Welcome to the list of people on these boards that I love intensely.Don't be silly. Eidolons get pounce at first level and a spellcaster companion.Heh. It's another one of those, "3.5 did this already and the world didn't end," things, to be perfectly honest.
Its a full 3 levels before the earliest class can get pounce!(Druid 6th via Beastshape 2)
Op! Everyone dips Swashbuckler!
I jest of course.
Damn! I wasn't there for the Summoner Playtest but BELIEVE YOU ME! I WOULD HAVE RAGED.
Anyways, I think all martials should have a pseudo-pounce ability to alleviate the silly "I move 10ft and only make 1 attack when I could have made 4 issues."
Then you just turned Extra Grit into a better Weapon Specialization. I like the direction you're coming from, though.What if, instead of unspent panache, it was totall panache?I apologize if this idea has a) been suggested already or b) is really fscking stupid.
To solve the dex to dmg problem and the "who cares about cha" problem, what if precise strike was changed to say something like:
"the swashbuckler gets dex to damage up too the amount of panache she has unspent in her pool. This damage is multiplied on a crit."That could work out if panache was some deep resource pool you used sparingly like ki, but that really just isn't how it works. You never get more, and you're constantly spending and recharging it. It works better to think of it as like a dragon's breath weapon or something.
The idea of getting it back after a minute without critting things is interesting though. Derring-do would see an awful lot more use, and it would do a lot towards solving that "0 uses, 20 uses, 21 uses" issue. Make it less of a no brainer to always use a rapier (or dervish for a scimitar) too.
I'd suggest adding a line saying it doesnt stack with weapon spec, but then I remembered that extra grit can be taken multiple times. On the other hand that might not be an awful thing since a swashbuckler will have to increase dex more than cha to be able to hit anything, so taking extra grit can help them keep pace with damage.
Don't regular martials often have high Strength and 13+ Dex for Dodge, AC, init, Reflex, mobility skills, etc.? So it shouldn't be too bad for swashbucklers to have high Dex and 13+ Str for Power Attack, carrying capacity, damage, and different mobility skills.
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What I was originally planning to do today was keep proceeding along with this Debbie Debug playtest. I still do need to shake out issues with these higher level deeds, and heading into the teens, the money exists to finally buy her way into power attack, finally getting her up to par on melee damage at the expense of being totally strapped for cash around when everyone else is running out of ideas on what to buy and just kinda delving for class-specific wondrous items and bumping weapons up to DR bypassing levels. Presumably, by the high end of the teens when you just plain don't know what to do with your money, she'll pretty well be caught up in most ways and largely on par with similar classes.
However, at this point, any way you look at it, we're halfway through the game. Just hit level 11, just started in on book 4 out of 6 of an AP. No matter how beautiful a butterfly Debbie might someday get to be (and it's really nothing to write home about), it's not worth spending over half her life as a caterpillar whose best way to contribute to the party is to stand in front of things and hope they don't think to just walk around. Plus, it's been brought to my attention that I totally missed a line about getting access to fighter-only feats, which calls for some revision. So, let's put this on hold and really work on optimization. The best way to optimize this class is to just start off as a Dawnflower Dervish Bard at level 1. Everything it gives you more than offsets any delayed access or reduced access to class features. Dismissing that as a total cheat for now though, we know dex-focusing sucks, and we know str-focusing with a light armor restriction is kinda suicidal at low levels. We can't exactly do both at once unless we dump basically everything, which is murdering us with saves, hurts the concept and some class features if we dump int, and while trashing the hell out of cha has surprisingly little negative effect (none at all if there's an extra panache feat, which I still say would be a horrible thing to exist). We can't really dump anything here!
So let's not dump anything. Here is Dullard Debug at level 1. A friend suggested this stat line that probably would never have occurred to me otherwise, because she doesn't have more than a +2 bonus to anything, but it does in fact seem to be the best possible way to slap this together.
Compared to poor Debbie at level 1, this is amazing. Look at all this crazy stuff she has going on. I only had to give up 1 skill (which is harsh and really kinda forces her favored class bonus in as a replacement). Her AC drops a point for now but will catch back up with +3 to her dex catches her up to what is essentially the ceiling, and hey, her flatfooted is better. She has enough str to start off with power attack, the feat Debbie desperately needed and spent half her life chasing. Much more importantly she has enough strength to actually wear clothes! I wasn't kidding before, Debbie really was forced to give away her free starting set of clothes because they weighed her down too much. Now look at all this stuff she has in her inventory! Clothes, some rope, something to sleep on outside, and even a bag to keep it all in! Living the high life! And hey, hitting off her str, which is no worse than her dex, she can actually... sort of hit things! Do a little damage even!
So, what's the catch here? Well, the catch here is that her stat line is freaking 14/15/12/10/10/14! Would you ever, when specifically going for a totally minmaxed ruthless efficient killing machine, consider those good stats? Because that is what they are trying to accomplish here. Her fort save is just as terrible as ever. Her will save's not bottomed out, but it's still a +0 right now. Wouldn't mind a little more HP with this AC. She's really wanting for skill points. Her general melee effectiveness is pretty low when, again, I kinda want 3 more dex to get this AC up to par, but damage is still tied to str, and ultimately, it's worth shifting the focus there and making the finesse irrelevant. This leaves her a bit further behind the curve (although, on the upside, she can see the curve at level 1). It wouldn't be out of the question to let both stats rot and focus on some other aspect, but what? Charisma for a bigger panache pool? In practice, 2 points really seems to be all Debbie was able to use reliably. Pretty marginal gain. CMB's worse than Debbie's and she really can't afford escape artist (although her CMD's better, so she might not be grappled to death as fast from that end).
I'd be willing to play with stats that looked a little like this for certain classes mind you. This is close to how I might make a monk, but even if you don't dismiss monks as one of the worst possible classes you could play (and I don't for what it's worth), they get something out of it. Their saves are the best in the game, they've got these quasi-magic powers, they can get anywhere on the map in a flash, then do the whole flurry thing.
