Kineticist damage?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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The damage does go down. Touch Attacks don't work with Deadly Aim.

Sovereign Court

Honestly I'm a little baffled why they didn't allow touch attacks, but at 1d6+1/2 Con


Rynjin wrote:
Dekalinder wrote:
Rynjin wrote:


Did I miss any big damage boosters? Deadly Aim need not apply (they're touch attacks).

Diadem I guess. Bracers of Falcon Aim is a cheap +1 to hit. And maybe a morning Elemental Form to buff yourself at the start of the day with the base kineticist.

I think Diadem + composite blasts are going to reverse the DPR status.

Diadem is only an extra 1d6 damage. Not nearly enough to make up that 14 DPR gap (since Empowered Composite was already accounted for).

Even the better Diadems only increase it by 2d6 and 3d6, and that price is STEEP at most levels.

I imagine the Physical blast comparison would be roughly equivalent DPR with Composite blasts (adding a whopping 16 extra static damage to the blast, and still having a respectable to-hit), but not the Energy blasts (which normally aren't usable with Annihilator anyway).

This leads me to the conclusion that a lot of the damage problems with Kineticists is the Energy blasts especially, not the Physical ones. They just do SO much less damage that even allowing the use of an archetype usually illegal for them only puts them roughly on par with Physical blasts.

Yeah, I'd say the Physical blaster would have a set-up looking something like this:

To-Hit: +20 (7 BaB, 7 Dex, 3 Overflow, 1 Weapon Focus, 1 Point Blank Shot, 1 Bracers), swapping the Dex and Con scores for 24 Dex and 22 Con. Vs AC 24.

Damage (Simple Empowered, no Diadem): 5d6+23 (+6 Con, +6 Overflow, +1 Point Blank Shot, +10 base blast damage). Average damage 60.75.

DPR: .85*60.75+.05*.85*60.75 = 54.22

Jesus the Physical DPR WITHOUT Composite is only two below the Energy one WITH it.

With Composite that jumps to:

Average Damage (level 11): 12d6+37 (+6 Con, +6 Overflow, +1 Point Blank Shot, +24 base blast damage). 118.5 when Empowered.

DPR (vs AC 25, same chance to hit): .85*118.5+.05*.85*118.5 = 105.8 DPR. I imagine that'd jump by about 5 points with Improved Critical, unless Kinetic Blasts are one of those dealies...

Any idea how a Geokineticist focused on Blade/Whip would compare?


Multiply that number by 2 or so, probably.


Physical blasters tend to pick up Deadly Aim too, since with empower mixed in it's fairly analogous to 2 handed Power Attack (-1atk/+3dmg)

Of course, a physical blader/whipper would grab Power Attack or (more likely) Piranha Strike for the same idea in melee, netting even more raw damage due to iteratives. Whether the acc loss translates into these feats resulting in less dpr instead of more is a question for people who want to bother crunching the numbers. I just know those feats are nice for raising the damage floor and ceiling a little bit more.


Ryzoken wrote:

Physical blasters tend to pick up Deadly Aim too, since with empower mixed in it's fairly analogous to 2 handed Power Attack (-1atk/+3dmg)

Of course, a physical blader/whipper would grab Power Attack or (more likely) Piranha Strike for the same idea in melee, netting even more raw damage due to iteratives. Whether the acc loss translates into these feats resulting in less dpr instead of more is a question for people who want to bother crunching the numbers. I just know those feats are nice for raising the damage floor and ceiling a little bit more.

I don't know how well this translates for whipping because I don't know the class very well, but I used Rynjin's Physical Blast numbers with deadly aim on and the damage output decreased by about 14. If a whip/blade keeps even close to the same damage output per hit then using Power Attack/Piranha Strike is almost certainly a mistake, because iteratives benefit from accuracy more than the first hit.


Ok I was checking the math and it is waaaay off. Rynjin totally missed the epower effect on the energy blast, and the physical had 5 more damage that I cannot account for. Let me try doing it from scratch.

Level 11 to account for no-burn composite. Both will have the same base stat with 24 COS (18 starting +4 augment +4 belt) and 20 DEX (18 starting +4 belt). Energy will add the overflow bonus of +4 to COS, while physical will add it to DEX. Final stat will be
Energy +9 COS mod, +6 DEX mod
Phys +8 COS mod, +7 DEX mod

Damage, no other equipment than stat bosters, enemy AC average for a CR 11 at 25, touch guesstimated at 14

Energy blast, simple
base damage 6d6 +4 cos +6 overflow +1PBS = 32 average, 48 empowered
to hit 8 BAB +6 DEX +3 overflow +1 PBS =+18
DPR = 48 (miss and crit basically cancel out each)
no DPR gain for more hit

