.


Mark Seifter wrote:

Don't forget doubling it for even more damage! Omnicide is a new blast, so technically it is only associated with the universals. However, imagine an empowered omnicide whip full attack!!

Annihilator: "Sure buddy, you could provoke an AoO from my reach if you want...for 484 damage!"

As a designer does this honestly seem reasonable to you?

Just to crunch some simple numbers you have +15 bab + 4 blast training + 6 overflow + 3 for overflow size bonus for a total of +28 before to hit stat or group buffs.

looking at ACs for CR 20 targets gives us an average AC of 37 (range 31-41) with an average health of 365 (range 310 -418)

Our Kineticist without stats needs a 9 to hit the average AC with the AOO, add in a little WBL gives him +5 to hit (belt and tome) so as long as he started with a +3 in his to hit stat he is auto hitting the average AC. Than thanks to other doing the average damage we see he 1 shots these CR 20 creatures. Thats right what our core rulebook claims is an "average" difficulty for a full part of PCs is an incidental AOO for the kineticist who isn't even trying to max his combat stats.

I honestly want to know how that seems like a properly designed class to you?


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Above post in a thread of people complaining about low damage.

*opinion diversity intensifies*


I don't think the developers really care about level 20. The capstones seem to be considered as flavor that people will look at and few will play.

Touch ac has always been poorly designed. DR 15 is common. So is having one or two immunities and two or more resistance 10s to energy. The many dragons at that level are usually pretty terrible compared to other random creatures.


crazedloon wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Don't forget doubling it for even more damage! Omnicide is a new blast, so technically it is only associated with the universals. However, imagine an empowered omnicide whip full attack!!

Annihilator: "Sure buddy, you could provoke an AoO from my reach if you want...for 484 damage!"

As a designer does this honestly seem reasonable to you?

Just to crunch some simple numbers you have +15 bab + 4 blast training + 6 overflow + 3 for overflow size bonus for a total of +28 before to hit stat or group buffs.

looking at ACs for CR 20 targets gives us an average AC of 37 (range 31-41) with an average health of 365 (range 310 -418)

Our Kineticist without stats needs a 9 to hit the average AC with the AOO, add in a little WBL gives him +5 to hit (belt and tome) so as long as he started with a +3 in his to hit stat he is auto hitting the average AC. Than thanks to other doing the average damage we see he 1 shots these CR 20 creatures. Thats right what our core rulebook claims is an "average" difficulty for a full part of PCs is an incidental AOO for the kineticist who isn't even trying to max his combat stats.

I honestly want to know how that seems like a properly designed class to you?

1.) The game goes off the rails around 15th. Capstones are MEANT to be incredibly powerful.

2.) The average character should be able to solo a CR = APL challenge easily. Any martial class can drop a guy in a single full attack like that. And aren't limited to doing it 2-3 times per day and dropping their maximum health by 60 points with every shot.


Rynjin wrote:
1.) The game goes off the rails around 15th. Capstones are MEANT to be incredibly powerful.

Saying this does not allow the design of a class to just go off the rails, or more precisely should not allow it to go off the rails. That would be like selling a car and saying it can go to 100mph but it falls apart at 75. It is not the drivers fault that they wish to use their car to its full extent, it is the cars design that is a problem.

That being said the damage output even at lower levels has some major flaws, but I really rather not have to look up all your chosen level for average AC and HP to prove that point.

Rynjin wrote:
2.) The average character should be able to solo a CR = APL challenge easily. Any martial class can drop a guy in a single full attack like that. And aren't limited to doing it 2-3 times per day and dropping their maximum health by 60 points with every shot.

I presume you have never played any of the adventure paths or PFS. This is not the designers intention. I will not argue that you can not do it, because you can. All of the published material is written with the idea that you are using a 4+ man party and that you will all contribute to each fight, not that 1 character solos encounters.

There could be a disconnect between the Class designers and the adventure designers but if that is the case than there is a problem, and this is why I asked a designer if he thinks those numbers are reasonable.

As to your quip about a melee fighter being able to drop most CR equivalent thing in 1 full attack the kineticist in the example was not using a full attack he was using an AOO, his full attack has even sillier numbers associated with it.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Woah, wait what?

People expect Soloing APL challenges as a reasonable expectation?

Do you know what the APL for a solo character is?

It's Character level -3.

The game assumes you have 4 characters and that's what makes a CR equivalent encounter average.

So to me a 7th level character should be able to solo a CR 4 creature, with only minor damage. A 20th level character should solo a CR 17 monster, but a CR 20 monster, when fought solo is an epic challenge.

Have people been aiming their optimisation for solo combat against encounters balanced for 4 person parties? That is crazy pants to me, that is such an unreasonable expectation I can only odd, because I can't even.


Have you seen CR4 monsters? On average they are weaker than any decent 4th level character.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
crazedloon wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Don't forget doubling it for even more damage! Omnicide is a new blast, so technically it is only associated with the universals. However, imagine an empowered omnicide whip full attack!!

