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Is there some reason a swashbuckler should NOT edge out a vanilla fighter in damage output? They have light armor, limited resources for their class abilities, and (no matter how the cat falls, this is likely) an odd weapon selection. They ought to get something.
I don't think the Swashbuckler should be able to dump Strength, but I don't think that's going to happen anyway. There's still Power Attack, not to mention combat maneuvers (unless you take Agile Maneuvers, too). I don't see a huge MAD problem with the class. In my view, you choose one of Dexterity, Strength, or Charisma to be your big stat, then you park the others around 13 or 14 for the long haul. Intelligence, Wisdom, and Constitution can all float somewhere in the 10-12 range.
So the replacement for firearm training becomes adding the higher of your Dex or Cha to your chosen weapon damage, on top of Strength. Strength is not dumpable, but it can be somewhat neglected. Conversely, the strong swashbuckler still gets a +1 or +2 to damage and does not obsolesce the Dex-based swashbuckler. Since this is per weapon, this slightly favors einhander or paired light weapon builds, but is not punitive toward rapier and dagger, and at higher levels, you can get both.
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The swashbuckler will still need a 13 str for power attack if they want to be a competent fighter. All full BAB melee classes need it. So you start needing a 13.Actually, Power Attack becomes a DPR loss fairly quickly when you have both Precise Strike and Dex (or significant Str) to damage. It's a good backup for when you're facing low AC enemies or you can't use precise strike, but it's not an actual damage boost in tough fights.
-1/+2 Power Attack just isn't a good trade off for a class that gets a lot of static bonus damage.
It makes the first few levels go better since Precise Strike takes a while to get rolling. But Dex to damage alone would do just as well or better at front loading damage. Unfortunately, Dex to damage only front loads your damage, it isn't enough to keep up at later levels. Precise Strike does a great job of keeping up at later levels. Combining the two puts the class head and shoulders above any of the iconics or pregens by early mid levels, and just keeps getting better. I really doubt you'll see both: It would be stronger than the CR math is designed for.
The class needs something to help it out in the early levels, it needs the option to combine Dex to damage with Precise Strike for optimizers, but it doesn't need both in the core of the class. And I would rather not see the designers sacrifice the class's long term capabilities in favor of a short term boost.
Being able to use Parry every round as a feeder for Riposte would be a good start, especially if they change it so that Parry doesn't take Panache but Riposte is limited somehow.
The issue of power attack is a fairly simple mathematical setup.
I haven't ever run these numbers, so this should be interesting. Lets see what the real effect of power attack is here.-1 to hit is -5% accuracy.
Accuracy affects damage as follows: (1 - (AC - Hit Bonus)*0.05))*Damage + (Threat Range*0.05)*(1 - (AC - Hit Bonus))*(Crit Multiplier -1)*Damage
To make things easier:
H = Hit Bonus
A = Enemy AC
T = Threat Range (aka 19-20 is a threat range of 2)
C = Critical Multiplier
D = Damage
So, [(1-((A - H)*0.05) + (T*0.05)*(1 - (A-H)*0.05)*(C-1)]*D
So, lets sub in the rapier with a swashbuckler,
T = 6
C = 2
So, [(1-((A - H)*0.05) + (6*0.05)*(1 - (A-H)*0.05)*(2-1)]*D
--> [(1-((A - H)*0.05) + (1 - (A-H)*0.05)*(.3)]*D
--> [(1 - (A-H)*0.05)*1.3]*D
--> (1.3 - (A-H)*0.065)*D
--> 1.3*D - 0.065*A*D + 0.065*H*D
So, we can compare, an attack with +1 to hit versus an attack with +2 damage knowing that A, T, and C are the same.
Using equal equations and solving for a value of D, we can determine if there is a point at which static damage is high enough to make +1 to hit more valuable than +2.