Energy blast, composite
base damage 12d6 +4 cos +6 overflow +1PBS = 58 average, no empowered
to hit 8 BAB +6 DEX +3 overflow +1 PBS =+18
DPR = 58 (miss and crit basically cancel out each other)
no DPR gain for more hit

Physical blast, simple
base damage 6d6 +6 +8 cos +6 overflow +1PBS = 42 average, 63 empowered
to hit 8 BAB +7 DEX +3 overflow +1 PBS =+19 hit on 6+
DPR = 0.75*61.5 *1.05= 49.6
+1 hit is circa 3.1 more DPR

Physical blast, composite
base damage 12d6 +12 +8 cos +6 overflow +1PBS = 69 average, no empowered
to hit 8 BAB +7 DEX +3 overflow +1 PBS =+19 hit on 6+
DPR = 0.75*69 *1.05= 54.33
+1 hit is circa 3.5 more DPR

So, out of the gate energy and physical are actually quite similar in terms of DPR, but physical blast have an additional layer of optimization available with tweaking out the hit component of the blast. This however does not consider into account SR.
TL;DR Energy has a lower optimization floor and a proportionally lower optimization ceiling. Physical the opposite.

Scarab Sages

Interesting! How does melee change things? I would expect energy to come out ahead there, thanks to iteratives being much more useful.

My own back-of-the-envelope calculations tell me that melee damage is similar to ranged empowered blast damage due to the lack of overflow bonuses, although Haste changes that (and I assume AoOs from Whip do so as well).


If you want to melee energy is nice also because it let's you invest more on COS and less in DEX (6 DEX for a mithral chainmail is the maximum you can add to AC). I won't run math for melee because it's much more build-dependant compared to ranged.


So if I'm using Kinetic Blade/Whip, am I able to use metakinesis to empower the blast damage I am doing with each attack? So at lvl 8 being able to get 2 attacks for empowered blast damage minus the elemental overflow bonus damage?

Scarab Sages

Kindaul wrote:
So if I'm using Kinetic Blade/Whip, am I able to use metakinesis to empower the blast damage I am doing with each attack? So at lvl 8 being able to get 2 attacks for empowered blast damage minus the elemental overflow bonus damage?

Yes, although you must pay the combined burn cost to do so. You can reduce the cost with gather power, but that prevents you from making a full attack.


If you want to go nuts at level 11 you can spend 3 burn to empower a composite blast and then go to town with 3 hasted attacks at something like 18d6+39 damage each. If something does not die, then you better start running


Anyone else feel the Eruption and Torrent infusions are overly gimped in their use with physical blasts?

If we assume an 8 Con at lvl 8 for sake of simplicity and +2 overflow bonus.

Composite Energy blast eruption/torrent gets you:

8D6+8(1/2 Con + 4 overflow)=36 Empowered: 54

Physcal Blast gets you:

8D6+20(8 Con + 4 overflow + 8 blast damage)=48/2=24 Empowered: 36

That seems to be a pretty significant disparity for no reason since they both go against the same save. One is affected by energy resistance and the other by DR.

If you instead reduce the damage for using a physical blast by 25% you end up with 48*0.75=36 Empowered: 54. The exact same damage as energy, same saving throw, each affected by a different damage mitigating mechanic. Kind of feels like the 50% reduction was just tacked on without any thought or consideration at all for the sake of convenience or out of laziness. . .


Physical have higer base damage because they need to hit full AC. If you drop the need to hit, you need to lower their damage otherwise they always beats energy. They went a bit overborad with halving it, but since eruption is specifically a fire related infusion, and fire is basically centered around energy blasts (they have no phys simple blast and are the only element with an energy composite), I'm ok with eruption being best with energy than with physicals.


I understand why the damage is reduced, it's the amount that seems silly to me. This class is supposed to be about versatility and options, but it sure seems like they really want to punish the class for it. Like I said if they would have just did a 25% reduction then physical magma and steam eruptions would do the same damage as blue flame eruptions. They both get a reflex save for half so they should do the same damage. Fire still gets the option of doing simple fire blast eruptions free of charge all day long, or empowered ones if you're lvl 8. Where as with with the other earth or air related options you generally need to spend some burn to use eruption until lvl 11. With such a big reduction in damage it really turns you off mixing elements when you'd be better off just doing fire/fire or earth/earth since impale has no damage reduction and yet Torrent for some reason with the exact same effect(except Torrent allows a save where Impale is an attack roll) again punishes physical blasts with a 50% reduction. I mean if you don't want your versatile class to mix and match and have fun with it's options, then just say so. Don't provide the illusion of options when really you have a very select few good combinations and the rest are unnecessarily gimped. If they allowed you to obtain more composite blasts it would seem a little less restrictive maybe, but you're stuck with 1 or 2 simple blasts and one composite until much higher lvls. Then the infusion options your limited to selecting based on your choice of composite blasts gets further reduced by gimped options like eruption and torrent physical blasts... I just don't see a reason for it at all.