I'd maybe try this for a rogue. Again, many would argue, a terribly low bar. Dex for two-weapon fighting, str to actually handle the hits, maybe spread the rest around for versatility in skills but... hey, the rogue also gets a bunch of stuff. A giant mountain of skill points, all those sneak attack dice that add up quick with two weapons, trapfinding and lock picking, the versatility of all those crazy cool talents.
Might work as bard stats. In this exact order even. But a bard is the very definition of a jack of all trades. Spells, encyclopedic knowledge and great skills in general, buffs for the party, a good will save, access to a decent selection of weapons where yeah, their BAB sucks, but they can keep their squishy selves back.
I might use stats like this on an alchemist if I didn't know what I wanted to do with him, but see above.
So OK, this level of dependence on every stat works for classes with a hugely versatile array of abilities and range. If we had that, then no, I wouldn't be sweating how they lag behind on damage even with being pigeon-holed to a single viable weapon and certain monster types they can't scratch. But... they don't have that. At all. Panache doesn't do anything feats can't do better, and those fighters I was comparing Debbie to have access to plenty of those. The same fighters people complain about never having enough options outside of combat.
Adding more out of combat deeds wouldn't really help, because panache isn't some deep pool to slowly drain all day, it's this flighty little shallow thing that toggles around if you're constantly just standing there crit-stabbing. And at that, if you aren't turning right around and reinvesting it, you're giving up a huge chunk of the damage those crits would normally do, and if you're really trying to get a full pool to play with once combat's done, you're wasting points as they overflow the max until it's over, which is no fun.
Dullard here really just... has no strengths. The draw to the class is being some nimble little fighter, but she's kinda giving that up just to be able to get through the day without collapsing. And yet, still the best way I can think of to set the class up.
Don't regular martials often have high Strength and 13+ Dex for Dodge, AC, init, Reflex, mobility skills, etc.? So it shouldn't be too bad for swashbucklers to have high Dex and 13+ Str for Power Attack, carrying capacity, damage, and different mobility skills.
Not all of them no. The ones that do have no reason not to totally dump cha. Paladins don't dump cha, but can just wear heavy armor, sit on a horse, and dump dex along with wisdom and if they're willing to spend swifts regularly to heal (swashbucklers kinda constantly spend swifts to do everything), they can even get away with losing some con, which swashbucklers kinda desperately need more of then all these classes to shore a bad save up.
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I believe I mentioned something similar already though I might be wrong but since it's being put out there again I would love to see the Swashbuckler get a deed that allows them to take a move action as a swift action.
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I think that dex to damage has been harped on enough. I am in favor of it. I think the argument against is often being framed improperly, by suggesting that this has to do with actual damage output. It does not. A strength based swashbuckler will have the same damage output as a swashbuckler that uses dervish dancing or gets dex to damage as a class feature.
So really, those opposed to dex-to-damage are saying that the swashbuckler shouldn't have those additional bonuses to reflex, AC, acrobatics, stealth, escape artist etc. To me, those things seem pretty swashbucklery .
But either way. There must be other ways to incentivise Dexterity... and I think that the key here is to find a way to make armor class be a better bet for the swashbuckler.
So, couple ideas.
1 - Parry: As long as the swashbuckler has at least one point of panache, The swashbuckler reduces the penalties for fighting defensively or using combat expertise by 2 and increases the bonus to AC by 1. At 7th level the penalties for fighting defensively are reduced by an additional 1 and the bonus to AC increases by 1. If the swashbuckler is using combat expertise and fighting defensively in the same round, parry only applies to one of these.
2 - Riposte: If an enemy attacks the swashbuckler who is fighting defensively and misses, the swashbuckler can make an AoO against that opponent. Costs 1 panache.
3 - Canny Counter: For 1 panache: as an immediate action the swashbuckler can add his dexterity modifier to his weapon damage rolls against an opponent that just missed him with a melee attack for 1 round.
4 - Footwork: As long as the swashbuckler has at least 1 point of panache, when taking the move action, he can ignore up to 5ft. times his dexterity modifier of difficult terrain, treating it as regular terrain. By spending one panache the swashbuckler can ignore all difficult terrain for 1 round.
5 - Tumbling Charge: While the swashbuckler has at least 1 point of panache he can turn once up to 90 degrees during a charge rather than moving in a straight line. By spending one panache, the swashbuckler can move through one enemy in the path of the charge by making a successful acrobatics check to move through that opponents square.
6 - Intercepting Thrusts: When the swashbuckler takes the total defense action, he can still make attacks of opportunity. In addition, as long as the swashbuckler has at least one point of panache, when using total defense, he can make an attack of opportunity against any opponent that enters one of his threatened squares.
(this is inigo montoya stabbing five guards in a hallway right here!)
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I think some of us have major divergent opinions on what the swashbuckler should be and feel like.
I've seen suggestions to add bonuses to saving throws against Charm and Alcohol/Drugs/Poisons, for example - but I must object to this idea. I have to say that if it was implemented, I would immediately ignore these bonuses and even swap them if possible for an archetype.
To me, a swashbuckler is all about getting in trouble... yet swarming its own way out with agility, precise cinematic swordplay involving taunts, dirty tricks and feints, moving enough to avoid the strikes of big brutes, and using the sheer strength of its personality.
A swashbuckler SHOULD get drunk, charmed, easily influenced and reckless enough to get involved in dangerous situations ; because that's what makes fun and interesting things happen, and cool/daring abilities being used.
He shouldn't get dominated or downed in a single SoD/SoS spell though - this would be highly anticlimatic and not fit well the whole daredevil persona.
(Hence why I suggested Cha-instead-of-Wis to Will saves to represent the strength of personality ; and a limited amounts of daily Reflex saves instead of Will and Fortitude saves to represent the slippery bugger.)
But again, let's just wait for the next playtest document. As of now the swashbuckler is one of the coolest ACG classes but it still needs some tinkering.
