Kineticist damage?


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Hyamda wrote:

Personally I had reserves when the book came out. Not seeing an item we all discussed as being necessary(basically am enhancement bonus to attack and damge of wild blast) made me believe my 13 level arther kineticst I was playing in Mummy's Mask would lose even more damage(doing on average 75 DPR with the playtest options) but saturday I finally was capable of playing her and see what was. The result? 150 DPR average, never missing a single attack and upping the damage when using telekinesis due to Mobile Blast free save or take damage each round. As for burn, I could constantly maximise Disintegration blast by spending a move actionl for 16d6+16+22(con)+20(overflow).

As for the dilemma with the archer bard my answer is creature with reach.

Ummm, I'm kind of confused how you're getting both your damage for and maximizing Disintegrating Blast as a move action without taking burn every round.

Damage - Double a simple energy blast's damage (which is what Force does) at level 13 = 14d6+Con+16 (that's with Max burn bonuses at that level)

Burn required - 2 (Force Composite Blast) + 2 (Maximize) + 4 (Disintegrating Blast) = 8

Reduction Available at 13 - 2 (Supercharge Move) + 3 (Infusion Specialist) (Note, if you spend a Full round Gathering Power beforehand, you can actually do a fully Maximized Disintegrating Blast for free)

I'm all for the Kineticist, but that's not being calculated correctly.


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Can we PLEASE stop using the argument that being able to blast all day is this huge balancing factor? NO ONE HAS COMBAT ALL DAY. The system is not built around that assumption. Your combat options only have to last through the combats in a given day. Doing piddly damage is not made up for by the argument that "Hey guys, if we have to have 16 combats today, I'll be marginally more useful by comparison!"

The class has a lot of flavor. The class has a lot of blasting focus (I'm looking at you, pyrokineticists). The class is undertuned. Not to the level some complain about, but enough that it shows. Burn costs are nearly universally too high, and damage scales very poorly.


MeanMutton wrote:
Casual Viking wrote:


Besides, I can get 12d6+22 at level 6 from hardcovers alone.

Details, please.

Sorcerer 6, Bloodline: Draconic (Red)

Race: Gnome with Pyromaniac (APG)
Feats: Spell Focus, Spell Specialization
Traits: Gifted Adept (APG), Missionary (APG)

CL 6 + 1 race + 2 feats + 2 traits (not "Trait bonus", just bonus from traits)= 11, and we're at 12d6+12 for Scorching Ray. The last 10 points come from spending a move action with a Goblin Fire Drum (UE).

You could add in Varisian Tattoo in the last feat slot, it's from a hard cover but that hardcover is the ISWG. You could also add another 12 points of damage from the Cross-blooded archetype.


Casual Viking wrote:
Traits: Gifted Adept (APG), Missionary (APG)

The trait you're looking for is Lore Seeker, not Missionary. The latter only works for divine casters, the former is for arcane.

I would note that adding more to Scorching Ray's CL does nothing. Essentially, advancing Scorching Ray further would require you to access metamagic feats, which would lock out use of your drum due to action economy... In effect, while you get more spells and of higher levels, your build's resources for the first six levels went to a spell that dead ended. Meanwhile, the kineticist's damage continues to scale non linearly by level, and he picks up neat little options usable pretty much at will such as TK Invis or Celerity.

Adding even one level to the comparison gives the Scorching Ray caster nothing save a feat and more casts per day, while the Kineticist gains Composite Blasts, another talent, and more damage. An Empowered Physical Composite Blast, for example, does 12d6+33 assuming level of 7, Con 22, Deadly Aim, and full Elemental Overflow benefit. So which does more, blaster caster or kineticist, depends entirely on the level break points, in much the same way as a Wizard looking better than a Sorcerer at odd level breaks.

Or at least, that's been my initial examination of the class...


Ryzoken wrote:
Casual Viking wrote:
Traits: Gifted Adept (APG), Missionary (APG)

The trait you're looking for is Lore Seeker, not Missionary. The latter only works for divine casters, the former is for arcane.

I would note that adding more to Scorching Ray's CL does nothing. Essentially, advancing Scorching Ray further would require you to access metamagic feats, which would lock out use of your drum due to action economy... In effect, while you get more spells and of higher levels, your build's resources for the first six levels went to a spell that dead ended. Meanwhile, the kineticist's damage continues to scale non linearly by level, and he picks up neat little options usable pretty much at will such as TK Invis or Celerity.

True, which is why I was initially comparing a more moderate investment yielding 8d6+8 at level 6, the full monty is not a reasonable comparison.


Rhedyn wrote:
CupcakeNautilus wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:

I'm trying to figure out how op a telekinetic is with telekinetic haul. Which increases your blast weight to 100 pounds per level or 1000 pounds per level with 1 burn.

No chart for damage sadly.