Annihilator: "Sure buddy, you could provoke an AoO from my reach if you want...for 484 damage!"

...does this honestly seem reasonable to you?

At 20th-level it most certainly does.


The Rogue has an ability that allows him to CDG enemies at-will at 20th level. Why is (50d6+50)×1.5 unreasonable in the face of that?

Scarab Sages

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Have people been aiming their optimisation for solo combat against encounters balanced for 4 person parties? That is crazy pants to me, that is such an unreasonable expectation I can only odd, because I can't even.

I saw a similar thread over at GitP, where people complain that a Kineticist's damage at 10th level is about half of what an optimized blaster Sorcerer can do. The Kineticist's damage was "only" equivalent to a Barbarian (assuming no AoE forms!). I wonder what world these optimizers are living in — personally, I've never played in a group where a Barbarian's damage output was considered lacking. ;o)

That said, the lack of items one can buy to improve one's Kinetic blast is pretty sad. Not that such items would be desperately needed at the power levels for which the game is designed, but it just feels we're locked out of the toy store. In particular, the diadem strikes me as horribly overpriced, considering its bonus only every applies once per round, as opposed to, say, the much cheaper flaming enchantment on a weapon.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Insain Dragoon wrote:
Have you seen CR4 monsters? On average they are weaker than any decent 4th level character.

I don't want to derail the thread with this, but yes a PC should be better than its CR equivalent, but not necessarily so much greater that it can expect to two round such a creature solo regularly.


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crazedloon wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
1.) The game goes off the rails around 15th. Capstones are MEANT to be incredibly powerful.

Saying this does not allow the design of a class to just go off the rails, or more precisely should not allow it to go off the rails. That would be like selling a car and saying it can go to 100mph but it falls apart at 75. It is not the drivers fault that they wish to use their car to its full extent, it is the cars design that is a problem.

That being said the damage output even at lower levels has some major flaws, but I really rather not have to look up all your chosen level for average AC and HP to prove that point.

The average Kineticist takes roughly 3 rounds to kill a CR = APL target at the levels I've looked at (6th and 11th) vs 2 for something like a Fighter.

The car analogy was f&$!ing stupid when someone used it a few days ago, and remains so now. I see no reason to dignify it with a real response.

crazedloon wrote:

I presume you have never played any of the adventure paths or PFS. This is not the designers intention. I will not argue that you can not do it, because you can. All of the published material is written with the idea that you are using a 4+ man party and that you will all contribute to each fight, not that 1 character solos encounters.

I don't play PFS. I do play Adventure paths.

There's a reason adventure paths end at 16th and PFS ends at 12th, however. The game BREAKS at high levels.

CR is meaningless after abut CR 14. Damage output becomes so massive that most dedicated damage dealers can take on "Boss" creatures and drop them in one round. This is where the term "rocket tag" comes into play.

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Woah, wait what?

People expect Soloing APL challenges as a reasonable expectation?

Do you know what the APL for a solo character is?

It's Character level -3.

The game assumes you have 4 characters and that's what makes a CR equivalent encounter average.

So to me a 7th level character should be able to solo a CR 4 creature, with only minor damage. A 20th level character should solo a CR 17 monster, but a CR 20 monster, when fought solo is an epic challenge.

Have people been aiming their optimisation for solo combat against encounters balanced for 4 person parties? That is crazy pants to me, that is such an unreasonable expectation I can only odd, because I can't even.

Yes, that is the EXPECTED result.

Which is horrendously naive of the designers if you actually look at the numbers on those things.

Look at level 7. Fighter, 20 Str. Weapon Focus, Weapon spec, Weapon Training 1, +1 weapon. So, +15 to-hit, 2d6+11 damage a swing. This is WITHOUT Power Attack, mind you. I.E. this is a fairly unoptimized Fighter.

CR 7: 20 AC (the Fighter hits on a 5, then a 10).

85 HP vs a potential damage of 4d6+22 (36 average damage). Takes 3 rounds to kill, barely (could probably be 3 rounds if he missed one attack as well, don't feel like running full DPR calcs).

Now let's look at the other direction:

Fighter AC is around 24 (14 Dex, +1 armor, +1 Ring of Protection, +1 Amulet of Natural Armor), HP is around 67 (14 Con, 10 1st level, 6 per level = 36, +7 Favored Class).

Enemy hits him on an 11 on his best attack, and a 17 on its worst. It deals an average damage of 30 (per round, not per attack), if both attacks hit (which is far more unlikely than the Fighter hitting both of his), so has at best, a 3 round kill. Likely 5.

Advantage: Fighter.

The gap gets SOOOOOO much bigger as levels go up.


