Perhaps, but rehashing all them arguments isn't going to help the Swashbuckler much.
It's one of them issues where the opposing sides don't want to see the other side's PoV, so I'm going to stay out of that debate as much as I can.
I guess I could link this post, where the guy who got Agile and Dervish Dance into the game talks about it as well as the design team's view.
I just wanted to point out the historical evidence for why continuing to clamor for Dex to Damage might not be the best use of time for working out the kinks of this class.
There are bigger fish to fry with this class, and the hyperfocus on this one aspect that, based on all available evidence we have, won't change, is most likely not best for the class as a whole.
And with that, I'm out of this thread once again. To the investigator!
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'cuz I don't like marginalizing stuff.
Its only stat warfare when dex melee fights back!
Well you still need str to carry stuff so anyone who has only 5-9 str will have to hire someone to carry there treasure. I am sure that will end well;) Otherwise I am all for a fighter class that focuses on dex and cha, I will final have a class for my catfolk that more martial then skill monkey or spellcaster.
I love the idea of dex for damage and wouldn't mind if you have to wait till level 7 to get such an ability. I also feel that this class should have 6+int skill points.
@Prince of Knives — You didn't answer my question at all. You explained the means by which someone moves up and down on the scale (by having or lacking the ability to deal with complex enemy abilities). Presumably, there's a line below which a class needs too much help to deal with the complexity you refer to and above which a class perhaps ceases to need to be in a party, while the line itself is "just right". I'm not asking what makes someone end up above or below or at the line. I'm asking how you determine where the line is.
To put it another way, you seem to see the swashbuckler poorly. Presumably, if asked for specifics, you would either say "It lacks ability X" or "Its numeric value Y is below benchmark Z". My question would be (in the case of the former) "Why is lacking X a shortcoming rather than having X being exceptional?" or (in the case of the latter) "How did you determine that Z is such-and-such a number and not some higher or lower number instead?"
Sorry >.> I misunderstood your question.
In some ways 'the line' is hard to find and can depend greatly on an individual game. My preferences for complex, iconic enemies and antagonists certainly helps set where my line is, but...
Hrm. I'm having a hard time answering this question.
What I usually do when determining a class's relative balance is compare it against T3 classes and see if its capabilities are roughly equivalent. If this was 3.5, for example, I'd compare it to Warblade/Swordsage/Crusader, Beguiler, Factotum, and Dread Necromancer. What I'm generally looking for when asking about "Capability X" and if having it is exceptional or lacking it is a shortcoming is, "How badly does this class need X to do its job/fulfill its archetype?"
In this specific case, the dex-to-damage argument, the answer is "Very badly." Swashbucklers in fiction (such as the Count of Monte Cristo, the Three Musketeers, Prince Charming, Blackbeard, etc, so forth) are agile, speedy combatants that emphasize mobility, quick reflexes, and split-second wits. Lacking Dex to damage makes it hard to justify pumping Dex which in turn makes it hard to resemble the Swashbuckler archetype.
Argh I'm still not sure I'm actually addressing the question you're asking. Please bear with me, I'm minus coffee plus insomnia here.
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The swashbuckler should be Dex-based! If you want Str-based, use any other martial class!
If the swashbuckler doesn't grant Dex (instead of Str) to damage, for whatever reason, then swashbucklers will either be Str-based to save a feat and do more damage anyway, or take Dervish Dance by hook or by crook.
Neither of these solutions succeeds in the swashbucklers we make to play the game resemble the swashbucklers from our shared imaginations.
The solution is to grant Dex to damage, and balance the DPR of the class with this in mind.
If we want a class that results in dextrous swashbucklers then we should have game mechanics that reward Dex over Str when fighting.
If we want charismatic swashbucklers then we should have mechanics that reward high Cha, and don't reward dumping Cha!
Right now, Str-based Cha-dumped swashbucklers do the martial job better than high Dex/Cha swashbucklers, and Dex-based martials are better off being other classes.
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Similar things have already been suggested.
