So you have a whopping... ONE penache more than a dwarven swashbuckler with a charisma of 5.Yep. What's your point?
I didn't say you couldn't get better mileage while dumping, just that it's quite possible to have a good stat allocation for this class without dumping anything, and that a 13 in Str is not at all infeasible.
Remember, YOU are the one who said he needed Cha, and that's part of reason "the Monk laughs at the MAD". Are you retracting that statement now?
Why should I retract it when you're proving it for me?
So, what if we don't force the class to be DEX based, but we just have it as an option?
What if instead of free predetermined feats that shoehorn you into a particular combat style, you just got an extra bonus feat and you could choose that combat style yourself?
What if I wanna make a STR based fighter that uses the Deeds mechanic?
Is the swashbuckler the wrong class for me?
As currently written, this class is great for you.
So you have a whopping... ONE penache more than a dwarven swashbuckler with a charisma of 5.It has been commented on before, but I'd just like to reiterate that I see this as a major issue.
I see it as an issue, but not a major one. Remember that the Swashbuckler with a starting Charisma of 12 or 14 will likely boost it using a +2/+/+6 headband eventually, resulting in a (modestly) improved level of scaling of the Panache at the mid to high levels. It is also worth mentioning that the Swashbuckler has 3 (4, technically if you count Perform) Charisma based class skills that make them capable of performing the function of party face relatively successfully. Tanking your Charisma to a 5 obviously puts you quite a ways behind at achieving this. One of those Charisma based skills (Bluff) can be used as a swift action at 3rd level for a fairly useful debuff (-2 to one enemy's attack rolls = +2 to ac against that enemy).
Edit:
As currently written, this class is great for you.So, what if we don't force the class to be DEX based, but we just have it as an option?
What if instead of free predetermined feats that shoehorn you into a particular combat style, you just got an extra bonus feat and you could choose that combat style yourself?
What if I wanna make a STR based fighter that uses the Deeds mechanic?
Is the swashbuckler the wrong class for me?
If by "great for you", you mean that you can trade out 1 point of damage for 1 point of AC, 1 point of Reflex and 1 point of Initiative, then sure. You may have missed the comparative build I did to the one you posted Knick, but the Swashbuckler was ahead of the Sword & Board fighter. The comparative Strength based Swashbuckler ended up being 1 point of AC down for each point of damage, which is a very bad trade IMO.
By request, I've posted a playtest of Rhiana versus some elder earth elementals (replacing with fire or water wouldn't change the results, but airs are a pain). Rhiana eventually wins a flawless victory, but it certainly takes a while. Swashbuckler really wasn't any worse off on the elementals than her original (and currently canonical) form in the AP, with Aldori Swordlord levels.
I am of the opinion that a Dex 13 Swashbuckler who boosts Strength through the roof and a Str 14 Swashbuckler who boosts Dex through the roof should both be viable.Characters well rounded to the point of being Bowling balls do not do well in this system.
Having a secondary stat at 13 is considered "too well rounded" now?
I don't think I've ever made a Str based character with less than 14 Dex. Wait I take that back, one of my Barbarians was. But still.
And Str 13 is a very good move for a Dex based character. Lets you qualify for Power Attack, and increases your carrying capacity to a reasonable amount.
I agree with this. Power Attack is awesome, and being able to carry stuff is pretty nice, too. I would find a way to get a 13 strength on my Dex/Cha swash. I think the damage swing is too good to pass up. I mean, find me an archer that isn't better with Deadly Aim or a melee martial that isn't better with Power Attack. I can't think of one.
So you have a whopping... ONE penache more than a dwarven swashbuckler with a charisma of 5.Yep. What's your point?
I didn't say you couldn't get better mileage while dumping, just that it's quite possible to have a good stat allocation for this class without dumping anything, and that a 13 in Str is not at all infeasible.
Remember, YOU are the one who said he needed Cha, and that's part of reason "the Monk laughs at the MAD". Are you retracting that statement now?
Why should I retract it when you're proving it for me?
I'm proving your point of "the class is too MAD" by showing you the exact opposite, even when you're adding new qualifiers at every turn that further disproves you point by giving him dump stats to utilize?
Bizarro World is weird. I wanna go back to reality.
You don't provoke from the enemy that you Recover away from. So, you don't provoke AoOs against single enemies and rarely so against 2 enemies. More than that gets dicey, but by that point, Recovery wouldn't be as useful anyway.
I think this relies on assumptions about how enemies are played that don't often hold true. The enemy can take a five-foot step away to force the Swashbuckler to use his to approach, just like the Swashbuckler can; I see no reason to assume the Swashbuckler just gets to take a full attack and then five-foot away, while the enemy cannot do the same. Similarly, I don't see any reason to assume multiple enemies aren't surrounding the Swashbuckler to gain flanking bonuses and make retreat more costly. Finally, if the Swashbuckler is going to play keep-away, the enemies should move on and take out targets of opportunity rather than chasing the Swashbuckler around and ignoring everyone else. Unless enemies are intentionally left holding the idiot ball, recovery is either useless or actively harmful to either the Swashbuckler or his team.
By request, I've posted a playtest of Rhiana versus some elder earth elementals (replacing with fire or water wouldn't change the results, but airs are a pain). Rhiana eventually wins a flawless victory, but it certainly takes a while. Swashbuckler really wasn't any worse off on the elementals than her original (and currently canonical) form in the AP, with Aldori Swordlord levels.
Wow, I really wasn't expecting you to run that. It is good to see the swash could hold up. In one of my little tests at level 7 (using a CR 7 huge fire elemental--not solo), surviving the elemental wasn't that big of a deal for the swashbuckler--it was the rest of the party surviving the elemental.
Going back to your previous post, I could see why people would bang on the Core only stuff. Seeing as how so many people are going to be using agile enchants or DD in PFS. I have been reading the majority of your playtest posts, for the information and the entertainment value. Clearly, Grace having paladin levels makes her a bad example for the Charisma dump, so I sort of ignored that one. It does concern me, however, that the proposed Dex/Cha class has no major penalty for dumping the charisma stat, and can easily get by with a mediocre Dex.
That said, since I haven't posted on the individual threads, thanks for writing up all of the playtests! At some point I would love to hear your thoughts on Precise Strike and how it affected the use (or non-use) of other deeds in the arsenal. The more I test it out, the more I find my panache leaning towards one deed.
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You don't provoke from the enemy that you Recover away from. So, you don't provoke AoOs against single enemies and rarely so against 2 enemies. More than that gets dicey, but by that point, Recovery wouldn't be as useful anyway.I think this relies on assumptions about how enemies are played that don't often hold true. The enemy can take a five-foot step away to force the Swashbuckler to use his to approach, just like the Swashbuckler can; I see no reason to assume the Swashbuckler just gets to take a full attack and then five-foot away, while the enemy cannot do the same.