So,
1.3*D - 0.065*A*D + 0.065*(H+1)*D = 1.3*(D+2) - 0.065*A*(D+2) + 0.065*(H)*(D+2)
1.3*D - 0.065*A*D + 0.065*(H+1)*D = 1.3*D + 2.6 - 0.065*A*D - 0.13*A + 0.065*H*D + 1.3*H
1.3*D - 0.065*A*D + 0.065*(H+1)*D = 1.3*D + 2.6 - 0.065*A*D - 0.13*A + 0.065*H*D + 1.3*H
--> 0.065*(H+1)*D = 2.6 - 0.13*A + 0.065*H*D + 1.3*H
--> 0.065*H*D + 0.065*D = 2.6 - 0.13*A + 0.065*H*D + 1.3*H
--> 0.065*H*D + 0.065*D = 2.6 - 0.13*A + 0.065*H*D + 1.3*H
--> D = (2.6 - 0.13*A + 1.3*H)*(1/0.065)
--> D = 40 - 2*A + 2*H
So that is the equation for the damage value when power attacking is equal in effectiveness to NOT power attacking. So lets plug in some numbers and see where we are at.
Lets try these +10 to hit versus AC 20.
D = 40 - 40 + 20 = 20
So with a +10 to hit versus AC 20, you are better off power attacking unless your normal attack hits for 20 damage or more.
How about AC 20 with only a +5 to hit?
D = 40 - 40 + 10 = 10
And how about AC 20 with a +15 to hit
D = 40 - 40 + 30 = 30
So this is the deal. There are a few pushes here that can alter things at the high and low end of the range, but I didn't bother with those. This method does account for crits though.
And this is all basically to say that Power Attack is indeed, variably good, which makes sense.
A lot of the math that others show for this just says:
"if 5% of your normal damage is less than 2, power attacking is better"
but the math says otherwise. The high crit threat of the rapier does in fact seem to reduce the efficacy of power attacking.
Lets see... if we think about having an mean average of 65% hit chance (not unreasonable as a fighter) for all his iterative attacks, that would mean an average AC to Hit bonus difference of 8 (e.g a level 11 swashbuckler having a +20/+15/+10 versus average ACs of 23, certainly some will be higher and some will be lower, but its just to compare)
Then that swashbuckler will need to be dealing:
D = 40 - 2*(8) = 24
So 24 damage per hit on average.
So what is a level 11 swashbuckler's damage? Lets see, (+2 str, +2 weapon, +2 weapon training, +2 weapon specialization, +11 precise strike, and 3.5 for the D6 weapon die)
So that is 22.5....
Well, that is interesting.
So basically its going to be a bit of a wash. Power attack on the whole will probably be a good thing to have, but its inconclusive either way. using my example there of an average of 65% hit chance (note that this is with all iteratives, so that means a 90% hit rate with the first attack and a 40% chance with the last) the Swashbuckler is better off using power attack.
If your hit chance drops below that, then you are going to be better off without it.
I find a bit silly that Combat Expertise (or fighting defensively in general) hampers your chances to successfully parry a blow, when it should be the other way around. That is, have dodge bonuses to AC add as a bonus to your parry attack roll, or at the very least remove the defensive combat penalties when making a parry roll.
I really like this idea.
It could be a class feature of the Swashbuckler if Paizo wanted to add anything to the class. Alternatively, this sounds like a really good feat (that could be granted for free by one of the Swashbuckler Archetypes at the expensive of other class features).
Benefit: When using combat expertise, fighting defensively, or taking a total defense, you do not take the normal penalties to the attack roll for Parry attempts.
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Let's just wait for the next playtest guys, I think there have been more than enough suggestions already, and the issues we know need/will be granted revisions have been highlighted enough that we can hope they will be taken into account.
No need to continue filling with thread until the next playtest pdf unless we have playtest experiences to share (I don't, because as indicated in the first 100 messages, I got stuck way too many times when trying to simply BUILD a character).