Wow I just realized that aside from Aether stuff, Blue Flame is the only energy composite blast. . . This class really could have used 2 more pages of stuff to flesh it out and really make it what it deserves to be.


Dekalinder wrote:
If you want to go nuts at level 11 you can spend 3 burn to empower a composite blast and then go to town with 3 hasted attacks at something like 18d6+39 damage each. If something does not die, then you better start running

Given that blasts are standard actions that don't get iteratives or haste attacks, and the flurry abilities that allow multiple attacks reduce you to one die, how so?


Dekalinder wrote:
If you want to melee energy is nice also because it let's you invest more on COS and less in DEX (6 DEX for a mithral chainmail is the maximum you can add to AC). I won't run math for melee because it's much more build-dependant compared to ranged.

You can get Celestial Armor for a +8 Dex cap, btw.

Casual Viking wrote:
Given that blasts are standard actions that don't get iteratives or haste attacks, and the flurry abilities that allow multiple attacks reduce you to one die, how so?

Kinetic Blade or Kinetic Whip.


Dekalinder, looks like your forgot the Composite Blasts are 2d6+2 per 2 levels for Physical Blasts, not 2d6+1. That's why your numbers came out so different from mine, you dropped 12 damage. And mine were assuming Empowered in that case.


2d6+2 per 2 level. The +x part is the same as the number of dices. 12d6 adds +12, not +24. Basically energy does d6 + half cos. Phys does +1 per dice and full cos. Composite double the numbers of dices for both types.
The math is very simple and consistent, as you would expect from someone like Mark.


D'oh. I goofed bad on that one.

So that puts them both back in the realm of suck. S~##.


I think "suck" is too strong of a word. Kinetic Fist sucks. Kinetic Blast is simply average. With a fair bit of optimization I think at level 11 you should be able to reach 70 DPR, whitch is pretty acceptable for a class with at will fly and all those other stuffs. It ain't no pistolero that's for sure.


That 54 DPR is about as good as you can get without Empower (which costs Burn. Which by definition means it sucks).

Sure, it ain't no Pistolero. But it ain't even an Inquisitor, or any other 3/4 BaB combat class whose name isn't "Rogue". It is roughly half of what those guys can get without breaking a sweat. An Inquisitor can get about 90 DPR just between Bane, Heroism, and Divine Favor (he can have these in every combat of the day). Toss on Judgment and that hops to 110 for about 4 combats a day. Even higher if you throw in Divine Power or Righteous Might.

And when he's out of those, he's not gimped by having eaten 11 HP every time he cast one.


Sure, if he uses the first round every combat to cast Divine Favor. I find it pretty ludricous the idea that you get to precast a ten round buff every time.
Anyway, 54 is the starting point, no feats aside prom PBS and precise shot, and no items aside from dex-cos belt. With +4 hit (weapon focus, size, bracer and whatever else) and improved critical your DPR gets to 74 with no burn. With no round wasted in buffs. Then you should factor your elements, and what tricks it gives you access to. And the fact that you have access to a decent selections of AOEs. I think you are underselling it a bit too hard. Haven't yet pitted one toe to toe with an inquisitor, but I find the idea of them being "too weak" a bit far-fetched.


At level 9 my aether was doing (5d6+18)*1.5 whenever she did not have to move. At +15 to hit and 480ft range, I did an average of 53.25 damage per round.


Or we can compare to a level 11 Archer Bard with

Inspire Courage
Good Hope
Arcane Strike
14 str
18 base dex
Alter Self
Reduce Person
+2 dex belt
2 stat ups to dex

Feats including Rapid shot, deadly aim, and Many shot

As its self buffs that would generally be up as long as you're not getting ambushed. Like literally, before walking into a dungeon cast them then dont waste time in the dungeon.

DPR that will blow Kineticists out of the water, utility that the group will love, and group buffs (Inspire courage+Good hope is about +5 atk +5 dmg for the entire party at 11 if I remember right)

Alter self and Reduce person cancel out the str bonus/penalty

The damage per arrow would be d6 +2 (str) +3 (arcane strike)+2 (good Hope)+2 (enhancement)+3 (inspire courage+6 (Deadly aim) or

d6+18

+8 BAB +7 dex +1 size +2 enhancement +3 Inspire courage +2 good hope -3 deadly aim= 20

So on a normal full attack the Bard
+20/+15 Manyshot 2d6+36 normal shot d6+18
Rapid shot in
+18/+18/+13

Average AC of CR 11 is about 25......