By me, for one. : )
The idea was that it's like Power Attack, except:-
• a class ability, not a feat
• not Str-based
• scales with levels of swashbuckler, not generic BAB
• multiplies on a crit
• scales at +1/2, or at +3/4 (like 2HF) if using single weapon
My ideas on how to fix the Finnese/Dex-to-Damage problem. This is independant of Precise Strike
Swashbuckler Finesse (Ex): At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she gains a +4 bonus to her CMD on disarm, steal, and sunder attempts against light or one-handed weapons usable with Weapon Finesse. At 3rd level, she may add her Dexterity modifier in place of her Strength modifier on damage rolls made with light or one-handed weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.
Moves Finesse to 1st level where I think everybody universally agrees it is needed, but prevents too much front-loading by keeping the CMD bonuses at 2nd level. It also removes the issue with not actually having Weapon Finesse, which is dumb.
Putting the dex-to-damage at 3rd level keeps people from dipping into Swashbuckler just to get it. By the time you're three levels into a class, you can't really be "cherry-picking" it. It also coincides with the level the Precise Strike deed becomes available.
Essentially, a low-level Swashbuckler will be able to hit, but may not be doing much damage.... until level 3. Then bam, dex-to-damage and Precise Strike at the same time.
No comment on my "Swashbuckler's tactical Power Attack/Precise Strike" suggestion ? Damn, and I thought I was being clever today.
I think it shouldn't cost a Panache point and have a penalty. But it's definitely something to think about.
Something else to think about - If there was more incentive to use Parry and Riposte we'd see Power Attack used less often. People might even skip taking it, because it's now hurting your defense as well as your attack bonus, and failed Parries don't give you those extra Riposte attacks.
And I still think that Dex-to-Damage needs to happen for the reasons we've repeated ad nauseam. Even if it has to come at the expense of Precise Strike.
Nah, they'll take Power Attack anyways for when they need to burn down a large single target.
Yeah... no one in their right mind would actually use strength as a dump stat. 1, you would be tanking your CMD (and cmb for weaponless maneuvers but that isn't a big deal) and 2, you still need a 13 strength for power attack.
Fighters don't tank dex, swashbucklers wouldn't tank strength. Power attack is still a need.
Honestly, if you just take away precise strike and with it the restriction on only using one piercing weapon. Then add dex to damage on finesse-able weapons (sans getting 1.5x when using two-hands) then you actually open up options.
The dual-wielding swashbuckler with a rapier and dagger becomes a viable build. Double sawtooth sabres can work. Swashbucklers can grab light improvised weapons and crack away in bar fights (or belaying pins on the deck of a ship or whatever else)
They could also simply use a buckler and a rapier for the better AC and iconic feel (and the reduced feat expenditure)
I would rather see the swashbuckler be a truly dex-based fighter than see it as a burly one-weapon fighter.
That and the saving throws are going to be a real problem.
My suggestion would be to add charisma to will saves vs. compulsion and fear (but nothing else, these are thematically appropriate) and to give the swashbuckler a bonus on saves against poison (so they can drink like fish and survive poisons in the front line)
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Here is a comment: Can i still buy 13 STR and use Precise Strike, Tactical Power and regular Power Attack? Also, Power Attack is almost a feat tax for melee characters anyways since it seems they all take it at some point. Rather than give Swashbucklers a free version (or stackable) why not give them a class ability to use DEX as a replacement for the pre-reqs of combat feats? err... are there are other combat feats that have a STR requirement? mind blanking...
Sure. The idea would be to make it so that you don't need to pick Power Attack at all. The wording makes it possible to still pick it though.
You could absolutely pick Str and PA and still use a precise thrust - though you would have a reduced precision damage bonus when wielding your weapon in two hands and thus a reduced tactical damage output.