Edit: based on the telekinesis spell we are looking at 800d6 damage for 1 burn at level 20.

"you can throw an object weighing up to 100 pounds per kineticist level you possess, but this doesn’t increase the damage."
of the blast, but you don't have to do blast damage you can just do object thrown damage.

Maybe, but unless you have the Extreme Range, that's a rather slow throw, and even with extreme range, it's still a pretty slow throw. Dropping an object would do more damage I'd think, but that'd require a lot of skill... maybe some Aether Invisibility on the boulder, so nobody sees it coming? :P


Sphynx wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
CupcakeNautilus wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:

I'm trying to figure out how op a telekinetic is with telekinetic haul. Which increases your blast weight to 100 pounds per level or 1000 pounds per level with 1 burn.

No chart for damage sadly.

Edit: based on the telekinesis spell we are looking at 800d6 damage for 1 burn at level 20.

"you can throw an object weighing up to 100 pounds per kineticist level you possess, but this doesn’t increase the damage."
of the blast, but you don't have to do blast damage you can just do object thrown damage.
Maybe, but unless you have the Extreme Range, that's a rather slow throw, and even with extreme range, it's still a pretty slow throw. Dropping an object would do more damage I'd think, but that'd require a lot of skill... maybe some Aether Invisibility on the boulder, so nobody sees it coming? :P

Regardless, throwing around 100lb/level and 1000lb/level objects gets very dangerous very fast.

Btw the telekinetic blast has a throw option where you do improvised weapon damage, making the thrown car both very fast and very accurate.


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This brings up a few questions for me. Say i happen to be carrying around a boulder, a new boulder every level that is about equal to my level x 100. (its a cultural thing in my tribe, i get defensive when questioned about it) I drop this on someone, are there any rules to cover how that works or is it entirely GM fiat? likewise i just smashed a boulder/dresser/table against someone, have i also created difficult terrain or set up cover? Could you trigger a cave in like scenario with a flimsy crate of gravel? Damage aside, a telekinetic has an amazing ability to induce GM headaches.

Sovereign Court

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When you said it's a cultural thing I saw a tribe of gnomes geokenetics chipping away on boulders just "getting rid of everything that wasn't a rock I could lift"

Scarab Sages

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I was thinking of halflings with lead sheets, myself.

Dark Archive

someweirdguy wrote:
Hyamda wrote:

Personally I had reserves when the book came out. Not seeing an item we all discussed as being necessary(basically am enhancement bonus to attack and damge of wild blast) made me believe my 13 level arther kineticst I was playing in Mummy's Mask would lose even more damage(doing on average 75 DPR with the playtest options) but saturday I finally was capable of playing her and see what was. The result? 150 DPR average, never missing a single attack and upping the damage when using telekinesis due to Mobile Blast free save or take damage each round. As for burn, I could constantly maximise Disintegration blast by spending a move actionl for 16d6+16+22(con)+20(overflow).

As for the dilemma with the archer bard my answer is creature with reach.

Ummm, I'm kind of confused how you're getting both your damage for and maximizing Disintegrating Blast as a move action without taking burn every round.

Damage - Double a simple energy blast's damage (which is what Force does) at level 13 = 14d6+Con+16 (that's with Max burn bonuses at that level)

Burn required - 2 (Force Composite Blast) + 2 (Maximize) + 4 (Disintegrating Blast) = 8

Reduction Available at 13 - 2 (Supercharge Move) + 3 (Infusion Specialist) (Note, if you spend a Full round Gathering Power beforehand, you can actually do a fully Maximized Disintegrating Blast for free)

I'm all for the Kineticist, but that's not being calculated correctly.

Oh ya, we did get some levels in before I started experimenting with disintegrate... totally forgot to mention that so my bad. Level was 15 but that wouldn't compensate for the extra 1 burn >.>.... my GM will tear me a new one if he sees this thread ...keep it on the down low please? ^^;


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Dropping a boulder on someone would, quite naturally, make use of the falling object rules.

If you hurl it, you use your blast damage, per the rules of the kineticist class.


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Ravingdork wrote:

Dropping a boulder on someone would, quite naturally, make use of the falling object rules.

If you hurl it, you use your blast damage, per the rules of the kineticist class.

Well that blows the whole idea out of the water. Google-Fu tells me "The true cubic footage weights are 145-160 pounds per cubic foot, for solid unbroken stone" a medium sized space is 125 cubic feet. So you need a 18,125 pound block to deal a 3D6 drop. Assuming the block drops at least 30 feet meaning you take a -2 on your attack for being beyond the first range increment of a falling object. Getting a 4D6 drop requires a stone of 145,000 pounds. Though at this point if you hit something of a smaller size than the stone there should be a rule to just squish it but that is entirely GM fiat and actually against the listed rules. On the plus side, my characters will feel damned heroic for shrugging off a mountain falling on them. how hard do you swing a mace again?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Torbyne wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Dropping a boulder on someone would, quite naturally, make use of the falling object rules.