Bard also has option of giving the party haste, losing their first full attack, but making the group very scary.


in the campaigns i play, most min/lvl buffs only last for 2-3 encounters, certainly not for an entire dungeon, i mean even searching a room, interacting with objects, studying runes/writings/stuff/etc take a lot more than a few minutes each time. and that is without talking, like if the party starts arguing which direction to take into a split or something.

usually for us, 1st round for bard is doing nothing, just setting up the performance and casting goodhope/haste, and round 2+ is where he starts pushing damage.

although bards ARE great, the archer bard usually has a bit of a problem starting up, with no bonus feats he is stuck (if not a human) with:
lvl1 pbs,
lvl3 precise,
lvl5 rapid,
lvl7 deadly aim,
lvl9 manyshot,
lvl11clustered

he simply lacks the feats for an early working build imo, and not even space for arcane/wf/etc or for extend and other utility feats


See when we rush dungeons we have pre-agreed upon rules

dont search bodies/rooms unless necessary
always take the rightmost choice
If it's a minute/level buff cast it before combat

Also the build I described kind of requires Human to pull it off most efficiently. Rapid shot and Clustered shot, while nice, are not necessary for the build to work. Also Arcane Duelist is a good archetype if you already have a Wizard in the Party or someone else to handle Knowledge checks. An Arcane Duelist Bard still has more utility to offer a group more often than most kineticists.

So round one at level 11 would be
Beginning performance: Mov
Casting Haste or shooting maybe even a spell: Standard
Arcane Strike: Swift


while i agree that rules for dungeon running are useful, looting and searching are usually the essential points for us. i mean, apart from equip, we need to find notes, the objectives, keys, and such.

i guess it's all about group dynamics and etc, but blitzing through a dungeon to make 200% efficiency on min/lvl buffs is never our concern, we usually just try to concerve a bit power and only use them when necessary (like our stealther going a fair distance in front of us, scouting, and reporting dangers, diabling traps, other sneaky stuff, so we dont actually have to blitz or waste precious resources).

clustered shots i think is quite important to the archer, even more so now with the removal of abudant ammunition working on special material arrows


It all depends on group and what you're fighting.

If we were going to deal with a multi-floor monstrosity then yeah maybe we'd play a bit more conservative, but in my experience a lot of "dungeons" aren't all that long and rarely have much exciting loot until you reach the end.

I am, of course, talking about most Paizo designed Dungeons.


i've rarely played official paizo content, so i wouldn't know. we try to have more "realistic" dungeons (i.e. not a single straight line to the end and in there is the end dungeon boss/loot).

locked doors/hidden panels/entire hidden floors and illusions that hide the more valuable/etc things to stop our pace, as well as usually an objective as to why we are actually in the dungeon (which usually differs from "clear that place") means we have to search thourough and plan where we go, taking time out of buffs.


Insain Dragoon wrote:

Or we can compare to a level 11 Archer Bard with

The damage per arrow would be d6 +2 (str) +3 (arcane strike)+2 (good Hope)+2 (enhancement)+3 (inspire courage+6 (Deadly aim) or

d6+18

+8 BAB +7 dex +1 size +2 enhancement +3 Inspire courage +2 good hope -3 deadly aim= 20

So on a normal full attack the Bard
+20/+15 Manyshot 2d6+36 normal shot d6+18
Rapid shot in
+18/+18/+13

Average AC of CR 11 is about 25......

Bard also has option of giving the party haste, losing their first full attack, but making the group very scary.

A basic physical blast at level 11 does 6d6+6+CON mod. With a 6 mod, Deadly Aim, and Elemental Overflow damage bonus that would be 6d6+24.

With Kinetic Blade or Kinetic Whip, a full attack would be 12d6+24 (remove Deadly Aim and Overflow damage bonus from each attack). Aerokineticist can grant Haste to the entire party with Celerity, allowing for a maximum of 18d6+36 if all three attacks hit. This would not require any Burn aside from the 5 points used at the start of the day to get the bonuses for DEX, CON, and Overflow. Biggest downside is that we need to be in melee range for the max damage, but with Kinetic Whip we can extend that to 10 feet, or take it up to 15 with Kinetic Form.

Much higher damage, and for melee we'd only need Weapon Finesse. If we're willing to start committing resources we can start factoring in composite blasts, Metakinesis etc. At this level we should have 4 points to spend, or 6 with Internal Buffer. If we put the +4 Overflow bonus on Con instead of Dex we get can get 1 more point of Burn and 1 more point of damage per attack at the cost of 1 to hit.