By the way, I've seen a lot of playtesting including right off-the bat a lot of houserules and multiclassing. While this reflects the class's issues, I don't think that's the most valuable output for testing the class itself as it currently stands - not that I'm complaining for this input which is much more than I did myself since I didn't play the class myself, considering I couldn't even build a character to begin with.
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Minor adjustment: the swashbuckler of all people really should be able to use the gloves of dueling.
Minor adjustment: the swashbuckler of all people really should be able to use the gloves of dueling.
Hell's yes
Minor adjustment: the swashbuckler of all people really should be able to use the gloves of dueling.
It's an obvious option that I'm sure the Paizo Designers have considered. Whether it's a good idea or not will depend on where the class ends up after a few rounds of play testing. I'm sure the designers will use the Swashbuckler's access to Gloves of Dueling as a balancing factor and therefore I'll leave this decision to them.
To emulate the romance or fantasy swashbucklers of lore, they need to ensure a mix of Strength and Dex. Not all one. Not all the other.
If you want the flavor to match the mechanics then there needs to be a mechanical incentive to be balanced like that: balance that isn't used in any other class. Mechanically, they would need to be able to combine them then (you can add your strength to the attack up to your dex and your dex up to your strength) to make up for needing two scores.
Thematically... why are you of all people hatin' on Reepicheap? :)
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Is there some reason a swashbuckler should NOT edge out a vanilla fighter in damage output? They have light armor, limited resources for their class abilities, and (nobody how the cat falls, this is likely) an odd weapon selection. They ought to get something.
Agre, especially considering that precision damage won't always work and all their attacks are piercing vs. damage resistance (well, there is always the not so very thematic morning star).
1-The character CAN exceed his starting Panache during the course of an encounter up to twice his default amount (including the bonus from feats such as extra grit). At the end of the encounter if his Panache exceeds the default amount it resets to the default and all excess is lost.
This is interesting. It encourages a laid-back style where you build panache and then lash out viciously. I quite like it.
The current rules encourage you to spend points early so you can refill. This is nice, and alpha strikes are always valuable, but perhaps not thematic sinc swashbucklers are often seen as cool people who open up by feeling their opponent out.
It may have been mentioned but it just occurred to me, if they don't make Swashbuckler Expertise either a) Standard Expertise or b) Include a sentence that makes it count as a pre-req. then the class is screwed for buying Piranha Strike and anything else that has a Finesse pre req.
Now I've said it before and I say it again, Piranha Strike should be a published feat in this book if the only other place it is published is Savaranga - The Lost Colony.
Well, the other problem is that if you look at a lot off the feats that have Combat Expertise as a prereq... they also have Int 13 as a prereq.
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Well, the other problem is that if you look at a lot off the feats that have Combat Expertise as a prereq... they also have Int 13 as a prereq.
Simple solution would be to let the Swashbuckler use Charisma in place of Int to qualify for combat feats, or just his bonus combat feats every 4th level.
Or just let the Swashbuckler take certain feats from a list, like:
Improved/Greater, disarm, trip, feint, dirty trick
I mean, TBH the combat expertise/int 13 tax is pretty awful all around... I really wouldn't mind seeing a blanket change to those feats.
Matter-of-factly, if this change only applied to fighters and fighter variants/hybrids... that would be a great change too. The Brawler is in the same boat... the big burly face-puncher needs a 13 intelligence or he just can't figure out how to trip something effectively.
This probably have been discused before, but it makes me sad the the lack of options for an elf swashbuckler who wields an elven curved blade.
that sounds like a cool archetype....
That's because the 'flat bonus multiplies, extra dice don't.' has been the rule since the beginning of the d20 engine, while the 'precision damage' (as anything other than sneak attack) not multiplying is new, poorly thought out (what is the crit roll of 1d6+11?) and arbitrary (why does specialisation, weapon training and favoured enemy damage bonus get multiplied when they are just as much about skill as Precise Strike?).