So what if it does? The swashbuckler takes her 5 ft move forward and full attacks. Then, on the return sequence, the swash uses recovery, forcing the enemy to use its 5 ft move to follow... and then the swash can attack and 5 ft move to her heart's content, using recovery each time the enemy responds to break the full attack sequence. It's not fullproof outside the realm of theory, but I have seen it work fairly well in actual play.
I don't think Dex-to-Damage is too powerful, but Dex-to-Damage + Precise Strike might be. Remove the latter and add the former and everything would be fine and much simpler (critical hits would work normally, instead of the extra math necessary with Precise Strike). It also would stop every Dex-based Swashbuckler from having to take 1 pointless feat (Weapon Finesse) to get yet another feat (Dervish Dance) to make the class look like what it should be.
The designers seem to be concerned about this class out damaging Fighters, which shouldn't happen, since DPR is all that Fighters have. However, since they chose to make Fighter one of the parent classes for Swashbucklers, half of what the class gets is some sort of bonus to attack and damage roll (since that's basically all Fighters get).
I went into a lot more detail on this back here, but no.
Even if you had dex to damage, as much dex as the fighter you're comparing has str, power attack, weapon specialization, same weapon, anything else you can throw in there, precise strike doesn't give you an edge. It works out to roughly the same damage values, with this rocky swinging curve. At level 1, the swashbuckler does a bit less, at level 20, slightly more... but only under optimal conditions, which aside from the obvious restrictions on precision and range include the fighter having nothing to do with his swift actions, the swash always using all her panache to power damage boosts, and nobody rolling 2 crits in the same round.
Meanwhile, the main thing the fighter has going is not no, nor has it ever been, having the best DPR. Being able to pile on the damage is something that every melee class is great at, and under optimal conditions, any of the rest do more than a fighter. A barbarian's outperforming that weapon specialization/training with rage going, but sometimes she gets tired. A paladin's got those awesome smites that do really amazing things, but she can't smite everything. A ranger gets an edge with favored enemies and terrain (and his pet contributing). A cavalier has horrifying mounted charges, but sometimes there's a ladder or something.
A swashbuckler should (doesn't as it stands, but should) have a slight edge on a fighter damage wise, because like everyone else, it's conditional. Assuming you're using precise strike, you lose it entirely against certain enemies, and you really can't use anything besides your rapier (or whatever similar weapon). The fighter, without giving up anything from his weapon of choice, gets all this extra weapon training stuff so they can sub in, say, a bow to deal with flying enemies. Or something with some extra reach, or even just something that does blunt damage. The fighter's edge is that while they're never the best damage dealers next to anyone else in their ideal cirumstances, there aren't any circumstances where they aren't pretty damn close.
Plus there's the feat every level, which is nothing to sneeze at, and armor training, which is the one actual really unique thing fighters and only fighters get. Have your cake and eat it too with a decent touch AND flatfooted AC, and shatter the usual ceiling of 18 AC from non-magic armor alone if you really want.
and this is a class that's obviously supposed to prioritize Dexterity anyway.Obviously? I do not think it means what you think it means.
Mechanically speaking, very little pushes a swash to Dex. Light armor proficiency, maybe? The ability to spend panache on parry? A few save DCs on abilities no martial character with a weak Fort save will ever live to see, that aren't that great for the cost?
Clearly you are still in love with the class description (which, I agree, sounds absolutely amazing). The rules, however, do not put a heavy stress on Dex/Cha builds, and I will leave you to sift through this thread for examples.
Well, there's the name, the description, the free finesse, the restriction to lightweight weapons, the lack of armor, the class feature to support fighting with just a rapier, the infusion of DNA from the class that gets the most from dex, and eventually, improved evasion. This is very clearly intended to be played in a dex heavy fashion. It's a failure of execution. Presumably reflex-as-only-good-save is the result of the same sort of logic but really, that one just murders the class no matter how you build one.
So, what I"ve learned from this thread.
1) The developers only want playtests using the CRB and 15pt buy, and anyone who posts anything form an actual game is going to be slammed for it.
2) Theory crafting is vital and massively more important than actual playtesting in a real game.
3) 15pt buy is 'the standard' in Pathfinder, despite what the CRB says, and anyone who uses 20pt (or god forbid dice rolls!) is playing the game wrong, including PFS.
I'll just bow out of any playtesting now, since I obviously can't do anything right for these purposes, as I play real games, with real people, using the rules in the CRB. Don't know what I was thinking that that was useful. *shrug*
Generating Ability Scores
There are a number of different methods used to generate ability scores. Each of these methods gives a different level of flexibility and randomness to character generation.Racial modifiers (adjustments made to your ability scores due to your character's race—see Races) are applied after the scores are generated.
Standard: Roll 4d6, discard the lowest die result, and add the three remaining results together. Record this total and repeat the process until six numbers are generated. Assign these totals to your ability scores as you see fit. This method is less random than Classic and tends to create characters with above-average ability scores.
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I'll just bow out of any playtesting now, since I obviously can't do anything right for these purposes, as I play real games, with real people, using the rules in the CRB. Don't know what I was thinking that that was useful. *shrug*
Sorry that you feel that way. I found your posts useful, and I hope the developers also think so.
If by "great for you", you mean that you can trade out 1 point of damage for 1 point of AC, 1 point of Reflex and 1 point of Initiative, then sure. You may have missed the comparative build I did to the one you posted Knick, but the Swashbuckler was ahead of the Sword & Board fighter. The comparative Strength based Swashbuckler ended up being 1 point of AC down for each point of damage, which is a very bad trade IMO.As currently written, this class is great for you.So, what if we don't force the class to be DEX based, but we just have it as an option?
What if instead of free predetermined feats that shoehorn you into a particular combat style, you just got an extra bonus feat and you could choose that combat style yourself?
What if I wanna make a STR based fighter that uses the Deeds mechanic?
Is the swashbuckler the wrong class for me?
Obviously, we have a difference of opinion, because I like that trade a lot.
Personally, I don't see initiative as that important for a melee class, and I would usually rather have the enemy come to me so that I get the first full-attack in and gain the action economy edge (exception being pouncing enemies). With a swash who has Uncanny Dodge, I see even less reason to care about initiative.
Though I see the value of AC, and it can be very effective if you dedicate a lot of resources to that stat, it still doesn't scale as well as monster attack bonuses. If AC was so much more important than damage I think you would see very different fighter and barbarian builds. They make the same exact trades. Being invincible is nice, but if you don't have the muscle to make yourself threatening you are just letting your companions get slaughtered. Even my clerics/oracles get in and hit stuff because the easiest way to "heal" the party is to stop them from losing hit points. So really, splitting skulls is just proactive healing! I'm pretty sure a smart person once told me that if something has 0 hit points it doesn't deal any damage, which is one more reason why the most popular melee builds are damage first and second, anything else third. The big fighter might survive taking a bunch of hits from the bad guys, but the rest of the group might not. Putting that dragon to zero before he gets another breath weapon off is priority number one--I don't care if you have evasion, the inquisitor and the sorcerer in your group probably don't.
