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Trust me, some humans are more fun when they can think coherently.
ONLY THE INT-CASTERS, EVERYONE ELSE DUMP HARD
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Murderhobo, to me, is a cynical commentary on how most adventurers live. They tend to be essentially homeless vagabonds who wander from town to town, solving problems with violence. That alone describes the vast majority of PCs. It's goofy commentary on the adventurer lifestyle.Your assumption that how you play is how "the vast majority of PCs" are played has probably already been covered earlier in this very thread.
My PCs don't fit that description, nor do I encourage/incentivize that mode of play in games I run. And given the number of times I've succeeded in published adventures by NOT acting like a violence-first vagabond tells me that the interest in non-murderhobo-style gaming is more popular than you give it credit for.
How many adventures have you solved without using violence?
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How many adventures have you solved without using violence?Murderhobo, to me, is a cynical commentary on how most adventurers live. They tend to be essentially homeless vagabonds who wander from town to town, solving problems with violence. That alone describes the vast majority of PCs. It's goofy commentary on the adventurer lifestyle.Your assumption that how you play is how "the vast majority of PCs" are played has probably already been covered earlier in this very thread.
My PCs don't fit that description, nor do I encourage/incentivize that mode of play in games I run. And given the number of times I've succeeded in published adventures by NOT acting like a violence-first vagabond tells me that the interest in non-murderhobo-style gaming is more popular than you give it credit for.
My players are pretty frequent to at least try non-violent methods first about half the time. It works somewhere between one-in-four and one-in-three.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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How many adventures have you solved without using violence?Murderhobo, to me, is a cynical commentary on how most adventurers live. They tend to be essentially homeless vagabonds who wander from town to town, solving problems with violence. That alone describes the vast majority of PCs. It's goofy commentary on the adventurer lifestyle.Your assumption that how you play is how "the vast majority of PCs" are played has probably already been covered earlier in this very thread.
My PCs don't fit that description, nor do I encourage/incentivize that mode of play in games I run. And given the number of times I've succeeded in published adventures by NOT acting like a violence-first vagabond tells me that the interest in non-murderhobo-style gaming is more popular than you give it credit for.
Entire adventures? Only a couple I think. But individual potentially-violent situations with sentient antagonists? More than I can count.
For example: I went to GenCon last year, and played a PFS scenario where about halfway through we entered a room and spotted two people waiting in ambush. I called out, "Hey! Are you guys okay? We saw some bodies earlier; were they your friends? Do you need help?" I spent resources to heal the NPCs, and we escorted them out of the deadly dungeon to make sure they were safe.
That was my bloodrager, and the NPCs were armed bandits. Extrapolate from there.
My players are pretty frequent to at least try non-violent methods first about half the time. It works somewhere between one-in-four and one-in-three.How many adventures have you solved without using violence?Murderhobo, to me, is a cynical commentary on how most adventurers live. They tend to be essentially homeless vagabonds who wander from town to town, solving problems with violence. That alone describes the vast majority of PCs. It's goofy commentary on the adventurer lifestyle.Your assumption that how you play is how "the vast majority of PCs" are played has probably already been covered earlier in this very thread.
My PCs don't fit that description, nor do I encourage/incentivize that mode of play in games I run. And given the number of times I've succeeded in published adventures by NOT acting like a violence-first vagabond tells me that the interest in non-murderhobo-style gaming is more popular than you give it credit for.
So solving a problem with violence is fairly common then, no?
Edit: @Jiggy. Trigger didn't say violence first.
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Edit: @Jiggy. Trigger didn't say violence first.
Which is why I didn't talk about violence first. Did you actually read my post? My example was not about trying to talk to the bandits first and then fighting them anyway, it was about talking to the bandits and never drawing a weapon against them. Combat was entirely avoided for that encounter. And that's the type of thing I was talking about when I said there were more examples than I can count.
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People who post about pt. buy being cookie cutter grind ma gears.
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I cant blame folks for finding cookies to be an inferior snack though!
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I cant blame folks for finding cookies to be an inferior snack though!
Only posting to point out that a thread is going to be a popcorn muncher and contributing nothing more GMG.
:-P
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Must be why you are deranged.We see see what you did there, no Gamemastery Guide has authority over us.Ooh, you like Popcorn with your Paizo Gamemastery Guide?!?
Only posting to point out that a thread is going to be a popcorn muncher and contributing nothing more GMG.
