The Mad Priest (Ghost)

PT.B=The Devil's page

49 posts. Alias of Pan.


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lol that reminds me of a time when a poster asked how to make a cool character that uses a rapier and was told to make a monk with piercing fist...

Oh and everytime a thread opens about making the joker every poster starts by dumping charisma...

Andostre wrote:
This morning when I'm carrying three bags and heading to the escalator on my way up to the office, and some dude carrying nothing but his phone which he's staring into while oblivious to everything else reaches the escalator just before me and then stops, preventing me from climbing up at my own pace.

As a non-cellphone owner this drives me crazy. Quite frustrating when folks block an aisle at the grocery store, block a walking path, or block anything in general. The worst part, if you politely ask them to move they just look at you like you just insulted their mother.

Dont yall forget about me...

Man, I hope we aint hanging onto stats over mods because of rolling...

thflame wrote:

Anyone else not liking the idea of your background and class determining your stats? I get racial stat modifiers due to genetics, but not background or class.

You should be able to play a character with non-optimal stats.

Also, tying stat bumps to background just makes players pick the background that gives them the stat boosts they want.

I'm also not a fan of a net +4 for race. A 10-11 is supposed to be average for a human. It feels like power creep for the sake of marketing.

I cant imagine they wont have a dice rolling and point buy alternative option. Chances are it will kill your character's effectiveness, but the option will be there for you.

Yeah 4E point buy was "pump x and y and forget the rest" I dont see that going on for PF2.

QuidEst wrote:
Wicked Woodpecker of the West wrote:

Ancestry: +2 stat, +2 stat, -2 stat, +2 floater (can't apply to one of the bonus stats)

Background: +2 stat, +2 stat, +2 floater (can't apply to one of the bonus stats)
Class: +4 stat, +2 stat, +2 floater (can't apply to one of the bonus stats)
That's insanse. That would mean you could start game with one attribute at 26.

+2 from ancestry, +2 from background, and +4 from class. The base is 10. 10+2+2+4 = 18 maximum.

There's no point buy in their version; it's just bonuses. (This sounds like what they're probably going with, since they talked about building your stat array.)

What!? No choice, no odd stats!? It will be like I dont exist anymore...

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KujakuDM wrote:

4d6, Reroll 1's, if you don't particularly like what you roll you can re roll if I feel like you can justify it.

It isn't hard to play the game and not be a jackass about it. And if you need to do point buy to make sure your players aren't being crappy perhaps you should find new players.

Rolling made my players crappy.

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Feeling the love in this thread...

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Take a guess :)

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Paladin_Knight_marshmallow wrote:


drink it in.

Definitely getting to be a worthy first paladin thread.
Ans here I was worried there wouldn't be enough fireworks for it to be worth it.

Next up, stat generation methods :)

Seems like a lot of work that could be saved by simply going with a stat array.

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5 players is my adventure path wheel house. My players are fairly tactical, but I wouldn't describe them as top tier optimizers. Here is how I roll below.

    Pan's Pro tips:
    1. 20pt buy
    2. Max all HP of enemies.
    3. Ditch XP and use the advancement track. Once players reach about 5th-6th level, keep them a level behind the advancement track.


I see the topic of this thread changing quickly.....

You cant win an argument about role vs. roll playing. Its all going to be a discussion about preference from here on out.

thejeff wrote:
master_marshmallow wrote:
PT.B=The Devil wrote:
Sounds reasonable. How does providing different PB to different classes work out on the table?

Same as rolling where players can swap stats, people end up with characters they enjoy and function according to their mechanics.

I understand working within point buy feels more like skill to some players, as an actual facet of the game, but it doesn't change the class design.

See, I don't find that with rolling - even with arrange in order. I've been plenty frustrated with rolls that don't let me play what I was interested in or with huge swings of power between characters - often exaggerating the imbalance between classes.

Different point buys might fix that, but I dispute the idea that the class design naturally works better with rolling.

Also, my experience unless the rolling method is extremely generous as in keep doing it until you get what you want generous.

Sounds reasonable. How does providing different PB to different classes work out on the table?

master_marshmallow wrote:
I am very vocally opposed to point buy, as I've found its influence on game design to be a bit sad since everything is now being designed to be built around it, which other classes do not.