6th level, 20 Dex, +1 rapier in one hand, tactical hit (-2/+6):
+10/+5 ; 1d6 + 6(Pre) + 1(Mag) + 6(Tactical) = 1d6+7(+6) 15-20x2
6th level, 20 Dex, +1 scimitar in two hands, PA + tactical hit (-2/+4):
+8/+3 ; 1d6 + 3(Pre) + 1(Mag) + 6(PA) + 4(Tactical) = 1d6+11(+3) 15-20x2
=> The PA build deals 4 more damage for -2 to attack (exactly the balance of PA !) ; he would still need 13 Str and 1 feat AND 1 panache for this attack roll, meaning he would be less versatile in other areas. This bonus damage can be multiplied on a crit, making the deal even more of a high-risk/high-reward style for brute swashbucklers.
Note that he could offset some penalties by THing the first attack of his round then one-handing the remaining attacks (great incentive for longswords and dueling swords here). Also, the braggard archetype variant would have more use out of this feat.
This way it's balanced for mini-maxers and newbies alike because it's both simpler, stronger against low AC yet less abusable.
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Similar things have already been suggested.
By me, for one. : )
The idea was that it's like Power Attack, except:-
• a class ability, not a feat
• not Str-based
• scales with levels of swashbuckler, not generic BAB
• multiplies on a crit
• scales at +1/2, or at +3/4 (like 2HF) if using single weapon
Lol yeah, so basically I stole it without even knowing it, sorry !
With 1000+ posts I think this thread has already received all the swashbuckler feedback needed for the class to become the ACG's most awesome.
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We're getting a lot of demands for Dex to damage, but they mostly seem to be from a small handful of the same people who are looking at this class strictly in terms of DPR and how they match up to a fully optimized fighter or barbarian. I'd like to voice my dislike for this idea, and I'd like to see if there are others out there that agree. Issues with precise strike aside, if you are against dex to damage, let's hear your voice.
No dex to damage.
That and the saving throws are going to be a real problem. My suggestion would be to add charisma to will saves vs. compulsion and fear (but nothing else, these are thematically appropriate) and to give the swashbuckler a bonus on saves against poison (so they can drink like fish and survive poisons in the front line)
I can get behind the Charisma modifier bonus on Compulsion and Fear effects as that would not marginalize Wisdom, but would incentivize putting a few extra points into Charisma when possible.
I would actually take this a step further and suggest a complete replacement for bravery that better fit the theme of the Swashbuckler.
• At 2nd level, a Swashbuckler adds his Charisma modifier to saving throws versus Poison and alcohol related effects.
• At Xth level, a Swashbuckler adds his Charisma modifier to saving throws versus Fear effects.
• At Xth level, a Swashbuckler adds his Charisma modifier to saving throws versus Charm effects.
• At Xth level, a Swashbuckler adds his Charisma modifier to saving throws versus Compulsion effects.
(Note that "Xth" level refers to incremental ticks which could be the same as the current Bravery, but with each ability given a different name or could be changed to any levels needed - 2, 6, 10, 14, etc.)
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MechE:
I'm behind this idea. This seems like a better suggestion then Charisma to all saves. I think they could be combined too.
2nd level, Charisma bonus to saves vs. Poison, Alchohol, and Fear
xth level, Charm and Compulsion.
xth level, immune to a number of poisons equal to their intelligence modifier +1 (minimum 1) ;)
xth level, maybe use pinache to reduce fear effects by 1 step?
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Issues with precise strike aside, if you are against dex to damage, let's hear your voice.
No dex to damage.
Already said it a thousand times, but I'd rather keep Precise Strike and have cool abilities to match damage and synergize with critical hits - especially for non-conventional weapons. There are tons of ways to make Dex and Cha more important without adding it do damage.
If my last posts showed how someone with a bit of game design experience could get around the current issues with cool balanced features, be sure that a professional Paizo designer can do it better if wants to (and I'd enjoy that over a lifeless Dex-to-damage).
• At Xth level, a Swashbuckler adds his Charisma modifier to saving throws versus Charm effects.
Silly, a swashbuckler always fails againt charm effects by design !