If you hurl it, you use your blast damage, per the rules of the kineticist class.

Well that blows the whole idea out of the water. Google-Fu tells me "The true cubic footage weights are 145-160 pounds per cubic foot, for solid unbroken stone" a medium sized space is 125 cubic feet. So you need a 18,125 pound block to deal a 3D6 drop. Assuming the block drops at least 30 feet meaning you take a -2 on your attack for being beyond the first range increment of a falling object. Getting a 4D6 drop requires a stone of 145,000 pounds. Though at this point if you hit something of a smaller size than the stone there should be a rule to just squish it but that is entirely GM fiat and actually against the listed rules. On the plus side, my characters will feel damned heroic for shrugging off a mountain falling on them. how hard do you swing a mace again?

I'm pretty sure a Medium object doesn't need to be a 5' cube, just approximately the size of a person. Now, rock is about three times as dense as a person, so you're still looking at a ~600 pound rock for a Medium object. Going by doubling in size is going up one size category, you'd need 4800 pounds for Large(4d6), about 38,000 pounds for Huge(6d6), and much much more for bigger.


Depends on the level, but a lv1 Barbarian two-handing it with 20 Str, Rage, and Power attack is 1d8+10+3. Add Wild Rager for a second attack. :)


ryric wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Dropping a boulder on someone would, quite naturally, make use of the falling object rules.

If you hurl it, you use your blast damage, per the rules of the kineticist class.

Well that blows the whole idea out of the water. Google-Fu tells me "The true cubic footage weights are 145-160 pounds per cubic foot, for solid unbroken stone" a medium sized space is 125 cubic feet. So you need a 18,125 pound block to deal a 3D6 drop. Assuming the block drops at least 30 feet meaning you take a -2 on your attack for being beyond the first range increment of a falling object. Getting a 4D6 drop requires a stone of 145,000 pounds. Though at this point if you hit something of a smaller size than the stone there should be a rule to just squish it but that is entirely GM fiat and actually against the listed rules. On the plus side, my characters will feel damned heroic for shrugging off a mountain falling on them. how hard do you swing a mace again?
I'm pretty sure a Medium object doesn't need to be a 5' cube, just approximately the size of a person. Now, rock is about three times as dense as a person, so you're still looking at a ~600 pound rock for a Medium object. Going by doubling in size is going up one size category, you'd need 4800 pounds for Large(4d6), about 38,000 pounds for Huge(6d6), and much much more for bigger.

Or you could just use blast damage for substantially higher damage.

Scarab Sages

Remember that those damages are doubled if you drop them from 150' up.


ryric wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Dropping a boulder on someone would, quite naturally, make use of the falling object rules.

If you hurl it, you use your blast damage, per the rules of the kineticist class.

Well that blows the whole idea out of the water. Google-Fu tells me "The true cubic footage weights are 145-160 pounds per cubic foot, for solid unbroken stone" a medium sized space is 125 cubic feet. So you need a 18,125 pound block to deal a 3D6 drop. Assuming the block drops at least 30 feet meaning you take a -2 on your attack for being beyond the first range increment of a falling object. Getting a 4D6 drop requires a stone of 145,000 pounds. Though at this point if you hit something of a smaller size than the stone there should be a rule to just squish it but that is entirely GM fiat and actually against the listed rules. On the plus side, my characters will feel damned heroic for shrugging off a mountain falling on them. how hard do you swing a mace again?
I'm pretty sure a Medium object doesn't need to be a 5' cube, just approximately the size of a person. Now, rock is about three times as dense as a person, so you're still looking at a ~600 pound rock for a Medium object. Going by doubling in size is going up one size category, you'd need 4800 pounds for Large(4d6), about 38,000 pounds for Huge(6d6), and much much more for bigger.

While its a good point that it doesnt need to be a full 5 foot cube, i am still coming up with 24 cubic feet for an average person, with average weight rock that is over 3,400 pounds for a medium rock, 27,800 for a large.

Still, couple with a Pit conjuration specialist. get lots of distance and your large rock completely covers the pit space, guaranteed hit. it should be the players turning the old "rocks fall, everyone dies" back on the GM.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:
Bloodrealm wrote:
I wish people would stop making new threads about their misconceptions about Kineticists being pure blasters and instead read the existing threads.
The thing is, that's the best thing they're really suited for. If you're not Water or Aether, there's not much utility, and not many good control options that don't cost you a ton of Burn until higher levels.

Sorcerers and Wizards have a limited resource in terms of spell slots. With Kineticists however as long as the Burn is kept to zero, nothing stops them from literally spamming that damage all day long. So the balancing factor is that the turn by turn damage is indeed less. You do however have nova options when they are needed.