Back in 3.5, I believe there was an example of a flat damage bonus which wasn't multiplied on a crit (though it's been too long for me to remember what it was). To use your example of 1d6+11, I would instead write it as 1d6+4+7 (assuming a swashbuckler level of 7). The first part (1d6+4) is multiplied on a crit, and the second part (7) is not.
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That's because the 'flat bonus multiplies, extra dice don't.' has been the rule since the beginning of the d20 engine, while the 'precision damage' (as anything other than sneak attack) not multiplying is new, poorly thought out (what is the crit roll of 1d6+11?) and arbitrary (why does specialisation, weapon training and favoured enemy damage bonus get multiplied when they are just as much about skill as Precise Strike?).Back in 3.5, I believe there was an example of a flat damage bonus which wasn't multiplied on a crit (though it's been too long for me to remember what it was). To use your example of 1d6+11, I would instead write it as 1d6+4+7 (assuming a swashbuckler level of 7). The first part (1d6+4) is multiplied on a crit, and the second part (7) is not.
In 3.5 the swashbuckler class got to add Int bonus to damage (it was called Precise Strike), and that was multiplied on a crit.
With the Dual Strike feat (which let you make a single roll to attack at a penalty with two weapons) it only let you add precision damage once, so Precise Strike only added once.
The only flat bonuses I can think of from 3.X that didn't multiply are some situations where a small amount of energy damage was added to a normal melee attack.
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Please drop the penalty on parry for small characters! Either that, or drop this bit from the class description:
Those of smaller races are particularly out to prove that the right mix of discipline and daring is the perfect counter to size and strength. They enjoy nothing more than to take down lumbering brutes and bullies.
That is just mocking the small characters.
Question:
Does the Swashbuckler proficiency with bucklers count as "Shield Proficiency" for the purposes of qualifying for Shield Focus?
Aside from the above points about damage, with which I agree, I'd like to see some more deeds and some more variety. Using improved weapons/shields is a big part of the pop culture swashbuckler, and it's completely absent from the class. I'd like to see a little more support for things like kicking over tables to stop arrows and swinging-on-a-rope kicks or whatever.
Even if the class is fixed in terms of damage output and defensive capabilities, playing a swashbuckler isn't going to feel like playing an Errol Flynn character, as the class stands.
That's because the 'flat bonus multiplies, extra dice don't.' has been the rule since the beginning of the d20 engine, while the 'precision damage' (as anything other than sneak attack) not multiplying is new, poorly thought out (what is the crit roll of 1d6+11?) and arbitrary (why does specialisation, weapon training and favoured enemy damage bonus get multiplied when they are just as much about skill as Precise Strike?).Back in 3.5, I believe there was an example of a flat damage bonus which wasn't multiplied on a crit (though it's been too long for me to remember what it was). To use your example of 1d6+11, I would instead write it as 1d6+4+7 (assuming a swashbuckler level of 7). The first part (1d6+4) is multiplied on a crit, and the second part (7) is not.In 3.5 the swashbuckler class got to add Int bonus to damage (it was called Precise Strike), and that was multiplied on a crit.
With the Dual Strike feat (which let you make a single roll to attack at a penalty with two weapons) it only let you add precision damage once, so Precise Strike only added once.
If they don't want Precise Strike to be multiplied on a crit, it should be changed from a flat bonus to bonus dice, for example: 1d6 at 3rd level, +1d6 at 7th level and every 4 levels thereafter.
(Personally, I think Precise Strike should be a flat bonus so it can be multiplied on a crit. I also think the Precise Strike should be situational, like if you move 10 feet, or if your opponent is flanked, shaken, flat-footed, etc. etc., with a different Precise Strike condition granted at 1st level and every 5 levels, with 2 extra ones at 20th.)
I'm all about the character having options!
Also, what if Panache was your Charisma modifier + your Dexterity modifier? Then there would be a reason for Strong swashbucklers to not dump Dex, but it wouldn't be crippling to dump Charisma. A swashbuckler that wants lots of panache would boost Charisma and Dexterity, which seems to go with the flavor of this class.