:-P
People arguing with themselves using different aliases Gamemastery G-
I mean uh, grinds my gears.
Now you know what I feel like, voices, arguing in my head...
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Now you know what I feel like, voices, arguing in my head...Must be why you are deranged.We see see what you did there, no Gamemastery Guide has authority over us.Ooh, you like Popcorn with your Paizo Gamemastery Guide?!?
Only posting to point out that a thread is going to be a popcorn muncher and contributing nothing more GMG.
:-P
People arguing with themselves using different aliases Gamemastery G-
I mean uh, grinds my gears.
Hey! I have a monopoly on dark-skinned elf aliases!
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Hey, you! Stay in your dedicated pbp campaign!Hey! I have a monopoly on dark-skinned elf aliases!Now you know what I feel like, voices, arguing in my head...Must be why you are deranged.We see see what you did there, no Gamemastery Guide has authority over us.Ooh, you like Popcorn with your Paizo Gamemastery Guide?!?
Only posting to point out that a thread is going to be a popcorn muncher and contributing nothing more GMG.
:-P
People arguing with themselves using different aliases Gamemastery G-
I mean uh, grinds my gears.
It's dead, I am now a FREE ALIAS!
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Hey! I have a monopoly on dark-skinned elf aliases!
Huh?
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Keep it up, this is incredibly painful to read!I shall alleviate thy pain!
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HMPH! I shan't be USED that way!
(Much.)
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Murderhobo, to me, is a cynical commentary on how most adventurers live. They tend to be essentially homeless vagabonds who wander from town to town, solving problems with violence. That alone describes the vast majority of PCs. It's goofy commentary on the adventurer lifestyle.Your assumption that how you play is how "the vast majority of PCs" are played has probably already been covered earlier in this very thread.
My PCs don't fit that description, nor do I encourage/incentivize that mode of play in games I run. And given the number of times I've succeeded in published adventures by NOT acting like a violence-first vagabond tells me that the interest in non-murderhobo-style gaming is more popular than you give it credit for.
Hell, my half-orc barbarian on Jade Regent has max ranks in Diplomacy.
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Hey! I have a monopoly on dark-skinned elf aliases!Now you know what I feel like, voices, arguing in my head...Must be why you are deranged.We see see what you did there, no Gamemastery Guide has authority over us.Ooh, you like Popcorn with your Paizo Gamemastery Guide?!?
Only posting to point out that a thread is going to be a popcorn muncher and contributing nothing more GMG.
:-P
People arguing with themselves using different aliases Gamemastery G-
I mean uh, grinds my gears.
Oh now?
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Oh now?Hey! I have a monopoly on dark-skinned elf aliases!Now you know what I feel like, voices, arguing in my head...Must be why you are deranged.We see see what you did there, no Gamemastery Guide has authority over us.Ooh, you like Popcorn with your Paizo Gamemastery Guide?!?
Only posting to point out that a thread is going to be a popcorn muncher and contributing nothing more GMG.
:-P
People arguing with themselves using different aliases Gamemastery G-
I mean uh, grinds my gears.
Let it be. It gives me more handsome noble lone outcast cred to work with at the taverns.
Ladies and gentlemen love a handsome noble lone outcast.
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My players are pretty frequent to at least try non-violent methods first about half the time. It works somewhere between one-in-four and one-in-three.How many adventures have you solved without using violence?Murderhobo, to me, is a cynical commentary on how most adventurers live. They tend to be essentially homeless vagabonds who wander from town to town, solving problems with violence. That alone describes the vast majority of PCs. It's goofy commentary on the adventurer lifestyle.Your assumption that how you play is how "the vast majority of PCs" are played has probably already been covered earlier in this very thread.
My PCs don't fit that description, nor do I encourage/incentivize that mode of play in games I run. And given the number of times I've succeeded in published adventures by NOT acting like a violence-first vagabond tells me that the interest in non-murderhobo-style gaming is more popular than you give it credit for.
So solving a problem with violence is fairly common then, no?
Edit: @Jiggy. Trigger didn't say violence first.
'Tis a tragic fact that our world is filled with violence. Sometimes the only answer left to us is violence, even if we endeavor to minimize it.
But that does not mean all efforts towards peaceful solutions are for nought. If anything it makes such attempts all the more important. And there are more of those who would pursue those higher means than the cynical and jaded might suggest.