If you don't like the class, don't play it. Arguing about how it's broken because it doesn't meet your needs isn't helpful.

Triune wrote:
Can we PLEASE stop using the argument that being able to blast all day is this huge balancing factor? NO ONE HAS COMBAT ALL DAY. The system is not built around that assumption. Your combat options only have to last through the combats in a given day.

The system may not be built around that assumption, but I've had several games that have had that. In some cases there was external time pressure. In others we had the option to rest, but chose to go on to prevent giving the bad guys time to rebuild. In another, the bad guys were chasing us and tracking us down to try and kill us. They weren't going to stop just because it was 5 o'clock.

In one case, we had a battle where we were staying in combat time for over five minutes. We weren't fighting every round, but there were enough bad guys around that we staying in rounds. It took about twelve hours real time.

At low levels, being able to go all day long is huge. Most spellcasters can't get through 4 encounters without resorting to bad crossbow shots.

This is really dependent on the GM. If your GM is the kind who does fewer encounters a day, then go for a class that can nova. But if you have GM's that throw endurance matches on you, then you build characters around that, and kineticist is one option. (heck the regenerating temp hp of the Aetherkineticist are awesome for that.)


Welcome to Book X of <insert AP name here>! Now you get to do your second multiple story dungeon crawl! The first one was back in book 2, now it's book X and you're Y level, so you'll be facing five full sprawling dungeon levels with room after room of enemies! Oh, and three traps. But tons and tons of stuff that's utterly uninterested in talking to you beyond feints and taunts. Roll for your first initiative of the night, but keep that die handy, since we'll be rolling new inits in every room and hallway!

The above is not hyperbole, by and large. There is seriously a book in one of the APs that opens on a five floor dungeon complex. There's a fight in nearly every room with creatures that do not care who you are or what you want, they just want your stuff so they might escape their prison. That or they are under orders to kill interlopers.

Longetivity matters, on occasion.


Why I'm still trying to continue this argument is beyond me...

Rynjin wrote:


...No. You don't have "more than double the number of Composite Blasts". You have HALF THE NUMBER OF COMPOSITE BLASTS. One. One from the feat, rather than one from each Kineticist.

I did mention at the start that I haven't actually used Kineticist, and I'm just theorising. I'm happy to admit ignorance in this aspect.

By what I was saying before, you have access to more than double the types of composite blast, since you can effectively have 4 elements to pick from. I see what you're saying, and I'm sorry for not being clearer there.

You've made me realise that the feat's not well defined for this instance. The Monk's providing the form infusion while readying and the kineticist's performing the blast action... but does that mean that the monk is the point of origin on the blast, or is it the kineticist? I can see the argument both ways, now you're clearer yourself.
Using the Kinetic fist example, the way the feat's written, if you're not next to each other, the effect appears somewhere in the middle; basically, some non-person is getting a bonus to unarmed/natural attack damage. I'd just been assuming that the person providing the personal only effect of the form infusion had been getting the benefits, which probably explains why we're disagreeing. Could be you're right, in which case, yes, this feat is useless in this case.
Also realising that the kinetic blade trick definitely doesn't work, since you can't get it to have things like the monk special property, which is the reason I'd thought it was good. (sorry about that)

Mostly I have been looking at the feat as a way to massively decrease burn, yes. Repeating that I haven't actually used the class, I can see burn being a major issue in an extended day.

Some examples:

Since you're asking for something:
Let's take your first example, where we need an AoE quickly, and preferably something that will hold things in place. For convenience, we'll assume that both kineticists are good pals and tend to go on the same initiative:
We'll use the Cloud Form Infusion, costing 4 burn to Kineticist A. This is a 7th level infusion, so A needs to be at least level 14, meaning Infusion Specialisation has hit 4. A doesn't need to provide any more infusions, so this is free.
You also use the Grappling Substance Infusion, costing 3 burn to Kineticist B. If we're considering a standard party where everyone is of the same level, this is a free infusion for B as well.
A isn't suffering any burn from this so far, and can gather energy, so A does so, and since they have supercharge, they can reduce burn by a further 2. Basically, a free maximise on the blast. If they want to spend some burn, it's only 1 to empower it as well, or to quicken it instead and use another blast in the same turn.
Damage: Average level is 14, so that's maximised 14d6/4 = 21, and potential grapple. Damage isn't great, but cloud damage isn't great anyway. But since it's maximised, you're getting 42 damage each round afterwards. Note that this assumes that for some reason your Con modifier is 0.
Performing the same thing solo instead costs 3 from infusions and 2 from a composite blast, totalling 5 burn. If it's necessary one kineticist can pull this off themselves at an earlier initiative count just to get them trapped initially, and then use a stronger one later.
Alternatively, A quickens the composite blast for 1 burn, and then pulls out some other thing. Say a simple extended entangling blast on one of them that hasn't been grappled, which they can do for no burn (assuming they can hit through the fog cloud). Or does the same thing again if for some reason it got messed up the first time, maybe because of dispel or unknown resistances.