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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We're getting a lot of demands for Dex to damage, but they mostly seem to be from a small handful of the same people who are looking at this class strictly in terms of DPR and how they match up to a fully optimized fighter or barbarian. I'd like to voice my dislike for this idea, and I'd like to see if there are others out there that agree. Issues with precise strike aside, if you are against dex to damage, let's hear your voice.
No dex to damage.
Just as long as it doesn't become a better idea to play a STR-based swashbuckler than a DEX-based one. I don't need a DEX swash's DPR to be above a certain number, it just needs to be above that of a STR swash.
That and the saving throws are going to be a real problem. My suggestion would be to add charisma to will saves vs. compulsion and fear (but nothing else, these are thematically appropriate) and to give the swashbuckler a bonus on saves against poison (so they can drink like fish and survive poisons in the front line)I can get behind the Charisma modifier bonus on Compulsion and Fear effects as that would not marginalize Wisdom, but would incentivize putting a few extra points into Charisma when possible.
I would actually take this a step further and suggest a complete replacement for bravery that better fit the theme of the Swashbuckler.
• At 2nd level, a Swashbuckler adds his Charisma modifier to saving throws versus Poison and alcohol related effects.
• At Xth level, a Swashbuckler adds his Charisma modifier to saving throws versus Fear effects.
• At Xth level, a Swashbuckler adds his Charisma modifier to saving throws versus Charm effects.
• At Xth level, a Swashbuckler adds his Charisma modifier to saving throws versus Compulsion effects.(Note that "Xth" level refers to incremental ticks which could be the same as the current Bravery, but with each ability given a different name or could be changed to any levels needed - 2, 6, 10, 14, etc.)
huh.
That's pretty cool.
You could even do it like a weapon training/favored enemy progression.
Since they all have different names, you could have things like:
Hard Drinker: +1 bonus on saves vs. poison. This bonus doubles when resisting the effects of alchohol.
Casanova: +1 bonus on Will saves versus Charm effects.
Uncanny Confidence: +1 bonus on Will saves versus Fear effects.
Braggadocio: +1 bonus on Will saves versus Compulsion effects.
Free Spirit: +1 bonus to saving throws against Paralysis effects, Entangle effects, and any spell that reduces movement.
You can select one of these options at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter (4, 8, 12, 16). Each time you select an ability after 4th you can also increase the bonus provided by one of these abilities by +1. This can be the ability you just selected.
I just want to talk about something other than "Up the damage!"
So would I, believe me. The perennial problem is, how does a mundane melee fighter contribute in ways other than hit point damage?
Combat maneuvers are one way. But as we've seen, in order to be reliable and effective, the class feature would have to flat-out ignore the rules.
Qinggong Monk is another way. Obviously the Swashbuckler would get a different set of "spells" fueled by Panache: Those that could reasonably be made (Ex) abilities. PCs are superheroes at mid-high level anyway, so why not?
WotC's eventual answer was the Book of Weeaboo Fightin' Magicks Nine Swords. It wasn't a perfect solution, but it was a start. An acknowledgement of the problem.
But any of the above approaches wouldn't be fair to Fighters who, even with all the new material printed since Core, still have to work with the regular flawed maneuver rules. And they still can't do anything if it can't be gained via a feat.
The pattern that's starting to emerge goes as follows:
- We want the Swashbuckler to do interesting things
- In order for those interesting things to actually work, the Swashbuckler's class feature has to "break the rules"
- "Why does the Swashbuckler get to break the rules?", the Fighters ask
- The Swashbuckler can't have interesting things. Back to your DPR optimization.
I don't really care if Swashbucklers get Dexterity to damage. I will say, that if any class out there should get the treatment: it should be the Swashbuckler, but I think Precise Strike is a reasonable alternative to improving damage.