Also, we may want to compare the swashbuckler to a Dex-based paladin. For example, a paladin with Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical, maybe Weapon Focus or Dervish Dance feat.
I really think it just needs to be 1 + charisma modifier at the least just to avoid the awkwardness of having 8 charisma be the same as 13 charisma in terms of how it effects your panache pool.
Sure, with minimum 1 this would still mean that 8 and 11 are the same, but its better.
Personally, I think they could do charisma modifier times two (minimum 1) so that you get
charisma 8 = 1 pt.
charisma 10 = 1 pt.
charisma 12 = 2 pts.
charisma 14 = 4 pts.
charisma 16 = 6 pts.
Or it could be charisma score minus 10.
the current setup is just bad.
I really think it just needs to be 1 + charisma modifier at the least just to avoid the awkwardness of having 8 charisma be the same as 13 charisma in terms of how it effects your panache pool.
Sure, with minimum 1 this would still mean that 8 and 11 are the same, but its better.
Personally, I think they could do charisma modifier times two (minimum 1) so that you get
charisma 8 = 1 pt.
charisma 10 = 1 pt.
charisma 12 = 2 pts.
charisma 14 = 4 pts.
charisma 16 = 6 pts.Or it could be charisma score minus 10.
the current setup is just bad.
Except that the current setup is identical to the following:
• Monk's Ki• Ninja's Ki
• Magus' Arcane Pool
• Arcane Reservoir
• Gunslinger's Grit
I would propose that a better solution (and quite frankly, more likely to be implemented) would be to add additional abilities that raise the incentives to increase Charisma. For example, I though the idea you had about adding Charisma Modifier to certain saves (compulsion and poison) and my expansion on that (turning it into an increasing benefit by level) was a really good one.
This may have been covered previously and if I so apologize. My group is getting ready for a playtest this weekend on Saturday and the swashbuckler player approached me regarding something that I found utterly baffling as he was building the character. Specifically Opportune Parry and Riposte.
Both are granted at first level and take 1 point of panache and one use of attack of opportunity for the round. Unless the character has taken combat expertise first level, the second is useless to him since he won't have the 2nd attack of opportunity to ever take advantage of it.
They are already spending two panache (which is already a very limited resource) so this seems excessive to me. In my opinion, it looks like the swashbuckler should either get combat expertise as a bonus feat or riposte shouldn't cost the attack of opportunity (just the point of panache to execute it).
If I'm missing something, please let me know as this really threw me for a loop.
I really think it just needs to be 1 + charisma modifier at the least just to avoid the awkwardness of having 8 charisma be the same as 13 charisma in terms of how it effects your panache pool.
Sure, with minimum 1 this would still mean that 8 and 11 are the same, but its better.
Personally, I think they could do charisma modifier times two (minimum 1) so that you get
charisma 8 = 1 pt.
charisma 10 = 1 pt.
charisma 12 = 2 pts.
charisma 14 = 4 pts.
charisma 16 = 6 pts.Or it could be charisma score minus 10.
the current setup is just bad.
Except that the current setup is identical to the following:
• Monk's Ki
• Ninja's Ki
• Magus' Arcane Pool
• Arcane Reservoir
• Gunslinger's GritI would propose that a better solution (and quite frankly, more likely to be implemented) would be to add additional abilities that raise the incentives to increase Charisma. For example, I though the idea you had about adding Charisma Modifier to certain saves (compulsion and poison) and my expansion on that (turning it into an increasing benefit by level) was a really good one.