And we are no one's fools. We stand ready to defend ourselves and others when the wicked assume that we are.
'Tis a vast gulf between vigilance and an embracing of violence.
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Oh now?Hey! I have a monopoly on dark-skinned elf aliases!Now you know what I feel like, voices, arguing in my head...Must be why you are deranged.We see see what you did there, no Gamemastery Guide has authority over us.Ooh, you like Popcorn with your Paizo Gamemastery Guide?!?
Only posting to point out that a thread is going to be a popcorn muncher and contributing nothing more GMG.
:-P
People arguing with themselves using different aliases Gamemastery G-
I mean uh, grinds my gears.Let it be. It gives me more handsome noble lone outcast cred to work with at the taverns.
Ladies and gentlemen love a handsome noble lone outcast.
Keep your dark skinned aliases! Greenies are where it's at! The goblin babies on my spikes say so!
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You're not my supervisor either!Indeed!*Highfives STEVE HOLT!!!!!!*
MATT HHHHHHOOOOLLL.... DAMON!!!
esolcooterauoysihtdaernacuoyfI
Wow. That turned out most educatonal...
Seems there are only 9 levels of grayness to the quote pyramid... Good to know. And yet it grinds my gears... It should keep going all the way to black. The fact that the grayness gets deeper as you go makes it seem more like a quote pit descending into darkness than a quote pyramid...
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The overzealous fans who feel the need to defend the company at every turn. Over any kind of negative criticism. It's one thing to defend against insults at Paizo. It's another when as soon as one says anything negative. The inevitable "if you hate the company so much why are you here". Style of posts. This any most forums are not and never will be echo chambers imo.
The fan who complains about the rules yet don't want to see any major changes. It's rare but that kind of behavior makes no sense. Complaining about the disparity between Fighter and Wizard. Yet when a major change is mentioned. The same fans complain it would be a different game. Why complain if one does not want anything changed. Their some very confused individuals in the hobby imo.
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memorax, if you hate Paizo so much, why are you here?
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Mythic aliases.
"Ugh." Scavion says, his voice reverberating with power.
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First.
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Your assumption that how you play is how "the vast majority of PCs" are played has probably already been covered earlier in this very thread.
I feel supremely confident in saying that, based on what I see on the boards, in published modules, in table tales from all around, indicates that most adventurers will, sooner or later, solve problems with violence.
I am NOT saying that all problems should be solved by violence, or that roleplaying and using diplomacy to get around them is somehow improper or a waste of time.
But characters are often defined by what they do in combat. When they gain levels, they usually gain powers related to combat. Adventurers are based around the characters being a heavily armed group ready to deal with problem in a multitude of ways, and able to defend themselves when it comes to it. And that there are numerous problems that simply can't be talked around. I don't see how you could peacefully negotiate with a Shoggoth or a Bandersnatch.
And I think this gets into what makes me annoyed. The implication with the use of Murderhobo that I dismiss non-RP elements, that my character is nothing more than a jumble of stats in a turn-based tactical game, and anything else is a waste of time and combat effectiveness. While I do enjoy the tactical elements, I don't embrace them and ignore everything else.
My GM awards full RP for overcoming an encounter, even if initiative is never rolled. Be it negotiation, stealth, or some other method. So I do not dismiss RPing or alternative problem solving. Hell, talking around an encounter is far more efficient. You don't have to waste spells or resources.
(And, to go against everything I mentioned and indulge my hack'n'slasher side, using diplomacy to overcome the encounter means they're still around to overcome. You could get XP TWICE from the same encounter!)
How many adventures have you solved without using violence?Entire adventures? Only a couple I think. But individual potentially-violent situations with sentient antagonists? More than I can count.
That proves my point exactly. I have nothing against overcoming encounters without violence. But the basic assumption of the game is that you will sooner or later, and more than likely sooner, resort to combat. Indeed, characters are often hired/appointed for their combat skill first and foremost, even if they attempt to find other methods to end encounters.
I ignore the other meanings that have accumulated around the word, and simply look at the roots.
Do you often solve problems with violence, and are you equipped to do so? "Murder"
Do your characters have a permanent place of residence? No? Do they often wander from town to town? "Hobo"
That's all I take from the word. A silly commentary of the average adventuring lifestyle. All this added baggage about gameplay styles, hack'n'slash methods, and dismissing and ignoring RPing and diplomacy is what grinds my gears, as this argument has nicely shown.