I think there are more issues with Parry and Riposte than with whether or not they get one very specific ability that has dominated this board for quite a while now. I would actually recommend making Riposte a higher level ability. Parry should absolutely remain at level one, but Riposte could be bumped to level 4 (imo). I think it would give people an ability to play a non-human swashbuckler, as it would decrease the sense that they need Combat Reflexes at 1st level to make the most of their abilities. Additionally, while I'm not a fencer, I've taken several classes in fencing and I remember parrying being the first lesson we learned, while a riposte was much harder to do and do well. Lastly, I think this would open up the opportunity to give Swashbuckler Finesse at first level.
Again, I would also like to see more reparte and mobility worked into the rules. I think a lot of it would be role play, but I think there's an opportunity to use the rules to really encourage and enhance the Swashbuckler to play in a swashbuckling fashion. S/he should swing from chandeliers, make mock of his enemies, sweep the object of his/her affections off of their feet, and wear a crooked smile while doing so. (again, imo)
Please return to arguing about Dex to damage if you must.
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What about the level 2 finesse ability adding DEX to hit in addition to STR? That way you can have balanced STR/DEX (I'm a huge fan of this), and do respectable damage with your medium/low STR bonus to damage, plus Precise Strikes, and still hit often? (Edit: I'm not all about the damage; it's just easily quantifiable.)
(I should note: if DEX to damage does happen, I'm going to give in and join the crowd; but I like the balanced STR/DEX concept, it just could use some help.).
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Just as long as it doesn't become a better idea to play a STR-based swashbuckler than a DEX-based one. I don't need a DEX swash's DPR to be above a certain number, it just needs to be above that of a STR swash.
Can we fix that by only allowing precise strike to work on melee attacks using swashbuckler finesse (i.e., they must be melee attacks that use Dex to hit)?
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Any suggestions on increasing survability for the swashbuckler? The best hope it looks like I have at the moment is pray for a high dice roll and use parry.
Parry, at the moment, is pretty awful. In the little playtest that we ran, the swashbuckler used it like 8-9 times throughout the day and not once did it actually covert a hit into a miss.
This is just a bad ability.
The swashbuckler, in this case, was running a 24 AC at level 7. Fought some CR 3 ogres. Well those ogres only have a +7 to hit, so they only hit on a 17-20 (20% of the time). The swashbuckler had a +13 to hit when power attacking, so here is what happens.
Ogre attacks
Swash declares parry and spends a panache.
right off the bat there is an 80% chance that his panache was wasted because the Ogre just missed.
Then, if the ogre does hit, the swashbuckler is looking at having to beat a 24-27 with a +13.
So, taking the average there of 25.5, that means that the swashbuckler needs to get (on average) a roll of 13 on the D20 to parry... so he has an average chance here of 40% to successfully parry.
This reduces the odds of the Ogre hitting, and we get this result: The ogre now has only a 12% chance of hitting the swashbuckler.
This means that there is only an 8% chance that the swashbuckler's parry would actually turn a successful hit into a miss, so 92% of the time it will not make any difference.
Furthermore, the Ogre's hit chance only dropped by 8%, so Parry in this case is equivalent to +1.3 points of AC.
Not worth a point of panache.
This is a great idea in many ways, but it needs to work differently. Even just gaining +4 AC versus that incoming attack would almost always be better than using Parry.
Lets look at a big nasty monster that we also used in the playtest, a Bullette. The usefulness of parry is marginalized against creatures that have a low hit chance, so lets move to something nastier.
The bulette charges with its nasty pounce leap, and the swashbuckler attempts to parry that first attack.
Bulette attack bonus +14
Swash AC: 24
Hit chance: 55%
So, the bulette will hit on a roll between 10 and 20, average of 15, with a +14 this means an average parry DC of 15+14+1 to beat the attack roll. SO the swashbuckler, with his +13 to hit, needs to get a 30 on average. SO he needs a 17+ to parry, which is a 20% chance.
So, combining these we have a 55% chance the the Bulette hits, and a 20% chance that a hit is parried, so there is an 11% chance that the parry is successful and turns a hit into a miss. Again, this means an 89% chance that the panache point is wasted either on a miss or a failed parry.
Parry, IMO, is a broken feature.