The big difference here, however, is that all of those classes get more for their "Ki" stat than the swashbuckler gets for Charisma. Something tells me that getting a Will save bonus on the grit stat is slightly better than a boost to Diplomacy rolls, but your play experience may be different. Let's not even bother to bring in the Magus' Intelligence stat benefits. Monks aside, those other guys do not have the stat dependencies that a swashbuckler has. And while switching to a system that would make tanking Charisma undesirable would only make the swashbuckler MORE multiple attribute dependent, at least it would be one of the two thematic stats. ALso, in my experience playtesting, it is very hard to use deeds with anything less than a 3 point max. Certainly if you want to Parry/Riposte and still have any hope of dealing damage. So a slightly new system for a slightly new class seems entirely reasonable.
Ultimately if it does not change Charisma is the swashbuckler dump stat--and the class is a failure.
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This may have been covered previously and if I so apologize. My group is getting ready for a playtest this weekend on Saturday and the swashbuckler player approached me regarding something that I found utterly baffling as he was building the character. Specifically Opportune Parry and Riposte.
Both are granted at first level and take 1 point of panache and one use of attack of opportunity for the round. Unless the character has taken combat expertise first level, the second is useless to him since he won't have the 2nd attack of opportunity to ever take advantage of it.
They are already spending two panache (which is already a very limited resource) so this seems excessive to me. In my opinion, it looks like the swashbuckler should either get combat expertise as a bonus feat or riposte shouldn't cost the attack of opportunity (just the point of panache to execute it).
If I'm missing something, please let me know as this really threw me for a loop.
You didn't miss anything. Without Combat Reflexes Riposte, as written, cannot be done. You can, however, try the even more unsatisfying option that the development team appears to be leaning towards and make Riposte an immediate action instead of an attack of opportunity. Or just give up on the whole thing and build a dwarf with high strength, mediocre dexterity, no charisma, and then wreck face two-handing a heavy pick... /sigh
I apologize if this idea has a) been suggested already or b) is really fscking stupid.
To solve the dex to dmg problem and the "who cares about cha" problem, what if precise strike was changed to say something like:
"the swashbuckler gets dex to damage up too the amount of panache she has unspent in her pool. This damage is multiplied on a crit."That could work out if panache was some deep resource pool you used sparingly like ki, but that really just isn't how it works. You never get more, and you're constantly spending and recharging it. It works better to think of it as like a dragon's breath weapon or something.
The idea of getting it back after a minute without critting things is interesting though. Derring-do would see an awful lot more use, and it would do a lot towards solving that "0 uses, 20 uses, 21 uses" issue. Make it less of a no brainer to always use a rapier (or dervish for a scimitar) too.
What if, instead of unspent panache, it was totall panache?
What if, instead of unspent panache, it was totall panache?I apologize if this idea has a) been suggested already or b) is really fscking stupid.
To solve the dex to dmg problem and the "who cares about cha" problem, what if precise strike was changed to say something like:
"the swashbuckler gets dex to damage up too the amount of panache she has unspent in her pool. This damage is multiplied on a crit."That could work out if panache was some deep resource pool you used sparingly like ki, but that really just isn't how it works. You never get more, and you're constantly spending and recharging it. It works better to think of it as like a dragon's breath weapon or something.
The idea of getting it back after a minute without critting things is interesting though. Derring-do would see an awful lot more use, and it would do a lot towards solving that "0 uses, 20 uses, 21 uses" issue. Make it less of a no brainer to always use a rapier (or dervish for a scimitar) too.
Then you just turned Extra Grit into a better Weapon Specialization. I like the direction you're coming from, though.
Then you just turned Extra Grit into a better Weapon Specialization. I like the direction you're coming from, though.What if, instead of unspent panache, it was totall panache?I apologize if this idea has a) been suggested already or b) is really fscking stupid.
To solve the dex to dmg problem and the "who cares about cha" problem, what if precise strike was changed to say something like:
"the swashbuckler gets dex to damage up too the amount of panache she has unspent in her pool. This damage is multiplied on a crit."That could work out if panache was some deep resource pool you used sparingly like ki, but that really just isn't how it works. You never get more, and you're constantly spending and recharging it. It works better to think of it as like a dragon's breath weapon or something.