CalethosVB wrote:
The Rogue has an ability that allows him to CDG enemies at-will at 20th level. Why is (50d6+50)×1.5 unreasonable in the face of that?

seeing as the target gets a fort save, which has an average of 22+ at CR 20, I would indeed say it is still unreasonable because there is no save to not fall over dead due to damage


Catharsis wrote:
DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
Have people been aiming their optimisation for solo combat against encounters balanced for 4 person parties? That is crazy pants to me, that is such an unreasonable expectation I can only odd, because I can't even.

I saw a similar thread over at GitP, where people complain that a Kineticist's damage at 10th level is about half of what an optimized blaster Sorcerer can do. The Kineticist's damage was "only" equivalent to a Barbarian (assuming no AoE forms!). I wonder what world these optimizers are living in — personally, I've never played in a group where a Barbarian's damage output was considered lacking. ;o)

That said, the lack of items one can buy to improve one's Kinetic blast is pretty sad. Not that such items would be desperately needed at the power levels for which the game is designed, but it just feels we're locked out of the toy store. In particular, the diadem strikes me as horribly overpriced, considering its bonus only every applies once per round, as opposed to, say, the much cheaper flaming enchantment on a weapon.

I on the other hand absolutely LOVE the lack of items.

My big six is down to 5. I hate mandatory magic items, so when a class is balanced around having one less it makes my day. If we could use magical longswords, I feel like either elemental overflow would be weaker or we would be expected to use either power attack or deadly aim every round.


Rynjin wrote:
The average Kineticist takes roughly 3 rounds to kill a CR = APL target at the levels I've looked at (6th and 11th) vs 2 for something like a Fighter.

The difference is the fighter lacks any of the utility the kineticist now sports, and does not get to hit touch AC which means the DPR calculations becomes wacky with many targets which rely on heavy natural armor or other things to bump AC high or DR which the fighter may not be able to bypass. The former means that the 1 round supposed loss of damage is not so relevant and the latter means in many cases the DPR on the kinetesist is better than the fighters.

Rynjin wrote:
the car analogy was f$$#ing stupid when someone used it a few days ago, and remains so now. I see no reason to dignify it with a real response.

didn't realize someone else used the same analogy, but good to see you can react appropriately to a completely accurate analogy. We as players spend time and money on this product, therefor it is completely reasonable for us to wish that product to work all the way through its intended "design."

Rynjin wrote:

I don't play PFS. I do play Adventure paths.

There's a reason adventure paths end at 16th and PFS ends at 12th, however. The game BREAKS at high levels.

CR is meaningless after abut CR 14. Damage output becomes so massive that most dedicated damage dealers can take on "Boss" creatures and drop them in one round. This is where the term "rocket tag" comes into play.

I then will ask you do you think that that means the game is healty and well designed or that there are some flaws with its high levels. Equally in most published material this happens much lower than 14 when discussing "well" built characters.


crazedloon wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
The average Kineticist takes roughly 3 rounds to kill a CR = APL target at the levels I've looked at (6th and 11th) vs 2 for something like a Fighter.
The difference is the fighter lacks any of the utility the kineticist now sports, and does not get to hit touch AC which means the DPR calculations becomes wacky with many targets which rely on heavy natural armor or other things to bump AC high or DR which the fighter may not be able to bypass. The former means that the 1 round supposed loss of damage is not so relevant and the latter means in many cases the DPR on the kinetesist is better than the fighters.

Well, yes. Every class is better than Fighters.

Your real trouble is that the comparison to the Inquisitor is even more unfavorable. Lower damage AND lower utility.

crazedloon wrote:


didn't realize someone else used the same analogy, but good to see you can react appropriately to a completely accurate analogy. We as players spend time and money on this product, therefor it is completely reasonable for us to wish that product to work all the way through its intended "design."

It certainly is reasonable to expect the game to work properly.

Unfortunately, it doesn't.

No likening everything that breaks the game to "People driving too fast because even though the car goes that fast it wasn't intended to" changes the fact that it doesn't work properly, and that's a problem with the GAME, not the PLAYER.

Edit: You know, that may be what you were actually saying. I think I kind of glossed over it because it sounded like that other analogy that cropped up in a very similar thread.

crazedloon wrote:


I then will ask you do you think that that means the game is healthy and well designed or that there are some flaws with its high levels. Equally in most published material this happens much lower than 14 when discussing "well" built characters.

Of course there are problems.

The problem with APs is mainly the adventure design though. It relies a lot on the single important enemy, for example.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Rynjin wrote:
There's a reason adventure paths end at 16th and PFS ends at 12th, however. The game BREAKS at high levels.

Games don't break down, the people do. My friends and I play high level all the time, and the only problems that come up are style of play issues.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
There's a reason adventure paths end at 16th and PFS ends at 12th, however. The game BREAKS at high levels.
Games don't break down, the people do. My friends and I play high level all the time, and the only problems that come up are style of play issues.

Yeah I don't have much trouble (if any) with high level games either. They mostly just require you to understand the nature of the beast.

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