EDIT: Actually I forgot the -4 for the Bulette being big, so the swashbuckler would, in fact, need a 20 on average. So his parry chance is down to 5%, and the total effect of parry in this case would be a 2.75% reduction in hit chance, so parry would be a wasted point 97.25% of the time.
Yeah... no one in their right mind would actually use strength as a dump stat. ...stuff...
Reynard De'Bonaire- Kitsune bucklebarder
Str-5
Dex-17
con-14
int-12
wis-14
Cha-16Traits: Blade of mercy Muscle of the society
This is a PFS character, and my SOP with DM credit is to say pbthtthths to first level.
1st: Swashbuckler 1 Extra Panache
2nd: Dawnflower Dervish Dancing Bard 1
3rd: Swashbuckler 2 Combat reflexes
4th: Swashbuckler 3
5th: Swashbuckler 4 Weapon focus scimitar(bonus)/Weapon specialization ScimitarKitsunes were made to buckle swashes. Dex, Cha, medium size to avoid the riposte penalty, and they have a bite as icing on the cake. Since bite is a PBS weapon you can use weapon finesse with it and crit fish with it on full attacks.
Dawnflower dervish effectively gets you two feats (dervish dance and the otherwise redundant weapon finesse you would need to get dervish dance) on top of that you shore up the characters bad will save , and get. The only time i'm kicking myself for doing this is 5th level, right before getting level to damage. I'm missing 1 to attack, which I make up with weapon focus, which i otherwise wouldn't have.
with 5 penache i can parry/riposte twice and still keep one in the pool in between crits.
I predict that a party of Swashbuckelers will be like a meeting at the muscular dystrophy association. if being in there rigth mind is needed to play the game way too many of us are not qualified:)
I like the ideas there is about using Cha for will saves but i think that it should be a deed costing a P point. Then a bit later There could be one that allower Dex to Fortitude(worming out in the last instant kinda thing)
A thing that raises the roof of max dex on armor migth also be nice so high level Swashbucklers could benefit from wering that light armor.
Pehaps somthing going with Nimble.
So, more Parry theorycrafting, since our playtest showed that it was a complete waste of time. Riposte, OTOH, is actually not bad, because the target missing on their own doesn't change whether or not you beat their attack roll.
Lets go as even as we can. Using our playtest swashbuckler against his mirror image.
Hit bonus +13
HP: 64
AC 24
Level 7
(He had 5 panache with extra panache and a charisma headband)
White Hat Swashbuckler is our Parrying/Riposting guy. He always parries the first attack and uses riposte when he can.
Black Hat swashbuckler doesn't use it and only spends panache on precise strike for his first attack. We will act as if both are acting at the same time so no initiative advantage.
BLACK HAT SWASHBUCKLER
Black Hat Swashbuckler attacks +13 vs. 24 AC. He spends a panache to double his precise strike damage.
Hit chance: 50%, average hit roll of 15.5
White Hat declares parry, and rolls. His DC is 15.5+13+1 = 29.5
He needs a roll of 17+ to parry successfully. (20% chance)
So, Black Hat has his hit chance reduced to 40%.
His damage is 1d6+21 with doubled precision damage. Avg: 24.5
DPR vs. Parrying White Hat = 9.8
For his second attack he has a 25% hit chance and deals avg 17.5, so that adds 4.375 DPR
Black Hat's Total DPR = 14.175
WHITE HAT SWASHBUCKLER
White hat swashbuckler attacks +13 vs. 24 AC.
Hit chance: 50%, average hit roll of 15.5
White hat has a 45% chance to have met the conditions for riposte by parrying Black Hat (effectively this is just a straight opposed roll wherein mr. White Hat has to roll higher). That riposte has a 50% chance to hit, and deals 17.5 damage on a hit. This adds 3.94 DPR to White hat at the Cost of 1 panache.
White Hats regular attacks account for 8.75 dpr and 4.375 dpr respectively.
White Hat's total DPR = 17.06
So, by spending 2 panache per round instead of 1, White Hat can have better DPR than by spending 1 point to double his precise strike.