As for Reflex saves, beyond damage there is rarely a penalty that removes you from the fight. Icy Prison comes to mind, but otherwise I can't think of one. Failing Fort and Will saves will usually prevent you from doing your job, so that big beastie is breathing down the wizard's neck while you laugh your head off in the middle of the room.
You clearly think otherwise, and that is OK. You build to last, I build to kill. In the end, it probably ends up pretty similar since monsters will die quicker and deal less damage my way, and they will die slower and deal less damage your way. It is even possible that your way is better in a one-on-one matchup, but I wouldn't know because I only play in groups--and in groups you have to think about more than just your own survivability. The reason I like the dealing damage route (besides the joy of rolling big numbers on damage dice) is because putting things down faster helps the party more than taking no damage and letting the monsters run amok in the party. The best battlefield control I know is killing things--like you say, they don't do any damage to the rest of the party while dead.
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Has anyone tried a swashbuckler against a Black Pudding?
It's a CR 7, and I think it would put a stop to most Swashbucklers.
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against anyone without spellcasting or a bludgeoning weapon it will stop
fighter who doesnt carry a club/mace?
an archer with....a bow?
that's like saying: well the monk is a good class but what happens when you put him against a Vescavor Swarm at level 5?
he gets eaten...that's your answer.
So, what I"ve learned from this thread.
1) The developers only want playtests using the CRB and 15pt buy, and anyone who posts anything form an actual game is going to be slammed for it.
...3) 15pt buy is 'the standard' in Pathfinder, despite what the CRB says, and anyone who uses 20pt (or god forbid dice rolls!) is playing the game wrong, including PFS.
The devs have never said either of these things, by the by. Just ignore anyone who says so.
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The devs have never said either of these things, by the by. Just ignore anyone who says so.So, what I"ve learned from this thread.
1) The developers only want playtests using the CRB and 15pt buy, and anyone who posts anything form an actual game is going to be slammed for it.
...3) 15pt buy is 'the standard' in Pathfinder, despite what the CRB says, and anyone who uses 20pt (or god forbid dice rolls!) is playing the game wrong, including PFS.
Yeah. I know the first one is not true. The second one is just a strange statement in general.
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Has anyone tried a swashbuckler against a Black Pudding?
It's a CR 7, and I think it would put a stop to most Swashbucklers.
7th level is the point at which swashbucklers get their cool, built-in bludgeoning attack. Also, they are really, really good at making Reflex saves to avoid getting their weapons damaged.
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So, what I"ve learned from this thread.
1) The developers only want playtests using the CRB and 15pt buy, and anyone who posts anything form an actual game is going to be slammed for it.
2) Theory crafting is vital and massively more important than actual playtesting in a real game.
3) 15pt buy is 'the standard' in Pathfinder, despite what the CRB says, and anyone who uses 20pt (or god forbid dice rolls!) is playing the game wrong, including PFS.
I'll just bow out of any playtesting now, since I obviously can't do anything right for these purposes, as I play real games, with real people, using the rules in the CRB. Don't know what I was thinking that that was useful. *shrug*
I was going to just PM you about this, but I'll say it for everyone to read so you know I'm sincere. I apologize if I have in some way contributed to frustrating you this much. I am assuming it has to be myself and/or Tels by the wording of your first point. It was never my intent to offend, simply to disagree. Looking back I can see that maybe my "sad panda (keeping it eastern themed)" line could be misinterpreted, and for that I am sorry. I make the sad panda reference a lot and the wakizashi discussion made me think "oh hey, pandas are from Asia," so I tried (failing as usual) to be funny, and now I see that could be taken as a slight at your game, which it really isn't. Or perhaps my language was too aggressive while framing my disagreement. It is very difficult to convey tone in text, but I promise you there was no malice or disrespect intended.
The only wrong way to play Pathfinder is a way that isn't fun.
The only reason the point buy thing is even relevant to this discussion is because, for the purposes of comparison, it is easier if everything starts the race at the same starting line. It has nothing to do with there being a "right" or "wrong" way of playing the game. Tels and I are sticking with 15pt because that is the expected power level for APs, and many more are going with 20pt because that is the power level of PFS. Neither is correct. Neither is incorrect. Neither in any way invalidates rolling dice for stats, which you are correct in pointing out are highlighted as standard in the CRB for the pathfinder game (I've been playing in Adventure Paths so long I forgot about that--plus, my group likes point buy so that nobody can get burned by bad dice rolls, but that is simply a personal preference to be decided by each gaming group and in no way a "better" or "more correct" option).
As to the second point, I don't think anyone on this thread is saying that theorycrafting is more important than playtesting, or that playtesting is more important than theorycrafting (well, the devs appear to be saying the second one). Please keep in mind that many of us here have playtested the class as well. I can't know for sure, but I also think that many of the people posting here have read a lot of the playtest posts because we really want this class to be awesome--I myself recognized yours by your description immediately from reading it previously.
As a final attempt to explain how I operate, I'll use MechE as an example. My disagreements with MechE, whom I think is alright people by the way he (pretty sure it's a he, VERY sorry if I'm mistaken) frames his arguments, are in no way personal. I don't agree with him, but that doesn't mean I don't like him. We simply look at things a different way and value different things over others. We are also both (borderline annoyingly) passionate about it--one of the reasons I like debating with him. I like to think he isn't meaning to disrespect me in any way just like I would never wish to disrespect him. Even so, sometimes the way we both write things could probably be interpreted otherwise, but I just remind myself that he is a passionate fan of the game just like I am. And so it is a similar case with you, mdt. My disagreement with your declaration based upon the sample size was nothing personal, simply my opinion based upon your post. I meant no disrespect. I was just voicing a different opinion, and I am sorry if it made you think yours wasn't just as important.
Again, I apologize if I have offended you. It was truly unintentional.
Yeah. I know the first one is not true. The second one is just a strange statement in general.The devs have never said either of these things, by the by. Just ignore anyone who says so.So, what I"ve learned from this thread.
1) The developers only want playtests using the CRB and 15pt buy, and anyone who posts anything form an actual game is going to be slammed for it.
...3) 15pt buy is 'the standard' in Pathfinder, despite what the CRB says, and anyone who uses 20pt (or god forbid dice rolls!) is playing the game wrong, including PFS.