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I suggested this earlier, aye. 3.5 had this available through the Shadow Blade feat and it didn't break any campaigns or outshine the strength-based melee at all. What it did do was wonders for making agile, graceful combatants viable.Heya, I'm not sure if this has already been said but what the heck why not?
Let the Swashbuckler add their dex to damage in addition to their Str Mod.
Now hear me out on this. This makes it so you won't dump STR as you'd eat the penalty to damage. In exchange you tone down Precise Strike a little or abolish it.
I'm sure one of yall could make it sound nicer.
I'm not too interested in the Swashbuckler myself, but it sounds like a good idea off the top of my head.
Which book is the feat Shadow Blade from?
Which book is the feat Shadow Blade from?I suggested this earlier, aye. 3.5 had this available through the Shadow Blade feat and it didn't break any campaigns or outshine the strength-based melee at all. What it did do was wonders for making agile, graceful combatants viable.Heya, I'm not sure if this has already been said but what the heck why not?
Let the Swashbuckler add their dex to damage in addition to their Str Mod.
Now hear me out on this. This makes it so you won't dump STR as you'd eat the penalty to damage. In exchange you tone down Precise Strike a little or abolish it.
I'm sure one of yall could make it sound nicer.
I'm not too interested in the Swashbuckler myself, but it sounds like a good idea off the top of my head.
Tome of Battle. There are some technical restrictions (only works with Shadow Hand discipline weapons, only works if you're in a Shadow Hand stance) but it was still a wonderful option that made so many Rogue and Dex-based melee concepts give people hugs.
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In my playtest, now that my swashbuckler has reached level 4, I'm doing just fine on damage output with the class as written. Using a 15 point buy, my usual attack is at +8 for 1d6+10 damage against most enemies, plus an occasional spike of an additional +4 damage as I spend and regain panache. That'll be +10 for 1d6+13 next level, which is perfectly decent for a front-line melee class at that level.
The issue is that, from here on out, I am going to have be dedicate basically every resource I have to boosting my defenses, specifically my saves. I need the best cloak of resistance I can afford, along with Iron Will, Great Fortitude and probably the Improved versions of both as fast as I can afford them. I don't expect to buy any combat-related feats from now until 13th level except for the freebies at 8th and 12th, everything has to go to keeping me from being mind-controlled or turned into a statue before my time.
Yep, Shadow Blade was great. As far as I remember, the only other way to get Dex to Damage was the Champion of Corellon PRC, which had very steep requirements and nothing worth taking more than 2 levels.
Remember, this is an edition where Sir Chargealot the Pouncing Leap Attacking Shock Trooper is still not better than the Glorious Specialist Wizard Master Race.
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I also support the Cha to all/some saves idea. A little boost in power that wont make Dex fighters want to dip in the class.
I do think they should have something else to make them more useful offensively at lower levels that ISN'T reliant on damage. Perhaps a deed like this:
Wordplay: At 1st level, the swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point as a full-round action to make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a -2 penalty while taunting, mocking, and berating his opponent into acting rashly. This ability functions as an Intimidate check to demoralize an opponent, but it is not a fear effect. The swashbuckler rolls 1d20 and adds his swashbuckler level and his Charisma modifier to determine the Wordplay result. In addition to granting the shaken condition, the opponent will focus their attention on the swashbuckler for 1 round to the exclusion of his allies.
I like Wordplay as a concept, but as a general rule if you're forcing them to spend Panache don't force them to take a penalty too. Think of movie sword duels. Were they fighting WORSE when they were engaging in witty banter? Certainly the duel between Inigo Montoya and the Man in Black didn't suffer from it.
I'm going to be house-ruling in the swashbuckling combat feats and bind maneuver from Razor Coast into Deeds when the time comes. Parry and Riposte are already there, so the others won't be that hard. I'll keep the feats for non-swashbucklers and for Swashbucklers who want to augment their Deeds. Adding the Bind combat maneuver is a must!
How about Cha to damage? It is a little more MAD than Dex to damage, and needs some spurious motivation "Hey. that GOT to hurt", but it gives an incentive to get Cha. Give this at level 3, give precise strike at level 1.
Of course any paladin who dipped to get this ability would have to be shot.
I think that dex to damage has been harped on enough. I am in favor of it. I think the argument against is often being framed improperly, by suggesting that this has to do with actual damage output. It does not. A strength based swashbuckler will have the same damage output as a swashbuckler that uses dervish dancing or gets dex to damage as a class feature.
Currently Dex to Damage is not a class feature of the Swashbuckler, and is it is not likely to be made into one. As for Dervish Dance and the Agile property, they are both in peripheral material that is not considered Core, and thus not used by some groups - mine included.
For those who missed Cheapy's comments with links on page 23 & page 24... The designers (specifically Jason Bulmahn) have stated that Dexterity to damage, even as a Mythic tier feat may be too powerful. Similarily, James Jacobs (the creator of the Dervish Dance feat) weighed in on the subject fairly recently.
We are all free to disagree with the designers on subjects as we choose (I have a few which I disagree with them on), but continuing to argue these points is not productive to the Swashbuckler discussion. This is not a subject the designers haven't thought through. It's not something they haven't discussed and it's highly unlikely that this thread is going to change their mind. So can we move on and discuss other points of the class?
So really, those opposed to dex-to-damage are saying that the swashbuckler shouldn't have those additional bonuses to reflex, AC, acrobatics, stealth, escape artist etc. To me, those things seem pretty swashbucklery.
This is an inaccurate characterization of my position (and this is probably true for most others who agree with me, likely including the designers). My position is that a Swashbuckler should be able to choose to what extent they focus on strength and to what extent they focus on dexterity, with each of those choices have trade-offs. Focus on Dexterity and you get the list of things you've mentioned. Focus on Strength and you get damage, and damage only. Since Swashbucklers have Precise Strike and should only be wielding a weapon in one hand, Strength is not NEARLY as critical to their damage output. Thus many (dare I say most; definitely myself) will realize that the 2 to 6 points of damage gained from focusing on Strength over Dexterity is not nearly as significant to the Swashbuckler and I would even venture to call it a trap that "those who focus on DPR to the extent of all else" will fall into.