I can agree with this. Imma still gonna use PB anyways.

Ventnor wrote:
PT.B=The Devil wrote:
Hell, I'll go even further and make it so only planar beings and undead ping as evil. Mortals are more fluid in their alignment and don't ping regardless, IMHO.
Maybe keep the auras possessed by divine casters, but only because they're channeling magic granted by said planar beings.

I could live with that exception.

risky wrote:

Most are, and even in the aligned cases you can't detect anything on them if they're under 5th level, which would cover most mortals.

Oh right, I forgot about that change. Hurray Paizo.

Hell, I'll go even further and make it so only planar beings and undead ping as evil. Mortals are more fluid in their alignment and don't ping regardless, IMHO.

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"cookie-cutter" to describe PB characters. The belief that stats some how mandate a character's personality is something ill never understand.

I understand folks have their preferences, but sometimes it can be interesting to work inside a box. Though some boxes are too small. I don't think a 15 PB would be for me, but I cant say until I am at the table. This could just be the first in many playstyle differences. Remember to be cool, and its ok not to like a playstyle, but don't be a jerk about it.

If point buy is "cookie cutter", is stat array also "cookie cutter"?

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HyperMissingno wrote:
I dunno, 4d6 drop lowest works for my table, we just reroll a lot until the GM thinks the stat roll is acceptable.

isnt that just rolling until you achieve stat array?

I roll with 20 point buy. Though, id be willing to try the rolling method where all the players roll a set and they pick one they all use.

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Tormsskull wrote:

PT.B=The Devil wrote:
My players reminisce about the time they played a ranger who became a city vigilante. They talk about the time their Bard became Baron of a small wilderness country. They talk about fighting dragons, old ones, and beholders. They never ever talk about their stats. Ever. I guess that explains why PB isnt seen as "cookie cutter" or "unearned" by me and the homies.

That's awesome - but I think you missed the point. If you use PB, why would a player ever tell stories about their stats? "Dude, do you remember that time I bought an 18? That was really smart on my part."

Do your players ever talk about that time when the group almost died but then Jane scored that critical hit to save the day? Its kind of like that.

We never talk about rolling "18s" though we talk about the times that one person had great stats and no one else did. Rolling stats wrecked more games for us then it ever made better or memorable. I understand what you are saying, im just providing another perspective. No insults, no badwrongfun, just a case of one man's feature being another man's bug.


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Tormsskull wrote:
TOZ wrote:
I can't for the life of me understand such a view.

It's probably due to starting with Basic D&D and roll 3d6 in order stat gen method.

In that method, rolling an 18 was very rare. Even when it switched to 4d6b3, an 18 was still fairly rare. So having an 18 put a character in an imaginary little elite club.

When people started using PB and buying an 18, that imaginary little elite club became a free-for-all that anyone and everyone could enter.

People use to tell stories about that one time Bob rolled an 18 - it was an event. No one tells stories about that time Bob bought an 18.

My players reminisce about the time they played a ranger who became a city vigilante. They talk about the time their Bard became Baron of a small wilderness country. They talk about fighting dragons, old ones, and beholders. They never ever talk about their stats. Ever. I guess that explains why PB isnt seen as "cookie cutter" or "unearned" by me and the homies.

What is this.....I dont even.....

I use 20 PB when I run APs and have 5 players. To make up for it I max all enemy HP and keep the players behind a level starting at about level 5. I ditch XP and use the advancement track instead. This seems to be my winning formula. Good luck!


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I dont worry too much about what stats mean. I keep them under the hood and they serve only mechanical purposes. I let my players roleplay however they see fit without forcing my idea of pretty/ugly or smart/stupid on them. Obviously, I would call foul if somebody tried play a genius with low Int and expected actual genius results in gameplay. Fortunately for me, my players have never tried such shenanigans so it has never come up.

I would prefer to roll but I got hang ups with all the failsafes you need to enact to make rolling work in 3.5/pf you might as well point buy anyways.

Exactly its a preference for a game so there is no need to justify it. That wont stop folks from trying!

master_marshmallow wrote:

The only real problem with point buy is that it is infecting game design.

Half the classes in the ACG have abilities that allow them to circumvent ability prereqs based on the premise that the class couldn't access those abilities because of the way the stat generation method limited them.