FWIW, recommended CRB and 15 PB, as it helps minimize the variables. But last I checked, I wasn't a part of the Pathfinder Design Team, and if you guys hired me and didn't tell me, I'm gonna be a bit miffed.
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FWIW, recommended CRB and 15 PB, as it helps minimize the variables. But last I checked, I wasn't a part of the Pathfinder Design Team, and if you guys hired me and didn't tell me, I'm gonna be a bit miffed.Yeah. I know the first one is not true. The second one is just a strange statement in general.The devs have never said either of these things, by the by. Just ignore anyone who says so.So, what I"ve learned from this thread.
1) The developers only want playtests using the CRB and 15pt buy, and anyone who posts anything form an actual game is going to be slammed for it.
...3) 15pt buy is 'the standard' in Pathfinder, despite what the CRB says, and anyone who uses 20pt (or god forbid dice rolls!) is playing the game wrong, including PFS.
If they tell you they might have to pay you, much better for them this way.
Ugh.
Ruleslawyered.
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Well-constructed Math & Opinion
I o understand that Precise Strike does little more than compensate for the dueling combat style (which is quite possibly the weakest combat style in the game... Maybe only ahead of TWF with 2 different weapons).
But then again... I don't really care that much about damage. I'd rather have Dex to damage than Precise Strike because it's simpler, more flavorful and more reliable.
I don't want my full-BAB martial class suddenly losing pretty much all their damage because the enemy is immune to precision damage. I don't want the extra work of subtracting class level before calculating critical hit damage. Despite being basic math and incredibly easy, doing it time and time again is boring and annoying.
I don't need Weapon Training and access to Weapon Specialization. If I wanted to be a DPR King, I'd play a 2-handed Fighter, not a Swashbucklers. If I'm playing a Swashbuckler I want a dexterous character with good mobility. I don't care if my damage is that of a Ranger. It'll be enough.
(BTW, it's not difficult to create a Fighter that out-DPRs even a Smiting Paladin)
My problem with the Swashbuckler is that it fails to deliver what was promised. It's not any more agile than any character with Weapon Finesse, it has no more mobility than any martial class (Derring-Do is a joke), it's not a good combatant (horrible, horrible saves and MADness really hurt, but at least his AC is pretty good), it doesn't have any cool tricks that are not very limited and/or incredibly situational, it's not any more skilled than a Druid or Monk either, so it's not a particularly clever character either... And of course, it's pretty much incapable of actually getting the maneuvers that one would expect from a Swashbuckler such as disarm, trip, dirty trick and feint.
It's an Dex/Cha based character that is better off favoring Str and dumping Cha. Panache is so scarce, it's very likely that character will go whole gaming sessions without ever using it out of fear of losing Precise Strike.
Swashbuckler is not really a swashbuckler right now... It's a Fighter with less feats, more skills, awful saves and the ability to pull off a cool trick or two once or twice a day...
Panache scarceness, lack of mobility, no access to combat maneuvers, awful saves, precision damage, way-too-limited weapon selection, focus on Dex/Cha in fluff only...
Those are my concerns.
Not DPR or AC. I'm okay with Swashbucklers dealing less damage than other martial classes, as long as their damage is reliable and good enough to be a front liner. Unfortunately, it's not.
A Ranger, Gunslinger or Barbarian with Weapon Finesse is better at swashbuckling than a Swashbuckler. Hell, I'd not be surprised if a 2-handed Swashbuckler with Cha 5 who completely ignores Precise strike turns out to be a better front liner than a Finesse Swashbuckler.
So, what I"ve learned from this thread.
1) The developers only want playtests using the CRB and 15pt buy, and anyone who posts anything form an actual game is going to be slammed for it.
2) Theory crafting is vital and massively more important than actual playtesting in a real game.
3) 15pt buy is 'the standard' in Pathfinder, despite what the CRB says, and anyone who uses 20pt (or god forbid dice rolls!) is playing the game wrong, including PFS.
I'll just bow out of any playtesting now, since I obviously can't do anything right for these purposes, as I play real games, with real people, using the rules in the CRB. Don't know what I was thinking that that was useful. *shrug*
Generating Ability Scores
There are a number of different methods used to generate ability scores. Each of these methods gives a different level of flexibility and randomness to character generation.Racial modifiers (adjustments made to your ability scores due to your character's race—see Races) are applied after the scores are generated.
Standard: Roll 4d6, discard the lowest die result, and add the three remaining results together. Record this total and repeat the process until six numbers are generated. Assign these totals to your ability scores as you see fit. This method is less random than Classic and tends to create characters with above-average ability scores.
A few points in response to this...
Meanwhile, if it works out great at a 15-point buy, but then becomes too good at 20, the PFS standard... that's something the PFS rules can address. They already have a massive collection of tweaks they're making to just about everything for exactly this reason.
The other reason 15-point buy is a good point to test around though is that it reflects the average of the standard stat method. The average roll from 4d6 dropping the lowest is 12.24 according to this calculator I'm trusting because I'm lazy. 15-point-buy, flattened out, gives you 13/13/13/12/12/12. Just about the same result.
On the other hand, that's the average result. If you actually are rolling stats (and I almost always do in real games myself), you don't get to fine-tune it, you don't get to avoid low rolls, you play what you get. So for instance, rolling actual dice here real quick: 17 5 16 12 11 13. For some classes, that's a pretty terrific stat line. Converted to point buy math, that's 29-whatever the 5 is theoretically worth (call it -8 I guess). Still sounds great. If I was making a fighter, I'd probably go 17 13 16 11 12 5. Decent saves, awesome HP, plenty of damage, nice dump stat to eat that 5. Pretty great for a wizard too- 11 16 13 17 12 5 maybe. Heck, even a monk could do pretty darn nicely with that.
For a swashbucker though, that 5 is toxic. Put it on str, you can't hold your equipment. Dex, enjoy your 11 AC. Con? Fort saves were already killing you. Wis is out for the same reason. Cha, you hurt your panache (which isn't really an issue AT ALL right now but that's another argument). Int, you're down to 1 skill point per level in a class whose abilities specifically call for using a couple.
If I'd somehow rolled all 18s, after I stopped kicking myself for doing so when I wasn't really making a character, I'd see a huge chunk of my problems with the class going away (although I think you'd still really feel the bad fort save at higher levels). Even if I had something like 18 18 12 8 8 8 though, which would be pretty fantastic for some classes, and represent a point buy of 30, for this class, that would be terrible to try playing with.
20 PB may be the average for 4d6, and what APs are designed around, but it's not what most groups play at. 20 and 25 PB is a lot more common in my experience, which is why I think 20 PB is the best test to start with.
7th level is the point at which swashbucklers get their cool, built-in bludgeoning attack. Also, they are really, really good at making Reflex saves to avoid getting their weapons damaged.Has anyone tried a swashbuckler against a Black Pudding?