Of course, White Hat can only do this twice with his 5 pt panache pool before being locked out, while Black Hat can go 4 rounds doubling precise strike every round.
With each having 64 HP
After round 1 W.H. has 50hp left and B.H. has 47
After round 2 W.H. has 36hp left, and B.H. has 30.
Now W.H. is out of panache. B.H.'s DPR goes up to appx 17, and W.H.'s DPR goes down to 13.
So.
After round 3 W.H. has 19hp left, and B.H. has 17.
After round 4 W.H. has 2hp left and B.H. has 4
Now B.H is also out of panache, and both swashbucklers are KO'd on the next round.
So, parry/riposte ins't THAT bad. Okay, the Parry part is, but the Riposte part is quite good. If they change this combo to not cost 2 panache, then it will be very good. Even though the parry ability won't change the outcome of an attack 90% of the time, it is similar to having a +2 ac increase, which is small but relevant.
The chances of getting a "successful parry" are generally pretty decent, (unless the opponent is large) and getting an additional attack is ALWAYS a good thing.
Functionally, since parry is fairly useless for defense, the best bet would be to parry a monster's weakest attack in order to get riposte, and to look at parry as ONLY a way to get an extra attack. Double your precise strike damage will never be better than your regular attack damage, so riposte actually looks OKAY.
If the parry fails, well at least you only spent half the resources on that gamble. If it succeeds, you are also grabbing another opportunity to generate a crit and therefor a panache. In this little scenario, a riposte would have a 15% chance of being a confirmed crit, so not too bad right?
I am coming around to this immediate action usage as a good thing. If you only have to spend 1 panache on parry, it will likely turn out to be a better use of the panache AND the swift action than doubling your precise strike damage.
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Google: if you want to see a penachey parry riposte build look up to Reynard
Having done so, I don't think this is a character that could actually be played up from level 1.
At first level, you're taking a feat that does not exist, and while I realize you said you didn't bother trying to play it that low, you're sticking yourself with attacks that have a -2 to hit for 1d6-3 damage... and a need to grab a weapon other than the one you're going to use from there out.
The sensible way to go would be to take the Dawnflower Dervish level first then transfer over but... the fact that this really is the only sensible way to go here begs the question of why anyone is worried about single level swash dips when this archetype is on the table.
Going forward, I don't see this as being especially playable. Your light load caps out at 16 lbs. so... what? Are you just forgoing armor (and for that matter, clothing) entirely here? Your AC is only a 14 (assuming a buckler) for the first few levels, and you're losing out on the ability to boost armor and a shield separately. If you pick up a handy haversack at some point that only leaves 2 lbs. after a scimitar and buckler for magic items. Dex boosting belt presumably is the plan if you're really min-maxing this much, you really kinda need a cloak of resistance I find and... that's it for you. No more magic items unless they weigh nothing, or you throw on a str belt to hold them. Plus you don't have the stat requirements to grab a whole lot in the way of feats down the road.
And this is all with you grabbing a decidedly exotic race, and going with a 20-point PFS build instead of the 15-point standard like I was.
We're getting a lot of demands for Dex to damage, but they mostly seem to be from a small handful of the same people who are looking at this class strictly in terms of DPR and how they match up to a fully optimized fighter or barbarian. I'd like to voice my dislike for this idea, and I'd like to see if there are others out there that agree. Issues with precise strike aside, if you are against dex to damage, let's hear your voice.
No dex to damage.
Have you tried really building and playing the class yet? You really should actually make a character and see how it works before you start worrying about it doing too much damage.
This has nothing at all to do with damage optimization, it's about being able to actually effectively fill some sort of role in a party. Presumably the same role as a fighter, because that's what they most resemble and... they don't actually get any special abilities that don't involve standing next to things and hitting them with a weapon.