But either way. There must be other ways to incentivise Dexterity... and I think that the key here is to find a way to make armor class be a better bet for the swashbuckler.
This is already true. At first level, a Dex 13, Str 18 Swashbuckler will have an armor class of 16. Reversing the Str and Dex results in a 3 point jump in armor class. And over the course of the next 8 to 10 levels, the Dex based Swashbuckler will gain another 2 points of AC from moving to a Mithril chain shirt. Both Swashbucklers will have the same feat access for boosting armor class or boosting damage output. So, the question is 5 points of damage or 5 points of armor class, 5 points of touch armor class, 5 points of initiative, 5 points to many more thematically appropriate class skills.
Edit: I want to note that I in no way expect to change Lord Malkov's mind with this post, lol. My reason for posting this is that others must understand that his point is not one the designers haven't considered. Instead, it is one they've considered fairly heavily and already decided on. Further discussion of dex to damage mechanics is not productive.
I have to disagree that further discussion of Dex-to-damage won't be productive. We're playtesters; dissenting is kind of our job. The designers might not agree with us but opinions change, sometimes even through reasoned debate. With the large amount of feedback about the subject it's at least a reason to visit it again, maybe poll the community about it.
Thinking the designers are wrong is fine. Thinking they'll never change, though, seems a little...I dunno, cynical? And, I mean, I like cynical but that's going a bit far.
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I don't think it's cynical - I think it's rational. The argument has quite literally been going on for years; just take a look at the links MechE provided. Once you hit a certain point, continuing to try something that has failed repeatedly in the past becomes... well, let's just say "overly optimistic."
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You want a recent designer quote?
I invented Dervish Dance. I'm delighted to see it get used and talked about.
I know it's not a core book feat... but I really think the swashbuckler needs a Dex to damage option so that it's not a feat that people will obsess over for them.
Put simply, the main job of a martial is to do damage. If the party's martial isn't doing that, then all of the tricks he can pull are just wasting everybody's time.
The swashbuckler-as-martial concept is Dex/Cha-based. As written, the best swashbuckler you can make is Str-based with Cha dumped.
Concept: rapier/sabre. Execution: spear/morning star/trident.
This is a fail.
Or, you could take a feat intended for Whirling Dervishes.
When people take levels of monk just to get Crane Parry/Riposte, this shows the inadequacy of the free parry/riposte ability in the class that should exemplify it.
All this doesn't mean that the whole thing needs to be thrown out! It would only take some tweaks to make it really match the concept while still fulfilling the martial role in a party.
And one of those tweaks is Dex to damage.
MechE...
Strait out dex to damage is overpowered yes... but fighting with only one one handed weapon, in light armor, with a high dexterity is a vastly underpowered style. The style requires a power boost from somewhere. I made a dex abusing dervish dancer and while his damage is decent its in no way shape or form overpowered. I might believe that its overpowered for a one handed fighter when I see a build doing way too much damage with it.
The mistake with the crossbow archetype was to make the crossbowman as about as good as a fighter using a crossbow... without taking into account how bad using a crossbow is to begin with.
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Put simply, the main job of a martial is to do damage. If the party's martial isn't doing that, then all of the tricks he can pull are just wasting everybody's time.
What's the standard you feel needs to be met, though? Because I'm playing a swashbuckler right now, using a rapier, whose damage really seems to be just fine with the class as written. Hell, I even went with some parry/riposte action in the earlier levels to some effect (although not since I hit level 3, because giving up precise strike? Ain't nobody got time for that!), so I took Combat Reflexes too - not exactly a DPR boost - and things are still looking pretty solid.
Maybe you think the damage is too low, but in order for that to be more than pure opinion, I'd have to know what you think an acceptable amount of damage is.
I like Wordplay as a concept, but as a general rule if you're forcing them to spend Panache don't force them to take a penalty too. Think of movie sword duels. Were they fighting WORSE when they were engaging in witty banter? Certainly the duel between Inigo Montoya and the Man in Black didn't suffer from it.
Good point. I was thinking in terms of how it replacing TWF for the swashbuckler, and that the swashbuckler is probably a LITTLE less focused if he's berating his opponent while fighting, but you're right: if it requires him to spend a point, there shouldn't be a penalty. If it doesn't require a point, there maybe there should be a penalty.
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Considering how it went in previous playtests, and since the designers's job is to design things (not read the boards and copy-paste the suggestions from people that may or may not at all get the concept of balance or theme right), I'd say the more we try to write the thing ourselves, the least the final result will deliver to our expectations.
Just consider one of the only things we know about the future playtest version : people complained about Parry/Riposte being both "weak", "too random", "much too hard to use" and "requiring a feat just to use it".
We know one of the investigated solutions is to solve the whole "I can't riposte at 1st level" issue by technically nerfing the deed so instead of requiring "1 point of panache + a successful incoming attack + a successful opposed attack of opportunity roll + 1 point of panache + Combat Reflexes + an additional attack of opportunity", it will now require "1 point of panache + a successful incoming attack + a successful opposed attack of opportunity roll + 1 point of panache + Immediate Action"... on a class that draws its damage potential and cool trick from having Panache and using swift actions. So you must have at least 16 Cha just to be sure to deal relevant damage on your riposte if by miracle you get to meet the whole prerequisites chain before you get the chance to riposte. I'm sure this is only part of the intended fixes for the deeds as a whole, but alone, this information seems like applying a band-aid on a open fracture because this way you won't bleed out anymore.
I trust Paizo for the job, but I honestly get the feeling than the most we point toward cool deeds and ask for improvement in the others, the most we'll get the cool deeds leveled down to a lower bland baseline for the sake of simplicity.