It's a CR 7, and I think it would put a stop to most Swashbucklers.
Keep in mind, that I'm pretty sure you don't get a lot of the swashbuckler bonuses on this attack (swashbuckler's finesse, swashbuckler weapon training, precise strike). As written:
The swashbuckler is considered proficient with this weapon attack. The attack deals bludgeoning damage, and gains a bonus on the attack and damage equal to the enhancement bonus of the weapon.
Focusing on "considered proficient with this weapon attack" and suddenly that doesn't sound like a one-handed piercing weapon anymore. Basically the "pommel" is the weapon--not the weapon. And so, since it is bludgeoning, the pommel does not receive the above listed class bonuses, nor utilize Weapon Focus: Rapier and other such weapon feats. Additionally, since you are not using the (in this example) rapier to make the attack, the resulting combat maneuver check also does not use any of the class bonuses or weapon feats. So unless you have Agile Maneuvers or a Str-based swashbuckler, that roll is probably not so impressive.
Not saying I wouldn't use it, but if I am correct on this (and I did ask the devs this question in a playtest thread but I posted that over the weekend so it probably got lost and unread in the shuffle of everyone getting back to work today), the attack isn't quite as attractive as it seems. Unless, of course, you are Str-based. /sigh
That said, Black Puddings are nasty to all kinds of characters of appropriate level. Those things are rough. Thankfully, your average level 7 party consists of more than just swashbucklers, so hopefully as a group they can all come up with an answer to a challenging monster that drops from the ceiling to grapple people and eat them.
So, what I"ve learned from this thread.
1) The developers only want playtests using the CRB and 15pt buy, and anyone who posts anything form an actual game is going to be slammed for it.
2) Theory crafting is vital and massively more important than actual playtesting in a real game.
3) 15pt buy is 'the standard' in Pathfinder, despite what the CRB says, and anyone who uses 20pt (or god forbid dice rolls!) is playing the game wrong, including PFS.
I'll just bow out of any playtesting now, since I obviously can't do anything right for these purposes, as I play real games, with real people, using the rules in the CRB. Don't know what I was thinking that that was useful. *shrug*
I was going to just PM you about this, but I'll say it for everyone to read so you know I'm sincere. I apologize if I have in some way contributed to frustrating you this much. I am assuming it has to be myself and/or Tels by the wording of your first point. It was never my intent to offend, simply to disagree. Looking back I can see that maybe my "sad panda (keeping it eastern themed)" line could be misinterpreted, and for that I am sorry. I make the sad panda reference a lot and the wakizashi discussion made me think "oh hey, pandas are from Asia," so I tried (failing as usual) to be funny, and now I see that could be taken as a slight at your game, which it really isn't. Or perhaps my language was too aggressive while framing my disagreement. It is very difficult to convey tone in text, but I promise you there was no malice or disrespect intended.
The only wrong way to play Pathfinder is a way that isn't fun.
The only reason the point buy thing is even relevant to this discussion is because, for the purposes of comparison, it is easier if everything starts the race at the same starting line. It has nothing to do with there being a "right" or "wrong" way of playing the game. Tels and I are sticking with 15pt because that is the expected power level for APs, and many more are going with...
Agreed. I was just stating 15 pt buy is the assumed standard and probably could have done that better.
I personally let my players pick the point buy and they always opt for 20/25 as it's easier to build awesomesauce characters that way. It's fine for me, just means I can put them up against tougher than normal challenges. We all opted away from 4d6 drop the lowest when two guys rolled stats with a 15 as their lowest (and two 18) while the other three didn't get above a 13.
Basically ended up a near TPK at first level and then we tried out point buy and never went back.
Swashbuckler is not really a swashbuckler right now... It's a Fighter with less feats, more skills, awful saves and the ability to pull off a cool trick or two once or twice a day...
I generally agree with everything you say, Lemmy, but I have to stop you on the "once or twice a day" point, unless you are dumping Charisma and are level 3+, the panache pool--while never as deep as you'd like--is refreshed as you fight, and if your rolls are good it is refreshed very quickly (I understand the converse is true as well).
Hell, I'd not be surprised if a 2-handed Swashbuckler with Cha 5 who completely ignores Precise strike turns out to be a better front liner than a Finesse Swashbuckler.
You don't need to ignore Precise Strike as written, since you can still swing a one-handed piercing weapon with two hands! Now, I don't believe that should be in the rules, and I hope the devs clear that up, but as of now, RAW, it is completely viable to swing a heavy pick or morningstar with two hands and get ALL of the bonuses.
Doesn't two-handing it count as using a weapon in your other hand? I thought that was the linchpin of the whole "Can't 2H and TWF with Armor Spikes" FAQ.
I was PM'd, so I'll comment.
I've been burned a dozen times, several times in playtests, and other times just sharing amusing stories, by groups of forum... well, I won't call them what I think they are, but let's say a subcategory of annoying poster and leave it at that. They would rather rip your posts apart explaining in exquisite detail how wrong you play the game, how wrong anything you did is, and how they are correct on what the rules are. I've grown so tired of this type of poster, that I just bow out of threads rather than deal with them now, because it's just not worth it.
-----------------------------------------------------
On playtesting...
4D6 DL is not a 'houserule', it's the standard for the rules. Yes, many people select build. (Personally, I roll 3 sets of 4d6 DL, and let everyone pick from that same trio, so nobody get's super duper stats while someone else get's low balled). But that's really not 'the rules', it's an optional rule. The standard is 4d6 DL, and to me, playtesting and saying only 15 or 20 or whatever points should be used is just negating a large part of the playtesting, that is, actual testing in play. As far as I know, every post by Dev's have stated that theorycrafting (which includes such things as building something and attacking earth elementals with it) is interesting, but actual game play is more important.
For those who didn't like that it was a duel, please poke the same hole in the theorycrafting 'attack a pudding or elemental' posts, as those are also just duels. I don't railroad my players, they had a choice between a full on fight with 3 playtest classes, a one on one duel, and a free for all. They chose, and I posted what I could in an effort to help. All the negativity about how that was not worthwhile really is just telling people not to participate.
I did not say the Swashbuckler was OP, I simply said they have a REALLY good defensive power from 11th on. And even if you do make a barbarian that's too hard to shut down completely, it misses the point. The point I was making was, there is absolutely no reason for the swash not to try to parry every attack after they get signature deed, unless they are outnumbered. In which case, maybe they ignore the first attack from each attacker, and then they parry all iteratives. Their parry is always at full BAB, it will shut down a lot of the ancillary damage. A lot of those barbarian builds that do massive DPR depend on things like biting (secondary natural attacks at the end) and iterative attacks to pump the damage. Shutting down those shuts them down. It doesn't matter if the person has blur and negates the Precision damage, the point is the swashbuckler can do other things (knock their weapon out of their hands, leg hits, confusion, etc). It's not OP, but it is something they are good at, and only works really well for a DEX build.