The damage benchmark I'm looking at with everything I'm saying isn't "most possible" it's "any full-BAB class before getting into feats and special class abilities." I'm not assuming the fighter being used as a point of comparison has a falchion because they're The Best Weapon or anything, it's just way easier to discuss the math on critical hits when comparing two weapons with the same range. I'm also looking at power attack in here, because A- it's the only other thing that comes to mind which cares how big your sword is, and B- I have honestly never seen anyone make a full-BAB character who didn't take power attack somewhere along the line that wasn't going for ranged combat (in which case they took deadly aim). It's the simplest thing you can do to make sure monsters stay worried about provoking AOOs from you, which is kind of the only reason the intelligent ones don't just circle around and attack the wizard.
As it stands, you can make a str based swashbuckler who, aside from kind of missing the point, doesn't really have anything better to do than stand in front of something and stab it until one of them dies, which will probably be the swash because she has no AC and an awful fort save. Or, you can try to make a dex based swashbuckler who stands in front of someone, and... really kinda makes no meaningful contribution to the fight of any kind. Maybe she can block a doorway for a while to give the rest of the party more time to work something out, but she can't really pull her weight in any fashion, and she's still rather death-prone.
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I'm in favor of parrying granting a base bonus to AC vs one attack (I think it should be +4, but without playtesting that bonus could prove too high). Opposed rolls are a pain and can slow down the game when someone's trying to figure out their bonus with all effects, conditions, size penalties, and whatnot going on.
-snip-
Except that katana in the UE and UC is a slashing weapon.
-edit ninja'd by tels
I think it is a shame that right now the swashbuckler finesse is limited but I can understand the inital slow pace by the design team.
And it is cool that you could make a desna swashbuckler as starknives are covered by the class feature. There would be less crits but with the precise strike they would have some impact.
It would be cool if they had a deed that would let them use enemies against each other. Imagine Zorro stepping between two guys and then ducking while they attack each other.
It would be cool if they had a deed that would let them use enemies against each other. Imagine Zorro stepping between two guys and then ducking while they attack each other.
So something like Unwitting Ally?
yeah, could work.
I also wouldn't mind replacing/augmenting parry with something like the Flowing Monk's redirection only with disarms instead of trips.
It would be cool if they had a deed that would let them use enemies against each other. Imagine Zorro stepping between two guys and then ducking while they attack each other.
So something like Unwitting Ally?
yeah, could work.
I also wouldn't mind replacing/augmenting parry with something like the Flowing Monk's redirection only with disarms instead of trips.
How about this?
Dastardly Dodge
(Can't think of a great name right now.)
Whenever you are flanked by two or more foes and one of them misses you, you may spend a deed and an attack of opportunity to redirect that attack into another adjacent enemy. Treat this as you attacking with the opponent's weapon (ignoring penalties for nonproficiency, size, etc.).
I apologize if this idea has a) been suggested already or b) is really fscking stupid.
To solve the dex to dmg problem and the "who cares about cha" problem, what if precise strike was changed to say something like:
"the swashbuckler gets dex to damage up too the amount of panache she has unspent in her pool. This damage is multiplied on a crit."
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Going forward, I don't see this as being especially playable. Your light load caps out at 16 lbs. so... what?
23 lbs. The muscle of the society trait raises the strength by 2 for carrying capacity.
Carrying:Scimitar 4
Jingasa 3
Belt 1
Cloak 1
Amulet of natural armor 0
Boots 1
Light xbow (darkwood) 2
Studded leather (Dark cloth) 10
Bolts 10 123
Plus you don't have the stat requirements to grab a whole lot in the way of feats down the road.There's always piranha strike instead of power attack if i want. The class has a built in trip feature in pommel strike, so expertise+imp. trip seems too expensive: i can just try to riposte the aoo and trip if i need to.
And this is all with you grabbing a decidedly exotic race, and going with a 20-point PFS build instead of the 15-point standard like I was.Which is kind of the point. Its got dex to damage, but even skipping the bad level and tweaking it out as much as i could its not coming anywhere near a two handed fighter or barbarian. At level 5 against the AC of 18 the dpr is