Insaine Dragoon wrote:

So on a normal full attack the Bard

+20/+15 Manyshot 2d6+36 normal shot d6+18
Rapid shot in
+18/+18/+13

Average AC of CR 11 is about 25......

I noticed that there are no DPR calculation in your post, only random numbers that seems big. Alright, I'll do the math for you.

Rapid Shot DPR would be
(0.7*43+0.7*21.5+0.45*21.5)*1.1=60.3

with 1 round of buffing during combat (song as move + good hope as standard).
Yea, it completely blows out the no buffs 74 DPS of the kinn. Over a 4 round combat, the bard does on average 181, while the kinn does on average 296. Wanna try and guess the DPR of the kinn with the bard next to him? Try again


Dekalinder wrote:
Insaine Dragoon wrote:

So on a normal full attack the Bard

+20/+15 Manyshot 2d6+36 normal shot d6+18
Rapid shot in
+18/+18/+13

Average AC of CR 11 is about 25......

I noticed that there are no DPR calculation in your post, only random numbers that seems big. Alright, I'll do the math for you.

Rapid Shot DPR would be
(0.7*43+0.7*21.5+0.45*21.5)*1.1=60.3

with 1 round of buffing during combat (song as move + good hope as standard).
Yea, it completely blows out the no buffs 74 DPS of the kinn. Over a 4 round combat, the bard does on average 181, while the kinn does on average 296. Wanna try and guess the DPR of the kinn with the bard next to him? Try again

What would the numbers be if instead of good hope the round one buff was Haste? Since Good Hope is generally what I cast with the party rod of extend before we actually get into fights. Also I forgot to tack in this item Bracers of Falcons Aim. The attack bonus doesn't stack with inspire courage, but the 4k gold keen is really nice.

Also can I see the DPR calculations for 74? Is that for kinetic blade?

All I saw was this post

Edit: Plotted it myself

DPR with haste, no PBS: 87
With PBS and haste: 98
DPR without PBS or haste: 62
With PBS and no haste: 71

Never realized how valuable PBS was in DPR calculations 0_0
71 vs 74 is actually much more comparable in terms of what we'd see on the playing field.

In an ambush situation the Kineticist would still be pulling about 74 DPR since it's no cost right?

Same Bard gets ambushed and lets say he has no buffs up, so he spends the first round buffing the party with Inspire courage and Haste. So what's his DPR?
+8 BAB +6 dex +2 enh +1 PBS +3 inspire courage -3 DA +1 haste = +18
Damage: d6+ 2 str +2 enh +6 DA +3 IC +1 pbs +3 AS= d6+17
Full attack with rapid shot
+16 2d6+34 19-20/x3
+16/+16/+11 d6+17 19-20/3

DPR of 67 vs AC 25
For reference DPR of 48 with only performance, no haste.

At this point I am fully willing to Cede that over the course of the day the Kineticist will do more damage than an archer Bard.

So my next question is, does the Kineticist do enough damage more than the Bard to make up for the lower party DPR? If not does it at least have unique utility to bring the party ahead in a non-numerical fashion? If no to both then is the Kineticist as least high enough on the DPR spectrum to replace a full martial like the Slayer?


Insain Dragoon wrote:

[What would the numbers be if instead of good hope the round one buff was Haste? Since Good Hope is generally what I cast with the party rod of extend before we actually get into fights. Also I forgot to tack in this item Bracers of Falcons Aim. The attack bonus doesn't stack with inspire courage, but the 4k gold keen is really nice.

Also can I see the DPR calculations for 74?

All I saw was this post

That post was a comparison for non-optimized energy vs physical just to compare baseline expectation. Just the skeleton if you will. As I said before

Dekalinder wrote:
54 is the starting point, no feats aside prom PBS and precise shot, and no items aside from dex-cos belt. With +4 hit (weapon focus, size, bracer and whatever else) and improved critical your DPR gets to 74 with no burn.

This is not factoring elements specific choices (like fire extra damage) nor any kind of Infusion (like burning or AOEs). That "whatever else" could be a Cracked Pale Green Prism if no one else caste Haste.

Bard DPR with Haste & Rapid (no but no good hope)
to hit would be 18-2+1=17
Damage per shot is reduced by 2 to 19.5, 39 on the many.
+17/+17/+17/+12
DPR=(0.65*39+0.65*19.5+0.65*21+0.45*19.5)*1.2= 71.4

Much better, but still roughly the same damage and "losing" the first round of damage.

Scarab Sages

Now if you are going to compare one build with another build, then you can go an bring in an Inquisitor, a Bloodrager, a Archer Paladin. Hey, you to my Rock Thrower build if you are comparing apples to oranges.