Another example:
It's not totally clear who would control it, but if we assume it's just one kineticist, and that each kineticist can control one:
We've got a lower level group this time, and they're doing a dungeon crawl. They're level 9, so they've got 4th level infusions (I was going to go lower level, but the example I wanted wouldn't work that way). They've got Infusion Specialisation 2.
It's going to be an extended thing, so at the start of the dungeon they do this:
Kineticist A gathers power for a full round, and then uses the mobile blast form infusion. The burn cost for this is negated by infusion specialisation. Kineticist B uses some substance infusion; which one it is doesn't matter since it's always offset by infusion specialisation, but for practical purposes call it entangling.
Since A has gathered power and because he can, he maximises and empowers the blast. A now has a maximised composite mobile entangling blast that will last forever. Repeat so B has the same. Assuming no Con modifier again, this is at minimum maximised 10d6/4 = 15 damage, usual with extra damage from empower and it entangles things. The practical aspects of this I'm sure you can see.
It is impossible for a solo kineticist of this level to produce this effect; it's not until 14th level that this is possible.

I was going to do an even lower level example, but then I did the numbers and realised that it's not actually that great at lower levels. At level 5, you're better off working solo, unless for some reason you really want/need two 2nd level infusions on a blast.

Primarily, however, the feat extends your resources a lot, and in some cases can produce effects that you can't otherwise do for a long time. It's a definite must if for some strange reason you have 2 overwhelming soul kineticists in the party, or if your DM likes long, long dungeon crawls.
Particularly when you've got Quicken Metakinesis, it starts getting good, when you're able to pump out strong blasts for minimal burn, and potentially fix any 'mistakes' of monsters that were missed without needing to spend even more.
Looks to me like it'd even work on Double Blasts, although I haven't gone through and tested just how good that would be yet.

Sorry, that's a long post. And probably loaded with glaring errors. And maybe off-track for increasing kineticist's damage. Probably helps it a little.


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Torbyne wrote:
ryric wrote:


I'm pretty sure a Medium object doesn't need to be a 5' cube, just approximately the size of a person. Now, rock is about three times as dense as a person, so you're still looking at a ~600 pound rock for a Medium object. Going by doubling in size is going up one size category, you'd need 4800 pounds for Large(4d6), about 38,000 pounds for Huge(6d6), and much much more for bigger.

While its a good point that it doesnt need to be a full 5 foot cube, i am still coming up with 24 cubic feet for an average person, with average weight rock that is over 3,400 pounds for a medium rock, 27,800 for a large.

24 cubic feet? A cubic foot is about 3*3*3 liters, or 27 liters. 3 cubic feet is 81 liters, that's 81 kilograms of water, that sounds about right considering humans are slightly less dense than water. So, about 3 cubic feet for a human.


I'm not really sure I'm impressed with the argument that if you design a campaign explicitly to play to the kineticist's strengths at the expense of the rest of the party that the kineticist... still ends up being worse off than its immediate competition but can be at least moderately effective.

That's just not very stellar praise. A class shouldn't need a bunch of abnormal campaign assumptions just so it can be almost competent.


swoosh wrote:
That's just not very stellar praise. A class shouldn't need a bunch of abnormal campaign assumptions just so it can be almost competent.

Not optimized is almost competent? That's an abnormal campaign assumption right there.

=====

Other reasons to play a kineticist. And yes these are corner cases.

One person in my gaming group is legally blind. She prefers not having to do extensive resource tracking.

When different players optimize to different levels, it can be better for the optimizing player to start with a less-effective class and the non-optimizers to take a more-effective class. This leads to table parity.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Torbyne wrote:
While its a good point that it doesnt need to be a full 5 foot cube, i am still coming up with 24 cubic feet for an average person...

Generally, a human being falls within 2-5 cubic feet in volume, with most being on the lower end of that spectrum.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
While its a good point that it doesnt need to be a full 5 foot cube, i am still coming up with 24 cubic feet for an average person...
Generally, a human being falls within 2-5 cubic feet in volume, with most being on the lower end of that spectrum.

As opposed to many gamers who tend towards the upper end. :)


Philo Pharynx wrote:
swoosh wrote:
That's just not very stellar praise. A class shouldn't need a bunch of abnormal campaign assumptions just so it can be almost competent.

Not optimized is almost competent? That's an abnormal campaign assumption right there.

=====

Other reasons to play a kineticist. And yes these are corner cases.

One person in my gaming group is legally blind. She prefers not having to do extensive resource tracking.

When different players optimize to different levels, it can be better for the optimizing player to start with a less-effective class and the non-optimizers to take a more-effective class. This leads to table parity.

So you're acknowledging it's a less effective class. Good. You can stop pretending to disagree and everyone can move on now.