The idea of getting it back after a minute without critting things is interesting though. Derring-do would see an awful lot more use, and it would do a lot towards solving that "0 uses, 20 uses, 21 uses" issue. Make it less of a no brainer to always use a rapier (or dervish for a scimitar) too.
That's honestly perfectly fine. Like many things about Fighter, WeapSpec is an insulting travesty that should've been dragged out back and shot years ago.
Heya, I'm not sure if this has already been said but what the heck why not?
Let the Swashbuckler add their dex to damage in addition to their Str Mod.
Now hear me out on this. This makes it so you won't dump STR as you'd eat the penalty to damage. In exchange you tone down Precise Strike a little or abolish it.
I'm sure one of yall could make it sound nicer.
I'm not too interested in the Swashbuckler myself, but it sounds like a good idea off the top of my head.
Heya, I'm not sure if this has already been said but what the heck why not?
Let the Swashbuckler add their dex to damage in addition to their Str Mod.
Now hear me out on this. This makes it so you won't dump STR as you'd eat the penalty to damage. In exchange you tone down Precise Strike a little or abolish it.
I'm sure one of yall could make it sound nicer.
I'm not too interested in the Swashbuckler myself, but it sounds like a good idea off the top of my head.
I suggested this earlier, aye. 3.5 had this available through the Shadow Blade feat and it didn't break any campaigns or outshine the strength-based melee at all. What it did do was wonders for making agile, graceful combatants viable.
That's honestly perfectly fine. Like many things about Fighter, WeapSpec is an insulting travesty that should've been dragged out back and shot years ago.Then you just turned Extra Grit into a better Weapon Specialization. I like the direction you're coming from, though.What if, instead of unspent panache, it was totall panache?I apologize if this idea has a) been suggested already or b) is really fscking stupid.
To solve the dex to dmg problem and the "who cares about cha" problem, what if precise strike was changed to say something like:
"the swashbuckler gets dex to damage up too the amount of panache she has unspent in her pool. This damage is multiplied on a crit."That could work out if panache was some deep resource pool you used sparingly like ki, but that really just isn't how it works. You never get more, and you're constantly spending and recharging it. It works better to think of it as like a dragon's breath weapon or something.
The idea of getting it back after a minute without critting things is interesting though. Derring-do would see an awful lot more use, and it would do a lot towards solving that "0 uses, 20 uses, 21 uses" issue. Make it less of a no brainer to always use a rapier (or dervish for a scimitar) too.
Based entirely upon various design team comments throughout these playtest boards, the design team would think that is the most imbalanced thing ever.
Hopefully I am wrong, but that is the impression I'm getting.
Most of those classes also add half their level to their pool, and can't get any back until they rest. Panache is really not like Arcane/Ki Pool at all. It's Grit with faster throughput - Gain it back often, spend it often.
Heya, I'm not sure if this has already been said but what the heck why not?
Let the Swashbuckler add their dex to damage in addition to their Str Mod.
Now hear me out on this. This makes it so you won't dump STR as you'd eat the penalty to damage. In exchange you tone down Precise Strike a little or abolish it.
I'm sure one of yall could make it sound nicer.
I'm not too interested in the Swashbuckler myself, but it sounds like a good idea off the top of my head.
That might alleviate the paranoid notion on the design team that strength becomes completely worthless if swashbucklers can add Dex to damage, even though I promise I'll still want a 13. I can understand the fear of adding both, however, as it could get a little nutty in high point buy, and belts that add to both Str and Dex become even better than they already are. Not that I'm against the idea, mind you.
That might alleviate the paranoid notion on the design team that strength becomes completely worthless if swashbucklers can add Dex to damage, even though I promise I'll still want a 13. I can understand the fear of adding both, however, as it could get a little nutty in high point buy, and belts that add to both Str and Dex become even better than they already are. Not that I'm against the idea, mind you.Heya, I'm not sure if this has already been said but what the heck why not?
Let the Swashbuckler add their dex to damage in addition to their Str Mod.