(Sidenote: I really don't know how to calculate its DPR since it can Auto-Confirm any potential Criticals)

Spoiler:
Human Weapon Master Fighter 9
Seeker Oracle (Stone) 1
Hurler Barbarian 1

STR - 18+4+4
DEX - 15
CON - 12
INT - 8
WIS - 10
CHA - 7

BAB:+10

Damage:
Breakdown:
Attack - +26 - 8 STR + 10 BAB + 1 Weapon Focus + 4 Weapon Training + 1 Rock Throwing + 1 Boots of Speed + 1 Cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone
Damage - +18 - 8 STR + 4 .5(STR) + 2 Weapon Specialization + 4 Weapon Training

Rock - +26/+26/+21 2d4+18 (19-20/ x2; Auto-Critical; No Penalty to All Range Increment; Clustered)
Rock (Rapid Shot) - +24/+24/+24/+19 2d4+18 (19-20/ x2; Auto-Critical; No Penalty to All Range Increment; Clustered)
Rock (Deadly Aim) - +23/+23/+18 2d4+24 (19-20/ x2; Auto-Critical; No Penalty to All Range Increment; Clustered)
Rock (Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim) - +21/+21/+21/+16 2d4+24 (19-20/ x2; Auto-Critical; No Penalty to All Range Increment; Clustered)

Now if we are comparing the abilites of one Kineticist to another, then that is a different story due to their tools.

With the Aether/Air combo at 9, you can stay invisible (Telekinetic Invisibility) and spam haste all day long (Celerity).

With the Air/Earth combo, you can use Greater Windsight to get the detail of a dungeon, and then use Stone Sculptor to create you own path.

As for damage, I am uncertain on the damage output this, but would a Fire/Aether/Other be a good set for levels beyond 15?

- Use a Physical Composite Blast that has a Fire Descriptor to activate Fire's Fury
- Aetheric Boost the Composite Blast to add damage equal to the number of Dice rolled.

So at level 15, with maximum Elemental Overflow, the base would be:

16d6+16 - Base
+10 - Elemental Overflow
+16 - Aetheric Boost
+5 - Fire's Fury

16d6+47+CON


me wrote:


Same Bard gets ambushed and lets say he has no buffs up, so he spends the first round buffing the party with Inspire courage and Haste. So what's his DPR?
+8 BAB +6 dex +2 enh +1 PBS +3 inspire courage -3 DA +1 haste = +18
Damage: d6+ 2 str +2 enh +6 DA +3 IC +1 pbs +3 AS= d6+17
Full attack with rapid shot
+16 2d6+34 19-20/x3
+16/+16/+11 d6+17 19-20/3

DPR of 67 vs AC 25
For reference DPR of 48 with only performance, no haste.

At this point I am fully willing to Cede that over the course of the day the Kineticist will do more damage than an archer Bard.

So my next question is, does the Kineticist do enough damage more than the Bard to make up for the lower party DPR? If not does it at least have unique utility to bring the party ahead in a non-numerical fashion? If no to both then is the Kineticist as least high enough on the DPR spectrum to replace a full martial like the Slayer?

Sorry, I edited the quoted text in after you had seen the stuff above it. What would you say about the last paragraph?

On android there is an app called "d20 attack calc light" and it makes DPR calcs very easy.


Never take Aether in your first 2 "slots" of elements choice otherwise you will not have any composites. Actually, don't pick Aether at all if you want to use ranged blasts. Composite with Aetheric is 4 points of burn, and supernova covers only 2. You need to wait 16 to pull that combo off, and it leaves you no extra burn "free" to empower. A normal composite with empower is way better than a boosted one without empower.

Edit @ Insane Dragoon
That is too much dependant on elements choices and party composition to be correctly assessed in a vacuum. However talking only damage I think this stands true: the bard gives more to the party in terms of raw damage if you have at least other 2 martial. Things may change if you have an alternative source of haste. However, the kinn has MUCH higher nova potential if he wants to push it. This is still not accounting for AOEs since that is impossible to adjudicate in a vacuum.
Comparing the rest of the toolkit has too much variace given choices of elements, skills, ecc. ecc. Honestly, I think they are quite on par.

I will give a look at that app


Dekalinder wrote:

Never take Aether in your first 2 "slots" of elements choice otherwise you will not have any composites. Actually, don't pick Aether at all if you want to use ranged blasts. Composite with Aetheric is 4 points of burn, and supernova covers only 2. You need to wait 16 to pull that combo off, and it leaves you no extra burn "free" to empower. A normal composite with empower is way better than a boosted one without empower.