That was my original point, although it got missed by people dissecting my analysis because I 'did it wrong'.
By request, I've posted a playtest of Rhiana versus some elder earth elementals (replacing with fire or water wouldn't change the results, but airs are a pain). Rhiana eventually wins a flawless victory, but it certainly takes a while. Swashbuckler really wasn't any worse off on the elementals than her original (and currently canonical) form in the AP, with Aldori Swordlord levels.Wow, I really wasn't expecting you to run that. It is good to see the swash could hold up. In one of my little tests at level 7 (using a CR 7 huge fire elemental--not solo), surviving the elemental wasn't that big of a deal for the swashbuckler--it was the rest of the party surviving the elemental.
Going back to your previous post, I could see why people would bang on the Core only stuff. Seeing as how so many people are going to be using agile enchants or DD in PFS. I have been reading the majority of your playtest posts, for the information and the entertainment value. Clearly, Grace having paladin levels makes her a bad example for the Charisma dump, so I sort of ignored that one. It does concern me, however, that the proposed Dex/Cha class has no major penalty for dumping the charisma stat, and can easily get by with a mediocre Dex.
That said, since I haven't posted on the individual threads, thanks for writing up all of the playtests! At some point I would love to hear your thoughts on Precise Strike and how it affected the use (or non-use) of other deeds in the arsenal. The more I test it out, the more I find my panache leaning towards one deed.
I'm actually OK with what you lose if you dump Dex (though one way to discourage it would be to make Nimble increase the Max Dex of armor instead of just giving you +AC flat-out, since the latter is the main source of the Str-buckler's edge). But I fully agree that the curve for panache based on Cha is not good (1 point for anything from 5-13 is too wide a range).
@People banging on core only--yeah, I heard them, that's why I made the other tests too. But it's the answer to the (I admit rather mysterious without explanation) question of "why is he building them using all this stuff and then talking about what would happen if we took it away?"
I think the double Precise Strike's swift action cost is its biggest restriction. There's other choices you can do with that action (for instance, Pommel Swipe costs the same action and gives you another whole attack which possibly knocks the enemy over, plus you can make Pommel Swipe free but never Precise Strike). If Riposte becomes immediate, that's also going to change things a lot.
I generally agree with everything you say, Lemmy, but I have to stop you on the "once or twice a day" point, unless you are dumping Charisma and are level 3+, the panache pool--while never as deep as you'd like--is refreshed as you fight, and if your rolls are good it is refreshed very quickly (I understand the converse is true as well).
Perhaps, but then again, Swashbucklers are unlikely to have more than 2 Panache points before 6~8th level, when they can (maybe) finally afford a Headband of Cha.
And since Swashbucklers need Precise strike just to stay almost as relevant as any other melee martial class, they won't be spending their last Panache point either, so in practice, a Swashbuckler's Panache pool is always 1 point lower than advertised.
Parry & Riposte, for some reason, is an absurdly expensive combination, and it's not very good (See that -4 per size category? Yeah, that's gonna severely cripple the ability beyond 6th level). Derring Do is pathetic, Target strike takes a full-round action, Swift Feint is worse than just feinting the opponent and "double Precise Strike damage" barely makes up for not multiplying your damage on critical hits.
Dex to damage could easily replace Precise Strike and all its related deeds. And a Bluff-based Snake Style/Fang mechanic would be much more elegant and useful than Riposte.
Most deeds are weak, situational, very expensive or simply a worse and/or needlessly complicated version of a class feature the class should have... (e.g.: Why do Swashbucklers need Panache to benefit from Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge? Why don't they simply get this as class feature at lower levels? Barbarians get Uncanny Dodge at 2nd level!)
Yeah. I know the first one is not true. The second one is just a strange statement in general.The devs have never said either of these things, by the by. Just ignore anyone who says so.So, what I"ve learned from this thread.
1) The developers only want playtests using the CRB and 15pt buy, and anyone who posts anything form an actual game is going to be slammed for it.
...3) 15pt buy is 'the standard' in Pathfinder, despite what the CRB says, and anyone who uses 20pt (or god forbid dice rolls!) is playing the game wrong, including PFS.
Nice to have a Dev declare 1 invalid. :) A lot of people seem to think only 15 pt buy, CRB only, in controlled circumstances in a blank arena are what you want. And there's a very vocal subgroup of that contingent that very vocally criticizes anything that doesn't match that requirement.
I thought the rest was a very strange statement as well, as 15pt buy is not listed anywhere in the CRB as the standard. :) But it's been said several times in this thread by the very vocal subgroup mentioned above.
The linchpin of that, I believe, was the phrasing of the TWF feat
You can fight with a weapon wielded in each of your hands. You can make one extra attack each round with the secondary weapon.
...making armor spikes, not wielded in either of your hands, an extreme stretch for that feat.
As for wielding a weapon two-handed, you are still considered to have a free hand, lame as that may be. Although it is a good thing for clerics of Gorum, who would otherwise have a tough time swinging a greatsword around and casting divine power in the same combat if this wasn't the case. Obviously, a free hand isn't attacking with a weapon, so that is where the weird wording of the class ability comes into play. I highly doubt it was intentional, and I imagine they will clean it up. I think Lord_Malkov explained this more elegantly than I can a few pages back, and I'm sure a lot of other people can, too, since (believe it or not) I'm not the best rules lawyer out there, but that is the jist of it.
I'm actually OK with what you lose if you dump Dex (though one way to discourage it would be to make Nimble increase the Max Dex of armor instead of just giving you +AC flat-out, since the latter is the main source of the Str-buckler's edge). But I fully agree that the curve for panache based on Cha is not good (1 point for anything from 5-13 is too wide a range).
@People banging on core only--yeah, I heard them, that's why I made the other tests too. But it's the answer to the (I admit rather mysterious without explanation) question of "why is he building them using all this stuff and then talking about what would happen if we took it away?"
I think the double Precise Strike's swift action cost is its biggest restriction. There's other choices you can do with that action (for instance, Pommel Swipe costs the same action and gives you another whole attack which possibly knocks the enemy over, plus you can make Pommel Swipe free but never Precise Strike). If Riposte becomes immediate, that's also going to change things a lot.
I am curious how you interpret the bonus on the Pommel Swipe attack. If you scroll a few posts up, you'll see my take on it, but I don't think you get to add very many of your class bonuses to it. I may be interpreting this incorrectly, but it seems to me that Pommel Swipe is just another cap in the feather of Str-based builds.
I just did Rhiana deleveled to 8 versus two Black Puddings and I don't see the problem at all for her. What was the danger meant to be?