Casual Viking wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
ryric wrote:


I'm pretty sure a Medium object doesn't need to be a 5' cube, just approximately the size of a person. Now, rock is about three times as dense as a person, so you're still looking at a ~600 pound rock for a Medium object. Going by doubling in size is going up one size category, you'd need 4800 pounds for Large(4d6), about 38,000 pounds for Huge(6d6), and much much more for bigger.

While its a good point that it doesnt need to be a full 5 foot cube, i am still coming up with 24 cubic feet for an average person, with average weight rock that is over 3,400 pounds for a medium rock, 27,800 for a large.

24 cubic feet? A cubic foot is about 3*3*3 liters, or 27 liters. 3 cubic feet is 81 liters, that's 81 kilograms of water, that sounds about right considering humans are slightly less dense than water. So, about 3 cubic feet for a human.

I am not sure what i am missing here, i am attempting to model to approximate size of a human as the "standard" medium size. To do that i assume a cubic space of 2' x 2' x 6', this is where i get the 24 cubic foot space a human occupies. i then compare that the average weight of a cubic foot volume of stone, 145 pounds. fix my math?


Ravingdork wrote:

Dropping a boulder on someone would, quite naturally, make use of the falling object rules.

If you hurl it, you use your blast damage, per the rules of the kineticist class.

The telekinetic blast can also be use to throw an improvised weapon using con instead of str for damage. So you do improvised weapon damage for an object that size.

How much does a colossal sling do?

Edit: roughly 18d6 by level 10 (1024 lbs). The doubling would cause it to increase slower than using telekinesis spell estimates (1d6 per 25lbs)


Dekalinder wrote:
MeanMutton wrote:
Casual Viking wrote:


Besides, I can get 12d6+22 at level 6 from hardcovers alone.

Details, please.
If I'd had to wager, Gravity Bow BAB 6 rapid shot and manyshot, assuming all hits. Basically a standard ranger after 1 round of buffs. But on the same hand, we all know that archery is broken right at level 6, since it rougly deals the same damage at level 10.

I thought he was talking about a sorcerer build.


Flame Effigy wrote:
Do you really want every new class to be as good as a sorcerer/wizard?

YES!

And all of the old classes too.


Triune wrote:
Can we PLEASE stop using the argument that being able to blast all day is this huge balancing factor? NO ONE HAS COMBAT ALL DAY. The system is not built around that assumption. Your combat options only have to last through the combats in a given day. Doing piddly damage is not made up for by the argument that "Hey guys, if we have to have 16 combats today, I'll be marginally more useful by comparison!"

The system ABSOLUTELY was built around that assumption. That's not, however, how the game has been played for the past 20 or so years.


Rhedyn wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Dropping a boulder on someone would, quite naturally, make use of the falling object rules.

If you hurl it, you use your blast damage, per the rules of the kineticist class.

The telekinetic blast can also be use to throw an improvised weapon using con instead of str for damage. So you do improvised weapon damage for an object that size.

How much does a colossal sling do?

Based on that, i'd say 6D8 is the best you can get for a colossal improvised greatclub stand in. 8D8 for a Kaiju sized improvised greatclub?


Torbyne wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Dropping a boulder on someone would, quite naturally, make use of the falling object rules.

If you hurl it, you use your blast damage, per the rules of the kineticist class.

The telekinetic blast can also be use to throw an improvised weapon using con instead of str for damage. So you do improvised weapon damage for an object that size.

How much does a colossal sling do?

Based on that, i'd say 6D8 is the best you can get for a colossal improvised greatclub stand in. 8D8 for a Kaiju sized improvised greatclub?

You end up throwing weapons far larger than merely colossal. If we use sling as base and go off bullet weight then we can increase the damage after doubling the weight one step as per improved natural attack feat which stops at 12d6. But if we assume every increase after that is only a 2d6 increase, then we can keep scaling the damage for size.

Scarab Sages

Rhedyn wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Dropping a boulder on someone would, quite naturally, make use of the falling object rules.

If you hurl it, you use your blast damage, per the rules of the kineticist class.

The telekinetic blast can also be use to throw an improvised weapon using con instead of str for damage. So you do improvised weapon damage for an object that size.

How much does a colossal sling do?

Edit: roughly 14d6 by level 10 (1024 lbs). The doubling would cause it to increase slower than using telekinesis spell estimates (1d6 per 25lbs)

Where are you getting 14d6 from? Based on the Size FAQ, a colossal sling would do 3d8.

1d4 Medium > 1d6 Large > 1d10 Huge > 2d8 Gargantuan > 3d8 Colossal

If you threw a greatclub, it would be 6d8
1d10 Medium > 2d8 Large > 3d8 Huge > 4d8 Gargantuan > 6d8 Colossal


Imbicatus wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

Dropping a boulder on someone would, quite naturally, make use of the falling object rules.