Edit @ Insane Dragoon
That is too much dependant on elements choices and party composition to be correctly assessed in a vacuum. However talking only damage I think this stands true: the bard gives more to the party in terms of raw damage if you have at least other 2 martial. Things may change if you have an alternative source of haste. However, the kinn has MUCH higher nova potential if he wants to push it. This is still not accounting for AOEs since that is impossible to adjudicate in a vacuum.
Comparing the rest of the toolkit has too much variace given choices of elements, skills, ecc. ecc. Honestly, I think they are quite on par.

I'm not too familiar with what sort of utility a higher level kineticist can do and you seem pretty well in the know compared to other posters here.

What are examples of utility, group support, or really anything besides direct damage that an 11th level Kineticist could toss around more than once per day? I saw mention of haste, so I guess how many times can they do it at level 11 and what restrictions on it assuming it has restrictions?


I cannot be exaustive but I'll give some higlight
Fire
Smoke Storm creates a 20 ft smokestick (blocks ranged attacks and hampers melee) and also sickens
Unraveling gives a targeted dispell (you can combine with Flurry of Blasts to have fun)
Water
Grease is always cool
Kinetic Healer heals for the same damage of your blast (this includes composites as far as I know) Cost 1 burn but you can supernova it after 11. It's quite broken at that point imho
Earth
Magnetic infusion basically gives +4 to hit to the rest of your weapon users
Entangling infusion entangles (dho) nice to keep some chargers out of the fight
Air is mostly self-serving, but has Magnetic infusion. I'm not well versed enaugh in Aether to give pointers since I don't like it very much. All can create walls that give covers against ranged attackers and do damage to crossing meleers.

Scarab Sages

Utility Wild Talents wrote:

Celerity

Element(s) air; Type utility (Sp); Level 3; Burn 0

You can galvanize the flow of electricity within your allies to enhance their speed. This acts as haste except it lasts for 1 round. You can accept 1 point of burn to increase the duration to 1 round per kineticist level you possess.

So as a Standard Action, you can give Haste for 1 round for 0 Burn. You can also give Haste for Rounds equal to your Kineticist level if you choose to take 1 Burn.

If you really want to go support, then you can, as a Standard Action each round, give Haste out. however, that would be basically designating you as a Buffing Cohort. You can get more bang from your buck if you were a Kineticist that had Kinetic Blade/Whip and took the Burn.

At Level 12, once you get Ride the Blast, you basically have a Self Dimension Door all day long. With Extreme Range, you can shoot a Kinetic Blast and hit the ground 480 feet away to be sent over there. Good for escaping or snatch-and-run situations.

For Earth Kineticists, Earth Glide at Level 10 is really good.

If you know that a creature can only hit once, you can ready an action to activate Kinetic Cover to basically negate the attack.

Spark of Life to create any Elemental to do your bidding.

And just because, Trail of Flames and use the Withdraw action to run everywhere on the map. =)

As for Kinetic Healer, Supercharge references Gather Power, which is only used on Blast Wild Talent. So you are unable to reduce the 1 burn, unless you buffer it.


I like the sound of Unraveling! Also several of the others. I'm sure there are more, but thank you for a list of cool highlights.

About how many times per day can a Kineticist do these?

@Cao Phen
Is it possible to Negate that burn or is that just a permanent cost? I understand the Kineticist caps out at 3+con modifier burn per day, so a few hastes seems all right.

Afraid of how it would affect your HP pool though.


Dekalinder wrote:


Kinetic Healer heals for the same damage of your blast (this includes composites as far as I know) Cost 1 burn but you can supernova it after 11. It's quite broken at that point imho

Kinetic Healer is a Utility Wild Talent, not a Blast, so cannot be reduced by Gather Power or Supercharge.

Scarab Sages

That is the main benifit for Kineticists. As long as they don't reach their Burn Cap (3+CON), they can use their Burn for their Wild Talents.

If the burn cost is 0, like a standard Fire Blast with the Unraveling Talent at Level 11 (at level 11, the Kineticist can reduce the Burn of an Infusion by 3, the same amount of burn from the Unraveling Infusion), then it can be used all day long. This means that if you can damage them with your fire damage, you can Dispel Magic.

All. Day. Long.


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When Gather Power gets "upgraded" by Supercharge loses that restriction.

Gather Power wrote:
Gathering power in this way allows the kineticist to reduce the total burn cost of a blast wild talent she uses in the same round by 1 point
Supercharge wrote:
At 11th level, when using gather power as a move action, a kineticist can reduce the total burn cost of a single wild talent by 2 points instead of 1. When using gather power for 1 full round, she can reduce the burn cost of a single wild talent by 3 points instead of 2.

Otherwise it would be called "Improved Gather Power" and would have just said "When using Gather power, Increase the burn reduction by an additional point".