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First.
EDIT - Nevermind what I might've incorrectly remembered earlier...
...But not the last!
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First.Not according to your "something something" thread. There you said Mythic TOZ beat you to it.
Oh, no, that's not the case at all.
The whole thing started with me ragging on the Epic rules for being just the normal options with the word "Epic" prepended to them.
I pledged that I would mock the Mythic rules terribly if they did the same thing. They did.
At the exact moment of the Mythic release, I ascended.
Since I was the first, I have obtained the highest Mythic Rank of any of the Mythic Posters. Which is how I have thwarted all of your pathetic attempts on my life.
Only TOZ has a rank comparable to my own, and he would never betray me... *checks over his malicious-TOZ contingency plan* ... for his own sake.
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@Trigger Loaded—There's a pretty big difference between the "you'll use violence eventually" stance you've shifted to in this last post and the violence-as-a-lifestyle picture you were painting originally. And that difference is where the term "murderhobo" comes in.
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First.Not according to your "something something" thread. There you said Mythic TOZ beat you to it.
Oh, no, that's not the case at all.
The whole thing started with me ragging on the Epic rules for being just the normal options with the word "Epic" prepended to them.
I pledged that I would mock the Mythic rules terribly if they did the same thing. They did.
At the exact moment of the Mythic release, I ascended.
Since I was the first, I have obtained the highest Mythic Rank of any of the Mythic Posters. Which is how I have thwarted all of your pathetic attempts on my life.
How dare you contradict me! Sic semper tyrannus!
I will destroy you one day, Mark my words... unless, you know, I get bored and change my mind, being chaotic neutral and all...
@Trigger Loaded—There's a pretty big difference between the "you'll use violence eventually" stance you've shifted to in this last post and the violence-as-a-lifestyle picture you were painting originally. And that difference is where the term "murderhobo" comes in.
Is it? I've read my post that started this discussion, and I honestly don't see it. And I don't think the two stances you've posted are exclusive, either. Violence is a lifestyle for most adventurers, even if they find alternate methods when they can.
But anyways, I've said my peace. Anything further I suspect will simply be restating what I've posted and denying claims. I think Murderhobo isn't nearly as bad as others make it out to be.
*Extends hand* Agree to disagree?
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@Trigger Loaded—There's a pretty big difference between the "you'll use violence eventually" stance you've shifted to in this last post and the violence-as-a-lifestyle picture you were painting originally. And that difference is where the term "murderhobo" comes in.Is it? I've read my post that started this discussion, and I honestly don't see it. And I don't think the two stances you've posted are exclusive, either. Violence is a lifestyle for most adventurers, even if they find alternate methods when they can.
What you describe in your second post could be applied to a police officer. What you describe in your first post could not. Do you see that difference? I wouldn't say "violence is a lifestyle for most adventurers" any more than I'd say "violence is a lifestyle for most police officers".
Does that help clarify?
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Fun Fact: Hobo is an abbreviation for Homeward Bound.
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"Martials can't have nice things."
The mental gymnastics necessary to hold this view are downright dizzying and would even get a 10 from a Russian Olympic judge.
Believing it's true by the game design or agreeing with it as an appropriate and acceptable game design?
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Quark Blast states "She's also had 3,000 years to plan her revenge and her INT is higher than anyone posting on this forum."
This is the kind of thing that grinds my gears. If you said this to someone in person, your teeth would likely need to be replaced into your head by an orthodontic surgeon. But not being face to face on boards gives the ability to say things you would likely never say if you were in the same room.
You know what grinds my gears? People who take offense at the suggestion that we're not ALL friggin' geniuses.
I mean, I don't know what creature is being referred to in your quote, but I'm going to guess it's something like a balor or other long-lived/immortal creature with an INT that is literally beyond what any human can achieve without magical augmentation.
I'm pretty sure if I were talking to a group of people face-to-face and said "She's also had 3,000 years to plan her revenge and her INT is higher than anyone in this room," the response would be chuckles and a chorus of "Yeah, good point" or "Oh wow, I didn't realize [CREATURE]s were so intelligent; yeah, [SITUATION] makes sense then."
Your degree of anger at the suggestion that you and the people around you are not more intelligent than super-brained fantasy creatures speaks very ill of you.
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IIRC, it is Lady Vol of the Eberron setting, who I believe is a lich, or something like that.