I love the light fighter concept and have tried for a very long time to make the concept work in D&D/Pathfinder. So this was a really exciting class to hear about. Couldn't wait to try it out.
Level 1:
This was awful... +3 to hit and 1d6+1 damage. I took Power Attack but since my to hit is so low I'm afraid to use it often. I'm a Rogue with no sneak attack and less skills. AC is 18.
Derring-Do was nice. Parry is a crap shoot. I can try it twice since I have a 14 Cha. I stop doing that pretty quickly. Riposte may have been nice, if I had combat reflexes, or more panache, ideally both. I haven't got to use it yet. Recovery has been my go to for Panache spending so far. Boosts my AC to 20 versus one attack, which is nice.
Level 1 of this class is absolutely awful.
Level 2:
I hit a lot better now that I have Weapon Finesse. +7! So I use Power Attack a lot more. That brings me up to 1d6+3... Damage wise I'm still weaker than a Rogue, but I'm supposed to be the groups heavy melee. Still sitting on an AC 18.
I still enjoy Derring-Do. It's flavorful and fun! Parry is less of a crap shoot, but it's still a gamble. I haven't got to actually use Riposte yet either, with my one AoO. I'm still using up most of my Panache on Recovery. That +2 AC is the best thing I can use it on. Got Bravery, so my Will save is still +1, but against fear effects it becomes +2. I'm still probably going to fail the save. Not that my Fort is better at +2. I am a little worried that going forward these are going to hurt me a lot.
Level 2 is better, but I still feel pretty let down by the class.
Level 3:
Bought Combat Reflexes because I feel like I need it to use my class abilities. Got a +1 Rapier (should have got a ring of protection, but selling the sword for half price just to buy another one later seemed like a poor decision).
I feel better about my combat role. Sort of. Hit at +9 (+7 with Power Attack) for 1d6+5 (+7 with Power Attack). So I'm finally more than a Sneak Attackless Rogue. I hit often, with about the same static modifier as other front liners, but with a pretty dinky damage die (I REALLY wanted to use a long sword), which I roll pretty center of the road with (averaging 8-9 damage a hit) which isn't the classes fault.
Still feel the same about all the Deeds. Precise Strike was a nice addition. It makes me feel more like I can potentially be a front liner, sad that it took so long to get here though. I'm annoyed it requires unspent Panache. I just bought Combat Reflexes to be able to use Riposte, and now I can't. All the other front liners get to have their static damage on all the time. Mine shuts off my class abilities. I like Menacing Swordplay, and I have been putting ranks in Intimidate (all the social skills actually). I use that now when I can. Recovery is gone forever since I can't use more than one Panache. I can potentially deal the killing blow now though so maybe it will refresh faster. Got Swashbuckler Initiative. Don't care. My initiative is fine without it. Nimble is nice. AC is at 19 now. Every encounter I dread a Will or Fort save. I should have bought Great Fortitude instead of stupid Combat Reflexes.
Level 3 brought me more into my role as a heavy hitting front liner. But it was a frustrating experience.
Level 4:
Put my point in Str to roll it over to 14. Extra point of damage. Dex is 18 so putting the point there wouldn't have helped me until 8. I'm the front liner, I need the damage anyhow. I got a Ring of Protection which brings my AC up to 20. I can get a Belt of Dex when I get a bit more gold (Maybe enchant my armor and get a Str one instead). Bonus feat went to Weapon Specialization (Rapier). I would have liked Great Fortitude but it's not an option. The Str boost, Weapon Specialization, and extra point of Precise Strike get me up to 1d6+9 or +11 with Power Attack.
Nothing new with Deeds this level. Just keep on using Menacing Swordplay when I can. Adding anything else knocks my damage down by nearly half. Parry is such a crap shoot it's just a waste of Panache. Tried a couple of times and it ended in tears (every single time it was successful the attack missed anyway). Anything that triggered a Will (even a fear based one) or Fort save knocked me out of the fight (my next couple of feats are tied up in getting Great Fortitude and Iron Will, that belt of Str is going to have to wait until after a Cloak of Resistance).
So level 4 was nothing special, just more of the same. I may as well be a Fighter really.
I don't know if I will continue with this or not. It has not been all that fun. I feel like I have to spend every one of my choosable options like feats and gold just making the class even work at all. Putting points in Cha was a mistake. Precise Strike requiring I leave a point of Panache to use it at the expense of ALL my other abilities is complete BS, no other class has to give up their class abilities to get their static damage bonuses, or give up half their damage to be able to use their class abilities. Sitting out fights because my saves are garbage is not fun at all. I have to pump Str to keep up on damage which is not what I wanted from the class at all. I wanted to be able to make my main stats Dex and Cha and neither of those is any better an option than it is on any other melee class. I will stick with my Fighter (Free Hand)/Duelist. It simulates this theme much better.
I am curious how you interpret the bonus on the Pommel Swipe attack. If you scroll a few posts up, you'll see my take on it, but I don't think you get to add very many of your class bonuses to it. I may be interpreting this incorrectly, but it seems to me that Pommel Swipe is just another cap in the feather of Str-based builds.
I would think you do not add Precise Strike with it, not Swashbuckler Weapon Training, but you do add all the enhancements on the weapon. That said, I never used it in playtests except the oozes just now because I was unsure of exactly how much it would do. Clearly if it somehow adds Precise Strike, it's nearly always a better choice than doubling Precise Strike damage, barring DR or something.
I generally agree with everything you say, Lemmy, but I have to stop you on the "once or twice a day" point, unless you are dumping Charisma and are level 3+, the panache pool--while never as deep as you'd like--is refreshed as you fight, and if your rolls are good it is refreshed very quickly (I understand the converse is true as well).Perhaps, but then again, Swashbucklers are unlikely to have more than 2 Panache points before 6~8th level, when they can (maybe) finally afford a Headband of Cha.
And since Swashbucklers need Precise strike just to stay almost as relevant as any other melee martial class, they won't be spending their last Panache point either, so in practice, a Swashbuckler's Panache pool is always 1 point lower than advertised.
Parry & Riposte, for some reason, is an absurdly expensive combination, and it's not very good (See that -4 per size category? Yeah, that's gonna severely cripple the ability beyond 6th level). Derring Do is pathetic, Target strike takes a full-round action, Swift Feint is worse than just feinting the opponent and "double Precise Strike damage" barely makes up for not multiplying your damage on critical hits.
Dex to damage could easily replace Precise Strike and all its related deeds. And a Bluff-based Snake Style/Fang mechanic would be much more elegant and useful than Riposte.
Most deeds are weak, situational, very expensive or simply a worse and/or needlessly complicated version of a class feature the class should have... (e.g.: Why do Swashbucklers need Panache to benefit from Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge? Why don't they simply get this as class feature at lower levels? Barbarians get Uncanny Dodge at 2nd level!)