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As a player who has always played dex based fighters (I have my very first non-dex based melee character right now, after 22 years of RPing) and a DM who has often allowed feats that do exactly what is being discussed, I agree with Jason Bulmahn completely that just giving this ability away would be too powerful. I actually think that agile might need to be a +2 enchant (though, I love it), but ultimately, I don't think Dex to damage is something this class needs. It does need to incentivize dex ever so slightly to push it to dex over str because I think most of us are in agreement (most, not all) that this class should be based off of dex.
I still believe that finesse needs to be given at 1st level and I would like for it to count as weapon finesse for qualifying for feats, but I can see not adding that to maintain the feat tax for Dervish Dance.
By moving finesse to 1st, moving Parry/Riposte to 2nd makes sense.
I adore the idea of adding Cha to Will, and I think it is needed. I also think that the class should have Fort as a good save.
There are two things that I would like to add to the class that would really help with the flavor, push towards the class towards dex without requiring it 100%, and make it unique, but very connect to fighter.
Part One: This was a bit of an epiphany, but I think making making it so that Precise strike cannot exceed twice the dexterity modifier of the swashbuckler would force you to pick up some dex to keep the modifier early on, it would balance out against strength in the long wrong and make it a choice, rather than a much better damage choice to go strength.
Part Two: Swashbuckler's Weapon Group: I have not seen any mention of this idea(I have not read every post, sadly), but there have been tons of complaints about the swashbucklers weapon selection. I think it would not be very hard to create a list of weapons that fit the theme of the character and have them be what are allowed via Swashbuckler's Finesse (in fact, if it's worded properly, it could remove Scimitars from working...thus removing Dervish Dance from the picture, though I would put cutlass on the list, for sure) AND it could be stated that all swashbuckler's weapons qualify for Piranha Strike, which would be another blow to Str builds.
There are more things that the class needs to fit it's role as a mobile fighter, but these two, I think, would help push it in the right direction.
I really like the idea up stream where the Swashbuckler can spend panache as an immediate action and force someone who hit him to reroll the attack roll. It's fun and easy!
Or make it a 1/round ability, and have the panache spent to apply a penalty equal to the swashbuckler's Charisma modifier. Or to use an additional time per round (up to his Dex mod).
And then have it provoke an AoO if the re-roll misses. For a cheap and easy riposte mechanic!
My reason for posting this is that others must understand that his point is not one the designers haven't considered. Instead, it is one they've considered fairly heavily and already decided on. Further discussion of dex to damage mechanics is not productive.
Afraid you're right, and that the swasbuckler will not be a serious class but instead concept tax made form.
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I think a lot of the dex to damage argument is missing the point. As are the developers.
It already exists. That boat has sailed.
The class HAS to be constructed with the idea that Dervish Dance, Piranha Strike, and agile weapons exist and WILL be used. Make whatever trade offs you want but make them with the sure and certain knowledge that the Dec based swashbukler WILL be adding Dex to damage and they have the option of going with quite a low strength.,
I think some of us have major divergent opinions on what the swashbuckler should be and feel like.
I've seen suggestions to add bonuses to saving throws against Charm and Alcohol/Drugs/Poisons, for example - but I must object to this idea. I have to say that if it was implemented, I would immediately ignore these bonuses and even swap them if possible for an archetype.
To me, a swashbuckler is all about getting in trouble... yet swarming its own way out with agility, precise cinematic swordplay involving taunts, dirty tricks and feints, moving enough to avoid the strikes of big brutes, and using the sheer strength of its personality.A swashbuckler SHOULD get drunk, charmed, easily influenced and reckless enough to get involved in dangerous situations ; because that's what makes fun and interesting things happen, and cool/daring abilities being used.
He shouldn't get dominated or downed in a single SoD/SoS spell though - this would be highly anticlimatic and not fit well the whole daredevil persona.
Got it. You don't feel the saving throws are an issue and would immediately trade out bonuses to certain situations for archtypes. But wait...
(Hence why I suggested Cha-instead-of-Wis to Will saves to represent the strength of personality ; and a limited amounts of daily Reflex saves instead of Will and Fortitude saves to represent the slippery bugger.)
So I guess you were just trading them out because they are too weak? Because it sounds like replacing CHA for WIS on Will saves would also work against charms... Quite frankly, I would rather see Cha and Wis added to Will saves so that I'm not rewarded for tanking Wisdom the same way I am currently rewarded for tanking Charisma. Take away the Wis bonus to saves and you will see a lot of Wis 7 swashbucklers.
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In a way the Swashbuckler already has an ability to add dexterity to damage, but it's way up at 11th level.
Bleeding Wound (Ex): At 11th level, when the swashbuckler hits a living creature with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon attack, as a free action she can spend 1 panache point to have that attack deal extra bleed damage. The amount of bleed damage is equal to the swashbuckler’s Dexterity modifier. Alternatively, the swashbuckler can spend 2 panache points to deal 1 point of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution bleed damage (swashbuckler’s choice) instead. Creatures immune to sneak attacks are also immune to these types of bleed damage.
With signature deed available at the same level I'm pretty sure that (assuming dex does not get rolled into damage earlier), this will be a popular signature deed (along with pommel swipe and targeted strike). Since this is bleed damage, I'm unsure how a critical affects the damage, but it can increase damage significantly, particularly if the alternative is applied to con bleed. Personally, I think this ability should be allowed at a lower level, perhaps 5th or 7th.
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Put simply, the main job of a martial is to do damage. If the party's martial isn't doing that, then all of the tricks he can pull are just wasting everybody's time.What's the standard you feel needs to be met, though? Because I'm playing a swashbuckler right now, using a rapier, whose damage really seems to be just fine with the class as written. Hell, I even went with some parry/riposte action in the earlier levels to some effect (although not since I hit level 3, because giving up precise strike? Ain't nobody got time for that!), so I took Combat Reflexes too - not exactly a DPR boost - and things are still looking pretty solid.
Maybe you think the damage is too low, but in order for that to be more than pure opinion, I'd have to know what you think an acceptable amount of damage is.