Insain Dragoon wrote:

I like the sound of Unraveling! Also several of the others. I'm sure there are more, but thank you for a list of cool highlights.

About how many times per day can a Kineticist do these?

@Cao Phen
Is it possible to Negate that burn or is that just a permanent cost? I understand the Kineticist caps out at 3+con modifier burn per day, so a few hastes seems all right.

Afraid of how it would affect your HP pool though.

Unraveling cost 3 burn but is an infusion, you unlock it at level 10 and at level 11 you can use it for free without Gathering Power (that would be used to cover the empower/composite)

Free flurry + unraveling you can do it at the same level since the combined cost is 5, just enaught for Infusion Spec and supercharge since there is no point in using a composite or empowering it.

Free Haste can be achieved at level 11 as a full round action (supercharge+celerity)

11 is a big breakpoint for kinn but I want to make sure than I do not give the wrong impression. They are fine before that imho.


Cao Phen wrote:

That is the main benifit for Kineticists. As long as they don't reach their Burn Cap (3+CON), they can use their Burn for their Wild Talents.

If the burn cost is 0, like a standard Fire Blast with the Unraveling Talent at Level 11 (at level 11, the Kineticist can reduce the Burn of an Infusion by 3, the same amount of burn from the Unraveling Infusion), then it can be used all day long. This means that if you can damage them with your fire damage, you can Dispel Magic.

All. Day. Long.

Actually Unraveling Infusion just needs to hit, nothing in there says you need to damage to dispel.

I'm trying to find the part that says Energy Blasts are blocked by SPell resistance. DId they remove it? Thank god.


No is still there. Blasts are SLA so they get SR without having to say it. Physical however have an exemption

You can use unraveling on a "normal" simple blast to deal some decent damage (around 40 I think eyeballing) and dispelling in the same turn, or flurry to sacrifice damage to use multiple dispells (or getting a big bonus on the dispell check)


Dekalinder wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:

I like the sound of Unraveling! Also several of the others. I'm sure there are more, but thank you for a list of cool highlights.

About how many times per day can a Kineticist do these?

@Cao Phen
Is it possible to Negate that burn or is that just a permanent cost? I understand the Kineticist caps out at 3+con modifier burn per day, so a few hastes seems all right.

Afraid of how it would affect your HP pool though.

Unraveling cost 3 burn but is an infusion, you unlock it at level 10 and at level 11 you can use it for free without Gathering Power (that would be used to cover the empower/composite)

Free flurry + unraveling you can do it at the same level since the combined cost is 5, just enaught for Infusion Spec and supercharge since there is no point in using a composite or empowering it.

Free Haste can be achieved at level 11 as a full round action (supercharge+celerity)

11 is a big breakpoint for kinn but I want to make sure than I do not give the wrong impression. They are fine before that imho.

A lot of classes really hit their stride in a good way between 9 and 12, so a Kineticist getting huge boons at 11 sounds about right.


Dekalinder wrote:

No is still there. Physical however do not have that restriction

You can use unraveling on a "normal" simple blast to deal some decent damage (around 40 I think eyeballing) and dispelling in the same turn, or flurry to sacrifice damage to use multiple dispells (or getting a big bonus on the dispell check)

I can't seem to find the text actually stating you need to make a SR check though.

All I can find is a few talents that say if you pass SR and the text saying Physical blasts ignore SR, but nothing stating that Energy Blasts must bypass SR.

Seems implied that SR is a thing, but I am really hoping it's not. I remember there was a solid page of feedback during the playtest saying it made no sense for Spell resistance to be another defense against energy blasts considering they were already pretty gimped by a second level spell.

*BBEG: Oh soon I shall be assualted by the party of adventurers! One of them is a renowned Kineticist who sprays lightning storms from their fingertips! Oh how shall I fight them?

*Laughs as they cast Resist energy Lightning for 10, 20, or 30 Lightning Energy Resistance*
*To be extra mean they cast Protection from energy lightning since it's a small dent to spells known or to war funds*


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I edited for clarity, sorry.

Quote:

*BBEG: Oh soon I shall be assualted by the party of adventurers! One of them is a renowned Kineticist who sprays lightning storms from their fingertips! Oh how shall I fight them?

*Laughs as they cast Resist energy Lightning for 10, 20, or 30 Lightning Energy Resistance*
*To be extra mean they cast Protection from energy lightning since it's a small dent to spells known or to war funds*

Oh well, time to whip out my
Quote:

Sandstorm Blast

Element(s) air and earth; Type composite blast (Sp); Level —; Burn 2

Prerequisite(s): air blast, earth blast

Blast Type: physical; Damage piercing and slashing

You use your air to churn up sand, firing a flensing gust at a foe.

Du Du Du Du

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