If you hurl it, you use your blast damage, per the rules of the kineticist class.

The telekinetic blast can also be use to throw an improvised weapon using con instead of str for damage. So you do improvised weapon damage for an object that size.

How much does a colossal sling do?

Edit: roughly 14d6 by level 10 (1024 lbs). The doubling would cause it to increase slower than using telekinesis spell estimates (1d6 per 25lbs)

Where are you getting 14d6 from? Based on the Size FAQ, a colossal sling would do 3d8.

1d4 Medium > 1d6 Large > 1d10 Huge > 2d8 Gargantuan > 3d8 Colossal

If you threw a greatclub, it would be 6d8
1d10 Medium > 2d8 Large > 3d8 Huge > 4d8 Gargantuan > 6d8 Colossal

by that chart a 1024lbs rock would do 20d8 damage. (12d8 plus 4 more steps)


where are you getting a 12D8 rock from?


LazarX wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Bloodrealm wrote:
I wish people would stop making new threads about their misconceptions about Kineticists being pure blasters and instead read the existing threads.
The thing is, that's the best thing they're really suited for. If you're not Water or Aether, there's not much utility, and not many good control options that don't cost you a ton of Burn until higher levels.
Sorcerers and Wizards have a limited resource in terms of spell slots. With Kineticists however as long as the Burn is kept to zero, nothing stops them from literally spamming that damage all day long. So the balancing factor is that the turn by turn damage is indeed less. You do however have nova options when they are needed.

this only makes sense if it would cone up. It is like saying an archer would run out of arrows.


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Philo Pharynx wrote:

If you don't like the class, don't play it. Arguing about how it's broken because it doesn't meet your needs isn't helpful.

Triune wrote:
Can we PLEASE stop using the argument that being able to blast all day is this huge balancing factor? NO ONE HAS COMBAT ALL DAY. The system is not built around that assumption. Your combat options only have to last through the combats in a given day.

The system may not be built around that assumption, but I've had several games that have had that. In some cases there was external time pressure. In others we had the option to rest, but chose to go on to prevent giving the bad guys time to rebuild. In another, the bad guys were chasing us and tracking us down to try and kill us. They weren't going to stop just because it was 5 o'clock.

In one case, we had a battle where we were staying in combat time for over five minutes. We weren't fighting every round, but there were enough bad guys around that we staying in rounds. It took about twelve hours real time.

At low levels, being able to go all day long is huge. Most spellcasters can't get through 4 encounters without resorting to bad crossbow shots.

This is really dependent on the GM. If your GM is the kind who does fewer encounters a day, then go for a class that can nova. But if you have GM's that throw endurance matches on you, then you build characters around that, and kineticist is one option. (heck the regenerating temp hp of the Aetherkineticist are awesome for that.)

Ah yes, the old "I can find an outlier, therefore it's not bad" argumemt. Look, any option can shine in some extreme circumstance. That doesn't mean it doesn't suck. A class should be generally useful, not useful in only one percent of campaigns. The fact is any 3/4 bab class with buffs that last minutes per level (look it up, there are a bunch) will outperform the kineticist even in your examples. Heck, I once played an inquisitor in a five minute in game combat scenario, and he put out way better numbers than a kineticist could have. He could last about 10 combats a day.

People are not complaining about nova inability. They're complaining that you have to get to about the 8 combat a day mark before the class is even marginally competetive. Despite your experience, that is not characteristic of normal play.

The point is that the niche of the kineticist is way too extreme for what it pays. I understand liking the class. Heck, I like the class thematically. But don't let your love of the class and some dogmatic Paizo defending blind you, the class is undertuned. Paizo can make mistakes (prone shooter) and overvalue abilities (sneak attack). This is just another example.


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The Kineticist, oddly enough, does not have "nova inability".

The Kineticist can nova like a m*!~&!+$&~+&. ONCE.

Then he's down like 100 HP for the rest of the day and squishier than the Wizard.

The Kineticist, in many ways, is a fan of the 15 minute adventuring day more than most classes who can "nova". An Alchemist who blew all his Bombs in one combat is still a badass Dex based killing machine, for exampe. He just can't AoE any more.

When the Kineticist uses all his Burn in a single combat, he's a mediocre combatant for the rest of the day, and he's even weaker than he STARTED the day because he has a lower maximum HP.


Torbyne wrote:
where are you getting a 12D8 rock from?

doubling the weight of a medium bullet 7 times. Then 4 more times to get to 1024 bls and 20d8


Rynjin wrote:

The Kineticist, oddly enough, does not have "nova inability".

The Kineticist can nova like a m~+!@++$~!+@. ONCE.

Then he's down like 100 HP for the rest of the day and squishier than the Wizard.