It's not that the damage is too low. It's that, in order to get better at the martial role, the SB who prioritises Str is better then one who prioritises Dex. This leads to SB characters who emphasise Str to the detriment of Dex, and the class fails as a way to represent the swashbucklers of our shared imagination.
Dex to damage is not more powerful than Str to damage. Indeed, it's still less powerful given the lack of 1.5 x damage two-handed, and the fact that Str to attack and damage is completely free and Dex to attack and damage takes feats and/or special abilities while Str-based martials get to use their feats/special abilities to do more cool stuff!
I'm completely okay with changing Precise Strike so that when you account for Dex to damage the class won't do too much damage, but it must result in a class where players will be more motivated to improve the Dex score than improve the Str score.
This will make the swashbucklers we actually play in the game match the swashbuckler concept of our shared imagination.
TL;DR: not about damage total, but about swashbucklers being famously dextrous not famously strong.
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I still think its incredible that anyone sees this class as being inherently dex based in any way.
Why? Because it only gets light armor proficiency? Because it gets weapon finesse?
I mean, I can just grab armor proficiencies right? I cab precise strike my heavy pick wielded in two hands and power attack away.
With a 12 dex and a 5 charisma, my dwarven "swashbuckler" is a very effective fighter.... it hits like a truck, has all the same panache tricks and the same panache pool as any SB with a charisma less than 14. Its AC will be just fine in full plate...
I mean is that okay? Why is it that this is not only a good build, but a build that hands down beats the dexterous swashbuckler in every area except a few skills?
I also support the Cha to all/some saves idea. A little boost in power that wont make Dex fighters want to dip in the class.
I do think they should have something else to make them more useful offensively at lower levels that ISN'T reliant on damage. Perhaps a deed like this:
Wordplay: At 1st level, the swashbuckler can spend 1 panache point as a full-round action to make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a -2 penalty while taunting, mocking, and berating his opponent into acting rashly. This ability functions as an Intimidate check to demoralize an opponent, but it is not a fear effect. The swashbuckler rolls 1d20 and adds his swashbuckler level and his Charisma modifier to determine the Wordplay result. In addition to granting the shaken condition, the opponent will focus their attention on the swashbuckler for 1 round to the exclusion of his allies.
Take a closer look at the list of deeds. This is already in there, and cheaper than what you're proposing- Menacing Swordplay. I'd rather see it have a limit of "after your first attack each round while deals damage" than as a swift action after scoring a hit, because the general over-dependence of swifts means you can oddly enough only use it when you're getting lousy rolls and not doing much damage, but it's there.
I don't think it's cynical - I think it's rational. The argument has quite literally been going on for years; just take a look at the links MechE provided. Once you hit a certain point, continuing to try something that has failed repeatedly in the past becomes... well, let's just say "overly optimistic."
It's overly optimistic to ask for a rogue to be able to dump str and focus purely on dexterity. It is more than reasonable to expect it for a new class being built from the ground up to specifically be a generally dex based fighter, with some other major stat dependencies built in.
Plus, again, design philosophy. Every class, this one included, should be good enough on its own that you aren't looking to quick single level dips into bard of all things just to function properly. All swashbucklers really get as incentive to stick with the class all the way through as it stands are offsets to mitigate the nasty equipment selections they get for signing up.
Part One: This was a bit of an epiphany, but I think making making it so that Precise strike cannot exceed twice the dexterity modifier of the swashbuckler would force you to pick up some dex to keep the modifier early on, it would balance out against strength in the long wrong and make it a choice, rather than a much better damage choice to go strength.
Why are people so insistent that a pure melee class lose the capacity to do damage on par with every other melee class currently in the game? I haven't seen anyone worried about their damage output being too high who has actually tested the class out, and it doesn't happen when I crunch the numbers either. Again, this math where the pendulum slowly swings from the swash to being just a few points behind at 1 to a few ahead at 20 is already assuming both the swashbuckler and fighter are adding their primary stat to damage and using power attack, with the difference purely coming from using a two-handed weapon vs. using precise strike and committing all their panache to it.
Not to mention that the few points of bonus damage turn into a huge deficit of damage as soon as your fighting an elemental.
There is a lot of bad trades in this class.
I guess if you look on the bright side, your saves are so bad that you won't ever see the higher levels anyway... wait.
Well maybe instead of dex to damage the swashbuckler could get a bonus to damage with melee weapons that it can use weapon finesse with. The bonus too damage could be equal to half your swashbuckler level(max +10 at level 20).
I think Bravery should be swapped out for an ability like Swashbuckler's Knack, where each s washbuckler gets to choose an ability that scales with level at level 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18...How about being able to choose a single manoeuver (disarm, trip, etc.) at each of those levels (instead of Bravery)? It would allow the SB to do all the swashbuckly things without having to be even MADder with 13 Int or waste feats on the Combat Expertise tree.
Instead of Bravery, what about something like this? (forgive the clunkiness):
Favored Maneuvers (Ex): At 2nd level, a swashbuckler selects one of the following combat maneuvers: Dirty Trick, Disarm, or Trip. She gains a +1 (type?) bonus to her CMB and CMD to perform and resist, respectively, that maneuver.
At 6th level and every four levels thereafter, the swashbuckler may select an additional favored maneuver. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus to any one favored maneuver (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by +1.
@Dragon78:
Then we're getting back into the territory of "they can have that damage, it just can't come from Dex because reasons".
All the arguments on that subject are on the table, so let's start to focus on other areas that need work.
@Ambrosia:
Bravery is there to try to fix a real problem. Unfortunately it's like putting a band aid over the thermal exhaust port. I agree that the Swashbuckler should make better use of certain combat maneuvers, but they should be on the Panache mechanic. And a bonus to CMB that scales up at the speed of Bravery won't make up the gaping shortfall against enemy CMD.
Bravery needs to be replaced with a better solution to the same problem, such as Charisma to Will.
could work, as long as there was some language that specified that a favored maneuver did not provoke so that the class could avoid the intelligence buy in.