Again, I agree with most of what you are saying, but I have to chime in and say that Riposte really is a lot of fun and very good. The only problem is that Opportune Parry is not either of those things. I'm 100% on board with paying a panache and an AoO for the extra swing. It is also exciting when the opportunity and the panache is there. Of course, as the pointless Opportune Parries pile up, leading me to using it less and less, and the panache is running low, those opportunities don't come around as often. I guess I'm just saying that I'm a big fan of Riposte, although I would gladly wait a few levels to get it if it means being able to hit the broad side of a barn at first level with a Dex build that doesn't start off as a different class.
Again, I agree with most of what you are saying, but I have to chime in and say that Riposte really is a lot of fun and very good. The only problem is that Opportune Parry is not either of those things. I'm 100% on board with paying a panache and an AoO for the extra swing. It is also exciting when the opportunity and the panache is there. Of course, as the pointless Opportune Parries pile up, leading me to using it less and less, and the panache is running low, those opportunities don't come around as often. I guess I'm just saying that I'm a big fan of Riposte, although I would gladly wait a few levels to get it if it means being able to hit the broad side of a barn at first level with a Dex build that doesn't start off as a different class.
1 successful attack (possibly at -4 or worse), 2 Panache points and 2 AoO for a single extra attack? I'm not impressed...
Swashbucklers don't make a very good swashbucklers right now. They don't even make a good martial class. Using Fighter as one of the parent classes was a mistake. It adds literally nothing to the class concept and its class features seems to be making the designers jump through hoops to avoid making the SB more damaging than Fighters, which in turn is really holding back Swashbucklers.
Argh... Reviewing the failings of the Swashbucklers puts me in a bad mood... I'm afraid my sour disposition with the class will lead me to be overly critical of it (it happened in the past)... I'll take a break and come back after I'm more relaxed.
As for wielding a weapon two-handed, you are still considered to have a free hand, lame as that may be.
That's what i mean though, that's what that FAQ was meant to clarify.
Wielding a weapon in two hands uses both of your hands. Essentially you're meant to think of it as a "Primary Hand Slot" and an "Off Hand Slot".
Your Primary Hand Slot is taken up by a one handed weapon. Your Off Hand Slot is taken up by an off-hand weapon, or a weapon wielded in two hands.
So what if it does? The swashbuckler takes her 5 ft move forward and full attacks. Then, on the return sequence, the swash uses recovery, forcing the enemy to use its 5 ft move to follow... and then the swash can attack and 5 ft move to her heart's content, using recovery each time the enemy responds to break the full attack sequence. It's not fullproof outside the realm of theory, but I have seen it work fairly well in actual play.
If I were GMing, I'd have the enemy follow the Swashbuckler to get its full attack, then just attack someone else the first round that wouldn't be possible. If no-one else is in range, have the enemy attempt a trip or something.
I guess recovery is useful if the enemy just mindlessly advances and full attacks a single, specific target, no-matter what. I just can't really see that happening in any game I run or most games in which I play.All the negativity about how that was not worthwhile really is just telling people not to participate.
I did not say the Swashbuckler was OP, I simply said they have a REALLY good defensive power from 11th on. And even if you do make a barbarian that's too hard to shut down...
Personally, I objected to drawing so broad a conclusion from so narrow a circumstance. I think it's fair to say that their defensive power is extremely useful in one-on-one fights against opponents who rely on successful mêlée attacks. That is what your playtest demonstrated, and that's a fair point. On the other hand, opportune parry is not a good defensive power against a spellcaster who targets will saves. It's not a good defensive power against archers. It's not a (particularly) good defensive power against significantly larger opponents.
Your playtest demonstrated that it was a good defensive power against a similarly-sized, mêlée-based opponent. I think that is perfectly valid and important feedback. I object to a blanket statement that it's a good defensive power, in general, though.I wasn't trying to say you played wrong or your playtest was useless, I was trying to say that it's important for one to be careful about how one presents one's findings. My apologies if it came off another way.
Any defensive power can be bypassed. Full plate and heavy shield are both good defensive powers, and they can be bypassed by firearms, touch spells, area of effects... it doesn't invalidate them as good defensive powers.
Improved Evasion is a good defensive power. It can be bypassed by fort/will save spells, archers, melee attacks, but it doesn't invalidate it as a good defensive power.
Just because there are things that Parry doesn't work on doesn't negate it as a good defensive power. There is such a thing as being too narrow in one's definition of 'good defensive power'. I don't know of ANY classical good defensive powers that can't be bypassed by a huge swath of abilities. That doesn't make them bad defensive powers.
So I'm running Skull and Shackles and thought that
Gotta say, makes a pretty darn threatening NPC now. At least more so than he did.
Had to dial him back a bit to make it so he wouldn't one round the average PC with some lucky rolls (got rid of Power Attack, and Agile, and Weapon Specialization, etc. and specced him more for inflicting conditions).
^Build slightly spoilery maybe.
So I'm running Skull and Shackles and thought that %^$&#*@ was pretty damn wimpy as a Rogue $!@# / Fighter %*(#. So I rebuilt him as a Swashbuckler.
... Currently level 2 in Skulls & Shackles. Please spoiler tag your spoilers.
So I'm running Skull and Shackles and thought that %^$&#*@ was pretty damn wimpy as a Rogue $!@# / Fighter %*(#. So I rebuilt him as a Swashbuckler.... Currently level 2 in Skulls & Shackles. Please spoiler tag your spoilers.
...It's a spoiler that a high level NPC is high level?
But whatever.
That you meet in the first ten seconds of the first part of the AP no less.
Several people have remarked on the minimum 1 panache, but the difference between the utility of having 2 points versus 1 is so vast, I can't imagine a vanilla swashbuckler build committing to working off only 1 base panache. Even if you patch it with Extra Panache that's a hefty price to pay on that neglect.
The difference between 2 and 1 is vast, yes (the difference between being able to use your ability once a day without losing a bunch of your "always on" Deeds and not being able to use it at all without losing them), but the gap between 3 and 4 is much smaller, I think, when you take into account the ways it is recovered. And the fact that to get that gulf from the get-go you need to invest in a 14 Cha at 1st level is...woof.
Free Improved Critical on a class where the best option is Rapier turns the resource from "scarce" to "probably always have at least a spare point lying around", even without taking into account the part where if you kill somebody you get it back.
Maybe if it were changed to 1+Cha bonus instead. Or even 1+2xCha. That way you can dump Cha if you like, and still get your one point, but someone with 12 Cha gets more benefit than you do, instead of exactly the same.
I think it's pretty borked that 12 Cha and 7 Cha are functionally identical here.