The Kineticist, in many ways, is a fan of the 15 minute adventuring day more than most classes who can "nova". An Alchemist who blew all his Bombs in one combat is still a badass Dex based killing machine, for exampe. He just can't AoE any more.

When the Kineticist uses all his Burn in a single combat, he's a mediocre combatant for the rest of the day, and he's even weaker than he STARTED the day because he has a lower maximum HP.

You get tons of reduction for blast talents. I'm more concerned about the no reduction for utility talents. But those burn prices seem to be reletively tame. Getting more burn than your elemental overflow bonuses should probably be avoided.


Rhedyn wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
where are you getting a 12D8 rock from?
doubling the weight of a medium bullet 7 times. Then 4 more times to get to 1024 bls and 20d8

A musket bullet? i dont think you can mimic the damage of ammunition like that. likewise for arrows or sling stones, throwing them without the launcher basically removes all their damage potential.


Torbyne wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
where are you getting a 12D8 rock from?
doubling the weight of a medium bullet 7 times. Then 4 more times to get to 1024 bls and 20d8
A musket bullet? i dont think you can mimic the damage of ammunition like that. likewise for arrows or sling stones, throwing them without the launcher basically removes all their damage potential.

a sling bullet. The ammunition for slings is called bullets.

And you are launching them with your mind.


I bet this would probably be a good feat for a Kineticist to help get around a lot of what might hold them up, though I'm not sure how widely allowed it would be.


Rhedyn wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
where are you getting a 12D8 rock from?
doubling the weight of a medium bullet 7 times. Then 4 more times to get to 1024 bls and 20d8
A musket bullet? i dont think you can mimic the damage of ammunition like that. likewise for arrows or sling stones, throwing them without the launcher basically removes all their damage potential.

a sling bullet. The ammunition for slings is called bullets.

And you are launching them with your mind.

Right, but you can't mimic the effect of launching the bullet from an appropriate sling. You get blast damage or as if you had thrown the bullet. Scaling up a lead sling bullet will become massively heavy before it reaches massive sizes. you'd end up with only a few D6 of damage based on the chart.


Bloodrealm wrote:
I bet this would probably be a good feat for a Kineticist to help get around a lot of what might hold them up, though I'm not sure how widely allowed it would be.

Not really.

It's two points of damage for a move action. Terrible exchange. Particularly since the kineticist has Gather Power, which is a move action and effectually lets you empower without burn, resulting in far more than 2 points of damage.

I mean, you could take it, but you'd get better mileage out of Skill Focus: Craft(basketweaving)


Torbyne wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
where are you getting a 12D8 rock from?
doubling the weight of a medium bullet 7 times. Then 4 more times to get to 1024 bls and 20d8
A musket bullet? i dont think you can mimic the damage of ammunition like that. likewise for arrows or sling stones, throwing them without the launcher basically removes all their damage potential.

a sling bullet. The ammunition for slings is called bullets.

And you are launching them with your mind.

Right, but you can't mimic the effect of launching the bullet from an appropriate sling. You get blast damage or as if you had thrown the bullet. Scaling up a lead sling bullet will become massively heavy before it reaches massive sizes. you'd end up with only a few D6 of damage based on the chart.

if we assume a sling bullet thrown only does 1 weapon dice damage (a thrown stone as an improvised weapon) then that would only decrease the damage by one or two size steps. So still 16d8 or 18d8 by 1024lbs. Compared to the normal blast damage at that level of 6d6+6. One problem is that the stone thrown takes the same damage as you deal, meaning it breaks apart rather quick.


Rhedyn wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
Torbyne wrote:
where are you getting a 12D8 rock from?
doubling the weight of a medium bullet 7 times. Then 4 more times to get to 1024 bls and 20d8
A musket bullet? i dont think you can mimic the damage of ammunition like that. likewise for arrows or sling stones, throwing them without the launcher basically removes all their damage potential.

a sling bullet. The ammunition for slings is called bullets.

And you are launching them with your mind.

Right, but you can't mimic the effect of launching the bullet from an appropriate sling. You get blast damage or as if you had thrown the bullet. Scaling up a lead sling bullet will become massively heavy before it reaches massive sizes. you'd end up with only a few D6 of damage based on the chart.
if we assume a sling bullet thrown only does 1 weapon dice damage (a thrown stone as an improvised weapon) then that would only decrease the damage by one or two size steps. So still 16d8 or 18d8 by 1024lbs. Compared to the normal blast damage at that level of 6d6+6. One problem is that the stone thrown takes the same damage as you deal, meaning it breaks apart rather quick.

I'm still missing something. On its own the bullet is a diminutive size and would do maybe 1D2 damage as an improvised thrown weapon. Quadruple its size and it goes up one category and becomes a 1D3 weapon. Keep this going And you end up maxing out the weight you can throw at only a few D6. Look at the environmental hazards chart, for a boulder the size of a dinosaur you don't even get close to 18D6.

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