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So I guess you were just trading them out because they are too weak? Because it sounds like replacing CHA for WIS on Will saves would also work against charms... Quite frankly, I would rather see Cha and Wis added to Will saves so that I'm not rewarded for tanking Wisdom the same way I am currently rewarded for tanking Charisma. Take away the Wis bonus to saves and you will see a lot of Wis 7 swashbucklers.
Way to shorten my whole argument into fallacies - you may note I was the first to post in this thread, in between I put quite some time explaining what I'd like out of a swashbuckler, that includes recognizing the class needs better ST (my suggestion : Will as a low save but using Cha as its bonus and Ref-swap, more about this later)
To answer your question:
Nope, I'd like the Cha-replacing-Wis-to-Will bonus to apply :
- on all saves if this a stand-alone ability and the swash has low will progression (solving some issues at mid-to-high level and making Cha more important)
- my favorite option : Cha on all saves except charm and illusion if will is low progression ; the swash also receives a Reflex-instead-of-Will/Fortitude savig throw mechanic fueled by Panache against offensive effects targetting him. This option greatly improves Will saves against major SoD/SoS offenders while playing on the thematic weaknesses of a swashbuckling character, also rewarding high Cha. It also grants major life-saving abilities by allowing you to dash out of the path of spells targetting you/dodging the poisoned blade just fast enough to live and be awesome another day, favoring high Dex and playing on the class's best saving throw in a cool twist since the "worst" save can become the best for an instant (totally in line with a swashbuckler reversing the odds at the most climatic moment - it could even be balanced to "as many panache you can spend in the day" by allowing spells to target another creature if the swash dodges them.
But even with the second option, I wouldn't want additional bonuses against what I feel are thematic weaknesses for the class, the same way a cumulative bonus to Fort would be lame for a wizard.
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Well maybe instead of dex to damage the swashbuckler could get a bonus to damage with melee weapons that it can use weapon finesse with. The bonus too damage could be equal to half your swashbuckler level(max +10 at level 20).
the swashbuckler doesn't need anymore damage it needs for dexterity to be tied to its main function (killing things) and at the moment... it isn't. the fix you suggested would still have the 16 str 12 dex swashbuckler in all ways superior to the 12 str 16 dex swashbuckler.
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I mean, I can just grab armor proficiencies right? I cab precise strike my heavy pick wielded in two hands and power attack away.
Precise Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, as long as she has at least 1 panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to her damage roll. To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield.
I'm pretty sure wielding a pick in two hands violates the "cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand" clause. Personally I think the language should be changed to read "a piercing melee weapon wielded in one hand".
With a 12 dex and a 5 charisma, my dwarven "swashbuckler" is a very effective fighter.... it hits like a truck, has all the same panache tricks and the same panache pool as any SB with a charisma less than 14. Its AC will be just fine in full plate...
With this build your dwarf is thematically a fighter, not a swashbuckler. Does it work? In combat only. Regarding pinache, you would lose recovery and nimble in heavy armor, and I'd like to suggest, in order to dissuade quick dips in this class, that more pinache abilities (such as Derring-Do and Precise Strike) should require the swashbuckler to be in light or no armor as well.
I mean is that okay? Why is it that this is not only a good build, but a build that hands down beats the dexterous swashbuckler in every area except a few skills?
Again, in combat only. Also, try jumping that 10 foot gap as a dwarf in heavy armor, or smooth-talking anything with that terrible charisma. If the environment is anything other than a level field that dwarf will have problems.
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I still think its incredible that anyone sees this class as being inherently dex based in any way.
Why? Because it only gets light armor proficiency? Because it gets weapon finesse?I mean, I can just grab armor proficiencies right? I cab precise strike my heavy pick wielded in two hands and power attack away.
With a 12 dex and a 5 charisma, my dwarven "swashbuckler" is a very effective fighter.... it hits like a truck, has all the same panache tricks and the same panache pool as any SB with a charisma less than 14. Its AC will be just fine in full plate...
I mean is that okay? Why is it that this is not only a good build, but a build that hands down beats the dexterous swashbuckler in every area except a few skills?
... because we think of what we'd like in a swashbuckler in the final version, not the current one, which has already been proven to miss what the class should ultimately feel like.
The swash needs to be primarily Cha and Dex based, though we should be able to play off PA or Dervish Dance or a rapier and a buckler or TWF or a pickaxe without being crippingly gimped one way or another.
(And if -really- the final version misses the mark, well, there is still the 3pp Swordmaster for everyone not playing PFS since it seems to be so fun and versatile to play.)
I still think its incredible that anyone sees this class as being inherently dex based in any way.
Why? Because it only gets light armor proficiency? Because it gets weapon finesse?I mean, I can just grab armor proficiencies right? I cab precise strike my heavy pick wielded in two hands and power attack away.
With a 12 dex and a 5 charisma, my dwarven "swashbuckler" is a very effective fighter.... it hits like a truck, has all the same panache tricks and the same panache pool as any SB with a charisma less than 14. Its AC will be just fine in full plate...
I mean is that okay? Why is it that this is not only a good build, but a build that hands down beats the dexterous swashbuckler in every area except a few skills?
... because we think of what we'd like in a swashbuckler in the final version, not the current one, which has already been proven to miss what the class should ultimately feel like.
The swash needs to be primarily Cha and Dex based, though we should be able to play off PA or Dervish Dance or a rapier and a buckler or TWF or a pickaxe without being crippingly gimped one way or another.
(And if -really- the final version misses the mark, well, there is still the 3pp Swordmaster for everyone not playing PFS since it seems to be so fun and versatile to play.)
The issue is, in my mind, that while it may be obvious to you and me that the current swashbuckler rules do not effectively support or encourage the swashbuckler we are hoping for (which, to me, is the description Paizo wrote up for the class), the responses from the design team so far seem to indicate that they do not see it.
They ask for playtesting (I have done some, and am working up a WAAAAY too long post reviewing the experience) because they hope that once you play the class you will see that "AHA! They DID nail it!" Except that they didn't. The only way I can think to hammer that point home is to stress upon the better, non-Dex/Cha builds.