That combined with the stigma set by those who swear by it, makes me consider it, The Devil.

There was a thread on Facebook about it that got really nasty.

I agree with this. However, 3.5/PF just doesn't work well with random rolling from the get go. I mean sure you can trick motivations and intentions by using some type of failsafe rolling method that provides a standard array anyways, but why go through the extra work for a similar payout? Maybe just maybe P2 will take the path that allows random rolling to work out just fine. I doubt it though because 5E went this route and P2 when it happens is most likely going to be a wild opposite. The snakes are out of the can, so I'm living with point buy the devil I know.

To answer the OP its because people either want the traditional experience or the feel of an organically made character. This trick may just work for some groups, but others will only try and fight it. Ultimately, it's a preference thing and I would be surprised if you get a better answer than that.

If the chance of rolling up stats like that is right, i'm happy to be wrong....

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People who post about pt. buy being cookie cutter grind ma gears.

My problem is the 3E system doesn't allow random rolling to work well. To make it work better folks have applied all kinds of failsafes. To me adding dice, rerolling 1s, and rolling multiple sets takes away the randomness and fun of rolling. Now looking at 5E and its stat cap it appears to be a game that works a lot better with random rolling.

Point buy allows my players to build characters reliably out of game and make them easier for me to audit. I prefer this fully understanding pt buy has its own faults. Keep in mind I don't have "cookie cutter" chargen problems a lot of folks seem to. I dont stress a lot of RP on stats unless it becomes a problem, which it hasn't; YMMV. That is a whole other discussion.

Ultimately, there are two sides to stat gen preference, the subjective and the objective. Both pt buy and rolling can have balance issues that may need to be mitigated. Also, some people feel the process needs to seem organic or random. How a GM/table reconciles those elements will determine the preference of stat gen system in my experience.

Needs a hair piece.

Degoon Squad wrote:
If a Wizard starts with a 20 int at first level and so his other stats suck, what his chance of seeing level 2 unless the GM pulls his punch? What is going to do when the first Kobold grapples Him?

He wont have to worry because every encounter the kobolds will line up in cone formation and die to his colorspray spell.

I just realized... we are missing a certain poster who is quite well known for thinking point buy is the devil...

He's covered.

20 point buy is my go to option. Your method is allright Id still just prefer everyone to use point buy. I've not experienced the game any different by rolling or point buying exccept when it comes to mechanics, so the cookie cutter thing doesnt affect me. As GM Id prefer everyone be on a similar level. Rolling just doesnt allow that in my experience. You can of course build in all kinds of failsafes into rolling but the more you do the less random it will be. Might as well be point buy anyhow. YMMV

I run APs typically using 20 PB right out of the book. I am sure some people have variants but Id put money on most people following the book model.

You should add ultimate Campaign to your list of material.

My playstyle seems to be at odds with a few of your decisions. Ill just comment on a few. When it comes to APs I use the advancment track and skip XP entirely. I have just found that I dont like staggered level PCs and I dont like the book keeping. With the advancment track you have plot points where you can level the party up. Its a nice change unless you are looking for an old school feel which is undertsandable. For my money the game runs better without XP.

I also choose point buy because I like my players to build their PCs the way they want. I dont have to watch rolling and make sure nobody cheats. Also, it keeps the players fairly level at the table; system mastery depending of course. I dont even know my players attributes anymore and it has not mattered a bit. We seperate out the RP from the mechanics. YMMV of course but stats dont have to affect play at the table.

APs are designed for 4 players at 15 point buy. I have 5 players and I use 20 point buy. The result is that at about level 6 I start to hold the players back a level going forward. I also max HP on enemies and a few other minor tweaks here and there.

I posted contrary positions not to say playing one way is the right or wrong way. I really just wanted to share my perspective I why I chose not to use rolling and XP. I also have a bit of experience with the APs and find the methods mentioned hits a sweet spot at my table. The APs are a lot of fun I hope you are enjoying the experience so far.

What module? We steam roll APs all the time and "jack of all trades insta death" is my go to array I guess. Let them stat it up and go. Players gotta learn sometime, amirite?

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Kids, really, its fine as long as you use point buy.

Its ok Drizzit can just pt.b his stats up and skip feats so he will be awesome anyway!



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Shhhhhhhh just play you fools!!!!