Now hear me out on this. This makes it so you won't dump STR as you'd eat the penalty to damage. In exchange you tone down Precise Strike a little or abolish it.
I'm sure one of yall could make it sound nicer.
I'm not too interested in the Swashbuckler myself, but it sounds like a good idea off the top of my head.
This is where looking at how similar mechanics helped or hurt 3.5 would help them. Admittedly they don't have a great track record of that, which is a damn shame since the two systems are so similar. Could save a lot of design headaches and grief.
This is where looking at how similar mechanics helped or hurt 3.5 would help them. Admittedly they don't have a great track record of that, which is a damn shame since the two systems are so similar. Could save a lot of design headaches and grief.That might alleviate the paranoid notion on the design team that strength becomes completely worthless if swashbucklers can add Dex to damage, even though I promise I'll still want a 13. I can understand the fear of adding both, however, as it could get a little nutty in high point buy, and belts that add to both Str and Dex become even better than they already are. Not that I'm against the idea, mind you.Heya, I'm not sure if this has already been said but what the heck why not?
Let the Swashbuckler add their dex to damage in addition to their Str Mod.
Now hear me out on this. This makes it so you won't dump STR as you'd eat the penalty to damage. In exchange you tone down Precise Strike a little or abolish it.
I'm sure one of yall could make it sound nicer.
I'm not too interested in the Swashbuckler myself, but it sounds like a good idea off the top of my head.
Its interesting in that their damage would scale fairly nicely with their level. So long as we continue to limit them to One handed piercing weapons it should work out fine.
If Panache becomes more worthwhile to put more points into Charisma, it'd go to great lengths into keeping your stats in check.
And it wouldn't be a bad way to keep up with 2handers.
Now we just need to work on the mobility issues.
Derring-do (Ex): At 1st level, a swashbuckler can spend
1 panache point when she makes an Acrobatics, Climb,
Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Swim check to gain a luck bonus equal to her Swashbuckler level. She must choose to do this before
she rolls. She also does not suffer the movement penalties associated with the skill use, I.E moving quarter speed while climbing.
I like the thought behind this. Parkouring up a wall, getting to move your full speed with acrobatics with a solid bonus on the check that might make it so it serves well even at the high levels of the game.
Other mobility fix idea:
Swordsman's Waltz (Ex): At (1st? 2nd? Certainly no later than 3rd) level the Swashbuckler may spend 1 point of Panache to move up to her speed as a swift action.
Other mobility fix idea:
Swordsman's Waltz (Ex): At (1st? 2nd? Certainly no later than 3rd) level the Swashbuckler may spend 1 point of Panache to move up to her speed as a swift action.
My brain wanted to call that Dashing Dash.
Silly brain.
Swordsman's Pounce?
Swordsman's Pounce?
Shhh, we can't let them know we're trying to get a pseudo pounce going.
Heh. It's another one of those, "3.5 did this already and the world didn't end," things, to be perfectly honest.
Heh. It's another one of those, "3.5 did this already and the world didn't end," things, to be perfectly honest.
Its a full 3 levels before the earliest class can get pounce!(Druid 6th via Beastshape 2)
Op! Everyone dips Swashbuckler!
I jest of course.
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Heh. It's another one of those, "3.5 did this already and the world didn't end," things, to be perfectly honest.
Its a full 3 levels before the earliest class can get pounce!(Druid 6th via Beastshape 2)
Op! Everyone dips Swashbuckler!
I jest of course.
Don't be silly. Eidolons get pounce at first level and a spellcaster companion.
Don't be silly. Eidolons get pounce at first level and a spellcaster companion.Heh. It's another one of those, "3.5 did this already and the world didn't end," things, to be perfectly honest.
Its a full 3 levels before the earliest class can get pounce!(Druid 6th via Beastshape 2)
Op! Everyone dips Swashbuckler!
I jest of course.
Welcome to the list of people on these boards that I love intensely.