And going back to your previous post on Cha-INSTEAD-of-Wis-to-WIll saves, I would like to hear your thoughts on why you would take Wisdom out of the equation. Also, keep in mind I will be throwing the "But replacing Str with Dex for damage apparently marginalizes Str too much" point back at you if you cannot sell me on why making Wisdom add to nothing but skill checks is a reasonable option. At least Str would still be needed to carry a sword and get to PA. I'm all for making Charisma more desirable, but having a stat with almost no penalty for tanking (sort of like Charisma now) does not seem like a good idea to me.
I mean, I can just grab armor proficiencies right? I cab precise strike my heavy pick wielded in two hands and power attack away.Precise Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, as long as she has at least 1 panache point, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon (though not natural weapon attacks), adding her swashbuckler level to her damage roll. To use this deed, a swashbuckler cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield.
I'm pretty sure wielding a pick in two hands violates the "cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand" clause. Personally I think the language should be changed to read "a piercing melee weapon wielded in one hand".
Unfortunately, as written, the two-handed pick/shortspear/morningstar/trident approach is completely valid. Both Lord_Malkov and I agree that this should be clarified and removed as an option, although this makes a weak class weaker.
With a 12 dex and a 5 charisma, my dwarven "swashbuckler" is a very effective fighter.... it hits like a truck, has all the same panache tricks and the same panache pool as any SB with a charisma less than 14. Its AC will be just fine in full plate...With this build your dwarf is thematically a fighter, not a swashbuckler. Does it work? In combat only. Regarding pinache, you would lose recovery and nimble in heavy armor, and I'd like to suggest, in order to dissuade quick dips in this class, that more pinache abilities (such as Derring-Do and Precise Strike) should require the swashbuckler to be in light or no armor as well.
Combat is the swashbuckler's job, as any alternate fighter should be. As for Nimble, that ability is only in the class to make up for the lack of heavy armor proficiency, so nothing is lost. Losing Recovery is only mildly regrettable, since the immediate action denies access to the double damage Precise Strike or Pommel Strike action next turn. All this does is make the decision easier.
I mean is that okay? Why is it that this is not only a good build, but a build that hands down beats the dexterous swashbuckler in every area except a few skills?Again, in combat only. Also, try jumping that 10 foot gap as a dwarf in heavy armor, or smooth-talking anything with that terrible charisma. If the environment is anything other than a level field that dwarf will have problems.
Again, a martial class is supposed to be good at combat. Still, there is nothing stopping the dwarf from maxing out the Acrobatics skill, so that 10ft jump won't be so bad, especially by mid-level (Derring-Do also helps here). It's not as if the dwarf is tanking Dex to single digits. As for level fields, I can't figure out what you mean here. Dwarves are great at balance checks, and the skill system in d20 makes most checks marginal at mid-to-high level. I'm still scratching my head on this one. Please provide an example.
It is true that a 5 CHA dwarf won't be so great at smooth-talking early on, but the d20 skill system works in his favor here and makes all of these things possible later. That is the one point that I will concede to you.
Ultimately, the out of combat stuff isn't that much worse off, and the difference gets less and less as levels increase. The in combat stuff, however, is majorly different and that difference never goes away.
I'm hoping the Paizo team can do some creative thinking like with the Arcanist rewrite to turn this into a viable Dex/Cha character, since I think it may need something that drastic.
And going back to your previous post on Cha-INSTEAD-of-Wis-to-WIll saves, I would like to hear your thoughts on why you would take Wisdom out of the equation. Also, keep in mind I will be throwing the "But replacing Str with Dex for damage apparently marginalizes Str too much" point back at you if you cannot sell me on why making Wisdom add to nothing but skill checks is a reasonable option.
That's currently the case of Cha for any class whose class features are not directly based on Cha... And oddly enough, even for some of those whose Cha is supposedly an important attribute (Clerics, Rogues, Arcanists and Swashbucklers can safely dump Cha and still be completely fine. Sorcerer can use archetypes to base their casting on Int or Wis, making Cha completely unnecessary)
Why ca't Wis be marginalized some times? Should every class need every attribute?
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And going back to your previous post on Cha-INSTEAD-of-Wis-to-WIll saves, I would like to hear your thoughts on why you would take Wisdom out of the equation. Also, keep in mind I will be throwing the "But replacing Str with Dex for damage apparently marginalizes Str too much" point back at you if you cannot sell me on why making Wisdom add to nothing but skill checks is a reasonable option. At least Str would still be needed to carry a sword and get to PA. I'm all for making Charisma more desirable, but having a stat with almost no penalty for tanking (sort of like Charisma now) does not seem like a good idea to me.
- Because the swashbuckler as written badly needs a dump stat to become less MAD
- Because "Wisdom" is the last quality I would associate with any swashbuckler ever- Because even Wis-based skills don't fit with the thematic
- Because the fighter can basically dump Int and Charisma without much prejudice
- Because "resisting mental control out of sheer pride" is awesome and swashbuckl-ey
Since I want the classes I play to not be incredibly MAD, to have mechanics fitting their thematic, to actually feel like the way they are supposed to be, and plainly be awesome, I rhknk you'll unserstand the fil rouge behind my mind on objective AND subjective reasons to make Wisdom a Swash dump stat the same way I want my gunslingers to have accute senses ans son't want my barbarians to be intelligent.
So I have read like 10 posts total of this thread so yeah.
Anywho, I built a Swashbuckler for a playtest later tonight (I was going to do an Investigator, but decided that was pointless since the revised version will remove Sneak Attack and replace it with something else).
Seems to me the class has more of an AC problem than a damage problem, assuming you keep one Panache point at all times (and don't fight any elementals, of course).
Or, at least, it has a problem in that damage and AC are a big tradeoff with each other. Kind of like a Barbarian, but without the ludicrous HP totals and DR to back it up.
Does that fit in with the other builds provided or do I just suck?
Also the saves are terrible but that's kinda expected because it has Rogue saves for some reason.